Is Irish a dead language?

deise go deo

dubhthach wrote: »

Well best way to shed such an image would be to add "Cúirt An Mheán Oíche" (The Midnight court) to the school syllabus. No doubt it would help that the Censor board banned the english translation of it in 1946!

Bhuel, d'fhéadfadh sé buille roinnt alla amach ar a laghad.:D
Well, it might blow some cobwebs away at least.

dkin

deise go deo wrote: »

Why should the teaching of Irish in primary schools(non Gaeilscoileanna) be abolished? There is no significant desire for that to happen.

Well why shouldn't parents have the choice to set up an English language school in the same way that parents have the right to set up gaelscoils? If we had two schools competing one with Irish and the other without we'd be able to see first hand how strong the attachment to Irish is.

deise go deo

dkin wrote: »

Well why shouldn't parents have the choice to set up an English language school in the same way that parents have the right to set up gaelscoils? If we had two schools competing one with Irish and the other without we'd be able to see first hand how strong the attachment to Irish is.

An bhfuil aon duine a thriail riamh, An bhfuil éileamh ann riamh do scoil gan aon Ghaeilge. Cén fáth, dar leat Gaeilge a chruthú ar bhealach a riachtanais féin. labhairt ar na figiúirí maidir le fás i Gaeilscoileanna dóibh féin. Nuair a tá feachtas chun deireadh na Ghaeilge ó na bunscoileanna ansin, beidh muid se é an chaoi a láidir an dúil a fheiceáil ar ceal é;)
Has anyone ever tried? Has there ever been demand for a school with no Irish?
Why do you think Irish needs to somehow prove its self. The figures for the growth in Gaeilscoileanna speak for themselves. When there is a campaign for the removal of Irish from Primary schools then we will se how strong the desire to see it abolished is.

Krusader

MysticalRain wrote: »

The head of HP in Ireland specifically said that the Irish education system spends too much time on subjects like Irish and not enough time on math and science. It doesn't get any more specific than that.


It's easy to figure out you don't work in science or technology with words like that.

That's a bit funny 'cause in NI, there was an article written about a study done by Queens University that said kids in Gaeilscoileanna where better at Maths then their English language school counterparts. I tried to locate the article but I can't seem to find it its on the
www.gaelscoileanna.ie site

It's well known that kids who are bilingual develop a higher IQ than monoglots.
60% of the world's population is bilingual, if English wasn't the lingua franca, i'm sure Ireland would be fully bilingual aswell

dkin

deise go deo wrote: »

Has anyone ever tried? Has there ever been demand for a school with no Irish?

Nobody has tried it because it is a legal requirement to have Irish in schools. I guarantee if parents had the right to set up English only schools they would be successful.

deise go deo

dkin wrote: »

Nobody has tried it because it is a legal requirement to have Irish in schools. I guarantee if parents had the right to set up English only schools they would be successful.

Tá tú ag rá go mbeadh an t-éileamh ann más rud é go raibh an dlí a athrú?
Cén fáth nach bhfuil aon éileamh air anois? Má bhí daoine é sin cinnte go mbeadh siad ag argóint i gcoinne an dlí agus feachtais chun é a athrú?
So what you are saying is that the demand would exist if the law was changed? Why is there no demand for it now? If people wanted it then surely they would argue against the law and campaign to have it changed?

Ní dúirt mé riamh nach bhféadfadh scoil mBéarla amháin a bheith rathúil,
Tá mé ag rá cosúil le aon duine amháin a bhfuil suim acu a chur ar bun nó iarracht a bheith acu ar an dlí a athrú chun cead a thabhairt dóibh
I never said an English language only school could not be successful, I am saying no one seems bothered to set one up or try to have the law changed to allow them.

Krusader

dkin wrote: »

Nobody has tried it because it is a legal requirement to have Irish in schools. I guarantee if parents had the right to set up English only schools they would be successful.

