Is Irish a dead language?

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

No problem. Hopefully I will convince the other poster that I never said Irish was a "fad" either.

Is your position that Irish is not even good enough to be a fad? That is how your comments came accross to me, A simple answer to the question would clear it up.


''This newfangled gaelic language fad'' Your words are they not?

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

Before I forget, What have you to go along whit this nugget of insight? It seams to me you will happily sling any half baked argument against Irish.

Why would I even have to explain a point like that to you? Isn't it obvious? Do I have to mention Peig again? I don't know one single person who believes that Irish is taught in an appropriate manner in school these days. That point has been raised several times in this thread already.

It goes beyond the school system too. Perhaps if less money was spent on spending millions on translating documents that nobody reads, and instead spent on hiring people like Des Bishop and Hector to promote the language, it wouldn't be in the perilous state that it is currently in.

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

Is your position that Irish is not even good enough to be a fad? That is how your comments came accross to me, A simple answer to the question would clear it up.

Yes, that is my position. Irish would only amount to a genuine fad if all of a sudden, half the country started speaking it. It is nowhere near that level, and is unlikely to ever be. As I would describe it, Irish has been dying a slow lingering death for the last 150 years.

''This newfangled gaelic language fad'' Your words are they not?

That was a flippant rephrasing of your own words. It was not a reflection of my own opinion on Irish.

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

Why would I even have to explain a point like that to you? Isn't it obvious? Do I have to mention Peig again? I don't know one single person who believes that Irish is taught in an appropriate manner in school these days. That point has been raised several times in this thread already.

I know, I have raised it several times.:rolleyes:

It goes beyond the school system too. Perhaps if less money was spent on spending millions on translating documents that nobody reads, and instead spent on hiring people like Des Bishop and Hector to promote the language, it wouldn't be in the perilous state that it is currently in.

Bull, Millions are not spent translating documents. Anyway, that was the government, not the Irish language lobby that decided to do that. We already have people like des and hector, their names are des and hector.;)

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

Yes, that is my position. Irish would only amount to a genuine fad if all of a sudden, half the country started speaking it. It is nowhere near that level, and is unlikely to ever be. As I would describe it, Irish has been dying a slow lingering death for the last 150 years.


That was a flippant rephrasing of your own words. It was not a reflection of my own opinion on Irish.

So Irish has been dying for at least 150 years then? And yet Irish medium education is the fastest growing sector in Irish education. Even when not supported by the state. Square that circle for me.

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

Bull, Millions are not spent translating documents.

I believe these points have already been posted in the thread...

State pays €1.8m to translate reports into Irish
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-pays-836418m-to-translate-reports-into-irish-1924948.html

€700k Teaching Irish Abroad
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-pays-8364700000-to-teach-irish-in-colleges-overseas-1713709.html

Anyway, that was the government, not the Irish language lobby that decided to do that.

That's a very dishonest argument to make considering the fact that the government is doing this at the behest of the Irish language lobby.

We already have people like des and hector, their names are des and hector.;)

I haven't seen Des doing much promotion of the Irish language lately, and perhaps Hector could expand his role outside of his TV career if he hasn't done so already.

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

So Irish has been dying for at least 150 years then? And yet Irish medium education is the fastest growing sector in Irish education. Even when not supported by the state. Square that circle for me.

That argument is the equivalent of saying climate change isn't happening because the last few years have been colder than the previous ones. It is of course ignoring the prevailing long term trend.

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

I believe these points have already been posted in the thread...

State pays €1.8m to translate reports into Irish
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-pays-836418m-to-translate-reports-into-irish-1924948.html

I dont believe I was in favor of that spending then, and im not now. If there is demand for the Document then fair enough but there are plenty of things more desirving of funding than the translation of unread documents.

€700k Teaching Irish Abroad
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-pays-8364700000-to-teach-irish-in-colleges-overseas-1713709.html

What has this to do with translating documents?

