Is Irish a dead language?

Cú Giobach

eddyc wrote: »

Progress to where, where has Irish progressed to since the introduction of compulsory Irish for everyone? Less people speak it now than ever.

Progress insomuch that Welsh & Irish are no longer discriminated against on a national level.
The usage of Irish outside Gaeltacht areas is actually increasing.

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Progress insomuch that Welsh & Irish are no longer discriminated against on a national level.

Very misleading. There has been positive discrimination in favour of Irish for nearly ninety years. Imposition of Irish lessons on English speakers, extra bonus marks in exams, civil service entry and promotion conditions, special grants for Irish speaking areas and subsidised media. It's very wrong of the Irish lobby to claim that there has been discrimination except, perhaps, in the Penal law times. And, in spite of this, Irish speaking has declined nationally. In fact more Irish was spoken under the British than under the republican government.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

The usage of Irish outside Gaeltacht areas is actually increasing.

You're misleading us again. The non-Gaeltacht 'speakers' include a sizeable number of people who just use the 'cúpla focal' out of nostalgia and politeness but don't speak the langauge as their primary means of communication and don't intend to speak it more. You've also left out an important detail... Is Irish-speaking increasing or decreasing in the Gaeltacht areas?

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Vetry misleading. There has been positive discrimination in favour of Irish for nearly ninety years. Imposition of Irish lessons on English speakers, extra bonus marks in exams, civil service entry and promotion conditions, special grants for Irish speaking areas and subsidised media. It's very wrong of the Irish lobby to claim that there has been discrimination except, perhaps, in the Penal law times. And, in spite of this, Irish speaking has declined nationally. In fact more Irish was spoken under the British than under the republican government.

You're misleading us again. The non-Gaeltacht 'speakers' include a sizeable number of people who just use the 'cúpla focal' out of nostalgia and politeness but don't speak the langauge as their primary means of communication and don't intend to speak it more. You've also left out an important detail... Is Irish-speaking increasing or decreasing in the Gaeltacht areas?

Surly you must be getting dizzy going round and round on your little roundabout.

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Surly you must be getting dizzy going round and round on your little roundabout.

Surely, you must realise by now that responding to criticism with abuse and telling untruths will not help your cause.

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Surely, you must realise by now that responding to criticism with abuse and telling untruths will not help your cause.

Round and round we go weeeeee!
I already told you I'm finished with debating with you. I's like chatting with a brick wall.
(or more accurately a 10 year old)

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

By what measure, there is no such thing as a language on life support,

Yes there is. A language being kept alive by the government is a language on life support.

deise go deo wrote: »

The Language is supported by the state, but so are all national languages.

The difference is if the government pulled the plug funding wise on english it would still survive. If the plug was pulled on Irish it would die because it is on life support. That's the difference.

deise go deo wrote: »

What you have failed to do is show that people do not want the state to continue supporting Irish.

Whether or not people want to pull the plug on Irish makes no difference as to whether it is on life support or not.

deise go deo wrote: »

I know there are wastes in how Irish is supported, In that regard it is just like every thing else the state spends money on. I have no problem with support for the language being re-structured so that what is spent on it sees results.

Neither do I. I think we can agree on some things, like for example the huge amount of money being spent translating documents no-one reads should be stopped.

deise go deo wrote: »

As far as international standards Irish has been upgraded by UNESCO from critically endangered to vulnerable.

Nice to see our paitiant may be making a recovery

deise go deo wrote: »

As far as the amount of speakers go, The numbers of speakers is worrying but it is far from inevitable that the language will die out.

Of course it won't. It's on life support.

cyclopath2001

In 2008 a major study predicted that Irish would no longer be the main community language in the strongest Gaeltacht areas in 20 years time.

The biggest problem is that young native Irish speakers are using English more and more.

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

In 2008 a major study predicted that Irish would no longer be the main community language in the strongest Gaeltacht areas in 20 years time.

The biggest problem is that young native Irish speakers are using English more and more.