As it is English in Gaelscoileanna

eddyc

dubhthach wrote: »

You obviously don't really know your history do you? The Catholic Church in Ireland promoted the English language from the 18th century onwards. They associated the Irish language with "excess" (drinking/whoring/fighting) and unchurched behaviour. Spreading the english language actually help them get the poisonous grip on Irish society that they eventually had. It's only post famine that the rate of church going went up in Ireland. The image of a excessively church dominated Ireland only really lasted 100 years (1850's-1960's). Before the famine the level of church going in Ireland was about 20-40%

For example in the Mass attendance survey done in 1834 it was found that in west of Ireland (which was majority Irish speaking at the time) that weekly mass attendance was in alot of places only 20%
http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/eich_01/eich_01_00102.html

Personally I don't believe religion should even be taught in school. If parents want their children to get RE then the local church should run a "Sunday school" or whatever.

Bringing up Dev tbh is the Irish language equivalent of "Goodwin's Law".

Most Irish people speak English because it is the language their parents talked to them in. It has nothing to do with the church anymore. You imply that by teaching English the Catholic church was exerting control over the Irish people, this could be true, one could also make the argument that Irish people learned English to gain employment.
That being said this is all irrelevant now anyway, most people in Ireland are monolingual English speakers.
Do the people who support Irish only support it because it is our culture, and it is better to speak more than one language, or is it the linguistic equivalent of Northern Ireland? Is the current state of affairs wrong, should Irish be reinstated as if not the dominant language of Ireland, or at least spoken just as often?

dkin

I never said an English language only school could not be successful, I am saying no one seems bothered to set one up or try to have the law changed to allow them.

Having the law changed is not something that could be easily achieved. It would require new legislaton brought through the Dail. However the growth of the gaelscoil movement might allow this as they offer a credible alternative and a better solution to the current compulsory teaching and it's long history of failure. I don't think many Irish supporters could disagree if there was a viable gaelscoil nearby and their local school decided to stop compulsory Irish teaching.
I think parents should have the choice. I would lend my support to a campaign that seeked to bring this about.

deise go deo

dkin wrote: »

Having the law changed is not something that could be easily achieved. It would require new legislaton brought through the Dail. However the growth of the gaelscoil movement might allow this as they offer a credible alternative and a better solution to the current compulsory teaching and it's long history of failure. I don't think many Irish supporters could disagree if there was a viable gaelscoil nearby and their local school decided to stop compulsory Irish teaching.
I think parents should have the choice. I would lend my support to a campaign that seeked to bring this about.

Changing the law is very unlikely if there is no demand for it.
Why should schools want to drop Irish anyway, I have never encountred a disire from Parents for this to be done. It is an unlikely senairo anyway, For it to work then everyone would have to have the option of sending their Children to a Gaeilscoil, This would need quite a bit of investment from the government and would most likely lead to waste due to duplication of services.

Krusader

eddyc wrote: »

Most Irish people speak English because it is the language their parents talked to them in. It has nothing to do with the church anymore. You imply that by teaching English the Catholic church was exerting control over the Irish people, this could be true, one could also make the argument that Irish people learned English to gain employment.
That being said this is all irrelevant now anyway, most people in Ireland are monolingual English speakers.
Do the people who support Irish only support it because it is our culture, and it is better to speak more than one language, or is it the linguistic equivalent of Northern Ireland? Is the current state of affairs wrong, should Irish be reinstated as if not the dominant language of Ireland, or at least spoken just as often?

Nobody wants to oust English out of Ireland, it would be great that the country could become bilingual and both languages live side by side without prejugdice, in countries like Malta, Maltese seems to be the family/social language and English being the language of business and Italian being a minority 3rd language. A similar situation in Ireland would be grand

dubhthach

eddyc wrote: »

Most Irish people speak English because it is the language their parents talked to them in. It has nothing to do with the church anymore.

