Is Irish a dead language?

Krusader

deise go deo wrote: »

Can I ask where you are getting the notion that Gaeilscoileanna are elitist?

And better funded aswell??

Gaeilscoileanna are usually left fighting for scraps off the government

astrofool

deise go deo wrote: »

Well thats you, You are presenting it as fact that teaching a subject, History for example through Irish would be of detriment to the childs education,
In the existing cases where this is done in Gaeilscoileanna it has been shown not have a detrimental effect. I find it odd therefore that you assume that it would be detrimental if done in an English medium school,

Can I ask where you are getting the notion that Gaeilscoileanna are elitist?

Talking personally, I moved back to Ireland at the age of 7, having missed the first three years, having to pick up Irish to learn all my subjects would have likely left me at the bottom of the class for subjects that I was good at otherwise.

More broadly, everybody in this country's mother tongue is English, kids learn it by default and it gets in on their ear, down the line, some kids have an aptitude for language and others don't, mixing that aptitude with other subjects leads to those with an aptitude for language being artificially better than other students.

More broadly again, why the f*ck would we make all our kids speak Irish more than they need to, going through this thread, most of the jobs that come out of it (the few that there are) are mostly because Irish is mandated by the state, rather than any real need, from an economic point of view, it's mind numbingly, stupid, and no worse than building our economy on a housing bubble, it's an irrelevant language from an economic point of view. It is a relevant language from a cultural point of view only.

Being Dublin based, most of the Gaeilscoileanna here are limited entry fee paying schools, making them elitist, I'm sure this skews the stats.

If Gaeilscoileanna are leading to higher grades, where everything else is equal, we have to look at why, if that why is because it's a second language being hammered into the kids, we may as well make it a useful language (e.g. French, Chinese, German, Japanese, Spanish).

Do you have any stats to back up this area?

Anyway, I can rest safe in the knowledge that no government is ever going to be stupid enough to start trying to mandate more Irish, the pendulum has definitely swung the other way.

And back to the point of culture, where is our financial cost for "English culture"? i.e. the cost we have of pushing the language, when we don't have to (and not kids learning to speak the language of the Island of Ireland in school).

deise go deo

astrofool wrote: »

Talking personally, I moved back to Ireland at the age of 7, having missed the first three years, having to pick up Irish to learn all my subjects would have likely left me at the bottom of the class for subjects that I was good at otherwise.

Well the vast majority dont miss the first three years, But in that case It would be no harder for you than it is for English speaking kids who move to another non-english speaking country and having to go to school there. It might hold you back at first but the point is that in a immersion enviorement, language is picked up easily.

More broadly, everybody in this country's mother tongue is English, kids learn it by default and it gets in on their ear, down the line, some kids have an aptitude for language and others don't, mixing that aptitude with other subjects leads to those with an aptitude for language being artificially better than other students.

Not entirely true. Im not sure what you mean by artifically better than other students.

More broadly again, why the f*ck would we make all our kids speak Irish more than they need to, going through this thread, most of the jobs that come out of it (the few that there are) are mostly because Irish is mandated by the state, rather than any real need, from an economic point of view, it's mind numbingly, stupid, and no worse than building our economy on a housing bubble, it's an irrelevant language from an economic point of view. It is a relevant language from a cultural point of view only.

There are many jobs that are artifically supported by the state, regardless of the language used in them, That dosent make them economacly irrelevant.
As for why we should make all our kids go through Irish medium education, We shouldent and we dont, However there is currently greater demand for Irish medium Education than can currently be met, That is why it should receive greater support from the government.

Being Dublin based, most of the Gaeilscoileanna here are limited entry fee paying schools, making them elitist, I'm sure this skews the stats.

I dont think there are many fee paying Gaeilscoils, Though I am open to correction on that.

If Gaeilscoileanna are leading to higher grades, where everything else is equal, we have to look at why, if that why is because it's a second language being hammered into the kids, we may as well make it a useful language (e.g. French, Chinese, German, Japanese, Spanish).

There are two problems with that,
1 there is demand for Gaeilscoileanna, not French/German/Japanese schools
2. Irish is far more usefull in this country than any of those languages.

Do you have any stats to back up this area?

What area?

Anyway, I can rest safe in the knowledge that no government is ever going to be stupid enough to start trying to mandate more Irish, the pendulum has definitely swung the other way.