Quote:
This study was undertaken to improve our understanding of the current sociolinguistic context in the Gaeltacht with a view to gaining further insight into the social dynamics and language use patterns which pose serious challenges to the sustainability of Irish as a community and family language. Clear threats to the sustainability of Irish as a community language have been documented in this report and specific recommendations have been made which form the basis of an integrated strategy to address the linguistic challenges facing the Irish-speaking community at present.
The main aims of the study were to identify the barriers to progress in the implementation of support strategies fostering the use of the Irish language, and to learn from these difficulties
48 Comprehensive Linguistic Study of the Use of Irish in the Gaeltacht: Summary
in order to build on the advantages and the linguistic strengths which exist, so as to inform a positive and dynamic strategy for the future.
In this context it is necessary to highlight nine significant positive factors which can act as a central pillar in support of the strategies and the language plans recommended in this report:

• The positive attitude towards the Irish language noted by the research team in every area studied as part of this project, especially among the young people in the Gaeltacht.

• Relatively high levels of ability in the Irish language in the majority of the Gaeltacht areas, especially among the younger age cohorts.

• The willingness on the part of many community institutions in the various areas to carry out their work and discharge their responsibilities in accordance with the linguistic status of the Gaeltacht despite the low levels of use of Irish as a community language in some areas.

• The high levels of support different State organisations evince towards ensuring the sustainability of the Irish-speaking community.

• The broad support shown by all Governments since the foundation of the State to maintaining the Gaeltacht as a distinct linguistic community.

• The number of community and State institutions willing to foster the use of Irish in their activities and events.

• The great number of Irish speakers not of Gaeltacht origin who, as a result of the language policies of the Irish State, consider the Gaeltacht as an important element of their own cultural identity; and the solidarity shown by the people of Ireland generally to the Gaeltacht.

• The recent successes of the Irish economy have provided Ireland with sufficient resources to address the linguistic challenges outlined in this report.

• Despite the process of language shift away from Irish since the seventeenth century, Irish-speaking Gaeltacht communities remain in northwest Donegal, in south Conamara and the Aran Islands, in west Corca Dhuibhne and in northwest Erris, as do Irish-speaking networks in all of the seven current Gaeltacht counties.

cyclopath2001

As a result of these social dynamics and demographic movements, a significant number of people of non-Gaeltacht origin have moved into statutory Gaeltacht areas. Although some of them may speak Irish, it is reasonable to assume that the vast majority of them are not active Irish speakers. Notably, there is evidence to show that English-speaking in-migrants form a large proportion of young Gaeltacht-based parents,....

....The Gaeltacht education system is not succeeding in transforming those who come to school as English speakers into active Irish speakers. Indeed, data from Mac Donnacha et al. (2005) and from the survey on young people (Chapter 15 of the main report) show that it is having the opposite effect: the participation of English speakers in the education system in Gaeltacht schools is reinforcing the use of English among young native speakers of Irish.

As for the patterns of language use among young people, a significant gap appears between their attitudes to and abilities in Irish, on the one hand, and their use of Irish on the other. Young Gaeltacht people most often use the Irish language within their family networks and with neighbours, although it is worth noting that only circa one fourth of them use Irish primarily in either of these networks.

.....The use of English in local companies and businesses within the Gaeltacht is increasing. Despite the fact that the business sector is the main recipient of the direct and indirect economic benefits which arise from the statutory status of Gaeltacht districts, some in the business community are not sufficiently aware of the link between their company/ business interests and the future sustainability of Irish as the primary language of the Gaeltacht.

It remains to be seen if the many noble (and no doubt expensive) recommendations will change the reality of a dwindling body of native Irish-langauge speakers.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes there is. A language being kept alive by the government is a language on life support.

Have you any source for your claim? Ie such a term being used by professionals studying languages? I prefer to use established terms like Minority language.

The difference is if the government pulled the plug funding wise on english it would still survive. If the plug was pulled on Irish it would die because it is on life support. That's the difference.

You think Irish will die if the state stops paying for Irish language iniatives?
I think we would see the back of a government that would take such a step before we saw the death of Irish.

Neither do I. I think we can agree on some things, like for example the huge amount of money being spent translating documents no-one reads should be stopped.

In some cases yes, If there is no demand for it then why do it, However I would extend that to the production of many of the same documents in the first place.

Nice to see our paitiant may be making a recovery

Why are you all for shooting the patient in the foot then?