Eddyc that wasn't my point. You are quite right to point out that the main reason for current language usage is due to situation in the familial home. MysticalRain was implying that learning Irish was about turning the clock back to some time when we all worshipped some guy in the Vatican and spoke Irish. He was implying that one couldn't be modern and liberal and speak Irish as it's only the preserve of backward inward looking people who want a "holy catholic Ireland".

I was simply refuting this assertion by pointing out that the Catholic church contributed to the decline of the Irish language due to associating it with immoral behavior and lack of churchgoing. This of course was just one of many factors contributing to the decline of the language in the mid-19th century. (there was as many Irish speakers as Swedish speakers in 1841 -- twice as many as Dutch).

As for myself. I personally like the Irish language. I like how it sounds, how I can express myself in it. The fact that I can understand the meaning of placenames etc. I feel that been able to speak both English and Irish broadens my thought process. Of course you could argue the same with English and french, but unless I move to France I'd probably never use French. Growing up in Galway I heard Irish on a near daily basis.

In general I think our entire education system needs to be redesigned. The emphasis should be on "active learning" where the students actually have to be able to form there own thought stream about a subject and communicate that. This applies as much to teaching Irish as it does as History or Science. Instead we are stuck with a rote system which values the ability to learn off a syllabus so that you can regurgitate on the day of exam. This doesn't really impart an education just an ability to pass state-exams.

eddyc

Crosáidí wrote: »

Nobody wants to oust English out of Ireland, it would be great that the country could become bilingual and both languages live side by side without prejugdice, in countries like Malta, Maltese seems to be the family/social language and English being the language of business and Italian being a minority 3rd language. A similar situation in Ireland would be grand

I am fully aware of the value of bilingualism, and it is a good thing to strive for in society. Where I disagree with you're position is that the second language must be Irish. The reasons for this put forward by the pro-Irish group usually revolve around, its our culture, its great to be bilingual etc. These in my opinion are not strong enough reasons for the current state of affairs.
There seems to be the unspoken reason that Irish was taken away from this country and replaced by English, therefore we must put it back in its rightful place, am I wrong?
I don't want to oversimplify you're position, but why only Irish and not the choice of any other second language is beyond me. Maybe its because I'm a pragmatist but I would rather have children given a choice of French/German/Irish than just Irish in school, reasons being simply employment related.
I have no love for the Irish language, why would I? It was made on this Island but so were many other things I don't care about. And to be pedantic its basically a dialect of a much older language anyway. The English can hardly lay full claim over English can they? A mix of Frisian, Old Norse, French, Latin and not to mention thousands of other borrowed words.
I fully support state funding for the language, but expecting everyone in Ireland to take part, as if we were one homogenous race anyway is a bit of a stretch, and the proof is, its not working.

Krusader

Thats fair enough each to there own, there is schools that teach through french in Dublin at least, if the demand is there they'll be set up

Krusader

eddyc wrote: »

And to be pedantic its basically a dialect of a much older language anyway.

What does this mean

deise go deo

eddyc wrote: »

I am fully aware of the value of bilingualism, and it is a good thing to strive for in society. Where I disagree with you're position is that the second language must be Irish. The reasons for this put forward by the pro-Irish group usually revolve around, its our culture, its great to be bilingual etc. These in my opinion are not strong enough reasons for the current state of affairs.

How about enough people wanting Irish in Schools, Is that a good enough reason? Although I doubt anyone is happy at the current state of affairs, there dosent seam to be many people objecting to Irish in Schools.

murphaph

eddyc wrote: »

The English can hardly lay full claim over English can they? A mix of Frisian, Old Norse, French, Latin and not to mention thousands of other borrowed words.

True, English is the bastard of bastard languages and that's what makes it so powerful. It offers almost no resistance to "foreign words" (even words from the Irish language now exist in English).

I (as someone who speaks a foreign language well enough to work in it) also believe that we should strive for bilingualism in the future and that the offering should be Irish OR German/French/Chinese whatever. We (along with the British) are a disgrace compared to our continental cousins who often learn not just English but also another major European language.

