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Is Irish a dead language?
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What is meant by 'space for Irish in cities'? This is what you're asking for to be be paid for by the taxpayer.deise go deo wrote: »This is just another example of Irish exceptionalism, If English language culture is supported by the state(which it is) then why should Irish be Different?
So, you think that English-speakers can be converted into Irish speakers by 'properly educating' them?deise go deo wrote: »Not at all, Properly educating people has a massive effect,
I've merely pointed out the elephant in the room which is that most Irish people don't speak Irish and make no effort to do so. Is this not highly relevant?deise go deo wrote: »You have constantly tried to suggest that Irish is irrelevant to Irish people,
You're still clinging to that survey designed and commissioned by the Irish-language industry to justify its existence. It seems to be all you've got.deise go deo wrote: »The Majority are in favor of supporting and preserving Irish,
There is no derision in what I've said, merely a highlighting of a reality that you refuse to accept.deise go deo wrote: »You can belittle the evidence all you want, but until you provide counterevidence then your derision counts for little.0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »What is meant by 'space for Irish in cities'? This is what you're asking for to be be paid for by the taxpayer.
It is exactally what it sounds like, A space in cities for the Irish language to focus and develop around, I provided a link to an example of what I am talking about.
You havent answered my question, Why should the state support Culture through the English language, but not through Irish?So, you think that English-speakers can be converted into Irish speakers by 'properly educating' them?
We are not talking about religion here, Though No Doubt you will come back with a comparrission between Irish speakers and relecious extreamists, If people can speak A language, they are much more likely to do so. Is that not true?I've merely pointed out the elephant in the room which is that most Irish people don't speak Irish and make no effort to do so. Is this not highly relevant?
Most Irish people never made an effort to speak English. It was forced into them by their parents. It is basicly irrelevant. Learning a language is something that takes Time, Money and effort, It is not the least bit suprising that adults with other commitments dont devote their time to learning Irish, or any other language for that matter.You're still clinging to that survey designed and commissioned by the Irish-language industry to justify its existence. It seems to be all you've got.
There is no derision in what I've said, merely a highlighting of a reality that you refuse to accept.
Still clinging to my Evidience? Where is your evidience that Irish people do not Generally want Irish to be supported?
Just because you think my evidience isent good enough dosent mean you can claim your opinion is true without evidience of your own.0 -
Rebelheart wrote: »Well said. Very, very obvious to the rest of us, but cyclopath2001 refuses to face this reality as it would ruin the basis of his rants against Irish.
I had a choice between French and German for a language in school, I also had a choice of what science subject I wanted to learn between Chemistry, Physics and Biology. You are hinting at a false dichotomy between learning a particular subject or doing nothing at all, which doesn't actually exist in any schools. Still it helps you're point so why not?0 -
I had a choice between French and German for a language in school, I also had a choice of what science subject I wanted to learn between Chemistry, Physics and Biology. You are hinting at a false dichotomy between learning a particular subject or doing nothing at all, which doesn't actually exist in any schools. Still it helps you're point so why not?
Aren't they all seperate subjects in their own right, what are you getting at exactly
I think primary school education is the root of the problem, where there is plenty of good teachers in it that have a great knowledge of it, there are some who are just in it for the lifestyle.
Like to learn a languge for 12/13 years and only begin to learn the conditional mood and the genitive case when in 5th year or even in some cases not at all is a bit of a joke.
No Irish speaker wants to out English we just want them to live side by side as equals.0 -
I can use a calculator - I even have one in my phone - why should I study maths - if I had the Choice I wouldn't.
I cannot understand science - If I had the Choice - I wouldn't!
I really do not P.E. - I'm no good at sports - if I had the Choice I wouldn't!
It is surely possible for someone to make an arguement against every subject if they had the CHOICE - glad people don't to be fair.
You appear to be confusing basic arithmetic with mathematics. There's a huge difference.
Scientific subjects already *are* optional, at least beyond junior cert anyway, and there is very little science teaching at primary level compared with Irish.
There will always be a few people who don't enjoy sport. But the fact is most healthy young kids do enjoy sporting activities, and it is a direct benefit to their health. PE only takes up a fraction of the amount of time that Irish does, and is practically nonexistent in many schools anyway.
