Is Irish a dead language?

Iwasfrozen

Gael wrote: »

Yes, gaelscoileanna are so elitist that they struggle to gain recognition and funding from the state and have to depend on charitable donations from others to survive financially. :rolleyes:

http://gaelscoilrathto.ie/english/history.php

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0719/1224275020308.html

http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/town-opens-unofficial-gaelscoil-2316868.html

Since they're "elitist", one would presume that the "elite" would have the educational authorities bending over backwards to accommodate them. Isn't that the nature of what an elite is?

Nope, being elite is having an advantage over someone else.

deise go deo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

They're probably jealous that they can't speak Gaelic and justify this to themselves by attacking gaelscoilleana

Tá siad gur mian leo Gaeilge a labhairt sa mhéid is go ionsaí siad é? Dealraíonn sé aisteach.Bíonn ranganna Gaeilge ar fud na Tíre, má raibh suin againn i gaeilge a labhairt nach mbeadh siad ag foglaim é?
They want to speak Irish so they attack it? Seems strange. There are Irish classes around the country, If they did want to be able to speak Irish would they not just learn it?

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Nope, being elite is having an advantage over someone else.

Is é pribhléid
Cad é an buntáiste nach bhfuil aon mhaoiniú ón stát?

Thats privilage.
Whats the advantage of having no funding from the state?

Bottle_of_Smoke

deise go deo wrote: »

Tá siad gur mian leo Gaeilge a labhairt sa mhéid is go ionsaí siad é? Dealraíonn sé aisteach.Bíonn ranganna Gaeilge ar fud na Tíre, má raibh suin againn i gaeilge a labhairt nach mbeadh siad ag foglaim é?
They want to speak Irish so they attack it? Seems strange. There are Irish classes around the country, If they did want to be able to speak Irish would they not just learn it?

Learning a language takes time and it is intimidating for a lot of people who aren't bi-lingual. So some individuals attack people who can. Much like someone who's not good at school will retaliate by bullying the nerds.

I'm sensing an antagonistic tone from you. I hope you don't think I'm trying to justify the elitist description as I'm completely against it.

deise go deo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Learning a language takes time and it is intimidating for a lot of people who aren't bi-lingual. So some individuals attack people who can. Much like someone who's not good at school will retaliate by bullying the nerds.

I'm sensing an antagonistic tone from you. I hope you don't think I'm trying to justify the elitist description as I'm completely against it.

Tá a fhios agam ar an iarracht a thógann sé chun teanga a fhoghlaim.
Ach is pointe aisteach a ghlacadh, Rud feadh na línte más rud é nach feidir liom labhairt sé, nach feidir leat freisin.

I am well aware of the time and effort it takes to learn a language. It just seems like an odd reaction to have, Something along the lines of if I cant speak it neither can you.


Níl mé ag iarraidh a bheith freasúla tarlú, Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil tú ag iarradh a rá go bhfuill gaeilscoileanna éilíteach.;)

I am not trying to be antagonistic, I dont think you are trying to say Gaeilscoileanna are Elitist.

astrofool

deise go deo wrote: »

Thats simply a strawman argument, I never said that the government promoted the English Language, I said that they Supported Cultural activity through the Medium of English.
I then asked if the support for Cultural activity through English is acceptable, why is it not for cultural Activity Through the medium of Irish?

The government supports cultural activity.

The problem is that the government then has to support Irish cultural activity (TG4) specifically.

For other cultural activity the language does not matter, I've seen plays in French, Opera's via Italian, whatever made sense for the subject matter.

What happens with Irish is that we have the state mandate and finance cultural activity specifically for Irish, because it would not occur otherwise, due to low levels of demand (again, the ratings that TG4 get would not sustain another channel).

I am saying support for cultural activity is acceptable, singling out Irish as a special case should not be, this should be based on demand for the output (and there would be a low latent demand for this, but probably not of the level that we produce today given the funds the taxpayer puts toward it).