My GF is German. She speaks better English than I do German, despite her never living in an English speaking country and me living in Germany! She also speaks Italian and Hungarian and can make herself understood in French. I thought I was a great lad being able to speak one foreign language lol! We have a lot to learn. If we want to really make gains in exporting to continental Europe we need to learn their languages. It shows a great deal of respect and brings kudos. Expecting Johnny Foreigner to speak to us in English when we are trying to sell something to him is not good business, though it sometimes works.

We should send our kids to France/Germany/Spain in the summer the way they send their kids to us! It shouldn't be a one way street.

deise go deo

murphaph wrote: »

True, English is the bastard of bastard languages and that's what makes it so powerful. It offers almost no resistance to "foreign words" (even words from the Irish language now exist in English).

What made English so powerfull is its connection with powerfull countries, First the British Empire and then The US.
The English language dident start to grow until the British started to expand their Empire, The Same was true of other languages. French grew when France took over other countries, same with spanish.

The English language is not a 'better' language than anyother. It is actually a difficult language to learn as it uses a different structure to most European languages and has many irrigular verbs that one must learn.

dkin

deise go deo wrote: »

Changing the law is very unlikely if there is no demand for it.
Why should schools want to drop Irish anyway, I have never encountred a disire from Parents for this to be done. It is an unlikely senairo anyway, For it to work then everyone would have to have the option of sending their Children to a Gaeilscoil, This would need quite a bit of investment from the government and would most likely lead to waste due to duplication of services.

I know lots of people who would prefer if the time devoted to Irish was devoted to other subjects instead.
I agree at the moment it's not feasible across the country but what about areas that already have an established gaelscoil and a local primary school. As the Irish needs of pupils are already very well catered for in the gaelscoil why not allow the normal school the option of not teaching Irish? Especially as it is being taught in an inferior manner when compared to the gaelscoil.

MysticalRain

dubhthach wrote: »

You obviously don't really know your history do you? The Catholic Church in Ireland promoted the English language from the 18th century onwards. They associated the Irish language with "excess" (drinking/whoring/fighting) and unchurched behaviour. Spreading the english language actually help them get the poisonous grip on Irish society that they eventually had. It's only post famine that the rate of church going went up in Ireland. The image of a excessively church dominated Ireland only really lasted 100 years (1850's-1960's). Before the famine the level of church going in Ireland was about 20-40%

For example in the Mass attendance survey done in 1834 it was found that in west of Ireland (which was majority Irish speaking at the time) that weekly mass attendance was in alot of places only 20%
http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/eich_01/eich_01_00102.html

Personally I don't believe religion should even be taught in school. If parents want their children to get RE then the local church should run a "Sunday school" or whatever.

Thank you for taking so much time to address a non-existent point that I never actually made. If you had actually read my post, you would have seen that I made no comment whatsoever regarding the Catholic Church's attitudes towards the English and Irish languages.

Bringing up Dev tbh is the Irish language equivalent of "Goodwin's Law".

I could say a lot of critical things about Dev. Ridiculous comparisons with Hitler certainly wouldn't be one of them.

MysticalRain

Rebelheart wrote: »

Why, pray tell, should English be compulsory? Is it for the phenomenal benefit which we receive from, say, Sonnet 112? Or the latest irrelevant, boring detail of, say, a Jane Austen novel? Or Paddy Kavanagh's latest bitter retort about being a culchie with an almightly inferiority complex?

The English syllabus in this state is utterly irrelevant to the lives of the vast, vast, vast majority of Irish people who are forced to endure it. It's merely "rammed down our throats", to use the sort of language you like to use against the Irish.

As I said in a previous response to another poster, that is a simple-minded strawman argument. There is more to the English curriculum than Shakespeare or poetry. Proper grammar, and reading comprehension are essential skills for everyone living on this island. So long English remains the native spoken language here, there will always be a practical justification for teaching it.

deise go deo

dkin wrote: »

I know lots of people who would prefer if the time devoted to Irish was devoted to other subjects instead.
I agree at the moment it's not feasible across the country but what about areas that already have an established gaelscoil and a local primary school. As the Irish needs of pupils are already very well catered for in the gaelscoil why not allow the normal school the option of not teaching Irish? Especially as it is being taught in an inferior manner when compared to the gaelscoil.