That's a very dishonest argument to make considering the fact that the government is doing this at the behest of the Irish language lobby.

Source? I have yet to see an Irish language enthusiast suggest that spending money translating documents into Irish that nobody reads is an effective use of money.

I haven't seen Des doing much promotion of the Irish language lately, and perhaps Hector could expand his role outside of his TV career if he hasn't done so already.

So you want people like Des and Hector who dont do what Des and Hector do?

Anyway. Des is involved with the Meath Gaelthacht. They are promoting a new online learning system for Gaeilscoils to use. As for Hector. He is working with TG4, Its up to them really what he dose.

deise go deo

That argument is the equivalent of saying climate change isn't happening because the last few years have been colder than the previous ones. It is of course ignoring the prevailing long term trend.

The prevailing longterm trend in Irish education is consistent growth in Irish medium Education.
the demand for Irish medium Education is still far ahead of supply.
If the growth had only been over the last few years then maybe the comparison would stack up, but the growth has been steady over 30 years and is showing no signs of slacking off just yet.

MysticalRain

What has this to do with translating documents?

Not directly relevant. But symptomatic of the overall waste of money when it comes to certain aspects of state spending the Irish language.

Source? I have yet to see an Irish language enthusiast suggest that spending money translating documents into Irish that nobody reads is an effective use of money.

Really? This from the same crowd who wish to be able to do all their business with the state through the medium of Irish?

So you want people like Des and Hector who dont do what Des and Hector do?

Anyway. Des is involved with the Meath Gaelthacht. They are promoting a new online learning system for Gaeilscoils to use. As for Hector. He is working with TG4, Its up to them really what he dose.

I'll rephrase it a better way. Maybe there should be more "Des" and "Hectors", and less wasteful state spending on the Irish language elsewhere.

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

Not directly relevant. But symptomatic of the overall waste of money when it comes to certain aspects of state spending the Irish language.

Níl an Oideachais Tríú leibhéal cur amú:rolleyes:
Third level Education is not a waste:rolleyes:

Really? This from the same crowd who wish to be able to do all their business with the state through the medium of Irish?

Aistriúchán cáipéisí nach bhfuil aon éileamh go Gaeilge, agus a bheith in ann do ghnó a dhéanamh trí Ghaeilge leis an stát nach bhfuil an rud céanna. Is féidir liom a fheiceáil go bhfuil, Cén fáth ar nach féidir leat ?

Translating documents that there is no demand for into Irish and being able to conduct your business with the state through Irish are not the same thing. I can see that, Why cant you?

I'll rephrase it a better way. Maybe there should be more "Des" and "Hectors", and less wasteful state spending on the Irish language elsewhere.

Cén fáth nach bhfuil, ba mhaith liom a eisiúint le brandáil gach rud go bhfuil an Ghaeilge mar dhramhaíl i gceist, áfach, Gan ciontigh leat go pearsanta ach tá roinnt póstaeir a bhfuil éileamh a dhéanamh chuige sin.

Why not, I would have Issue with branding everything that involves Irish as wastefull however, Not accusing you personally but there are some posters that have made claims to that effect.

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

Translating documents that there is no demand for into Irish and being able to conduct your business with the state through Irish are not the same thing. I can see that, Why cant you?

Sure, but how do you define demand? How do you know which documents will be in demand prior to their translation? If the government screws up, they're going to be bashed by the Irish lobby. The politicians are naturally going to take a soft option, and just have a less controversial one-size-fits-all approach.

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

Sure, but how do you define demand? How do you know which documents will be in demand prior to their translation? If the government screws up, they're going to be bashed by the Irish lobby. The politicians are naturally going to take a soft option, and just have a less controversial one-size-fits-all approach.

Bhuel, a bheadh Breitheamh-éileamh ar na doiciméid roimhe cosúil bealach amháin chun dul.

Well, Judging demand for similar previous documents would be one way to go.