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Why are you all for shooting the patient in the foot then?

Much as it might make a suit the Irish lobby, desperately in need of an 'enemy' to confront: Nobody is proposing banning Irish.

To continue the hospital analogy - it's time for the patient to get out of bed and stand on her own two feet.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Much as it might make a suit the Irish lobby, desperately in need of an 'enemy' to confront: Nobody is proposing banning Irish.

You still have not answered why funding should be taken away from Irish and not other subjects.

To continue the hospital analogy - it's time for the patient to get out of bed and stand on her own two feet.

I would not like to be treated by you in hospital, As soon as the patient is stableised they are out on their ear, No time allowed for recovery in your hospital?

Ironbar

Why pump millions into a language that will die off eventually anyway. Languages come and go. There are so many languages that have been lost. Important is only that you can communicate with one another.

Fact is: Nobody apart from the old irish people would miss it...or would anyone ?

deise go deo

Ironbar wrote: »

Why pump millions into a language that will die off eventually anyway. Languages come and go. There are so many languages that have been lost. Important is only that you can communicate with one another.

Fact is: Nobody apart from the old irish people would miss it...or would anyone ?

There is no reason to assume that Irish will die, It is not inevitable.

I for one would be very sad were it to die, I also know many people who would be disappointed. However we are not worried, There is a few hundred years in Irish yet;)

Your facts need a bit of work.

LordSutch

I too would like to see Irish survive, but I also look forward to the day when it ceases to be a compulsory subject in Irish schools, therefore freeing it up to be enjoyed & chereshed by those families who really do wish to speak it, whilst also being respected & acknowledged by those of us who do not want it forced upon us or our children.

Its always been the forcing/mandatory nature of the teaching that has done more harm than good to the Irish language.

deise go deo

LordSutch wrote: »

I too would like to see Irish survive, but I also look forward to the day when it ceases to be a compulsory subject in Irish schools, therefore freeing it up to be enjoyed & chereshed by those families who really do wish to speak it, whilst also being respected & acknowledged by those of us who do not want it forced upon us or our children.

I doubt many have a problem with Irish in School for cultural reasons, As has been shown, the vast majority are supportive of the language in general terms. Even Immigrants, who one could rightly say are having a culture not their own 'forced' on them dont seam to have a problem with Irish, and are actually preforming better than Irish students.

Its always been the forcing/mandatory nature of the teaching that has done more harm than good to the Irish language.

The inept teaching methods and terrible curiculum played a much greater part IMO, I personally dont have a problem with Irish being made Optional, however if it is to be done, it must be done carefully, and major reform of the curriculum must happen first. If not then there will be a knee Jerk reaction away from learning Irish.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

.....the vast majority are supportive of the language in general terms....If not then there will be a knee Jerk reaction away from learning Irish.

You don't seem to trust the 'vast majority' of English speakers to do what you want and learn Irish as a second language. That shows a lack of confidence in the real level of support, which, if it's as good as the lobby says, would not be impeded by any inconvenience.

But, isn't the teaching of Irish to English speakers a side-show to the more urgent problem - the falling rate of Irish speaking among native speakers?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You don't seem to trust the 'vast majority' of English speakers to do what you want and learn Irish as a second language. That shows a lack of confidence in the real level of support, which, if it's as good as the lobby says, would not be impeded by any inconvenience.

But, isn't the teaching of Irish to English speakers a side-show to the more urgent problem - the falling rate of Irish speaking among native speakers?

Not really, I have a strong interest in Irish but given the choice I would not subject myself to the boring, tedious and ultimately counterproductive and pointless Irish curriculum as it is now, If someone like me who has an Interest in Irish was put off Irish in school, and Im not the only one, then it is not hard to see that many who only have a mild Interest will not want to do it in School. That is why I have said time and again that there must be a major overhaul in the curriculum.
Is it starting to add up now?

There is a problem with the apparent decline of the Gaelthachts, however one of the factors in that is native speakers moving to cities for employment and thus being unable to continue to speak Irish. That is why It is important to create a space in city's for Irish, An Cultúrlann in Belfast and Derry are fine examples of what can be achieved if people are given a central point to focus around.
With this, Native speakers from the Gaelthachts, The Emerging population of former Gaelscoil students and people who just have an interest in the Language can come together and make Irish a living factor in the cultural map of Irish cities.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

That is why I have said time and again that there must be a major overhaul in the curriculum.