But have any of these schools, or the parents of kids going to these schools ever asked for it, Why should something be done that there is no demand for? If your friends are intrested in their kids doing a language other than Irish then why are they not makeing their voices heard?
Not to mention that the waiting list for the existing gaeilscoileanna are several years long, so its not exactly fair to say that if a parent wants their child to learn Irish they should just send them to the local Gaeilscoil.
Also many parents who would like their Kids to learn Irish would not automatically send their kids to a gaeilscoil due to the long waiting lists. Not to mention the fact that they would be almost compleatly unable to help their kids with their homework. There are other factors at play.

Yes their may be a possibility of All English schools in the future, but before that can come about there has to be at least some demand for them.

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

As I said in a previous response to another poster, that is a simple-minded strawman argument. There is more to the English curriculum than Shakespeare or poetry. Proper grammar, and reading comprehension are essential skills for everyone living on this island. So long English remains the native spoken language here, there will always be a practical justification for teaching it.

The English LC curriculum is not doing that. I am doing a teaching course in Uni, One of the points I learned is that roughly 7% of students enter secondary school with reading/writing difficulty. And 6 years later 7% leave with reading/writing difficulty.
There is a justification for teaching English To Junior cert, but very little of practical benefit is learned for the LC, Students are already able to Read and Write by the time they start their LC program. Every thing of benefit from the English Course is already well established before the LC. Makeing them do another Subject Through English on top of all the other subjects they do through English is pointless as anything a student could possibly learn with a practicle benefit in English Class will be picked up anyway in their other classes. That is the whole point of Imerrsion, That is why Gaeilscoileanna work so well. The one exception to this is in the Gaeilscoileanna where there is Justification to keep English compulsory to the LC.

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

Thank you for taking so much time to address a non-existent point that I never actually made. If you had actually read my post, you would have seen that I made no comment whatsoever regarding the Catholic Church's attitudes towards the English and Irish languages.


I could say a lot of critical things about Dev. Ridiculous comparisons with Hitler certainly wouldn't be one of them.

Dont be silly, he isent comparing DeV to Hitler, He is comparing the logic behind Godwin's law. IE if someone uses hyperbole to the extent that they use Hitler as a comparison then the topic looses credibility and the thread is doomed.

Bringing up DeV in a thread about the Irish language(Or Ireland In General) is in the same catogory as Bringing up Hitler in other threads.
Pointless because it is so far OTT

dkin

deise go deo wrote: »

But have any of these schools, or the parents of kids going to these schools ever asked for it, Why should something be done that there is no demand for? If your friends are intrested in their kids doing a language other than Irish then why are they not makeing their voices heard?

I believe several schools originally refuses to teach Irish shortly after the formation of the state however they were coerced into teaching it. This aspect of Irish law is pretty much copper fastened and would require Dail intervention. I actually can't see any good reason why it hasn't already been campaigned for, but I imagine up to now it would have been highly divisive as parents would have come down strongly for both sides. However with the existence of the gaelscoils there now exists a credible path for English only primary education without offending those how have strong views on supporting Irish.

Not to mention that the waiting list for the existing gaeilscoileanna are several years long, so its not exactly fair to say that if a parent wants their child to learn Irish they should just send them to the local Gaeilscoil.
Also many parents who would like their Kids to learn Irish would not automatically send their kids to a gaeilscoil due to the long waiting lists.

Well not all gaelscoils have long waiting lists and in the future if the demand is so great I imagine those who wish to go there will be catered for as the gaelscoils expand.

Not to mention the fact that they would be almost compleatly unable to help their kids with their homework. There are other factors at play.