Níor chóir amú airgead cáiníocóirí a bheith ina rogha é, an cáineadh bailí ar cheann de na díograiseoirí Gaeilge nach bhfuil ráite ag go leor i gcoinne an dramhaíl

Wasting taxpayers money should never be an option, The one valid criticism of Irish language enthusiasts is not enough has been said against this waste

MysticalRain

I certainly wouldn't have a problem with taking a smarter, more proactive approach. After all, it does siphon off money that could be spent elsewhere on the language.

winchesterj54

here's a test everyone can do
it's not hard i promise
walk out your front door and see how many people you hear speaking irish
nine am i right...hahaha
of course it's a dead language why do you have to ask such a silly question

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't have a problem with taking a smarter, more proactive approach. After all, it does siphon off money that could be spent elsewhere on the language.

Aontaím go hiomlán:)

I fully agree.

dkin

deise go deo wrote: »

The prevailing longterm trend in Irish education is consistent growth in Irish medium Education.
the demand for Irish medium Education is still far ahead of supply.
If the growth had only been over the last few years then maybe the comparison would stack up, but the growth has been steady over 30 years and is showing no signs of slacking off just yet.

I don't disagree that the demand for gaelscoils is increasing. However I'm not sure this correlates with an increase in the popularity of Irish. Lots of people like the idea of their children speaking Irish. I know several people who had both primary and secondary schooling in Irish. They've told me that Irish was only spoken within the classroom and not among themselves while at school. While most like having the ability to speak Irish, it's utility is fairly limited and if they don't even speak among fellow students I'm not sure how successful the gaelscoils are. Only my personal experience however.

deise go deo

winchesterj54 wrote: »

here's a test everyone can do
it's not hard i promise
walk out your front door and see how many people you hear speaking irish
nine am i right...hahaha
of course it's a dead language why do you have to ask such a silly question

Gan cothrom le daoine atá ina gcónaí thar lear;)
Níl a fhios agat cad a dhéanann mheán teanga marbh tú? sin a fhios agat, ní éisteacht é nuair a shiúlann tú amach nach bhfuil d'doras labhair aoi é.

Not fair to those living overseas.
You do not know what a dead language means do you? Just so you know, not hearing it when you walk out your fron door is not it.

deise go deo

dkin wrote: »

I don't disagree that the demand for gaelscoils is increasing. However I'm not sure this correlates with an increase in the popularity of Irish. Lots of people like the idea of their children speaking Irish. I know several people who had both primary and secondary schooling in Irish. They've told me that Irish was only spoken within the classroom and not among themselves while at school. While most like having the ability to speak Irish, it's utility is fairly limited and if they don't even speak among fellow students I'm not sure how successful the gaelscoils are. Only my personal experience however.

The demand for gaeilscoils has and Is Increasing because people in this country generally want to be able to speak Irish, and if they cant themselves then they want their children too. People who study in the Gaeilscoil are almost completely fluent. If they don't use it then that is their choice, many however, do use it.

Rebelheart

winchesterj54 wrote: »

of course it's a dead language why do you have to ask such a silly question

Oh if only, in your misguided anti-Irish zeal, you could speak the Queen's English correctly ....

Not even that, alas.

dkin

deise go deo wrote: »

The demand for gaeilscoils has and Is Increasing because people in this country generally want to be able to speak Irish, and if they cant themselves then they want their children too. People who study in the Gaeilscoil are almost completely fluent. If they don't use it then that is their choice, many however, do use it.

I am sure that many parents send their children to gaelscoils to learn Irish however I'm sure there are many other reasons too. For instance in the hypotetical situation that two identical schools were established with the same teacher student ratio, more or less identical socio-economic students etc., one a gaelsoil and another a primary school that didn't teach any Irish but instead spent the time on French/German/Chinese and taught through English. Which one do you think would be the most popular among the people who currently send their children to gaelscoils?