Well you are entitled to your opinion.
Anyway, I dont think the State needs to mandate more Irish,
It needs to reform how it is providing Irish education as it is now and provide the funding for Irish medium Education to Expand in Line with demand.

And back to the point of culture, where is our financial cost for "English culture"? i.e. the cost we have of pushing the language, when we don't have to (and not kids learning to speak the language of the Island of Ireland in school).

You dont think the State provides Support for Culture conducted through the Medium of English?

astrofool

deise go deo wrote: »

You dont think the State provides Support for Culture conducted through the Medium of English?

That wasn't the question, which you've avoided a few times now.

Ignoring the medium that most culture is conveyed through (the fact that it's done through English is irrelevant) where is our financial cost for "English culture"?

The rest I can come back to (though most of it has been treaded previously in this thread).

deise go deo

astrofool wrote: »

That wasn't the question, which you've avoided a few times now.

Ignoring the medium that most culture is conveyed through (the fact that it's done through English is irrelevant) where is our financial cost for "English culture"?

The rest I can come back to (though most of it has been treaded previously in this thread).

That you want to see it as irrelevant dosent mean it is, Are you claiming that state support for the holding of a play in English is acceptable but not if the paly is in Irish?

del_c

astrofool wrote: »

I think that is less to do with Irish and more that gaeilscoileanna are better funded, and more elite than other schools

That's an incorrect myth. The articles which kicked this dicussion off deals with it well.
http://www.insideireland.ie/index.cfm/section/news/category/4048

e.g. re Dublin schools
"Not being that familiar with the socio-economic make up of other cities in Ireland, I looked at the location of the 31 primary level Gaelscoileanna in Dublin to see if I could shed some light on the subject.

Of the 31 schools it turns out that 16 are located in working class areas, (two each in the North Inner City, Ballymun, Tallaght and Clondalkin), eight are located in socially mixed areas (Lucan and Swords for example) and the grand total of seven are in middle class areas.

Of these seven Gaelscoileanna, three were opened during the Celtic Tiger years, one in 1995 and two in 1996.

This information is freely available to anyone with an interest in the subject, those who cry “elitism” included, at www.gaelscoileanna.ie."


So the David McWilliams "HiCo" demographic could count for a maximum of 3 out of 31 schools....just another one of his rather stupid simplifications, which tend to make his many valid arguments look silly.

Rebelheart

astrofool wrote: »

I think that is less to do with Irish and more that gaeilscoileanna are better funded

I cannot believe people are so fúckin' ignorant as to be propagating this rubbish about gaelscoileanna being better funded and having a privileged position.

In Ratoath, Co Meath, one of the fastest growing towns on this island, they have more than the required number of students to get funding from the Irish state. Local people, Irish people, have given them that support, a fact which makes a lie of so much of the abject shíte written against Irish on this thread. However, the Irish state has changed the rules and refuses to recognise the school. With funds raised in the community, the gaelscoil got up and running in September 2010: "Establishing committee chairperson Anita Sheppard said: "The school will be funded purely by voluntary donations by Irish-language organisations both in Ireland and abroad, from various community supporters and from fundraising conducted by the school's authorities and parents."(New gaelscoil opens despite lack of official recognition)

Despite popular support for gaelscoileanna in local communities across this island, no new gaelscoileanna have been given state funding since 2008. Like Ratoath, they survive on local goodwill and fundraising by Irish language organisations.

Parents press on with plans for gaelscoil

New gaelscoil opens despite lack of official recognition

So, please, stop your misinformed utterly ignorant and bigoted views of the real situation facing Irish citizens, taxpaying citizens, who wish to have their children educated through Irish. You clearly don't value this; we all get that now. We do value this. We have the right to have our children educated via Irish in Ireland. Get used to it. You're not dealing with undereducated dispossessed peasants with an inferiority complex to all things English now.

My local gaelscoil began in 1985 in a prefab of the old technical school (which had moved into a new Community College in 1979). They received no state funding - nothing. Everything came from the parents and from fundraising in the community as well as from passionate teachers giving much of their time for free. It was only, many years later, that they received funding for the school which now exists. Then, when they had the fancy new building, more students attended. But people like you patently want to keep gaelscoileanna in prefabs and in effect promote local English-language schools despite the wishes of local parents. Bigotry, nothing but bigotry.

sensibleken

while were at it. why the hell did i have to learn joined up writting. what a complete waste of time. like Irish it should be learned in spare time and not forced on kids who couldnt care less when they could be off learning a usefull subject. like shorthand or ASCII.