You're trying to imply that schoolkids would give up every single subject given the choice. That's a ludicrous argument. Most kids may not like all of the subjects they study. But they can at least see a point to studying most of them, unlike in the case of Irish. And if they really dislike a subject like science, they are free to give it up post Junior cert.0 -
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deise go deo wrote: »
Still clinging to my Evidience? Where is your evidience that Irish people do not Generally want Irish to be supported?
Just because you think my evidience isent good enough dosent mean you can claim your opinion is true without evidience of your own.
I think the point that guy is trying to make is that Irish people have been voting with their feet and abandoning the Irish language in droves for the last 150 years. It has been pointed out time and time again that you cannot use state coercion to promote a language like Irish. It hasn't worked. It will never work. And if you keep trying it, you will eventually kill off the language entirely. It reminds me of how the Catholic Church's hard-assed attitude towards shoving their religion down our throats ultimately failed to preserve Ireland as a theocratic state ruled by Rome.
One more thing: there is more to promoting Irish than just teaching it in school. I know plenty of people who learned the Irish as adults in their own free time purely out of love for the language. There is nothing stopping anyone from watching TnaG, listening to Irish radio or reading Irish language circulations which the Irish state pours millions into promoting. The fact that only a tiny minority of the people on this island choose to embrace the Irish language in such a manner should be all the proof you need that the Irish people ultimately do not give a toss about the language.0 -
Would alcohol be allowed?deise go deo wrote: »It is exactally what it sounds like, A space in cities for the Irish language to focus and develop around, I provided a link to an example of what I am talking about.
A bit of lottery money would be OK, but not the huge sums spent at present.deise go deo wrote: »You havent answered my question, Why should the state support Culture through the English language, but not through Irish?
I did not mention religion.deise go deo wrote: »We are not talking about religion here,
You're kidding. People learned English because it provided better economic and social opportunities, that was many, many generations ago. The modern Gaeltact Irish speakers are not learning English because their parents forced them to do so.deise go deo wrote: »Most Irish people never made an effort to speak English. It was forced into them by their parents.
You want me to produce evidence that something does not exist?deise go deo wrote: »Still clinging to my Evidience? Where is your evidience that Irish people do not Generally want Irish to be supported?0 -
Aren't they all seperate subjects in their own right, what are you getting at exactly
I think primary school education is the root of the problem, where there is plenty of good teachers in it that have a great knowledge of it, there are some who are just in it for the lifestyle.
Like to learn a languge for 12/13 years and only begin to learn the conditional mood and the genitive case when in 5th year or even in some cases not at all is a bit of a joke.
No Irish speaker wants to out English we just want them to live side by side as equals.
I'm saying that a choice of whether to do Irish or not would not come down to Irish or nothing as was implied, rather it would come down to Irish or another language, similar to choosing between French German Spanish today.0 -
Interesting article on insideireland disputing some of the claims about the ‘death’ of the Irish language. I believe it’s the first in a series of articles looking at the various anti-Irish arguments put forward by it’s opponents.
Link
It’s a good read and makes some good points particularly about the levels of Irish in the Gaeltacht.
Yes0 -
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Are you having a laugh ? Seriously!MysticalRain wrote: »You appear to be confusing basic arithmetic with mathematics. There's a huge difference.
Scientific subjects already *are* optional, at least beyond junior cert anyway, and there is very little science teaching at primary level compared with Irish.
There will always be a few people who don't enjoy sport. But the fact is most healthy young kids do enjoy sporting activities, and it is a direct benefit to their health. PE only takes up a fraction of the amount of time that Irish does, and is practically nonexistent in many schools anyway.
You're trying to imply that schoolkids would give up every single subject given the choice. That's a ludicrous argument. Most kids may not like all of the subjects they study. But they can at least see a point to studying most of them, unlike in the case of Irish. And if they really dislike a subject like science, they are free to give it up post Junior cert.
Firstly, once you leave school you never have to do maths again - JUST arithmetic - which a calculator will do for you! Hence my point holds true.
"Very little Science at primary level compared to Irish" - Theres very little Science at primary level compared to English and Maths - so whats your point? Allow a student to drop English if he does not like reading?
Drop maths if they can't do their tables?
I love your comment about " most healthy young kids enjoy sports" - by your logic the unhealthy kids could choose not to do P.E. - good one!! That will really help them!
Also "P.E. is practically non-existent in many schools anyway" - where did you get that nugget of information? Link? At primary level there is an hour a week Timetabled every week for P.E. - the same as History/Science/Geog/Art/Music.... but it's practically non-existent????? Are you talking about secondary schools? - I believe they have double PE classes in secondary schools?