I think it's great that gaelscoils exist I think language immersion from a young age leading to bi lingualism is a good thing. Ideally people who care passionately about Irish would send their children to gaelscoils and the compulsary Irish teaching in normal primary schools would be abolished.

Hopefully with the growth of the gaelscoil movement there will be a critical mass when the needs of students whose parents believe in Irish will be able suitably provided by the gaelscoils allowing other schools to broaden their curriculum.

Rebelheart

MysticalRain wrote: »

I would argue that some sort of language besides English should be compulsory.

Why, pray tell, should English be compulsory? Is it for the phenomenal benefit which we receive from, say, Sonnet 112? Or the latest irrelevant, boring detail of, say, a Jane Austen novel? Or Paddy Kavanagh's latest bitter retort about being a culchie with an almightly inferiority complex?

The English syllabus in this state is utterly irrelevant to the lives of the vast, vast, vast majority of Irish people who are forced to endure it. It's merely "rammed down our throats", to use the sort of language you like to use against the Irish.

dubhthach

MysticalRain wrote: »

I have nothing against the teaching of Irish, so long as it's not made compulsory. I just happen to have a different set of values to you when it comes to education. My priorities are oriented towards technological and economic progress. Not turning the clock back to a bygone age where most of us spoke Irish and worshipped some old guy in the Vatican.

I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say with "jehadi persuite" and Dev.

You obviously don't really know your history do you? The Catholic Church in Ireland promoted the English language from the 18th century onwards. They associated the Irish language with "excess" (drinking/whoring/fighting) and unchurched behaviour. Spreading the english language actually help them get the poisonous grip on Irish society that they eventually had. It's only post famine that the rate of church going went up in Ireland. The image of a excessively church dominated Ireland only really lasted 100 years (1850's-1960's). Before the famine the level of church going in Ireland was about 20-40%

For example in the Mass attendance survey done in 1834 it was found that in west of Ireland (which was majority Irish speaking at the time) that weekly mass attendance was in alot of places only 20%
http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/eich_01/eich_01_00102.html

Personally I don't believe religion should even be taught in school. If parents want their children to get RE then the local church should run a "Sunday school" or whatever.

Bringing up Dev tbh is the Irish language equivalent of "Goodwin's Law".

Cú Giobach

MysticalRain wrote: »

From an economic point of view, it's the truth. That's effectively what American multinationals are telling us about our education system these days.

Personally I will not have American multinational companies telling me how to educate my children, or dictating education policy in this country.
They have one aim and one aim only, to make themselves richer at any cost.

Cú Giobach

dubhthach wrote: »

You obviously don't really know your history do you? The Catholic Church in Ireland promoted the English language from the 18th century onwards. They associated the Irish language with "excess" (drinking/whoring/fighting) and unchurched behaviour. Spreading the english language actually help them get the poisonous grip on Irish society that they eventually had. It's only post famine that the rate of church going went up in Ireland. The image of a excessively church dominated Ireland only really lasted 100 years (1850's-1960's). Before the famine the level of church going in Ireland was about 20-40%

For example in the Mass attendance survey done in 1834 it was found that in west of Ireland (which was majority Irish speaking at the time) that weekly mass attendance was in alot of places only 20%
http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/eich_01/eich_01_00102.html

Personally I don't believe religion should even be thought in school. If parents want their children to get RE then the local church should run a "Sunday school" or whatever.

Bringing up Dev tbh is the Irish language equivalent of "Goodwin's Law".

+1
Excellent post, maith an fear/bhean.
Unfortunately this reality is lost on too many people.

deise go deo

dkin wrote: »

I am sure that many parents send their children to gaelscoils to learn Irish however I'm sure there are many other reasons too. For instance in the hypotetical situation that two identical schools were established with the same teacher student ratio, more or less identical socio-economic students etc., one a gaelsoil and another a primary school that didn't teach any Irish but instead spent the time on French/German/Chinese and taught through English. Which one do you think would be the most popular among the people who currently send their children to gaelscoils?

