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Is Irish a dead language?
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You should be more careful in your choice of words. You referred to the inability of the vast majority of Irish people to speak Irish. Would you claim that the French can't speak English? You could have simply stated the fact: Most Irish people don't speak Irish. Perhaps it scares you to accept this?Cú Giobach wrote: »Give us a break. You are constantly coming up with stupid statements like that, reading things into peoples posts, if you're like that in real life I pity you.
One of the reasons for the decline of the use of Irish-speaking in the Gaeltactanna is the encroachment of English-speakers in the workplace and the social environment. It's in one of your side's reports.Cú Giobach wrote: »Ha ha, you want us to live on reservations, so we don't infect the anglophile gaelaphobic masses.
Other cultures protect their heritage in the manner I described (e.g. by forming cultural quarters, communes, ashrams, kibbutz etc.) It's worth considering if you are really committed to the language. But of course, you could choose to live in misery among English-speakers.0 -
Perhaps in practice, but monolingual Irish speakers have an incredible array of government facilities provided to them in the Irish language. Are they forced to speak English, well thats a great way of putting it, if you mean like if I go to France I am forced to speak French, hardly oppressive now is it?
Who mentioned oppression??
Who's harping on??Harping on about the language shift is also pretty pointless because it really doesn't matter why most of us speak English, we simply do now.
I just explained something to someone.
Good for you.It doesn't matter anymore that the English/Catholic Church did it, it doesn't matter that Irish speakers were looked down upon. I have no interest in the victimhood felt by those who feel our culture was taken away from us, I am only interested in the present.0 -
Maybe you should brush up on your English.cyclopath2001 wrote: »You should be more careful in your choice of words. You referred to the inability of the vast majority of Irish people to speak Irish. Would you claim that the French can't speak English? You could have simply stated the fact:
If a French person never learned English then that person can't speak English or that person would be unable to speak English. Quite a simple concept really.
Methinks you are mixing up the verbs "to speak" and "to learn". I recommend the purchase of a good dictionary, it might help you with this.
No not in the slightest.Most Irish people don't speak Irish. Perhaps it scares you to accept this?
Another quite idiotic statement.One of the reasons for the decline of the use of Irish-speaking in the Gaeltactanna is the encroachment of English-speakers in the workplace and the social environment. It's in one of your side's reports.
Yep.
Your us and them attitude is quite pathetic.
From your posts it seems it is you who are living in misery, because it is you who wants to change the status quo, not me.Other cultures protect their heritage in the manner I described (e.g. by forming cultural quarters, communes, ashrams, kibbutz etc.) It's worth considering if you are really committed to the language. But of course, you could choose to live in misery among English-speakers.
We do have a cultural quarter it is called Ireland.
Surely you can do better than this.0 -
If you cannot see that there are a great many Irish people who don't speak Irish and never will, you are not being realistic.Cú Giobach wrote: »Your us and them attitude is quite pathetic.
The status quo is one of decreasing numbers of native Irish speakers using the language in their daily lives coupled to huge sums being spent prvoviding Irish lessons and services to people who do not want them.Cú Giobach wrote: »it is you who wants to change the status quo, not me.
Very catchy, but again, not realistic.Cú Giobach wrote: »We do have a cultural quarter it is called Ireland.0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »The status quo is one of decreasing numbers of native Irish speakers using the language in their daily lives coupled to huge sums being spent prvoviding Irish lessons and services to people who do not want them.
The majority of Irish people support Irish language teaching in schools to there children0 -
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The majority of Irish people support Irish language teaching in schools to there their children
Yes, but the main debate is (1) should it be compulsory until the end of second level and (2) whether teaching should be in Irish.
Whilst I would advocate the maintenance of the teaching of Irish per se, albeit with a radical overhaul of the system (18 years of education in the language has left me only with cupla focal and a vague sense of distaste) I would be opposed to it being mandatory in LC, and would also not be terribly keen on schooling through the medium of Irish (although if parents elect to send their children to gaelscoil, I suppose that's their call).
Quite frankly English is a more useful tool in one's repertoire than Gaeilge, and insofar that Irish is useful for employment, it is dependent on the sacred cow status that it bears within the state apparati.
Languages like ancient Latin, Greek, Irish, etc. are not so much useful in themselves (despite a faux dynamism which has animated the Irish corpus) but more as a means to understand indigenous culture and the evolution of one's culture.0 -
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cyclopath2001 wrote: »If you cannot see that there are a great many Irish people who don't speak Irish and never will, you are not being realistic.
I gceist leis an trácht a ghlac tú luaigh sé nach féidir daoine is mó a bhfuil Gaeilge na hÉireann, Cad é atá tú ag caint faoi?
In the post you took issue with he mentioned that most Irish people can not speak Irish, What are you talking about?The status quo is one of decreasing numbers of native Irish speakers using the language in their daily lives coupled to huge sums being spent prvoviding Irish lessons and services to people who do not want them.