I've asked many a student how many subjects do they enjoy - try it sometime!! They do them because they have to! Because they do not have a choice! Post Junior Cert they have a limited choice - but that is only for the Last 2 yrs of their education! In order to try to have a Rounded Cross Curricular Education students must not have a choice until the last few years of a 14 year cycle!
The core subjects Irish/English/Maths, hopefully, will never be an option but a requirement - they are of equal importance IMHO. Learning Irish from a young age - and the studies into Gaelscoils have proven this - make it much easier to learn French/German/Spanish in later years, another reason not to give children the choice to drop whatever subjects they want.
Students have the option not to study Irish - at 3rd level - and yet so many of them study it there - go figure?0 -
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That might be the case in your own experience. Meanwhile back in the real world, you'll find that's not the case in many professions. Like in the knowledge economy areas of engineering, science, or computing with only basic arithmetic skills and see how far you get. Mathematics also teaches people logic and problem solving skills which are useful in many jobs. The basic point is people can quite easily manage without Irish, but they cannot do so without maths. I highly doubt if most school kids would drop maths either way, as most realize just how useful it is.Are you having a laugh ? Seriously!
Firstly, once you leave school you never have to do maths again - JUST arithmetic - which a calculator will do for you! Hence my point holds true.
One more point....as recent surveys showed, up to a third of the Irish population lack even basic arithmetic skills which just goes to show how much of a failure our so-called education system really is. 25% of the population are also functionally illiterate. Perhaps that gooes some way towards explaining why so many people in this country took out mortgages they couldn't afford to repay, and failed to read the fine print of the contracts they signed. But of course the Irish education system still continues with its obsessive focus on the Irish language while glaring deficiencies remain unaddressed elsewhere.
I never said anything about that. So I don't see what point you're trying to make here.Allow a student to drop English if he does not like reading? Drop maths if they can't do their tables?
I never said that either, so please stop putting words in my mouth.I love your comment about " most healthy young kids enjoy sports" - by your logic the unhealthy kids could choose not to do P.E. - good one!! That will really help them!
An hour week actually is a pittance compared to the disproportionate amount of time spent teaching Irish. Judging by the various shapes and sizes of students these days, they obviously need a lot more than a single hour of PE a week. I myself went through my entire primary education without any scheduled PE classes. We might have done a few classes a year, but that was it.Also "P.E. is practically non-existent in many schools anyway" - where did you get that nugget of information? Link? At primary level there is an hour a week Timetabled every week for P.E. - the same as History/Science/Geog/Art/Music.... but it's practically non-existent????? Are you talking about secondary schools? - I believe they have double PE classes in secondary schools?
Students don't go to school to be entertained. You make it sound like students would simply drop every single subject and opt out of school completely given the choice. That may be true for certain students. But it's obviously not the case for those who wish to pursue any sort of meaningful career. Students who have any sort of ambition understand this.I've asked many a student how many subjects do they enjoy - try it sometime!!
There is no practical reason why Irish should be elevated to the same level as maths or English. Pursuing an agenda to promote Irish to the same level as maths and English is more to do with nationalism and cultural indoctrination than genuine education. I think the core subject should be Maths, English, and a language of the student's choosing. Nobody here is saying that students should be allowed to opt out of whatever the hell they like. I would argue that the education system should teach at least one European language alongside Irish at primary level (it's an absolute scandal that Irish primary schools generally don't teach foreign languages). At second level, I think students should study at least two foreign languages, along with Irish. From second year onwards, they should be required to study one language of their choosing whether it's Irish, French, German or whatever.The core subjects Irish/English/Maths, hopefully, will never be an option but a requirement - they are of equal importance IMHO.
That hasn't been my experience. Back when I was in school, my experience of learning Irish at primary level put me off learning languages to begin with. Gaelscoil pupils tend to come from better off areas and have less riff-raff attending them, so that's probably skewing the statistics.Learning Irish from a young age - and the studies into Gaelscoils have proven this - make it much easier to learn French/German/Spanish in later years, another reason not to give children the choice to drop whatever subjects they want.
There aren't even that many Irish university level courses to begin with. So I can't see how you can credibly claim that there are comparable numbers of third level students studying Irish as at secondary or primary level. It should of course be pointed out that there wouldn't be half the numbers of people studying Irish at third level if it wasn't an artificial requirement to enter the teaching profession either.Students have the option not to study Irish - at 3rd level - and yet so many of them study it there - go figure?0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »Would alcohol be allowed?
