Is Irish a dead language?

deise go deo

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Yes, because Mongolot is the only other language Irish children could possibly learn.

There are more jobs in this country that require Irish than any other language other than English.

If you speak English only you have access to English speaking jobs, If you speak English And Irish you have access to more jobs.

cyclopath2001

del_c wrote: »

Originally Posted by del_c
In what way is Irish language revival comparable to Nazism? Or would you like to withdraw this slur?

It is only a slur if you imagine that a direct and equal comparison was intended. The original comparison was with national revival movements in general and how they stir up sectarian hatred.

You've seized on passing comparison and spun it up into an issue that you'd rather obsess on about rather than then engage in the real issue of how we measure the vitality of Irish today. I suspect that this is because you know that if we were to properly and objectively measure the true support for the Irish language and how the resources are being squandered, your state funding would be cut.

Name a daily Irish newspaper, paid for and supported by Irish-speakers?

deise go deo wrote:

There are more jobs in this country that require Irish than any other language other than English.

Links to online adverts?

del_c

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You've seized on passing comparison and spun it up into an issue that you'd rather obsess on about rather than then engage in the real issue of how we measure the vitality of Irish today.
Links to online adverts?

"A Passing Comparison" to the one of the most odious, genociedal, catastrophic ideological movements in human history, silly me to be so touchy on this :mad:

I've never shied away from dealing with any of your points, but you've taken 3 or 4 detailed requests to grudgingly distance yourself from what was not a relevant comparison. If you'd given a more direct answer and withdrawn the comparison from the beginning, I might have had more time to deal with your "issues".


As for "An Foinse", it is financed by both Sales revenue, and tax revenue from both irish speakers and non-irish speakers. had a subscription myself, but now I only look at free online content of all papers in either Irish or English, tight arse that I am: The Irish Independant, The Independant, The Guardian, The Times and The Irish Times

I do enjoy TG4 and Radio Na Life (partly state sponsored I think) and Lyric FM and Radio 1(state sponsored), and I also listen, mainly via Podcasts, to the excellent BBC Radio 4(british state sponsored, thanks lads); the very odd time I will listen to RNG(state sponsored). There's a good german channel available online called D5(state sponsored), which I use to brush up on my German, and you can't beat SWR1(state sponsored) on a Saturday afternon for the Bundesliga.

I find private sector broadcasting generally crap actually, though I do listen to Newstalk sometimes in the afternoon and TodayFM have the best of the "morning show formats" though I haven't tried Hector yet and I'm more of a Morning Ireland man anyway.

TV3, ITV, Murdoch Network etc, just don't do it for me. I accept this is a sweeping statement, but I genuinely don't think the private sector lends itself to producing the type of content that I like. No doubt you have a label for me, but I won't worry too much about that.

I hadn't thought too much about this up to now, but, in fact, I don't follow many privately owned media outlets at all, therefore I don't see any contradiction in not deeming it necessary for my Irish language media content to "pay its own way" as I don't require this of my english (or german) language media either.

cyclopath2001

del_c wrote: »

I accept this is a sweeping statement, but I genuinely don't think the private sector lends itself to producing the type of content that I like.

You'd think that if Irish langauge supporters wanted to assert the vitality of their language they would do so by publishing at least one regular periodical in Irish and pay for it.

The private sector caters to markets filled paying customers. A culture includes a market. If there is no market, then I suggest there is no culture and without a supportive culture, a language is dead.

The Irish language may not be dead, but it's on artificial respiration. Take the state out of the equation and then we'll see the true measure of support for the language. Can the language breathe on its own?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You'd think that if Irish langauge supporters wanted to assert the vitality of their language they would do so by publishing at least one regular periodical in Irish and pay for it.

Silly us worrying about encouraging people to speak Irish rather than setting up an newspaper.:rolleyes:

The private sector caters to markets filled paying customers. A culture includes a market. If there is no market, then I suggest there is no culture and without a supportive culture, a language is dead.

I was waiting for you to get to this, Irish dosent have its own Independent paper and as such must be a dead language, Yet another in the list of kinda dead arguments that has been thrown at Irish in this thread. Why is it that some people need to believe that Irish is dead despite all evidence to the contrary.

Irish is not dead, By the definition of what dead is, And no matter haw many different ways you try to make it look dead the fact is that it is not.

The Irish language may not be dead, but it's on artificial respiration. Take the state out of the equation and then we'll see the true measure of support for the language. Can the language breathe on its own?

