Is Irish a dead language?

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Some of those Irish-speaking jobs are great:

From the Irish Examiner

The big irony would be if any of these important trips brought any industry to the Gaeltacht, they may have accelerated the decline of Irish-speaking.

WOW:eek:

You managed to find corruption in a goverment agency? You must be so proud of your self. Thats about as hard as finding the ground when you look down:rolleyes:

Nice of you to try and assoiciate the whole Irish language community with coruption though, very honest style to adopt:pac:

deise go deo

dkin wrote: »

I accept that their are jobs that require Irish in certain specialised cases and I'm not denying that. I just think is disingenuous to put down 'secretary' etc. as a job that a requires Irish as in the vast majority of cases a secretary will have no need to converse in Irish.

Do you accept that there are sectaries in Ireland that Need Irish for their Jobs? If you do then you can see why that is included on the list.

Possibly but if you read the recruitment pages for companies like Facebook.

Facebook provides its service through Irish for those that want it.




In addition to the list of jobs needing Irish.

Raidio Presenter
(just so you know, that is on more than one raidio station;))

catbear

Ok, if there's a demand for Irish language jobs then there exists the economic conditions for Irish language to be funded private and not by the general taxpayer. I'm for an opt out.

deise go deo

catbear wrote: »

Ok, if there's a demand for Irish language jobs then there exists the economic conditions for Irish language to be funded private and not by the general taxpayer. I'm for an opt out.

So if there are Jobs for Irish speakers then the State shouldent fund Irish?

There are Jobs for English speakers, Should people have to pey for all the services they recieve from the state through English?

catbear

I'm asking for an opt out. I respect people wanting to learn whatever language they want. If I had a choice I'd like a tax refund against something else like health care costs. Your priority is not my responsibility! Grow up and support whatever language you want to without being a burden on others.

deise go deo

catbear wrote: »

I'm asking for an opt out. I respect people wanting to learn whatever language they want. If I had a choice I'd like a tax refund against something else like health care costs. Your priority is not my responsibility! Grow up and support whatever language you want to without being a burden on others.

Im not sick, Should I get an opt out of paying for the health care system?
Their disease is not my responcibility, Grow up and pay for your own Health care.

catbear

Which can I live without, health care or a language that has no impact upon my life yet my taxes supports a language education system that's failed for 80 years.

I choose my health.

I am not anti Irish language, I have friends who I encourage to create events for themselves based around the Irish language. I want value for money. I will not pay for another 80 years of money being wasted on a system that does not work.

Now grow up you big child.

Cú Giobach

catbear wrote: »

I'm asking for an opt out. I respect people wanting to learn whatever language they want. If I had a choice I'd like a tax refund against something else like health care costs. Your priority is not my responsibility! Grow up and support whatever language you want to without being a burden on others.

So we should be able to choose exactly what the government spends each of our individual contributions on. Now wouldn't that be ever so slightly tricky.

Rebelheart

catbear wrote: »

Now grow up you big child.

Please provide us with a list of all those things that you agree with which will avoid each of us being called a "big child" when we don't share your rather idiosyncratic views of the world.

PS: And I suppose based on your above views you'll now support taxes not being used to advance the English language in Ireland? After all, if it's popular, as you say, it can survive without state funding.

deise go deo

catbear wrote: »

Which can I live without, health care or a language that has no impact upon my life yet my taxes supports a language education system that's failed for 80 years.

I choose my health.

I am not anti Irish language, I have friends who I encourage to create events for themselves based around the Irish language. I want value for money. I will not pay for another 80 years of money being wasted on a system that does not work.

The problem is you expect Irish language and culture to pay for its self, but not English. It is supported by tax payers money. Look at RTÉ they take money from every one to support their English Language programing. Should I be allowed opt out if I dont want my money being spent on that?

Think of it this way. I never use the Luas. But I dont complain that money taken from mr in tax is spent on it because I can see that therte are people who benefit from that service.

Now grow up you big child.

Im not the one name calling:rolleyes:

astrofool

deise go deo wrote: »

The problem is you expect Irish language and culture to pay for its self, but not English. It is supported by tax payers money. Look at RTÉ they take money from every one to support their English Language programing. Should I be allowed opt out if I dont want my money being spent on that?

Think of it this way. I never use the Luas. But I dont complain that money taken from mr in tax is spent on it because I can see that therte are people who benefit from that service.