I dont believe alcohol is sold in Either culturlann in NI, As for new Cultúrlanns in the Republic, I dont know, It would be up to the people running them, Why do you ask?A bit of lottery money would be OK, but not the huge sums spent at present.
So who decides what is acceptable then? Obviously not the government elected by the people as you think they are wrong. so who?You want me to produce evidence that something does not exist?
I want you to back up your argument with something more substantial than your opinion, Not unreasonable, is it?0 -
The basic point is people can quite easily manage without Irish
How difficult would it be to get by without Sheakspear, or knowing what a stanza is? I suppose there is no need for English to be compulsory either?But of course the Irish education system still continues with its obsessive focus on the Irish language while glaring deficiencies remain unaddressed elsewhere.
Are you honestly trying to link Irish to there being problems in the Education System?
Have you heard of causation? Just because two things are going on at the same time dose not mean they are related.:rolleyes:
.Students don't go to school to be entertained. You make it sound like students would simply drop every single subject and opt out of school completely given the choice. That may be true for certain students. But it's obviously not the case for those who wish to pursue any sort of meaningful career. Students who have any sort of ambition understand this
Yes and those student also manage to do well in Irish.:eek:That hasn't been my experience. Back when I was in school, my experience of learning Irish at primary level put me off learning languages to begin with. Gaelscoil pupils tend to come from better off areas and have less riff-raff attending them, so that's probably skewing the statistics.
Source?0 -
For many jobs this is true but some of us encounter complicated maths on a daily basis. Indeed most of the so called knowledge economy jobs fall into this bracket.Are you having a laugh ? Seriously!
Firstly, once you leave school you never have to do maths again - JUST arithmetic - which a calculator will do for you! Hence my point holds true.
I would have some sympathy with this argument, if the child has little or no interest why force them in particular if that subject is one such has Irish without which the child's choices are not be severely impeded. Irish is a luxury subject, present primarily due to political pressures."Very little Science at primary level compared to Irish" - Theres very little Science at primary level compared to English and Maths - so whats your point? Allow a student to drop English if he does not like reading?
Drop maths if they can't do their tables?
In the case of English in particular I think a good grounding is extremely important, maths to a lesser extent however it does limit options later if numeracy is not developed.
Foreign languages are interesting as in the modern world international communication is through English, so an ability to speak a foreign language is not of immense importance for many people. However if you want to get a job in the EU or UN you need to be able to speak a foreign language. It is also very important when conducting business abroad.
I would consider one hour a week non-existent infact it's pointless. The PE curriculum must be very limited if only an hour minus the time spent changing is spent on it a week. I think PE in schools is very important as it allows the child to experience many sports that his/her parents might not know about or have any interest in. I think the key to developing later sports participation in later life is to play many different sports at a young age.I love your comment about " most healthy young kids enjoy sports" - by your logic the unhealthy kids could choose not to do P.E. - good one!! That will really help them!
Also "P.E. is practically non-existent in many schools anyway" - where did you get that nugget of information? Link? At primary level there is an hour a week Timetabled every week for P.E. - the same as History/Science/Geog/Art/Music.... but it's practically non-existent????? Are you talking about secondary schools? - I believe they have double PE classes in secondary schools?
Speaking from experience (I was in school too!) I know lots of children who enjoyed school including myself particularly primary school.I've asked many a student how many subjects do they enjoy - try it sometime!! They do them because they have to! Because they do not have a choice!
Define a well rounded education, it means completely different things to different people. For instance some people might consider chess to be a vital part of primary education, and I would agree with them! In Ireland we have a one size fits all approach which is horribly unsuited to many.Post Junior Cert they have a limited choice - but that is only for the Last 2 yrs of their education! In order to try to have a Rounded Cross Curricular Education students must not have a choice until the last few years of a 14 year cycle!
The core subjects Irish/English/Maths, hopefully, will never be an option but a requirement - they are of equal importance IMHO. Learning Irish from a young age - and the studies into Gaelscoils have proven this - make it much easier to learn French/German/Spanish in later years, another reason not to give children the choice to drop whatever subjects they want.
You've also just said that Irish is important as it allows students to more easily learn another language. Why not just teach them French/German/Spanish initially?0 -
This is why billions of people all over the world are actively engaged in learning to speak English, there might be a few other motives you're not mentioning...deise go deo wrote: »How difficult would it be to get by without Sheakspear, or knowing what a stanza is? I suppose there is no need for English to be compulsory either?