Sounds good to me, especially if optional and the funding not more than for any other subject.

deise go deo wrote: »

That is why It is important to create a space in city's for Irish,

Sounds nice, as long as they are self-funded.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Sounds good to me, especially if optional and the funding not more than for any other subject.

I dont think Irish has more funding in school than other subjects, It is around the same as English and Maths(for obvious reasons)
I would see a restructure of the Curriculum as the first step twords the subject being made Optional. Part of what I would like to see happen in the restructure of the curriculum is Part of Irish being made optional.

Sounds nice, as long as they are self-funded.

Now now, many cultural activities receive support from the state, I don't see why Irish should be different in that regard.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Now now, many cultural activities receive support from the state, I don't see why Irish should be different in that regard.

But, wouldn't it be a great indicator of the commitment and patriotism of Irish-speakers if they used their own money?

Amhran Nua

deise go deo wrote: »

The inept teaching methods and terrible curiculum played a much greater part IMO

This hasn't been said enough to be honest, the way it is taught in school is an embarrassment.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

But, wouldn't it be a great indicator of the commitment and patriotism of Irish-speakers if they used their own money?

Here's another idea, why don't we take Shakespeare and literature off the curriculum instead, and just focus on grammar and spelling lessons? That should save quite a few hours and euros a week, and its not like reading those old books is of much use to anyone in the modern world.

:rolleyes:

LordSutch

deise go deo wrote: »

Even Immigrants, who one could rightly say are having a culture not their own 'forced' on them dont seam to have a problem with Irish, and are actually preforming better than Irish students.

Thats a very interesting point, and one that I have heard many times before, and maybe it asks questions of our national psyche (not wanting to speak the dreaded Irish), while immigrents who don't have any cultural baggage they just take it for what it is, another EU language!

If we have bombarded our young people with Irish since the foundation of the state (1922) to little or no avail, then something is terribly wrong, given that total foreigners can just walk in and learn it without any hang ups! One possibility is that the hatred/dislike of the teaching methods hasn't been passed down through their families?

Amhran Nua

LordSutch wrote: »

then something is terribly wrong

That would be the medieval teaching methods. I would imagine that European language curriculums in Irish schools were based on existing European methods, god knows what the Irish one is based on.

cyclopath2001

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Here's another idea, why don't we take Shakespeare and literature off the curriculum instead, and just focus on grammar and spelling lessons? That should save quite a few hours and euros a week, and its not like reading those old books is of much use to anyone in the modern world.:rolleyes:

If you'd read the thread, you'd know that in response to deise's concept of 'space for Irish', I proposed that the Irish-speakers should fund them themselves.

deise go deo wrote:

That is why It is important to create a space in city's for Irish

So, as you can see, it's nothing at all to do with the school curriculum where, like you, I think it best if the Irish langauge was included subject to popular demand. But I think you'll find that given a choice between Peig and Shakespeare, many might choose the Bard. But, as we know, the Irish-lobby is afraid of giving people a choice.

ShamoBuc

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

But I think you'll find that given a choice between Peig and Shakespeare, many might choose the Bard. But, as we know, the Irish-lobby is afraid of giving people a choice.

I can use a calculator - I even have one in my phone - why should I study maths - if I had the Choice I wouldn't.

I cannot understand science - If I had the Choice - I wouldn't!

I really do not P.E. - I'm no good at sports - if I had the Choice I wouldn't!

It is surely possible for someone to make an arguement against every subject if they had the CHOICE - glad people don't to be fair.

deise go deo

LordSutch wrote: »

Thats a very interesting point, and one that I have heard many times before, and maybe it asks questions of our national psyche (not wanting to speak the dreaded Irish), while immigrents who don't have any cultural baggage they just take it for what it is, another EU language!

If we have bombarded our young people with Irish since the foundation of the state (1922) to little or no avail, then something is terribly wrong, given that total foreigners can just walk in and learn it without any hang ups! One possibility is that the hatred/dislike of the teaching methods hasn't been passed down through their families?

