Is Irish a dead language?

gbee · 28-10-2010 11:56am

deise go deo wrote: »

Surely, If people are as disinterested in Irish as you would have us believe then they will see the Logic in your argument?

They wouldn't vote, anything that the Irish are disinterested in they don't vote.

It's only when you have say a 75% majority vote for acceptance and not a 1 vote majority and then only when you have say 75% of votes casts do you really have a majority.

The problem in this country is something like this; 75% of people disagree with something: 25% cast a vote: 20% of that vote was by the people who wanted the item passed. But that leaves 75% of people dissatisfied.

We need a radical change and perhaps compulsory voting.

cyclopath2001 · 28-10-2010 7:33pm

deise go deo wrote: »

You are the one who wants Irish banned in the Education System

Quote please?

deise go deo wrote: »

and for Native Irish speakers to be forced to use English when dealing with the state.

There are only a few of them, they speak English perfectly so it would be nice if they could save this cash-strapped country some money by using the same language as the majority.

deise go deo wrote: »

The Irish language is the First national language in the constitution, The state is obliged to support the Language.

A constitutional delusion. We all know that English is de facto the first language.

deise go deo wrote: »

If you are against the state supporting the language then campaign for there to be a referendum to remove the status of Irish in the Constitution.

So, you and your tiny minority of Irish-speakers hold what you have...not an inch..

deise go deo wrote: »

Surely, If people are as disinterested in Irish as you would have us believe then they will see the Logic in your argument?

If people were really interested in Irish they would speak it.

deise go deo · 29-10-2010 2:55am

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Quote please?

''Enjoy your hobby by all means, but pay for it yourself'' Your words no?

There are only a few of them, they speak English perfectly so it would be nice if they could save this cash-strapped country some money by using the same language as the majority.

So they should be forced to speak English?

A constitutional delusion. We all know that English is de facto the first language.

The Constution voted on and accepted by the Irish people. Irish Is the First national Language, And is so because Irish people voted it to be. As such the state is obliged to support Irish, If you think things have changed and people no longer want Irish to be the First national language with the state support that Entails then campaign to have it changed.

So, you and your tiny minority of Irish-speakers hold what you have...not an inch..

What?

If people were really interested in Irish they would speak it.

It would help if they could. If they were thought properly in the first place to the level that they could hold a conversation do you think people would still 'Choose' not to? People I have met who picked up enough Irish in School to be able to hold a conversation never had a problem doing so if I spoke Irish with them.

cyclopath2001 · 29-10-2010 5:28pm

deise go deo wrote: »

''Enjoy your hobby by all means, but pay for it yourself'' Your words no?

Yes, mine. Do you see the words 'ban Irish from schools' anywhere in that sentence?

deise go deo wrote: »

So they should be forced to speak English?

Don't be absurd. They already speak English.

deise go deo wrote: »

The Constution voted on and accepted by the Irish people. Irish Is the First national Language....As such the state is obliged to support Irish

Ah yes, you hold on fast to that piece of paper and the sense of entitlement it gives you. But is it right that 'support' should involve forcing the language on children who don't wish to speak it?

deise go deo wrote: »

It would help if they could. If they were thought properly in the first place to the level that they could hold a conversation do you think people would still 'Choose' not to?

There's something very revealing in your Freudian slip of saying that people should be 'thought' Irish rather than 'taught'. It implies that you think non-Irish speakers suffer from a cognitive defect.

The issue is not how well Irish is taught, but whether or not people should be forced to learn it, no matter how nice the teacher.

Cú Giobach · 29-10-2010 6:02pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

There's something very revealing in your Freudian slip of saying that people should be 'thought' Irish rather than 'taught'. It implies that you think non-Irish speakers suffer from a cognitive defect.

Wow!!

Your irrationality knows no bounds.

Don't be absurd. They already speak English.

If an Irish speaker wants to do business with the state through Irish they can and have every right to, this is a sign of a democratic country that respects its minorities. If you don't like that tough sh*t.
If you were part of a minority you would be glad to live in such a country.

Your attitudes towards the Irish language and culture are those of a rabid anti-Irish extremist, the type of attitudes that are usually looked on with disdain my most decent people when directed at any particular racial, cultural, religious or ethnic group.
It is this type of intolerance that causes and has caused so much conflict on this planet for most of human history, and the sooner such people die out like the dinosaurs they are, the better.

cyclopath2001 · 29-10-2010 7:09pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

If an Irish speaker wants to do business with the state through Irish they can and have every right to, this is a sign of a democratic country that respects its minorities. If you don't like that tough sh*t.