Languages dont breath,:rolleyes:
They are spoken by people, There is no reason for the state to stop supporting the language as people don't want it to stop supporting it.

If you have such a problem with state support for Irish then do something about it. Get onto your local TD, Vote for parties opposed to Irish(oh wait there arent any) Run for election yourself promising to end the waste on the Irish language, If people don't care about it as you seam to think then surely they will see the merit in your argument

del_c

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You'd think that if Irish langauge supporters wanted to assert the vitality of their language they would do so by publishing at least one regular periodical in Irish and pay for it.

Well that assumes there is a homogenous group of Irish language supporters which would have a pool of common interests to support such a venture. The reason I don't listen much to RnaG is that it is a regional radio station for the Gaeltachts, a bit more interesting for me, than say Northwest radio, but with a lot of stuff not relevant for my daily life. I wouldn't begrudge it the Gaeltachts, as they are under enough pressure as it is.

I don't buy periodicals anyway apart from the Economist, and it would hardly be economic to produce a magazine of this quality,which has a circulation of a couple of million a week, even if every citizen in Ireland bought it. Any reading in Irish I do is generally done on blogs and places like that which are not state funded anyway, so you can breathe a sigh of relief. Don't really see the market for a fully privatised periodical in Irish; it would not enough for it to be "in Irish", it would have to be about Sports, or Photography, or Porn; Ireland is a very small market for this type of stuff anyway. Foinse at least provides material for schools and stuff to use in the classroom.

And as I said, the only Tel/Radio stations I follow are almost exclusively state supported, independent of which language they are in, so I don't feel I have to justify this to you anyway.

cyclopath2001

del_c wrote: »

Well that assumes there is a homogenous group of Irish language supporters which would have a pool of common interests to support such a venture....Don't really see the market for a fully privatised periodical in Irish; it would not enough for it to be "in Irish"

That says a a great deal about the reality of Irish-speaking in this country, the language is not involved in the economy. It's just being spoken for the sake of speaking it.

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That says a a great deal about the reality of Irish-speaking in this country, the language is not involved in the economy. It's just being spoken for the sake of speaking it.

Actually it says nothing whatsoever about "Irish speaking" in this country, but is about the reality of peoples habits and preferences regarding media.
I personally don't buy any newspapers or magazines (except astronomy ones) English or Irish language, and only read the on-line versions.
I would be of a similar mind as del_c regarding private sector media and think the likes of TV3, ITV, SKY etc are total crap, and watch mostly RTE, BBC, and TG4 if I watch telly at all.
My main viewing preference is watching documentaries on-line in any language.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That says a a great deal about the reality of Irish-speaking in this country, the language is not involved in the economy. It's just being spoken for the sake of speaking it.

Getting better though,

Gnó

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Actually it says nothing whatsoever about "Irish speaking" in this country, but is about the reality of peoples habits and preferences regarding media.

It demonstrates that Irish-speaking is a part-time activity.

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It demonstrates that Irish-speaking is a part-time activity.

In all fairness what planet do you live on??

del_c

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That says a a great deal about the reality of Irish-speaking in this country, the language is not involved in the economy.

It says a lot for your weakening argument, that you are willing to quote half a sentence of mine and use it to try and prove your point. If you going to quote things at least have the decency to include all sentence clauses.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It's just being spoken for the sake of speaking it.

---Not just for the "sake" of speaking of it, also for the pride, the joy, the love, the craic, the intellectual stimulation, the feeling of achieving cultural enrichment and understanding, the connection with our near ancestors, for the hairs standing on the back of your neck listening to a sean nós singer......though reaching the end of this debate also for the warm feeling I would get from the knowledge that if you were listening to me, you would be feeling irritated thinking - "he's only doing that for the sake of it / to annoy me / so the darkies (sic) won't understand him / to be elitist / to act like a bogger / to present himself as a hardcore republican / for the grant" (Tick as appropriate)

cyclopath2001

del_c wrote: »

---Not just for the "sake" of speaking of it, also for the pride, the joy, the love, the craic, the intellectual stimulation, the feeling of achieving cultural enrichment and understanding, the connection with our near ancestors,

It sounds like a nice enjoyable pursuit and certainly quite healthy for you. Is this how Irish exists now? Not as a langauge lived in by its speakers and integral to a Gaelic lifestyle, but merely as a skill?

del_c

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It s...a nice enjoyable pursuit and certainly quite healthy.....Irish exists now. ....as a language lived in by its speakers and integral to...lifestyle

Yeah, that quote of yours would sum it up nicely.