Krusader

Rebelheart wrote: »

In Ratoath, Co Meath, one of the fastest growing towns on this island, they have more than the required number of students to get funding from the Irish state.

And another 25 kids have registered for next September already, the community wants this, irrespective of government funding

deise go deo

Crosáidí wrote: »

And another 25 kids have registered for next September already, the community wants this, irrespective of government funding

Deirtear linn go fóill go bhfuil an Ghaeilge ina teanga marbh. Cad is gá a dhéanamh chun deireadh a chur leis sin?
Mílte a labhairt gach lá, Mílte níos mo fáil oideachais trí mheán é, mílte níos mó arís ag iarraidh í a fhoghlaim.

Yet still we are told its a dead language, What needs to be done to put an end to that sh!t?
Thousands speak it every day, Thousands more are educated through it, And thousands more again want to learn it.



.

MysticalRain

del_c wrote: »

That's an incorrect myth. The articles which kicked this dicussion off deals with it well.
http://www.insideireland.ie/index.cfm/section/news/category/4048

e.g. re Dublin schools
"Not being that familiar with the socio-economic make up of other cities in Ireland, I looked at the location of the 31 primary level Gaelscoileanna in Dublin to see if I could shed some light on the subject.

Of the 31 schools it turns out that 16 are located in working class areas, (two each in the North Inner City, Ballymun, Tallaght and Clondalkin), eight are located in socially mixed areas (Lucan and Swords for example) and the grand total of seven are in middle class areas.

Of these seven Gaelscoileanna, three were opened during the Celtic Tiger years, one in 1995 and two in 1996.

This information is freely available to anyone with an interest in the subject, those who cry “elitism” included, at www.gaelscoileanna.ie."


So the David McWilliams "HiCo" demographic could count for a maximum of 3 out of 31 schools....just another one of his rather stupid simplifications, which tend to make his many valid arguments look silly.

Well as the saying goes, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. The article mentions that many schools are built in working-class areas. So what? Just because a school is built in working-class area, that doesn't necessarily mean that the pupils attending it are primarily working-class. Gaelscoileanna draw pupils from a wide area anyway because there are so few for parents to choose from. The local gaelscoil in my hometown just happens to be built in a working-class area as well. That doesn't change the fact that it's mainly middle and upper class kids attending it. Also, just because they school is built in inner city Dublin, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's all working-class kids attending. Many areas in the inner city in recent years have been gentrified and could no longer be considered exclusively working-class.

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

Deirtear linn go fóill go bhfuil an Ghaeilge ina teanga marbh. Cad is gá a dhéanamh chun deireadh a chur leis sin?
Mílte a labhairt gach lá, Mílte níos mo fáil oideachais trí mheán é, mílte níos mó arís ag iarraidh í a fhoghlaim.

Yet still we are told its a dead language, What needs to be done to put an end to that sh!t?
Thousands speak it every day, Thousands more are educated through it, And thousands more again want to learn it.



.

The key word here is "thousands". As opposed to the hundreds of thousands of Irish kids attending mainstream English-speaking schools. A few thousand kids attending Irish schools every year is never going to amount to a critical mass of people which will resurrect the language in any meaningful way. It sort of like claiming the record industry is doing really well these days just because lots of people are buying vinyl records.

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

The key word here is "thousands". As opposed to the hundreds of thousands of Irish kids attending mainstream English-speaking schools. A few thousand kids attending Irish schools every year is never going to amount to a critical mass of people which will resurrect the language in any meaningful way. It sort of like claiming the record industry is doing really well these days just because lots of people are buying vinyl records.

In 1972 there were ten Primary schools and 5 Secondary Schools in Ireland(South of the border) Run Through the medium of Irish

In 2010 there are 139 Primary schools and 36 Secondary Schools in Ireland run through The medium of Irish.

Even with that increase Demand is still far ahead of supply. Are these the figures of a passing fad?

Just so you know its tens of thousands every year.

astrofool

I usually see parents send their kids to Gaelscoil when they are in the wrong catchment area for the local national school, it's certainly not love for the language that is influencing it.

This of course has a knock on effect, the kids going to the schools come from more active, better off families, leading to a better education environment for the children.