This being your missed opportunity to make a contribution to national recovery at no financial cost to yourself. An 'up yours' from the Irish Cultural elite to the less fortunate.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Your attitudes towards the Irish language and culture are those of a rabid anti-Irish extremist, the type of attitudes that are usually looked on with disdain my most decent people when directed at any particular racial, cultural, religious or ethnic group.
It is this type of intolerance that causes and has caused so much conflict on this planet for most of human history, and the sooner such people die out like the dinosaurs they are, the better.

So, I'm an English-speaking Irish person, descended from many generations of Irish people, a member of the majority English-speaking population of this country and you say I'm an anti-Irish extremest, just because I think that expenditure on Irish language should be measured and cost-effective? Bring on the auditors, I say.

Cú Giobach · 29-10-2010 10:13pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This being your missed opportunity to make a contribution to national recovery at no financial cost to yourself. An 'up yours' from the Irish Cultural elite to the less fortunate.

What a load of crap.
I see you are now obsessing here and elsewhere that money spent on the language if diverted would automatically go to the starving masses, wow

why don't you join the rest of us here in the real world, it's not a bad place.
Why don't you post the government expenditure for say, the last year, and we can all judge what was necessary and what could have been cut to help the less fortunate.

So, I'm an English-speaking Irish person, descended from many generations of Irish people, a member of the majority English-speaking population of this country and you say I'm an anti-Irish extremest, just because I think that expenditure on Irish language should be measured and cost-effective? Bring on the auditors, I say.

No, because of your attitude towards the language and comments you have made in another thread not related to the language, and your attitude towards people who have a different view of Irish culture and language than you do.
You see even your little jibe about a "cultural elite" shows your attitude towards someone who does nothing more than have an interest in the Irish language and culture. You made my point.

Sardonicat · 29-10-2010 10:21pm

deise go deo wrote: »

You are the one who wants Irish banned in the Education System and for Native Irish speakers to be forced to use English when dealing with the state.

The Irish language is the First national language in the constitution, The state is obliged to support the Language. If you are against the state supporting the language then campaign for there to be a referendum to remove the status of Irish in the Constitution. Surely, If people are as disinterested in Irish as you would have us believe then they will see the Logic in your argument?

What, people who speak English fluently and have no problem communicating in English should be forced to use English, the majority language of the country when communicating with the state? Why, that's akin to slavery! Wonder if the foreign media they consume is overdubbed overdubbed in Irish? Someone get onto Sky, this is a disgrace! People who can speak English being forced to use it against their will! Horror!

cyclopath2001 · 29-10-2010 10:28pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Why don't you post the government expenditure for say, the last year.....

How about we look at the cost of teaching millions of kids Irish, and how after many decades, a tiny proportion of the population is fluent in the language? Let's stop wasting money, it's not achieving anything.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

why don't you join the rest of us here in the real world

You're the one who wants 4 million people to change the language they speak. Think about it.

Cú Giobach · 29-10-2010 10:37pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

How about we look at the cost of teaching millions of kids Irish, and how after many decades, a tiny proportion of the population is fluent in the language? Let's stop wasting money, it's not achieving anything.

It's annoying people like you, worth every penny.

You're the one who wants 4 million people to change the language they speak. Think about it.

I would be most entertained if you could show where I said or even implied such a thing.
Digging yourself deeper into your little mire of intolerance again.

eddyc · 29-10-2010 11:36pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

No, because of your attitude towards the language and comments you have made in another thread not related to the language, and your attitude towards people who have a different view of Irish culture and language than you do.

The policy of compulsory Irish in schools goes against people having different views of Irish culture, it assumes that we all take an interest in the language which we obviously don't otherwise we wouldn't have to learn it as school in the first place.
And on the topic of official languages, the inclusion of Irish as the first official language in the constitution was wrong. There should be no official language, or if there is going to be one, let there be one, and the one that most people here speak. Would it really be that difficult to conduct official business through one language, are the Irish supporters that petty?

Iwasfrozen · 29-10-2010 11:40pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You're the one who wants 4 million people to change the language they speak. Think about it.

Actually, 6.2 million.

cyclopath2001 · 30-10-2010 8:49am

Cú Giobach wrote: »

It's annoying people like you, worth every penny......I would be most entertained if you could show where I said or even implied such a thing.

OK, so you don't want everyone to speak Irish, but you do want to annoy them by forcing them to learn it?