I feel the students would get more out of replacing Irish with PE.Are you honestly trying to link Irish to there being problems in the Education System?
Have you heard of causation? Just because two things are going on at the same time dose not mean they are related.:rolleyes:
Yes but what's the point of speaking Irish if you're interested in having a career. I hated Irish at school and guess what not being able to speak Irish has never at any stage of my life impeded me in any way in terms of my career. And if it was a problem I'd just spend the time to learn it. Needless to say I don't see this happening anytime soon.Yes and those student also manage to do well in Irish.:eek:0 -
Yes but what's the point of speaking Irish if you're interested in having a career.
There is just so much wrong with that statement:rolleyes:
There are such thing as Jobs that use Irish,:eek:
Just because you dont deal with them dosent mean they dont exist.I hated Irish at school and guess what not being able to speak Irish has never at any stage of my life impeded me in any way in terms of my career. And if it was a problem I'd just spend the time to learn it. Needless to say I don't see this happening anytime soon.
I will never be impeded by not knowing quotes from Hamlet, What is the Justification for forcing them on people?
Could it possibly be that Education is about more than training people how to work?0 -
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Barrister/Solicitor
Translator
Teacher
It greatly improves your chances of working in the Public sector if you can take an interview in Irish0 -
Barrister/Solicitor
Translator
Teacher
It greatly improves your chances of working in the Public sector if you can take an interview in Irish
They're only down to Irish being state mandated, not due to any natural demand or need.
why should a maths/english/science/geography/french/business teacher need to know Irish in an English speaking school?0 -
By this stage in the thread I think that we are all agreed that the vast majority of people in the country are not proficient in Irish, I also think that we are agreed that the teaching of Irish has been a dismal failure for the last eighty years+, so whats going to change things? Are the department of education even aware that most people are still leaving school & not able to speak Irish? do they even care? Will there ever be a big change at the top, and when will it happen? is this the last generation of pupils who will not be able to speak the lingo, or will it be another twenty, thirty, or even forty years before things are sorted out? Do most of us even care? or do we just pay lip service to 'keeping the Irish language alive' because its our culture???
Surely the 'Irish' experiment has failed miserably (after nearly ninety years).0 -
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By this stage in the thread I think that we are all agreed that the vast majority of people in the country are not proficient in Irish, I also think that we are agreed that the teaching of Irish has been a dismal failure for the last eighty years+, so whats going to change things? Are the department of education even aware that most people are still leaving school & not able to speak Irish? do they even care? Will there ever be a big change at the top, and when will it happen? is this the last generation of pupils who will not be able to speak the lingo, or will it be another twenty, thirty, or even forty years before things are sorted out? Do most of us even care? or do we just pay lip service to 'keeping the Irish language alive' because its our culture???
Surely the 'Irish' experiment has failed miserably (after nearly ninety years).
It really depends on what you see the ultimate goal as, If it is the restoration of Irish to the primary spoken Language on the Island then it is a qualified failure, If however it is the preservation of Irish as a spoken language then it is a qualified success so far.Name some?
Do you think they dont exist or are you just being obtuse?
Actor
Director
Cameramen
Sectary
Garda
Manager
Politics
Teaching
Advertisement
Translator
Public services.
Helper on Summer courses.
Jobs in the gaelthacht:
Shop assistant
chef
Bar person
Postman
Etc etc
People who work with Irish language organisations throughout the country.0 -
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deise go deo wrote: »Actor
Director
Cameramen
Sectary
Garda
Manager
Politics
Teaching
Advertisement
Translator
Public services.
Helper on Summer courses.
Jobs in the gaelthacht:
Shop assistant
chef
Bar person
Postman
Actor - on a single channel
Director - on a single channel
Cameramen - on a single channel
Sectary - why does a secretary need to know Irish?
Garda - It is an artificial requirement for the job. Most Guards could do their job perfectly well without Irish on a daily basis
Manager - Why does a manager need to speak Irish?