Sílim go mbeadh an Gaeilscoileanna tóir fós.
I think the Gaeilscoileanna would remain popular.

I think it's great that gaelscoils exist I think language immersion from a young age leading to bi lingualism is a good thing. Ideally people who care passionately about Irish would send their children to gaelscoils and the compulsary Irish teaching in normal primary schools would be abolished.

Cén fáth ar chóir an Ghaeilge a theagasc sna bunscoileanna (neamh Gaeilscoileanna ) a chur ar ceal? Níl aon toil suntasach sin tarlú
Why should the teaching of Irish in primary schools(non Gaeilscoileanna) be abolished? There is no significant desire for that to happen.

dubhthach

Cú Giobach wrote: »

+1
Excellent post, maith an fear/bhean.
Unfortunately this reality is lost on too many people.

With L21+ SNP marker on my Y-Chromosome I'm hardly a Bean

Tbh a major problem we have in Ireland is not that Irish is a subject. It's that our education system is still heavily based on the system introduced in the 19th century. It's all about rote-learning. Students learn off what they need to pass the exams -- essays, poems, prepared-questions etc.

In general the only subjects that actually have a challenge are maths/science and it's not surprising that there are low amounts taking the higher option in these when it's easier to learn off prepared answers in "easier" subjects so that you can get high-points.

This in my book is not an education, even if we replaced Irish with another European language I don't think it would improve the situation one iota. As the system is purely aimed at getting a "paper result" (eg. points in the leaving) and not actually giving people a well formed education and ability to think for themselves.

Cú Giobach

dubhthach wrote: »

With L21+ SNP marker on my Y-Chromosome I'm hardly a Bean

Tbh a major problem we have in Ireland is not that Irish is a subject. It's that our education system is still heavily based on the system introduced in the 19th century. It's all about rote-learning. Students learn off what they need to pass the exams -- essays, poems, prepared-questions etc.

In general the only subjects that actually have a challenge are maths/science and it's not surprising that there are low amounts taking the higher option in these when it's easier to learn off prepared answers in "easier" subjects so that you can get high-points.

This in my book is not an education, even if we replaced Irish with another European language I don't think it would improve the situation one iota. As the system is purely aimed at getting a "paper result" (eg. points in the leaving) and not actually giving people a well formed education and ability to think for themselves.

I'm a bit excited about the weather here in W'Cork and didn't notice your sig, oops.

The exam system really is a big problem with education today, it's a pity that some people can't see the bigger picture at times.

It's sad that some people who don't experience the Irish language still have this Dev's Ireland hang up about it , don't they realise a language is just a method of communication. Sometimes I think they imagine we only talk about shpuds and the holy catholic church when talking in Irish :rolleyes:.

deise go deo

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I'm a bit excited about the weather here in W'Cork and didn't notice your sig, oops.

The exam system really is a big problem with education today, it's a pity that some people can't see the bigger picture at times.

It's sad that some people who don't experience the Irish language still have this Dev's Ireland hang up about it , don't they realise a language is just a method of communication. Sometimes I think they imagine we only talk about shpuds and the holy catholic church when talking in Irish :rolleyes:.

Ná déan dearmad ar na ocht gcéad blianta de cos ar bolg:D
Dont forget the eight hundred years of oppression.

dubhthach

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I'm a bit excited about the weather here in W'Cork and didn't notice your sig, oops.

The exam system really is a big problem with education today, it's a pity that some people can't see the bigger picture at times.

It's sad that some people who don't experience the Irish language still have this Dev's Ireland hang up about it , don't they realise a language is just a method of communication. Sometimes I think they imagine we only talk about shpuds and the holy catholic church when talking in Irish :rolleyes:.

Well best way to shed such an image would be to add "Cúirt An Mheán Oíche" (The Midnight court) to the school syllabus. No doubt it would help that the Censor board banned the english translation of it in 1946!