Cú Giobach · 30-10-2010 9:33am

eddyc wrote: »

And on the topic of official languages, the inclusion of Irish as the first official language in the constitution was wrong. There should be no official language, or if there is going to be one, let there be one, and the one that most people here speak. Would it really be that difficult to conduct official business through one language, are the Irish supporters that petty?

If there are two or more languages in a country that country has 2 or more official languages, this is common policy throughout Europe and the world.
This developed along with religious and ethnic tolerance and is part of what we call democracy. If you don't like that why are you living in a democratic country?
Are English speakers so arrogant that they would refuse people the right to conduct business in their own native language when that language is one of the native languages of a country, Thankfully those days are gone from here, (except for a few intolerant individuals still living with outdated ideas on the treatment of minorities).

cyclopath2001;
OK, so you don't want everyone to speak Irish, but you do want to annoy them by forcing them to learn it?

Only people like you.

getz · 30-10-2010 9:47am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Actually, 6.2 million.

if the north of the country joins up, it it will be 8 million

Cú Giobach · 30-10-2010 9:54am

getz wrote: »

if the north of the country joins up, it it will be 8 million

:eek:

32 counties population 6.2 million.

Iwasfrozen;
Actually, 6.2 million.

Actually none.

Iwasfrozen · 30-10-2010 1:27pm

getz wrote: »

if the north of the country joins up, it it will be 8 million

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eddyc · 30-10-2010 1:40pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

If there are two or more languages in a country that country has 2 or more official languages, this is common policy throughout Europe and the world.
This developed along with religious and ethnic tolerance and is part of what we call democracy. If you don't like that why are you living in a democratic country?
Are English speakers so arrogant that they would refuse people the right to conduct business in their own native language when that language is one of the native languages of a country, Thankfully those days are gone from here, (except for a few intolerant individuals still living with outdated ideas on the treatment of minorities).

What are you talking about? In France the only official language is French, what about the thousands of speakers of Breton and Corsican, do they get to conduct official business with the state in their languages, no.
Does every schoolchild in France have to learn them, no. What about the USA a country with many speakers of many different languages, whats their official language? They don't have one. Are schoolchildren made to learn Navaho or Apache in school, no. As far as I know France and the USA are democracies.
Ireland doesn't have the amount of native speakers to justify its policies with the Irish language.

cyclopath2001 · 30-10-2010 2:06pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Are English speakers so arrogant that they would refuse people the right to conduct business in their own native language

Are Irish-sepakers so arrogant that they would refuse to use their perfect English and save the state some money?

Cú Giobach wrote: »

cyclopath2001 wrote:

OK, so you don't want everyone to speak Irish, but you do want to annoy them by forcing them to learn it?

Only people like you.

The irish speaking lobby should concentrate its efforts and resources on offering lessons to those who do want to speak Irish.

Cú Giobach · 30-10-2010 2:46pm

eddyc wrote: »

What are you talking about? In France the only official language is French, what about the thousands of speakers of Breton and Corsican, do they get to conduct official business with the state in their languages, no.
Does every schoolchild in France have to learn them, no. What about the USA a country with many speakers of many different languages, whats their official language? They don't have one. Are schoolchildren made to learn Navaho or Apache in school, no. As far as I know France and the USA are democracies.
Ireland doesn't have the amount of native speakers to justify its policies with the Irish language.

You forgot to mention Switzerland, Belguim or even Wales.

Cú Giobach · 30-10-2010 2:49pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Are Irish-sepakers so arrogant that they would refuse to use their perfect English and save the state some money?

The irish speaking lobby should concentrate its efforts and resources on offering lessons to those who do want to speak Irish.

I disagree. End of conversation. Slán.

eddyc · 30-10-2010 4:33pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

You forgot to mention Switzerland, Belguim or even Wales.

Well, French, Dutch, German and Italian are not minority languages. In Switzerland only native speakers of Romansch are allowed correspondence with the federal government in that language. The Welsh situation seems similar to Irelands and as such I don't agree with their compulsory Welsh language education , which was only introduced in 2000.

Rebelheart · 30-10-2010 4:40pm

eddyc wrote: »

Well, French, Dutch, German and Italian are not minority languages. In Switzerland only native speakers of Romansch are allowed correspondence with the federal government in that language.

In fact, in Switzerland Romansch, French and Italian are minority languages. These minority languages are also three of the four official languages of Switzerland.

cyclopath2001 · 30-10-2010 5:17pm

Rebelheart wrote: »

In fact, in Switzerland Romansch, French and Italian are minority languages. These minority languages are also three of the four official languages of Switzerland.