Politics - Lots of our politicians can't speak Irish
Teaching - Again an artificial requirement. I spent years in school and only remember the Irish teacher needing to use Irish
Advertisement - Again on one channel and one again it's an artificial requirement imposed by state legislation
Translator - Yes
Public services - Artificial requirement again, no need to use Irish for the vast vast majority on a day to day basis
Helper on Summer courses - Again a highly specialised job. Hardly a reason for compulsory Irish across the whole country. Plenty of people in the gaeltacht such as chefs, postmen etc. can't speak Irish
Jobs in the gaelthacht:
Shop assistant
chef
Bar person
Postman
Etc etc
The vast majority of people in the above cases will learn enough Irish to pass the requirements and then never use it again. They don't 'use' Irish.0 -
Actor - on a single channel
Director - on a single channel
Cameramen - on a single channel
The BBC do Irish programs too;)
Anyway what difference dose it make, they are still jobs that require Irish.Sectary - why does a secretary need to know Irish?
A sectary for a company that works through Irish.Garda - It is an artificial requirement for the job. Most Guards could do their job perfectly well without Irish on a daily basis
Guards need to be able to speak Irish as the Public has the right to cunduct its business with the state through Irish. Wether or not people should be forced to use English when communicating with the state is another matter.Manager - Why does a manager need to speak Irish?
The Manager of a company run through Irish needs Irish, as do the rest of its staff.Politics - Lots of our politicians can't speak Irish
Alot of our politicians can and do speak Irish.Teaching - Again an artificial requirement. I spent years in school and only remember the Irish teacher needing to use Irish
There is nothing at all artifical about Irish teachers needing Irish.Advertisement - Again on one channel and one again it's an artificial requirement imposed by state legislation
Many companies realise the advantages of including Irish in their advertisments. Cuinis, bothar, cailín, bainne, for example, do you think Carlsberg were forced by the state to use Irish?Public services - Artificial requirement again, no need to use Irish for the vast vast majority on a day to day basis
Again not relevant, there are public servants who need Irish for their Daily Jobs. That is a job requiring Irish, Is it not?Helper on Summer courses - Again a highly specialised job. Hardly a reason for compulsory Irish across the whole country. Plenty of people in the gaeltacht such as chefs, postmen etc. can't speak Irish
It is a job that requires Irish. I never tried to use jobs as a justification for Compulsory Irish in schools. That is a strawman argument.
There are more jobs in this country that need Irish than Any other language, except English.Jobs in the gaelthacht:
Shop assistant
chef
Bar person
Postman
Etc etc
The vast majority of people in the above cases will learn enough Irish to pass the requirements and then never use it again. They don't 'use' Irish.
That is simply wrong, I have been to the Gaelthacht many times and on each occasion I have spoken to people there doing these jobs in Irish and have seen locals conversing with people doing these jobs through Irish.
I find it hard to believe that you actually think that is what happens in the 'Vast majority' of cases, to the extent that I think you are intentionally not telling the truth. Where did you get such an erroneous notion from?
When was the last time you were in the Gaelthacht? What are you baseing your claim on?0 -
How many of these jobs exist because of state obligation for Irish language services or as a result of state patronage of Irish?deise go deo wrote: »There are more jobs in this country that need Irish than Any other language, except English.
Or to put it another way, how many of these Irish-speaking jobs are sustained by the Irish-language community?0 -
Its not dead yet but it could very well be in the near future.
I studied it until I was 17 and due to the education system I hated it. I'm 23 now and desperately want to learn it. To anyone who wants to see a resurge in Irish throughout the country I say go out and learn it right now and aim to speak it in the home with your children (assuming you have them). If we can increase the number of people speaking it in the home that will make a huge difference.0 -
Doing some research on Nuacht RTE/ Nuacht Tg4 would like ppls thoughts on these news programmes , all opinions will be appreciated. Thanks0
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That's a simple-minded strawman argument. There is more to the English curriculum than Shakespeare or poetry. Proper grammar, and reading comprehension are essential skills for everyone living on this island. So long English remains the native spoken language here, there will never be any practical justification for elevating the Irish language to the same status as English for any practical reason. To claim otherwise is very disingenuous.How difficult would it be to get by without Sheakspear, or knowing what a stanza is? I suppose there is no need for English to be compulsory either?
Are you familiar with basic arithmetic? There is a finite amount of teaching hours in a given year. If more hours are devoted to one subject, they are taken away from other subjects.Have you heard of causation? Just because two things are going on at the same time dose not mean they are related.
Don't take my word for it. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, various captains of industry from companies like HP and Intel are telling us that we spend far too much time teaching irrelevant subjects like Irish and religion (which combined amount to 25% of the teaching hours apparently), and not enough time on teaching subjects like foreign languages, science, maths, and computers.Are you honestly trying to link Irish to there being problems in the Education System?