True but judging by the success of the gaelscoils these factors do not seem to be deterring many people. I'm not saying all schools would stop Irish just those were other schools already offer Irish.

Yes their may be a possibility of All English schools in the future, but before that can come about there has to be at least some demand for them.

I'm actually quite surprised there is less demand but as I've said above I think many people are uncomfortable as they know it's a highly divisive topic. If english only schools were allowed I think they would be very successful.

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

The English LC curriculum is not doing that. I am doing a teaching course in Uni, One of the points I learned is that roughly 7% of students enter secondary school with reading/writing difficulty. And 6 years later 7% leave with reading/writing difficulty.
There is a justification for teaching English To Junior cert, but very little of practical benefit is learned for the LC, Students are already able to Read and Write by the time they start their LC program. Every thing of benefit from the English Course is already well established before the LC. Makeing them do another Subject Through English on top of all the other subjects they do through English is pointless as anything a student could possibly learn with a practicle benefit in English Class will be picked up anyway in their other classes. That is the whole point of Imerrsion, That is why Gaeilscoileanna work so well. The one exception to this is in the Gaeilscoileanna where there is Justification to keep English compulsory to the LC.

I would be the first to agree that the English language curriculum is taught badly at second level, is badly in need of reform, or that it should be made optional beyond Junior cert level. However, that is a separate argument to whether or not the subject is a necessary one in the first place. At least up until JC leve.

Dont be silly, he isent comparing DeV to Hitler, He is comparing the logic behind Godwin's law. IE if someone uses hyperbole to the extent that they use Hitler as a comparison then the topic looses credibility and the thread is doomed.

Bringing up DeV in a thread about the Irish language(Or Ireland In General) is in the same catogory as Bringing up Hitler in other threads.
Pointless because it is so far OTT

Or you could just be a little too hypersensitive about it. Besides, I don't see what's so ridiculous about bringing up a key figure in Irish history and culture when said figure happened to have such a huge impact on it. It would be the equivalent of accusing Americans "of invoking Godwin's law" for discussing George Washington.

deise go deo

dkin wrote: »

I believe several schools originally refuses to teach Irish shortly after the formation of the state however they were coerced into teaching it. This aspect of Irish law is pretty much copper fastened and would require Dail intervention. I actually can't see any good reason why it hasn't already been campaigned for, but I imagine up to now it would have been highly divisive as parents would have come down strongly for both sides. However with the existence of the gaelscoils there now exists a credible path for English only primary education without offending those how have strong views on supporting Irish.

Can you come up with something a bit more recent than 80 years ago?

But the point is why should the state go through the bother of changing the education system in a rather big way, By adding layers of different types of school when there isent even a demand for it to be done. Surely that would come under the heading of waste?

Well not all gaelscoils have long waiting lists and in the future if the demand is so great I imagine those who wish to go there will be catered for as the gaelscoils expand.

They are not being facilited by the state now, The state hasent recognised a new gaeilscoil since 08. Irish speakers and enthusiasts are not being catered for.

True but judging by the success of the gaelscoils these factors do not seem to be deterring many people. I'm not saying all schools would stop Irish just those were other schools already offer Irish.

No, there is a large group of people who are undetered, that dosent mean that there isent also a group of people that are detered and would rather their kids learn Irish in an English medium school. Should they not be catered for?

I'm actually quite surprised there is less demand but as I've said above I think many people are uncomfortable as they know it's a highly divisive topic. If english only schools were allowed I think they would be very successful.

But again why provide something there is no demand for, It would complicate the education system, There is no practicle reason for the state to do this in the absence of demand for it.

dkin

deise go deo wrote: »

Can you come up with something a bit more recent than 80 years ago?

But the point is why should the state go through the bother of changing the education system in a rather big way, By adding layers of different types of school when there isent even a demand for it to be done. Surely that would come under the heading of waste?

Well in that case surely the whole gaelscoil movement could be accused of being wasteful. I disagree that there isn't a demand.