Sláinte
d.

Cú Giobach

del_c wrote: »

....though reaching the end of this debate also for the warm feeling I would get from the knowledge that if you were listening to me, you would be feeling irritated thinking - "he's only doing that for the sake of it / to annoy me / so the darkies (sic) won't understand him / to be elitist / to act like a bogger / to present himself as a hardcore republican / for the grant" (Tick as appropriate)

+1

cyclopath2001

del_c wrote: »

Yeah, that quote of yours would sum it up nicely.

You've no hard evidence then?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You've no hard evidence then?

To be fair, you aren't great on the evidence side of things your self, Still waiting for you to provide counter evidence to mine, All we have so far is ad hominum as to its credibility.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

To be fair, you aren't great on the evidence side of things your self, Still waiting for you to provide counter evidence to mine, All we have so far is ad hominum as to its credibility.

There's a well-reasoned critical analysis of Irish speaking trends here it estimates that the true figure for daily Irish use to be around 20,000 with numbers declining in the younger age groups. There's a link to an official survey which I have been unable to read as it's entirely in Irish but the critique says

The report attempts to identify the reasons for language decline and makes suggestions to stem this.

nuac

The study Cyclopath refers to makes sad reading.

Up to those of us who would like Irish to survive to increase our use of it.

As I have already suggested on an earlier post, something like the old Fáinne scheme is needed so that Irish speakers could recognise each other.

Also all public offices should be encouraged to have Irish speakers available to deal with calls in Irish - not necessarily to be manning the phone lines all day but to be available to take a call in Irish.

senordingdong

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Would people be obliged to change their personal names? And what of towns that don't want to change their names? Would you impose your cultural revolution on them?

No, changing names would be ridiculous.

oterra

Irish is a language that will always struggle. I myself went through the gaelscoil system and had no regrets. I feel it gave me a better insight into the Irish culture and heritage that I may not have got in mainstream English schools. I feel the level of education in the gaelscoil or maybe the teaching methods are at a higher level. I went to Colsiste Eoin/Iosagain which always ranks amongst the top schools for grades. Why is this?
Primary level gaelscoil are now extremely difficult to get a place these days, so therefore in my opinion the Irish language is certainly not dead, possibly struggles in certain areas!

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

There's a well-reasoned critical analysis of Irish speaking trends here it estimates that the true figure for daily Irish use to be around 20,000 with numbers declining in the younger age groups.

It says 20,000 Native speakers, Ie just under three times the average for a language world wide.

Daily speakers is around 50,000.

At least we have some thing now, Its unfortunate that things have gotten this bad, But that is why an effort is needed to reverse the process, It wont happen by its self, Its hardly supprising that many people dont feel inclined to speak Irish though, Concidering the level of negativity from some about the language. With some going as far as saying that if they heard someone speaking Irish they would avoid them in future.:rolleyes:

LordSutch

deise go deo wrote: »

It says 20,000 Native speakers, Ie just under three times the average for a language world wide.

Daily speakers is around 50,000.

At least we have some thing now, Its unfortunate that things have gotten this bad, But that is why an effort is needed to reverse the process, It wont happen by its self, Its hardly supprising that many people dont feel inclined to speak Irish though, Concidering the level of negativity from some about the language. With some going as far as saying that if they heard someone speaking Irish they would avoid them in future.:rolleyes:

An awful lot of the negativity comes from the enforced teaching of a language that (possibly) has little or no connection with young peoples lives. I personally know some old schoolmates who still hate the language because of the methods of mandatory infliction (late 70s/early 80s), the "stick" method (or threat of) beating the language into us failed miserably, and needless to say this didn't help us love Irish, and it probably just created yet another generation of negativity

deise go deo

LordSutch wrote: »

An awful lot of the negativity comes from the enforced teaching of a language that (possibly) has little or no connection with young peoples lives. I personally know some old schoolmates who still hate the language because of the methods of mandatory infliction (late 70s/early 80s), the "stick" method (or threat of) beating the language into us failed miserably, and needless to say this didn't help us love Irish, and it probably just created yet another generation of negativity

No argument here, Teaching of Irish in the past was terrible, It did more to hinder learners of Irish than promote a love for it, However Cumpulsory status and the 'Stick' Method =/= equal, I dont want the draconian teaching practices of the past, Those methods have failed, I think however it is Both how it is tought and what is tought that have failed, Not that it is tought.