Ní hé sin an scéal iomlán, An bhfuil sé?
Thats not the whole story now, is it?0 -
RandomName2 wrote: »
Whilst I would advocate the maintenance of the teaching of Irish per se, albeit with a radical overhaul of the system (18 years of education in the language has left me only with cupla focal and a vague sense of distaste) I would be opposed to it being mandatory in LC, and would also not be terribly keen on schooling through the medium of Irish (although if parents elect to send their children to gaelscoil, I suppose that's their call).
Cén fáth nach mbeadh tú a bheith ag iarraidh ar an scolaíocht trí Ghaeilge? Tá sé léirithe ag obair go maith. Aontaím go hiomlán go bhfuil gá le múineadh na Gaeilge a athchóiriú mór.
Why would you not be keen on schooling through Irish? It has been shown to work quite well. I agree fully that the teaching of Irish needs a major reform.Quite frankly English is a more useful tool in one's repertoire than Gaeilge,
Béarla is cinnte níos úsáidí, ach ansin arís múineadh na Gaeilge dáileog Ní chiallaíonn nach bhfuil daoine Béarla a fhoghlaim. Níl aon duine moladh gur chóir do dhaoine a fhoghlaim Gaeilge amháin, fiú i mBéarla Gaeilscoileanna shíl don Ardteist, agus do mhic léinn a dhéanamh go maith ann.
English is certainally more usefull, but then again teaching Irish dosent mean people dont learn English. No one has suggested that people should learn Irish only, Even in Gaeilscoileanna English is tought to the LC, and students do quite well in it.Languages like ancient Latin, Greek, Irish, etc. are not so much useful in themselves (despite a faux dynamism which has animated the Irish corpus) but more as a means to understand indigenous culture and the evolution of one's culture.
Féach ar an difríocht, Tá Ghaeilge an teanga bheo an ghrúpa.;)
Tá sé in úsáid ag na mílte mar phríomhtheanga chumarsáide
Spot the difference, Irish is the liveing language of the group.
It is used by thousands as their primary language of communication.0 -
It is a fact that almost all Irish people do not employ Irish in the conduct of their daily lives. The use of Irish as a core part of people's lives should be the benchmark of a living language.deise go deo wrote: »In the post you took issue with he mentioned that most Irish people can not speak Irish, What are you talking about?
Cú Gaobach states that the low number of Irish speakers is due to inability. I believe that it is due to the absence of a commitment to learn or speak it. The proof being the fact that people don't speak Irish after decades of edcuational opportunity.
The decline in the use of Irish as a core part of the daily lives of native speakers is at the very heart of the matter.deise go deo wrote: »Thats not the whole story now, is it?
Occasional use of Irish among enthusiasts living in the English-speaking community is the equivalent of saving tigers by keeping them in zoos.0 -
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cyclopath2001 wrote: »Cú Gaobach states that the low number of Irish speakers is due to inability. I believe that it is due to the absence of a commitment to learn or speak it.
If people don't learn to speak Irish - whether that's due to having no desire to learn, poor teaching methods in school, lack of opportunity to practice, or whatever - they are subsequently, and almost by definition, not able to speak the language.
i.e., your points aren't mutually exclusive.0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »It is a fact that almost all Irish people do not employ Irish in the conduct of their daily lives. The use of Irish as a core part of people's lives should be the benchmark of a living language.
Cú Gaobach states that the low number of Irish speakers is due to inability. I believe that it is due to the absence of a commitment to learn or speak it. The proof being the fact that people don't speak Irish after decades of edcuational opportunity.
Tá sé, Sin é an fáth go meastar í an Ghaeilge teanga bheo. Tá cainteoirí dúchais na Gaeilge, agus an Ghaeilge in úsáid mar theanga cumarsáide sa saol laethúil phobail. Go dáileog seo nach dtarlóidh sé i mBaile Átha Cliath(i ginearálta) nach dáileog Ghaeilge a bheith ina teanga marbh. (Nó ''ceann'' marbh, nó ag fáil bháis)
It is, That is why Irish is considered a living language. The word in bold is why Irish is living, There are native speakers of Irish, and Irish is used as a language of communication in peoples everyday lives. That this dosent happen in Dublin(Generally) dosent make Irish a dead language.(or ''Brain dead, or dieing for that matter)
Ní féidir leis an Lán-Gaeilge a labhairt, ní dhéanann an Lán Gaeilge a labhairt, ní gá duit an nasc a fheiceáil? Ní oideachas na Ghailge sa scoil mar atá sé anois ar bhealach éifeachtach an teanga a fhoghlaim.