They are not being facilited by the state now, The state hasent recognised a new gaeilscoil since 08. Irish speakers and enthusiasts are not being catered for.

Currently the state is in financial crisis. This will change in time

No, there is a large group of people who are undetered, that dosent mean that there isent also a group of people that are detered and would rather their kids learn Irish in an English medium school. Should they not be catered for?

But the reality is that most of these children do not learn Irish in English medium schools. If the parents are serious about their children learning Irish they need to understand that a significant amount of effort and sacrifice will be required. The current system is a failure, a better solution has been proposed in the form of gaelscoils so why continue with the failed approach. I think it should be up to individual schools to decide based on what the parents want.

But again why provide something there is no demand for, It would complicate the education system, There is no practicle reason for the state to do this in the absence of demand for it.

I think there is a demand for this but previously it has been politically and socially divisive. However I think people will start to realise that there is no point of continuing with a failed model if there is a much better alternative available.

dubhthach

MysticalRain wrote: »

Or you could just be a little too hypersensitive about it. Besides, I don't see what's so ridiculous about bringing up a key figure in Irish history and culture when said figure happened to have such a huge impact on it. It would be the equivalent of accusing Americans "of invoking Godwin's law" for discussing George Washington.

George Washington is a unifying part of American history and appeals across the board swathe of the American population. Dev on the other hand is an extremely divisive character in Irish history. I can't think of a worse comparison.

Generally Dev is brought up as a stick to beat the Irish language.
"oh Dev wanted us all dancing at crossroads speaking Irish and living frugally" ergo: Speaking Irish is a backward proposition tied to the poverty that went with the policies of the 1930's-1950's which has us priest-ridden etc.

Generally by bringing up Dev you are ignoring the actual language itself and just going "oh Dev had a hard-on for Irish it must be evil!" :rolleyes:

Also what impact did Dev have on the Irish language? He never wrote any noted prose/poetry in it, all he did was paid lip-service as close to 200,000 Gaelgóirs emigrated. He didn't even make Irish the first language. This had been done by Cumann na nGaedheal in the 1922 Constitution, likewise it was CnG who imposed the language compulsion in school.

MysticalRain

dubhthach wrote: »

George Washington is a unifying part of American history and appeals across the board swathe of the American population. Dev on the other hand is an extremely divisive character in Irish history. I can't think of a worse comparison.

Whether or not Dev was a divisive figure is a separate, and largely irrelevant, point to the one I was making. The fact is, both Washington and Dev were central players in the foundation of their countries. Both as military figures, politicians, and ultimately as people who shaped their national identity in very profound ways.

"oh Dev wanted us all dancing at crossroads speaking Irish and living frugally" ergo: Speaking Irish is a backward proposition tied to the poverty that went with the policies of the 1930's-1950's which has us priest-ridden etc. Generally by bringing up Dev you are ignoring the actual language itself and just going "oh Dev had a hard-on for Irish it must be evil!"

You can dance around the point all you want, but the fact is the Irish language is tied in with a culture that supports a kind of misty eyed nationalism (not to mention an inward looking isolationism) that had a detrimental effect on the economic health of this country. It's not as if millions of Irish people opted to speak English mainly for economic reasons during the 1800s either.

Also what impact did Dev have on the Irish language? He never wrote any noted prose/poetry in it, all he did was paid lip-service as close to 200,000 Gaelgóirs emigrated. He didn't even make Irish the first language. This had been done by Cumann na nGaedheal in the 1922 Constitution, likewise it was CnG who imposed the language compulsion in school.

So Dev never wrote any noted prose/poetry in gaelic? So what? Neither have 99% of the people who have supported the language over the years. It doesn't change the fact that Dev had a keen personal interest in the language, and its revival. Blaming Dev for 200,000 Gaelgóirs emigrating is simplifying matters just a wee bit. Just because Dev failed in his efforts to revive the language, that doesn't mean that the pro-gaelic crowd can rewrite history and portray him as an enemy of the language because they believe he didn't do enough to save it.