A resentment of how the language was tought has certainally been past down, the parents of my generation really did have the language baet into them. This is some thing that immigrants do not have, a past of bad Irish teaching,
However, I refuse to allow the mistakes of the past stand in the way of future progress.

But, wouldn't it be a great indicator of the commitment and patriotism of Irish-speakers if they used their own money?

Why should Irish speakers have to constantly prove themselves, You seam to expect Irish speakers to go above and beyond in every case, and if they dont it is 'proof' that Irish is dead. Playing by rules like that ensures failure, so dont be suprised if we dont.

If you'd read the thread, you'd know that in response to deise's concept of 'space for Irish', I proposed that the Irish-speakers should fund them themselves.

This is just another example of Irish exceptionalism, If English language culture is supported by the state(which it is) then why should Irish be Different?

So, as you can see, it's nothing at all to do with the school curriculum where, like you, I think it best if the Irish langauge was included subject to popular demand. But I think you'll find that given a choice between Peig and Shakespeare, many might choose the Bard. But, as we know, the Irish-lobby is afraid of giving people a choice.

Not at all, Properly educating people has a massive effect, That it is not the only factor dose not take away from education being a factor.
As for people choosing 'the bard' over Peig, so what? Given the choice I would pick neither. what relevance has either to me?
You have constantly tried to suggest that Irish is irrelevant to Irish people, However the facts dont stack up to support that argument, The Majority are in favor of supporting and preserving Irish, You can belittle the evidence all you want, but until you provide counterevidence then your derision counts for little.

dkin

deise go deo wrote: »

Not really, I have a strong interest in Irish but given the choice I would not subject myself to the boring, tedious and ultimately counterproductive and pointless Irish curriculum as it is now, If someone like me who has an Interest in Irish was put off Irish in school, and Im not the only one, then it is not hard to see that many who only have a mild Interest will not want to do it in School. That is why I have said time and again that there must be a major overhaul in the curriculum.
Is it starting to add up now?

Well many people have an interest in French and German. French in particular has a great reputation in schools. I remember lots of girls in particular liking the idea of speaking French. Doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of people leave school with a very bad level of French.

Learning a language is hard I know because I have devoted a very considerable amount of time to learning a modern European language, it was tedious and boring in spades. I have bought several dictionaries as they fell apart, it required diligent work over a long period of time and I still consider my grasp of the language to be poor.

Jazzing up the curriculum and introducing different teaching methods won't make any difference whatsoever in this regard. The student has to want to learn it, trying to trick them into it simply won't work, the effort required is too great. It is very hard to motivate people to study Irish as the cost benefit analysis is not in it's favour.

Rebelheart

Amhran Nua wrote: »

That would be the medieval teaching methods. I would imagine that European language curriculums in Irish schools were based on existing European methods, god knows what the Irish one is based on.

In absolute fairness to the teachers of Irish, the way they were teaching was the accepted norm across Europe. From an Irish perspective it doesn't take too much creativity to understand, for want of a more sophisticated phrase, "the English successfully beat their language into us, we'll successfully beat our language back in." Only a diehard anglophile/West Brit, or somebody with absolutely no historical empathy, could fail to truly understand the context within which Irish language policy was created.

Moreover, people have taken it as a given that the way Irish was taught was exceptional: it very much was not. It is only really since the advance of Communicative Language Teaching in the 1970s that the international view on teaching languages began to change - and even today CLT is controversial among many language teachers.

For the sake of truth, I think it's really important for everybody here to have an international perspective on how languages were actually taught during this time. Ireland, and the teaching of Irish, was not exceptional. But, sure, with all this hindsight aren't we all state-of-the-art educationalists now.

Rebelheart

ShamoBuc wrote: »

I can use a calculator - I even have one in my phone - why should I study maths - if I had the Choice I wouldn't.

I cannot understand science - If I had the Choice - I wouldn't!

I really do not P.E. - I'm no good at sports - if I had the Choice I wouldn't!

It is surely possible for someone to make an arguement against every subject if they had the CHOICE - glad people don't to be fair.

Well said. Very, very obvious to the rest of us, but cyclopath2001 refuses to face this reality as it would ruin the basis of his rants against Irish.