Have you heard of causation? Just because two things are going on at the same time dose not mean they are related.
So on the one hand, we are presenting ourselves with our begging bowls before American multinationals in the hopes that they will give us some jobs and lead us out of this recession. But on the other hand, we are not willing to reform our backward DeVelara-era education system to make it easier for the Intels and HP's of this world to give us the jobs we seek.
So on the one hand, you claim that the Irish education system does a miserable job of teaching Irish, and on the other hand you are now implying that no students actually do well in Irish?Yes and those student also manage to do well in Irish.0 -
I accept that their are jobs that require Irish in certain specialised cases and I'm not denying that. I just think is disingenuous to put down 'secretary' etc. as a job that a requires Irish as in the vast majority of cases a secretary will have no need to converse in Irish. A knowledge of any language is an advantage but not a prerequisite to do the vast majority of jobs listed above. When there is a requirement it is often an artificial one.deise go deo wrote: »The BBC do Irish programs too;)
Anyway what difference dose it make, they are still jobs that require Irish.
A sectary for a company that works through Irish.
Guards need to be able to speak Irish as the Public has the right to cunduct its business with the state through Irish. Wether or not people should be forced to use English when communicating with the state is another matter.
The Manager of a company run through Irish needs Irish, as do the rest of its staff.
Alot of our politicians can and do speak Irish.
There is nothing at all artifical about Irish teachers needing Irish.
Many companies realise the advantages of including Irish in their advertisments. Cuinis, bothar, cailín, bainne, for example, do you think Carlsberg were forced by the state to use Irish?
Again not relevant, there are public servants who need Irish for their Daily Jobs. That is a job requiring Irish, Is it not?
Possibly but if you read the recruitment pages for companies like Facebook, HP etc. Speaking multiple languages is a prequesisite for many of these jobs. Often resulting in an entirely non-national workforce as Irish people in general have terrible language skills. Define 'need', need as in an artifical requirement with very little use except in exceptional circumstances or 'need' as in a requirement to conduct their daily business. If it's the latter I think the number of jobs requiring a language other than Irish are many magnitudes higher than the number of jobs requiring Irish.
There are more jobs in this country that need Irish than Any other language, except English.
Sorry I meant all the jobs listed above not just the ones in the gaeltacht which are pretty small in number in comparison to the number of teachers, guards, barrister etc. that have an artificial Irish requirement.That is simply wrong, I have been to the Gaelthacht many times and on each occasion I have spoken to people there doing these jobs in Irish and have seen locals conversing with people doing these jobs through Irish.0 -
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Some of those Irish-speaking jobs are great:Sorry I meant all the jobs listed above not just the ones in the gaeltacht which are pretty small in number in comparison to the number of teachers, guards, barrister etc. that have an artificial Irish requirement.
From the Irish ExaminerTHE body charged with bringing investment into the Gaeltacht has been described as a "mini-Fás" after it emerged that a senior executive travelled all the way to Las Vegas to meet officials from another state agency.
Údarás na Gaeltachta said a trip in April 2007 was for a meeting with the IDA – which has offices and staff all over Ireland.
Chairman of the Dáil’s Public Accounts Committee (PAC), Bernard Allen, yesterday asked officials from the Department of Gaeltacht Affairs: "What would be the purpose of a meeting between the IDA and Údarás na Gaeltachta in Vegas? Did alarm bells ring at all in your department?"
The total cost of the trip came to more than €5,000, including €3,839 for transatlantic business class flights, €1,000 for internal US flights and €831 for two nights in a hotel for which no receipt was submitted.
A further €30,000 was spent on seven different trips by senior officials to Halifax in Canada between 2007 and 2008 to observe a seaweed production plant.
Just before Christmas 2007, two officials travelled to Boston and New York and claimed $85 expenses for a limo. The purpose of the trip was "following up contacts with IDA offices".
The Irish language body tasked with bringing investment to Gaeltacht areas, splurged at least €175,000 on executive travel throughout 2007 and 2008 including New York, Chicago, San Francisco and Shanghai.
In June 2008, two Údarás executives travelled to Beijing in what proved an incredibly expensive trip with a bill of €15,203 including €12,304 for their flights.
The big irony would be if any of these important trips brought any industry to the Gaeltacht, they may have accelerated the decline of Irish-speaking.0
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