If the sole benefit of GaelScoil is getting a second language by default, then would it not be better to learn a language with more use beyond school? e.g. French/Chinese/German schools

deise go deo

astrofool wrote: »

The problem is that the government then has to support Irish cultural activity (TG4) specifically.

What happens with Irish is that we have the state mandate and finance cultural activity specifically for Irish, because it would not occur otherwise, due to low levels of demand (again, the ratings that TG4 get would not sustain another channel).

Cad iad na scór féachana do TG4?
What are the ratrings for TG4?

If the sole benefit of GaelScoil is getting a second language by default, then would it not be better to learn a language with more use beyond school? e.g. French/Chinese/German schools

Iarraidh ar na tuismitheoirí, Is é an t-éileamh ann do Gaeilscoileanna, Níl sé ar fáil do scoileanna a reáchtáil trí theangacha Eachtracha. Ar aon nós,
Is Ghaeilge de réir teanga i bhfad níos áisiúla don duine sa tír seo. Níos mo phosteanna, Deiseanna níos mo lena n-uasid.

Ask the parents, The demand is there for Gaeilscoileanna. It is not for schools run through Foreign languages.
Anyway, Irish is by far the more usefull language to someone in this country. More Jobs, Oppertunity for use.

astrofool

deise go deo wrote: »

What are the ratrings for TG4?

Ask the parents, The demand is there for Gaeilscoileanna. It is not for schools run through Foreign languages.
Anyway, Irish is by far the more usefull language to someone in this country. More Jobs, Oppertunity for use.

TG4 has about 3% of the Irish audience, and cost the tax payer about €20m (2007 figures).

Irish is not "by far the most useful language" otherwise we wouldn't be hearing stories of people never using Irish past secondary school. It's there as a checklist item for some jobs, and required for very very few. There is far far more jobs available to people, even within Ireland (via localisation of products, and dealing with our nearest neighbours) for French or German speakers.

deise go deo

astrofool wrote: »

TG4 has about 3% of the Irish audience, and cost the tax payer about €20m (2007 figures).

Cé mhéad sin mar % i Gcomparáid le RTÉ?
How much is that as a % compared to RTÉ?

Irish is not "by far the most useful language" otherwise we wouldn't be hearing stories of people never using Irish past secondary school. It's there as a checklist item for some jobs, and required for very very few. There is far far more jobs available to people, even within Ireland (via localisation of products, and dealing with our nearest neighbours) for French or German speakers.

Uimhreacha le do thoil.
Ar ndóigh, Tá daoine nach bhfuil a úsáid é tar éis na scoile, ach deis do dhaoine le Gaeilge a bheith i bhfad níos mó Gaeilge a úsáid ná daoine le Gearmáinis nó Seapáinis
Numbers Please.
Of coures there are people who dont use it after school, Still people with Irish have far more oppertunity to use Irish than people with German or Japenease.

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

The question was where are you getting the notion that Gaeilscoils are elitist or better funded?

I haven't made a comment about Irish schools being "better funded".

Well maybe it's because I actually attended some of the schools myself (on summer courses). Neither myself, nor my classmates were working class by any stretch.

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

In 1972 there were ten Primary schools and 5 Secondary Schools in Ireland(South of the border) Run Through the medium of Irish

In 2010 there are 139 Primary schools and 36 Secondary Schools in Ireland run through The medium of Irish.

Even with that increase Demand is still far ahead of supply. Are these the figures of a passing fad?

Just so you know its tens of thousands every year.

I would have to question your statistics. Back in the 1960s, my father was taught through Irish for most of his primary schooling and about half of his secondary schooling. So I doubt very much if there were only 10 Irish speaking national schools back in 1972.

I doubt if Irish in its present context would even rise to the level of a "passing fad". Whatever way you spin it, 20,000 pupils is a miniscule number in the greater scheme of things

MysticalRain

Gael wrote: »

Yes, gaelscoileanna are so elitist that they struggle to gain recognition and funding from the state and have to depend on charitable donations from others to survive financially. :rolleyes:

I think you pretty much answered your own question there.