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

No argument here, Teaching of Irish in the past was terrible, It did more to hinder learners of Irish than promote a love for it, However Cumpulsory status and the 'Stick' Method =/= equal, I dont want the draconian teaching practices of the past, Those methods have failed, I think however it is Both how it is tought and what is tought that have failed, Not that it is tought.

Whenever I read posts like this one regarding the Irish language, it conjures up the image in my mind of a clueless general who sincerely believes that he can win a war simply by using better tactics. He never questions why the war is being fought in the first place, or why the people he claims to be fighting for aren't interested in his version of freedom and democracy.

Dionysus

MysticalRain wrote: »

Whenever I read posts like this one regarding the Irish language, it conjures up the image in my mind of a clueless general who sincerely believes that he can win a war simply by using better tactics. He never questions why the war is being fought in the first place, or why the people he claims to be fighting for aren't interested in his version of freedom and democracy.

Perhaps you ought to read some more - and there I'm sure you'll find many, many tracts advocating forcing the English language down the throats of Irish people. You'll find testimonies of it being forced upon Irish schoolchildren in the latter half of the 19th century, and you'll find contemporary demands that Irish speakers conduct their business with this state in this new language, English, which has been the dominant language here since the 19th century, rather than in their own language, which has been the dominant language here for well over a millennium.

It's odd, but not particularly surprising, how this rather germane matter of forced English has been obliterated from the knowledge-well of the anti-Irish lobby.

And no recognition - heaven forfend an apology - from the supporters (like you) of English language monolingualism in Ireland on this issue either.

eddyc

Dionysus wrote: »

Perhaps you ought to read some more - and there I'm sure you'll find many, many tracts advocating forcing the English language down the throats of Irish people. You'll find testimonies of it being forced upon Irish schoolchildren in the latter half of the 19th century, and you'll find contemporary demands that Irish speakers conduct their business with this state in this new language, English, which has been the dominant language here since the 19th century, rather than in their own language, which has been the dominant language here for well over a millennium.

It's odd, but not particularly surprising, how this rather germane matter of forced English has been obliterated from the knowledge-well of the anti-Irish lobby.

And no recognition - heaven forfend an apology - from the supporters (like you) of English language monolingualism in Ireland on this issue either.

If its ok to condemn English being forced on a population of people who speak a different language, the same can be said for forcing everyone to learn Irish.

MysticalRain

Dionysus wrote: »

Perhaps you ought to read some more - and there I'm sure you'll find many, many tracts advocating forcing the English language down the throats of Irish people. You'll find testimonies of it being forced upon Irish schoolchildren in the latter half of the 19th century, and you'll find contemporary demands that Irish speakers conduct their business with this state in this new language, English, which has been the dominant language here since the 19th century, rather than in their own language, which has been the dominant language here for well over a millennium.

It's odd, but not particularly surprising, how this rather germane matter of forced English has been obliterated from the knowledge-well of the anti-Irish lobby.

And no recognition - heaven forfend an apology - from the supporters (like you) of English language monolingualism in Ireland on this issue either.

Just a few points....

English hasn't been "forced down the throats" of of the people here in the last 150 years or so, so that is hardly of any relevance today. Besides, adopting the English language was a free choice for most Irish people at the time, and during the years since then.

I don't see what I have to apologize for seeing as I wasn't around myself 150 years ago opposing the use of Irish then, nor do I support "English language monolingualism". I happen to believe that a multilingual workforce would be a great economic benefit to the country. I just happen to believe that Irish should be an optional subject on the school curriculum. Neither does it deserve blank cheque support from the state, especially in the current economic circumstances.

cyclopath2001

Dionysus wrote: »

It's odd, but not particularly surprising, how this rather germane matter of forced English has been obliterated from the knowledge-well of the anti-Irish lobby..

What anti-Irish lobby? Who has said that Irish language enthusiasts should not be allowed to enjoy their hobby? I suppose by 'anti-Irish', you really mean anyone who does not immediately offer a blank cheque when the Irish lobby makes its demands?

deise go deo

What anti-Irish lobby? Who has said that Irish language enthusiasts should not be allowed to enjoy their hobby? I suppose by 'anti-Irish', you really mean anyone who does not immediately offer a blank cheque when the Irish lobby makes its demands?

You are the one who wants Irish banned in the Education System and for Native Irish speakers to be forced to use English when dealing with the state.


The Irish language is the First national language in the constitution, The state is obliged to support the Language. If you are against the state supporting the language then campaign for there to be a referendum to remove the status of Irish in the Constitution. Surely, If people are as disinterested in Irish as you would have us believe then they will see the Logic in your argument?