For comparison with Irish, Romansch is probably the most apt. But, even then, the numbers of daily native Romansch speakers outnumbers native Irish speakers in Ireland, even in proportion to the higher overall population of Switzerland.

Importantly, the right to correspond with the federal government in Romansh is confined to native speakers, and the government does not have a law forcing federal departments to provide all services and documents in Romansch. Quite sensibly, the Romansh speakers use German as needed.

Cú Giobach · 31-10-2010 12:20pm

eddyc wrote: »

Well, French, Dutch, German and Italian are not minority languages. In Switzerland only native speakers of Romansch are allowed correspondence with the federal government in that language. The Welsh situation seems similar to Irelands and as such I don't agree with their compulsory Welsh language education , which was only introduced in 2000.

It's called progress.

deise go deo · 01-11-2010 2:28am

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Yes, mine. Do you see the words 'ban Irish from schools' anywhere in that sentence?

So having Irish in school is fine as long as those learning it pay for it entirely themselves? Why Irish and not any other subject?

Don't be absurd. They already speak English.

They already speak Irish, The state not providing its services through Irish means that Irish speakers are forced to use English.
Is that not true?

Ah yes, you hold on fast to that piece of paper and the sense of entitlement it gives you.

Ad Hominium,
Why all the personal attacks? I have not resorted to personal remarks against you.

The Constitution is not simply a bit of paper, It is the core of the legitimacy of the state. Irish is in it by the choice of the people. If you believe that the position of Irish in the constitution is not appropriate then campaign to have it changed, If people don't want Irish to be supported then they will support its removal as the First national Language, No?

But is it right that 'support' should involve forcing the language on children who don't wish to speak it?

What do you mean forcing it on children who don't want to learn it? Are you suggesting a four year old child be given a choice as to what subjects they learn? Or dose that only extend to subject you don't like?

There's something very revealing in your Freudian slip of saying that people should be 'thought' Irish rather than 'taught'. It implies that you think non-Irish speakers suffer from a cognitive defect.

It implies nothing or the sort, You are trying hard to get a belligerent response from me, But to my mind that just shows you are running out of ideas to argue with.
I should not even dignify this crap with a response but here it goes.
That is a purely strawman argument.
I have never, nor will I ever suggest such a thing. I do not hold views like that, That you want to believe I do simply shows your ignorance, nothing more

The issue is not how well Irish is taught, but whether or not people should be forced to learn it, no matter how nice the teacher.

Read the OP, The issue is weather or not Irish is dead. It is not! That has been shown beyond doubt.
Nor is it a ''Brain dead'' Language
Nor is it a Language on ''Life support''

It is a minority language, that has 20,000 Native speakers who speak the language every day, Over 30,000 more non Native speakers who speak it every day and thousands of people who are learning it who don't get the opportunity to speak it every day.

It is you that has constantly tried to make the argument into one based on its compulsory status in schools on the false premise that having a compulsory subject in school is some sort of crime.

Iwasfrozen · 01-11-2010 9:57am

deise go deo wrote: »

Nor is it a Language on ''Life support.''

To be fair, it is.

feicim · 01-11-2010 11:57am

Is it time this thread was closed down? Everything that has to be said has been said at this point, and its now turned into a monty python arguing sketch..

irish is dead - no it isn't - yes it is - no it isn't - oh but i think you'll find it is - actually its not - well maybe not dead, but not quite alive - no it isn't - yes it is - what are we talking about again - irish being dead - no it isn't - yes it is... etc etc

To sum up (with some facts)- In answer to the OP's post, Irish, by definition is not a dead language.

However, (for whatever reason) (at present) relative to the population of Ireland, it is not widely spoken / used.

Why has this thread gone on for so long??

Threads usually whimper out of existence after a few pages, frankly I'm a bit disturbed that this has gone onto 148 pages:eek:

eddyc · 01-11-2010 12:40pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

It's called progress.

Progress to where, where has Irish progressed to since the introduction of compulsory Irish for everyone? Less people speak it now than ever.

deise go deo · 01-11-2010 12:45pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

To be fair, it is.

By what measure, there is no such thing as a language on life support, The Language is supported by the state, but so are all national languages.
What you have failed to do is show that people do not want the state to continue supporting Irish.
I know there are wastes in how Irish is supported, In that regard it is just like every thing else the state spends money on. I have no problem with support for the language being re-structured so that what is spent on it sees results.

As far as international standards Irish has been upgraded by UNESCO from critically endangered to vulnerable.

As far as the amount of speakers go, The numbers of speakers is worrying but it is far from inevitable that the language will die out.

Is Irish a dead language?

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