It's only the middle and upper class parents who can afford to make charitable donations towards the schools their children attend. Most working-class parents wouldn't be able to afford to make those sorts of donations in the first place, and have more practical concerns to worry about besides making sure their children can speak fluent gaelic.

Focalbhach

MysticalRain wrote: »

I would have to question your statistics. Back in the 1960s, my father was taught through Irish for most of his primary schooling and about half of his secondary schooling. So I doubt very much if there were only 10 Irish speaking national schools back in 1972.

This might seem an obvious question, but... did you father go to one of the 10 Irish-medium national schools?

Krusader

MysticalRain wrote: »

I think you pretty much answered your own question there.

It's only the middle and upper class parents who can afford to make charitable donations towards the schools their children attend. Most working-class parents wouldn't be able to afford to make those sorts of donations in the first place, and have more practical concerns to worry about besides making sure their children can speak fluent gaelic.

Have you ever heard of fundraisers, raffles and so on .
For some people their kids being able to speak Gaelic is a practical concern is that so hard to believe.

MysticalRain

Leto wrote: »

This might seem an obvious question, but... did you father go to one of the 10 Irish-medium national schools?

It's possible that there were only 10 Irish medium national schools in the country at time. But I think it's a strange coincidence that he just happened to to be attending one of the 10 (I never heard him tell me that the school billed itself as an Irish medium school either. Teaching through Irish just happened to be the done thing at the time because it was a rural area and a lot of people living there spoke the language).

Plus I would have thought that there would have been a lot more than 10 Irish speaking primary schools in the Gealteacht areas alone.

MysticalRain

Crosáidí wrote: »

Have you ever heard of fundraisers, raffles and so on .

I don't see what's so confusing here? As others have pointed out, Irish medium schools don't receive as much funding from the government. So they have to rely on more donations from parents. Working classes don't have as much money to spend on education as middle classes do. Hence why it's a selective group that attends the schools.

For some people their kids being able to speak Gaelic is a practical concern is that so hard to believe.

Sure, and some parents like to send their kids to pony riding lessons as well. But those kinds of people are typically not working class.

Krusader

MysticalRain wrote: »

I don't see what's so confusing here? As others have pointed out, Irish medium schools don't receive as much funding from the government. So they have to rely on more donations from parents. Working classes don't have as much money to spend on education as middle classes do. Hence why it's a selective group that attends the schools.


Sure, and some parents like to send their kids to pony riding lessons as well. But those kinds of people are typically not working class.

working class does not equal poor, you know.
A whole community of people and businesses can give charitbly to a setting up of a Gaeilscoil through fundraising, it's not just gaelic speakers that support the Irish language.

Focalbhach

MysticalRain wrote: »

It's possible that there were only 10 Irish medium national schools in the country at time. But I think it's a strange coincidence that he just happened to to be attending one of the 10 (I never heard him tell me that the school billed itself as an Irish medium school either. Teaching through Irish just happened to be the done thing at the time because it was a rural area and a lot of people living there spoke the language).

With respect, I don't see how that's a strange coincidence. 10 schools represent a fair number of pupils, and I'm not sure why you think your father couldn't have been one of them. Someone had to be.

For example, if we know that 20 people in the country put orange juice instead of milk on their cornflakes and you meet someone who does, you have in all likelihood met one of the 20. It doesn't follow that the figures must be wrong just because you happen to have come across a statistically unlikely occurrence.

MysticalRain wrote: »

Plus I would have thought that there would have been a lot more than 10 Irish speaking primary schools in the Gealteacht areas alone.

As far as I'm aware schools are classified as English-medium, Irish-medium, or Gaeltacht - 'Irish-medium' being schools outside Gaeltacht areas where Irish is the primary language of instruction. Perhaps deise go deo could clarify if this is the case with the figures s/he provided.