Im not the one name calling:rolleyes:

RTE take money to provide "programming" not "English programming" the fact that everyone in this country (at least every Irish person) can speak and understand English makes it the default language for programming, but, it's certainly not as a support for English.

What part of "English Culture" is being treated as a charity, rather than "Culture" (which just happens to be through English).

Same with School, there is no state mandate to teach people through English, everyone who goes to school knows English, so thats the language being used.

deise go deo

astrofool wrote: »

RTE take money to provide "programming" not "English programming" the fact that everyone in this country (at least every Irish person) can speak and understand English makes it the default language for programming, but, it's certainly not as a support for English.

What part of "English Culture" is being treated as a charity, rather than "Culture" (which just happens to be through English).

Same with School, there is no state mandate to teach people through English, everyone who goes to school knows English, so thats the language being used.

If you beleive cultural activity should not receive state support then Fine, But you are suggesting that it is ok to fund cultural activity done through English but not Irish. Why is there a difference in acceptability?

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

WOW:eek:

You managed to find corruption in a goverment agency? You must be so proud of your self. Thats about as hard as finding the ground when you look down:rolleyes:

Nice of you to try and assoiciate the whole Irish language community ....

Why do you describe this as corruption? It is not.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Why do you describe this as corruption? It is not.

Taking unnecessary trips to Los Vagas on tax payers money is far from good governance. That is true whether it is FAS, HSE or Any other public body.

Krusader

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Why do you describe this as corruption? It is not.

Would the wording "mis-use of public money" appease you better, stop being pedantic :P

deise go deo

Crosáidí wrote: »

Would the wording "mis-use of public money" appease you better, stop being pedantic :P

Thats what I meant, The waste of tax payers money for personal gain, in this case a trip to Vagas, It isent acceptable that money was, and is wasted like that.

astrofool

deise go deo wrote: »

If you beleive cultural activity should not receive state support then Fine, But you are suggesting that it is ok to fund cultural activity done through English but not Irish. Why is there a difference in acceptability?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that we particularly need to have subsidised cultural programming (irregardless of language), witness TV3/e as a privately funded Irish tv station. Also the City channel, and Setanta, all self funding.

Are you saying we shouldn't be funding any culture at all, if we dropped the Irish language bits? I think what most people here are saying is that funding Irish language culture costs a lot, and reaches a very very small audience, compared to say, putting on a west end show in a theatre.

I'd put it to you that we are spending too much on Irish language culture, and should drop this level by about 50%, turn TG4 into a regular station, with some Irish language segments on it. Remove compulsary Irish at leaving cert level (or at least allow the Uni's to set the subject entry criteria for their courses), remove the need to translate civil documents into Irish, and then re-funnel half the money saved into other Irish language projects, such as night time classes for adults, dubbing/subtitling of movies etc.

deise go deo

astrofool wrote: »

Are you saying we shouldn't be funding any culture at all, if we dropped the Irish language bits?

I am saying that it is hypocritical to be against funding for Irish language Culture but not English.

I think what most people here are saying is that funding Irish language culture costs a lot, and reaches a very very small audience, compared to say, putting on a west end show in a theatre.

Not true, TG4 reaches quite a large audience, Compared to putting on a show in a theatre

I'd put it to you that we are spending too much on Irish language culture, and should drop this level by about 50%, turn TG4 into a regular station, with some Irish language segments on it. Remove compulsary Irish at leaving cert level (or at least allow the Uni's to set the subject entry criteria for their courses), remove the need to translate civil documents into Irish, and then re-funnel half the money saved into other Irish language projects, such as night time classes for adults, dubbing/subtitling of movies etc.

So you want to cut Funding in some places and increase it in others where it would be more effective? I have no problem with that.
I dont see how cutting funding for TG4 and then use that money for dubbing films, something TG4 dose anyway would help. As for funding Night Classes then No problem, It should be done.

Krusader

To be fair to TG4, it gets a tiny fraction of a budget compared to RTÉ, yet it consistently produces better programming than its sister channel, and shows that have been on it their format has been sold to MTV for instance. All programmes aren't in Irish in TG4 and it caters for a broad spectrum of people.
To be honest I would love some free Irish classes, but I would rather see a new curriculum for Irish right through the school system and the teaching of primary school teachers through English and Irish, so they aren't overwhelmed by the language when they start working

Bottle_of_Smoke

It shouldn't even be called Irish as it is Gaelic. That's why its called Gaelige rather than Eireanneach, which is used your Passport

Dionysus

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

It shouldn't even be called Irish as it is Gaelic. That's why its called Gaelige rather than Eireanneach, which is used your Passport

Technically, this is incorrect. The Irish language has historically been known in the English language as Irish rather than 'Gaelic'. Indeed, 'Gaelic' as a name for the Irish people in the English language didn't exist: they were simply the Irish or the mere Irish. 'Gaelic' to describe the language in English became popularised following the Ossianic renaissance of James MacPhearson (1736 -1796), and then was used to denote the Gaelic language spoken in Scotland.