The demand is for good schools, not for Irish schools, the fact that the Irish school is good is what leads to the demand.

I'm lucky enough to be in the catchment area for a very highly rated primary school, but if I wasn't a Gaelscoil is something I would consider.

Does anyone have any statistics on this, by school for example? showing higher marks coming from gaelscoils vs. public vs. private

astrofool

deise go deo wrote: »

That you want to see it as irrelevant dosent mean it is, Are you claiming that state support for the holding of a play in English is acceptable but not if the paly is in Irish?

I'm saying that support for holding the play is acceptable, the language used should be irrelevant.

Please show me some figures from the government that is for promotion of the English language, over other languages, until you have that, I'm calling bullsh*t on your notion that the government is spending money promoting the English language.

Surely there is at least a quango you can find, similar to the many for promoting Irish to back up your point.

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

Well as the saying goes, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. The article mentions that many schools are built in working-class areas. So what? Just because a school is built in working-class area, that doesn't necessarily mean that the pupils attending it are primarily working-class. Gaelscoileanna draw pupils from a wide area anyway because there are so few for parents to choose from. The local gaelscoil in my hometown just happens to be built in a working-class area as well. That doesn't change the fact that it's mainly middle and upper class kids attending it. Also, just because they school is built in inner city Dublin, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's all working-class kids attending. Many areas in the inner city in recent years have been gentrified and could no longer be considered exclusively working-class.

The question was where are you getting the notion that Gaeilscoils are elitist or better funded?

deise go deo

astrofool wrote: »

I'm saying that support for holding the play is acceptable, the language used should be irrelevant.

Please show me some figures from the government that is for promotion of the English language, over other languages, until you have that, I'm calling bullsh*t on your notion that the government is spending money promoting the English language.

Surely there is at least a quango you can find, similar to the many for promoting Irish to back up your point.

Thats simply a strawman argument, I never said that the government promoted the English Language, I said that they Supported Cultural activity through the Medium of English.
I then asked if the support for Cultural activity through English is acceptable, why is it not for cultural Activity Through the medium of Irish?

caseyann

astrofool wrote: »

I usually see parents send their kids to Gaelscoil when they are in the wrong catchment area for the local national school, it's certainly not love for the language that is influencing it.

This of course has a knock on effect, the kids going to the schools come from more active, better off families, leading to a better education environment for the children.

The demand is for good schools, not for Irish schools, the fact that the Irish school is good is what leads to the demand.

I'm lucky enough to be in the catchment area for a very highly rated primary school, but if I wasn't a Gaelscoil is something I would consider.

Does anyone have any statistics on this, by school for example? showing higher marks coming from gaelscoils vs. public vs. private

Is that so?

There is intense competition for places in a gaelscoil, with some parents facing three-year waiting lists to enroll their children.

Students in gaelscoileanna perform better in tests than other students, performing well even in English. “Pupils take advantage of language acquisition skills they pick up from being immersed in Irish at an early age. That kicks in when they start learning to read and they transfer their reading skills from Irish to English,” said Dónal Ó hAiniféin, principal of a gaelscoil in County Clare.


http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/education/october-08/Ireland-s--Gaelscoileanna--Creating-Educational-Divide.html


What makes me sick now is people saying Irish schools are snobbery to non Irish.I mean how the hell does that work?
If the child isnt Irish and parents dont want to let their children learn Irish why would they be wanting to go to that school in first place
Is it a case you would want Irish over thrown for non Irish.I am sorry that is bull****.
If they want their kids in all Irish speaking school then ofc they should be allowed but they go on list like everyone else.

“People don’t realize I’m not from here when I speak in Irish,” said a Czech immigrant who learned Irish. “A lot of Irish people who speak Irish speak it as a second language and so we are all on the same footing. I fit in better in Irish.”

Bottle_of_Smoke

MysticalRain wrote: »

Well as the saying goes, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. The article mentions that many schools are built in working-class areas. So what? Just because a school is built in working-class area, that doesn't necessarily mean that the pupils attending it are primarily working-class. Gaelscoileanna draw pupils from a wide area anyway because there are so few for parents to choose from. The local gaelscoil in my hometown just happens to be built in a working-class area as well. That doesn't change the fact that it's mainly middle and upper class kids attending it. Also, just because they school is built in inner city Dublin, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's all working-class kids attending. Many areas in the inner city in recent years have been gentrified and could no longer be considered exclusively working-class.