MysticalRain

Crosáidí wrote: »

working class does not equal poor, you know.

I never said it was. "Less well-off" and therefore less likely to spend money on non-essential activities might be a better way of putting it.

A whole community of people and businesses can give charitbly to a setting up of a Gaeilscoil through fundraising, it's not just gaelic speakers that support the Irish language.

Really? What businesses? I thought most Irish businesses were struggling to survive these days? And you're telling me they have plenty of money to give to charity?

Cú Giobach

MysticalRain wrote: »

Plus I would have thought that there would have been a lot more than 10 Irish speaking primary schools in the Gealteacht areas alone.

Those figures are for schools outside Gaeltacht areas. (I also posted these numbers earlier in the thread).

Krusader

MysticalRain wrote: »

Really? What businesses? I thought most Irish businesses were struggling to survive these days? And you're telling me they have plenty of money to give to charity?

Yes, the country's in dire straits but are you telling me you haven't thrown €2 in a bucket to a guy outside a shop or bought a raffle ticket in a pub over the last year

caseyann

Crosáidí wrote: »

working class does not equal poor, you know.
A whole community of people and businesses can give charitbly to a setting up of a Gaeilscoil through fundraising, it's not just gaelic speakers that support the Irish language.

People ask for links and it quite clearly states the increase and demand for Irish schools by parents in Ireland.They have raised the funds for these Irish schools to be opened themselves.People just dont seem to get it.Irish language is apart of this country and who we are and they just dont seem to want that for themselves or their kids.So be it.Let them send their kids to schools with no Irish no religion and let them teach British history and history of other countries and other languages that half the kids wont use anyway :P and we just keep Irish language etc.. alive for ourselves.

MysticalRain

Crosáidí wrote: »

Yes, the country's in dire straits but are you telling me you haven't thrown €2 in a bucket to a guy outside a shop or bought a raffle ticket in a pub over the last year

You need a pretty big bucket to fund an entire school, or even the cost of a single teacher's salary these days.

Krusader

Well the Irish speaking community try and support each other whenever possible, buckets would be easily filled.

MysticalRain

caseyann wrote: »

People ask for links and it quite clearly states the increase and demand for Irish schools by parents in Ireland.They have raised the funds for these Irish schools to be opened themselves.People just dont seem to get it.Irish language is apart of this country and who we are and they just dont seem to want that for themselves or their kids.So be it.

I don't have any problem with parents who wish to send their kids to an Irish speaking school. That's their *choice*. Or at least their choice on behalf of their own children. As people have pointed out time and time again on this thread, nobody wants to kill the Irish language Irish (the so-called promoters of the language have spent the last 80 years doing that much more successfully than any critic of the language). The only point of argument here is that a) Irish should not be compulsory, and that it should not receive as much state funding as it does. If the Irish language is as popular as people here are claiming, then it should be more than able to survive when subjected to the full rigor of the free market.

Let them send their kids to schools with no Irish no religion and let them teach British history and history of other countries and other languages that half the kids wont use anyway and we just keep Irish language etc.. alive for ourselves.

That's your choice, and you are perfectly entitled to do that. As a secular minded liberal who works in the knowledge economy sector, I would love to be able to send my kids to a school that gives my children a progressive education orientated towards science, technology, and further integration with the rest of the world than one which spends a disproportionate amount of time attending indoctrinate children in the superstitious beliefs of a bunch of Iron Age tribes people. As well trying to perpetuate the kind of De Valera era backward parochialism which has served our land so well. That choice seems like a no-brainer to me.

The key word here is of course "choice".

dubhthach

MysticalRain wrote: »

I would love to be able to send my kids to a school that gives my children a progressive education orientated towards science, technology, and further integration with the rest of the world than one which spends a disproportionate amount of time attending indoctrinate children in the superstitious beliefs of a bunch of Iron Age tribes people. As well trying to perpetuate the kind of De Valera era backward parochialism which has served our land so well. That choice seems like a no-brainer to me.