Éireannach means Irish person; Éireannaigh means Irish people. Therefore, the former appears on my passport at any rate. Gaeilge is the standardised spelling, in Irish, of the Irish name for the Irish language. In Irish language sources, the Irish people were the Gaeil. Éireannaigh as a name to describe all the people in Ireland, Gaeil and Gaill, in Irish language sources has been dated to the sixteenth century.

Patricia Palmer's very fine study of the Irish language, Language and Conquest in early modern Ireland (Cambridge, 2001) has numerous instances from primary historical sources of the Irish language being referred to as Irish, and none of it being referred to as 'Gaelic'. A search within that book of "Irishe" has these 19 results, all from original documents. All references to "Gaelic", in contrast, are modern references.

Enkidu

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

It shouldn't even be called Irish as it is Gaelic. That's why its called Gaelige rather than Eireanneach, which is used your Passport

The language has been known as both Irish and Gaelic in English since the time of the Anglo-Saxons. Gaelic comes from trying to be phonetically accurate in English and Irish comes from a standard practice of the Anglo-Saxons for naming languages by the people who spoke them. Both are acceptable names for Irish. The only problem is that Gaelic in its proper meaning covers Scots Gaelic and Manx Gaelic. Similar to calling Welsh "British".

Bottle_of_Smoke

Dionysus wrote: »

Technically, this is incorrect. The Irish language has historically been known in the English language as Irish rather than 'Gaelic'. Indeed, 'Gaelic' as a name for the Irish people in the English language didn't exist: they were simply the Irish or the mere Irish. 'Gaelic' to describe the language in English became popularised following the Ossianic renaissance of James MacPhearson (1736 -1796), and then was used to denote the Gaelic language spoken in Scotland.

Éireannach means Irish person; Éireannaigh means Irish people. Therefore, the former appears on my passport at any rate. Gaeilge is the standardised spelling, in Irish, of the Irish name for the Irish language. In Irish language sources, the Irish people were the Gaeil. Éireannaigh as a name to describe all the people in Ireland, Gaeil and Gaill, in Irish language sources has been dated to the sixteenth century.

Patricia Palmer's very fine study of the Irish language, Language and Conquest in early modern Ireland (Cambridge, 2001) has numerous instances from primary historical sources of the Irish language being referred to as Irish, and none of it being referred to as 'Gaelic'. A search within that book of "Irishe" has these 19 results, all from original documents. All references to "Gaelic", in contrast, are modern references.

Enkidu wrote: »

The language has been known as both Irish and Gaelic in English since the time of the Anglo-Saxons. Gaelic comes from trying to be phonetically accurate in English and Irish comes from a standard practice of the Anglo-Saxons for naming languages by the people who spoke them. Both are acceptable names for Irish. The only problem is that Gaelic in its proper meaning covers Scots Gaelic and Manx Gaelic. Similar to calling Welsh "British".

Aren't Manx and Scots Gaelic very similar to Irish Gaelic? I know Manx say Mis for name, similar to mise.

Therefore to me it is a regional dialect of the language the Gaelic people. A significant amount of Irish people are not gaels therefore I don't think ''Irish'' is a good translation. Though thanks for pointing out Eireanneach means ''Irish person''

Enkidu

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Aren't Manx and Scots Gaelic very similar to Irish Gaelic? I know Manx say Mis for name, similar to mise.

Therefore to me it is a regional dialect of the language the Gaelic people. A significant amount of Irish people are not gaels therefore I don't think ''Irish'' is a good translation. Though thanks for pointing out Eireanneach means ''Irish person''

These are good points. A lot of linguists would simply consider Scots, Manx and Irish as separate dialects of one language. Also not only are some Irish people not Gaels, but some Gaels aren't Irish.

It's an unfortunate situation because Gaelic is seen by some as a smear put on the language to make it seem backwards, while calling it Irish presents it as a purely Irish thing divorcing it from its original historical context as a language of all the Gaelic peoples.

Dionysus

Enkidu wrote: »

The language has been known as both Irish and Gaelic in English since the time of the Anglo-Saxons.