Exactly. Like saying Belvedere college is working class school because of its location

Bottle_of_Smoke

astrofool wrote: »

I usually see parents send their kids to Gaelscoil when they are in the wrong catchment area for the local national school, it's certainly not love for the language that is influencing it.

This of course has a knock on effect, the kids going to the schools come from more active, better off families, leading to a better education environment for the children.

The demand is for good schools, not for Irish schools, the fact that the Irish school is good is what leads to the demand.

I'm lucky enough to be in the catchment area for a very highly rated primary school, but if I wasn't a Gaelscoil is something I would consider.

Does anyone have any statistics on this, by school for example? showing higher marks coming from gaelscoils vs. public vs. private

To be honest I'd go out of my way to send my kids to a gaelscoil. They're getting a free language.

Not to do with grades they get. That's debunked the reality is your grades are more linked to where you live than what kind of school you go to.

Nor is it a chuckyism thing. I've previously stated I utterly reject the notion Irish Gaelic is Ireland's national language.

It is just that it is simply awesome to be able to speak more than one language, makes it easier to learn further languages too.

deise go deo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Exactly. Like saying Belvedere college is working class school because of its location

all very well and good but I am still waiting for something to support the notion that Gaeilscoileanna are Eleitist

Enkidu

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Nor is it a chuckyism thing.

Sorry to ask this, but I've seen this word used several times in this thread and I don't know what it means. I asked a few friends and they didn't know what it meant either. So what is chuckyism or being a chucky?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Enkidu wrote: »

Sorry to ask this, but I've seen this word used several times in this thread and I don't know what it means. I asked a few friends and they didn't know what it meant either. So what is chuckyism or being a chucky?

Irish republicanism. From ''Tiocfaidh(Chucky) ar la'''- potentially derogatory but would depend on the context.

Enkidu

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Irish republicanism. From ''Tiocfaidh(Chucky) ar la'''- potentially derogatory but would depend on the context.

Thanks, I don't know how I didn't hear about it. I thought everybody was making obscure references to that horror film with the doll in it.

Bottle_of_Smoke

deise go deo wrote: »

all very well and good but I am still waiting for something to support the notion that Gaeilscoileanna are Eleitist

It probably stems from jealousy and I'd say on average parents of children at Gaelscoilleanna earn more than other schools.

Though earning more does not = elitist. I would be against the use of that term for Gaelscoilleanna myself.

Gael

While we're on the subject, some of you may be interested to know that the Irish-language version of Scrabble has just been released by Glór na nGael:

http://www.mclove.netdirector.co.uk/product/Scrabble_as_Gaeilge_scrabbleG

Irish-language version of Monopoly is also in the pipeline by the same crowd.

caseyann

Gael wrote: »

While we're on the subject, some of you may be interested to know that the Irish-language version of Scrabble has just been released by Glór na nGael:

http://www.mclove.netdirector.co.uk/product/Scrabble_as_Gaeilge_scrabbleG

Irish-language version of Monopoly is also in the pipeline by the same crowd.

We have it in our house its so much fun

deise go deo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

It probably stems from jealousy and I'd say on average parents of children at Gaelscoilleanna earn more than other schools.

Though earning more does not = elitist. I would be against the use of that term for Gaelscoilleanna myself.

Why be Jealous? They dont get more funding, The New ones dont get any funding, If you want to go to one but there isent one in your area, either put up with it of do something about it by setting one up yourself.

Whats to be jealous about?

Bottle_of_Smoke

deise go deo wrote: »

Why be Jealous? They dont get more funding, The New ones dont get any funding, If you want to go to one but there isent one in your area, either put up with it of do something about it by setting one up yourself.

Whats to be jealous about?

They're probably jealous that they can't speak Gaelic and justify this to themselves by attacking gaelscoilleana

Gael

Yes, gaelscoileanna are so elitist that they struggle to gain recognition and funding from the state and have to depend on charitable donations from others to survive financially. :rolleyes:

http://gaelscoilrathto.ie/english/history.php

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0719/1224275020308.html

http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/town-opens-unofficial-gaelscoil-2316868.html

Since they're "elitist", one would presume that the "elite" would have the educational authorities bending over backwards to accommodate them. Isn't that the nature of what an elite is?