The key word here is of course "choice".

Indoctrination in "superstitious beliefs" of no-doubt backward "Iron age tribes blah blah De Valera, blah blah backward.

I could easily argue that learning French and spainish was backward because both these languages come from a certain Iron age tribe (The Romans) :rolleyes:

Your argument is incredibly insulting. Irish is no more a "backward" (what's that mean anyways?) language then Dutch or Czech or any other European language. All of which by the way descend from languages that were spoken during the Iron age.

MysticalRain

dubhthach wrote: »

Indoctrination in "superstitious beliefs" of no-doubt backward "Iron age tribes blah blah De Valera, blah blah backward.

I could easily argue that learning French and spainish was backward because both these languages come from a certain Iron age tribe (The Romans) :rolleyes:

Your argument is incredibly insulting. Irish is no more a "backward" (what's that mean anyways?) language then Dutch or Czech or any other European language. All of which by the way descend from languages that were spoken during the Iron age.

You might actually have a point if you were referring to the long dead language which the Romans actually spoke i.e. Latin. Unlike Latin or Irish, French and Spanish are spoken by hundreds of millions of people around the world and in great demand from an economic perspective. An education system which teaches those languages is much more likely to produce employable graduates in a modern context than teaching Irish ever could.

If you want to defend the Irish education system's excessive focus on religious indoctrination, then go right ahead. Just remember how well that strategy worked out for education in the Islamic world.

Dionysus

Gael wrote: »

While we're on the subject, some of you may be interested to know that the Irish-language version of Scrabble has just been released by Glór na nGael:

http://www.mclove.netdirector.co.uk/product/Scrabble_as_Gaeilge_scrabbleG

Irish-language version of Monopoly is also in the pipeline by the same crowd.

Excellent. Thanks so much for this link. Never knew anything about it. Really appreciated. Let us know when Monopoly as gaeilge is out.

caseyann

MysticalRain wrote: »

I don't have any problem with parents who wish to send their kids to an Irish speaking school. That's their *choice*. Or at least their choice on behalf of their own children. As people have pointed out time and time again on this thread, nobody wants to kill the Irish language Irish (the so-called promoters of the language have spent the last 80 years doing that much more successfully than any critic of the language). The only point of argument here is that a) Irish should not be compulsory, and that it should not receive as much state funding as it does. If the Irish language is as popular as people here are claiming, then it should be more than able to survive when subjected to the full rigor of the free market.

And other countries dont fund languages of their own in their schools or foreign languages,because they know how to spell words by magic and Irish kids are meant to be able to construct Irish sentences by magic?Or that should be down to the parents?



That's your choice, and you are perfectly entitled to do that. As a secular minded liberal who works in the knowledge economy sector, I would love to be able to send my kids to a school that gives my children a progressive education orientated towards science, technology, and further integration with the rest of the world than one which spends a disproportionate amount of time attending indoctrinate children in the superstitious beliefs of a bunch of Iron Age tribes people. As well trying to perpetuate the kind of De Valera era backward parochialism which has served our land so well. That choice seems like a no-brainer to me.

The key word here is of course "choice".

It sounds to me sorry if i am mistaken,you are militarizing Irish language in your own mind and turning it into something it is not.
No one said that they should not make it compulsory in some schools so you can send your kids to that school.And for the parents who see great importance on Irish send their kids to schools were Irish is readily available for them to learn.Along with all the other subjects they are taught in school which are state funded
i know a few subjects i would have liked not to have to take which were compulsory in school and quite frankly i will never use and had no interest in at all.

Focalbhach

MysticalRain wrote: »

If you want to defend the Irish education system's excessive focus on religious indoctrination, then go right ahead. Just remember how well that strategy worked out for education in the Islamic world.

What are you talking about here? What connection are you trying to make between religious education and Irish-language education?