What's the earliest you can go back to find the Irish language referred to in the English language as 'Gaelic' in Ireland? I've had no luck at all finding such a reference in the medieval or early modern periods. MacPhearson's work in the late eighteenth century is the earliest I know of, and even that wasn't referring to Ireland.

Enkidu

Dionysus wrote: »

What's the earliest you can go back to find the Irish language referred to in the English language as 'Gaelic' in Ireland? I've had no luck at all finding such a reference in the medieval or early modern periods. MacPhearson's work in the late eighteenth century is the earliest I know of, and even that wasn't referring to Ireland.

There are a few earlier sources, although it was always more common to refer to it as Irish/Iryshe, e.t.c.

For example Gathelige was a common spelling in the 1400s, becoming Gathelik by the 1600s. You can find this in "The Orygynale Cronykil of Scotland, by Androw of Wyntoun."

The earliest reference to Irish along these lines comes from Old English documents in the Scots dialect or at least what would become it. Although it is a phonetic word with no standard spelling.

astrofool

deise go deo wrote: »

I am saying that it is hypocritical to be against funding for Irish language Culture but not English.

Not true, TG4 reaches quite a large audience, Compared to putting on a show in a theatre

So you want to cut Funding in some places and increase it in others where it would be more effective? I have no problem with that.
I dont see how cutting funding for TG4 and then use that money for dubbing films, something TG4 dose anyway would help. As for funding Night Classes then No problem, It should be done.

But it's funding for culture, language is irrelevant, I don't know of any funding that is for the English language itself, it's the medium through which it is conveyed, but that is only to reach the broadest audience.

TG4 also costs quite a lot more than a show in a theatre.

I want to cut funding to the language where its for a state mandate, and is wasted, and put a portion back where it can actually make a difference to the language.

Compulsary at school leaving level, no, optional adult night classes, yes.

It's also pretty silly to go and state mandate other classes to be through Irish, be realistic, whichever government imposed it would be out on it's ear. Everyone in this country knows English, to reduce a child's education to force more Irish is mind numbingly stupid (which is what would happen as kids tune out during stair as gaeilge).

Krusader

astrofool wrote: »

It's also pretty silly to go and state mandate other classes to be through Irish, be realistic, whichever government imposed it would be out on it's ear. Everyone in this country knows English, to reduce a child's education to force more Irish is mind numbingly stupid (which is what would happen as kids tune out during stair as gaeilge).

Well studies have shown that a higher percentage of kids that attend gaeilscoileanna go on to 3rd level than their english medium taught counterparts.
Now i see no harm in teaching primary school kids, drama, P.E. civics or even a bit of history through Irish and leave the technical subjects to English

astrofool

Crosáidí wrote: »

Well studies have shown that a higher percentage of kids that attend gaeilscoileanna go on to 3rd level than their english medium taught counterparts.
Now i see no harm in teaching primary school kids, drama, P.E. civics or even a bit of history through Irish and leave the technical subjects to English

I think that is less to do with Irish and more that gaeilscoileanna are better funded, and more elite than other schools (I'm sure there are similar statistics for Blackrock College and Gonzaga for example). There's also bonus points for doing the LC through Irish, so the places don't always go to the best candidate, just the minority candidate.

I do see the harm, its basically extending teaching a subject that will likely never be used past school, to the detriment of learning other subjects that may be of use after school.

If someone made me learn History (which I loved) through Irish (which I was indifferent to, but still got my honours result), I think I'd give them a right old kick in the bollocks.

deise go deo

astrofool wrote: »

I think that is less to do with Irish and more that gaeilscoileanna are better funded, and more elite than other schools (I'm sure there are similar statistics for Blackrock College and Gonzaga for example). There's also bonus points for doing the LC through Irish, so the places don't always go to the best candidate, just the minority candidate.

I do see the harm, its basically extending teaching a subject that will likely never be used past school, to the detriment of learning other subjects that may be of use after school.

If someone made me learn History (which I loved) through Irish (which I was indifferent to, but still got my honours result), I think I'd give them a right old kick in the bollocks.

Well thats you, You are presenting it as fact that teaching a subject, History for example through Irish would be of detriment to the childs education,
In the existing cases where this is done in Gaeilscoileanna it has been shown not have a detrimental effect. I find it odd therefore that you assume that it would be detrimental if done in an English medium school,

Can I ask where you are getting the notion that Gaeilscoileanna are elitist?