The Majority can not speak Irish, The Majority do not speak Irish, You dont see the connection? Irish education in school as it is now is not an effective way to learn the language.The decline in the use of Irish as a core part of the daily lives of native speakers is at the very heart of the matter.
Ní hé sin an fachtóir amháin, is í an Ghaeilge a mhéadú in úsáid taobh amuigh den Gaelthacht, Tá sé seo mícheart neamhaird a dhéanamh.
That is not the only factor, Irish is Increasing in use outside the Gaelthacht, It is ridiculous to ignore this.Occasional use of Irish among enthusiasts living in the English-speaking community is the equivalent of saving tigers by keeping them in zoos.
Is tiger choimeád i Zú níos mó cosúil le do smaoineamh áirithint Gaeilge.
Is Conas eile teanga a athbheochan ach amháin trí úsáid?
Keeping tigers in a Zoo sounds more like your Gaeilge reservation idea too me.
How else is a language to be revived except through use?0 -
I look in on this thread quite often, and every time I look the most recent posts look very like what was there last time I looked. Maybe it is time to give it a rest until somebody comes up with a new idea.0
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If we had to accept this definition of a 'living' langauge, we could have stopped this thread on page 1. The definition of a langauge being 'dead' or 'living' might need some elaboration.deise go deo wrote: »It is, That is why Irish is considered a living language. The word in bold is why Irish is living, There are native speakers of Irish, and Irish is used as a language of communication in peoples everyday lives. That this dosent happen in Dublin(Generally) dosent make Irish a dead language.(or ''Brain dead, or dieing for that matter) [/COLOR]
That's one possible explanation (that the teachers failed to make them love Irish?), the other is that the children learned the langauge as well as any other secondary langauge and then decided not to use it.deise go deo wrote: »The Majority can not speak Irish, The Majority do not speak Irish, You dont see the connection? Irish education in school as it is now is not an effective way to learn the language.
It certainly cannot be ignored, but is it relevant to the use of Irish as a living, native langauge in daily use at the core of people's lives?deise go deo wrote: »That is not the only factor, Irish is Increasing in use outside the Gaelthacht, It is ridiculous to ignore this.
I did not propose a 'reservation'. I suggested the need for living functioning Irish-speaking communities.deise go deo wrote: »Keeping tigers in a Zoo sounds more like your Gaeilge reservation idea too me.
What kind of use and in what context?deise go deo wrote: »How else is a language to be revived except through use?0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »the children learned the langauge as well as any other secondary langauge and then decided not to use it.
Hypothetically, if you decided tomorrow that you'd like to speak Irish on a reasonably regular basis, what would be your first step? How would you go about it?0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »If we had to accept this definition of a 'living' langauge, we could have stopped this thread on page 1. The definition of a langauge being 'dead' or 'living' might need some elaboration.
Níl, is gá cuid de na daoine ach glacadh leis an sainmhíniú ar cad is teanga marbh. Níl an Ghaeilge mairbhe, tá sé mionteanga leochaileacha.;)
No, Some people just need to accept the definition of what a dead language is. Irish is not dead, It is a vulnerable minority language.That's one possible explanation (that the teachers failed to make them love Irish?), the other is that the children learned the langauge as well as any other secondary langauge and then decided not to use it.
Go múinteoir an theip chun Gaeilge a mhúineadh dóibh. Más í an Ghaeilge chomh maith ar a dtugtar an dara teanga ar bith ansin tá gá le roinnt athchóiriú tromchúiseach i múineadh na dTeangacha sa tír seo
That the teacher failed to teach them Irish. If Irish is as well known as any second language then there needs to be some serious reform in the teaching of Languages in this Country.It certainly cannot be ignored, but is it relevant to the use of Irish as a living, native langauge in daily use at the core of people's lives?
Go deimhin go bhfuil sé, Tá go leor daoine taobh amuigh den Gaelthacht a bhfuil an Ghaeilge an teanga ar an bhaile.
Indeed it is, There are many people outside the Gaelthacht for whom Irish is the language of the home.I did not propose a 'reservation'. I suggested the need for living functioning Irish-speaking communities.
Téigh ar aghaidh go dtí Cearra Rua agus sampla a fheiceáil.
Head over to Cearra Rua and see one.What kind of use and in what context?
Gach cineál úsáid agus i ngach comhthéacs.
Every kind of use and in every context.0 -
If I wished to beocme proficient in Irish and speak it regularly, but not all the time, I'd look to evening classes, then a long spell in a good Gaeltacht and then join a cultural group. I'd expect to do all of this at my own expense, just as I learn any other second langauge.Leto wrote:Hypothetically, if you decided tomorrow that you'd like to speak Irish on a reasonably regular basis, what would be your first step? How would you go about it?
For al most all Irish children, it is not their first language. How could teaching change this?deise go deo wrote: »If Irish is as well known as any second language then there needs to be some serious reform in the teaching of Languages in this Country.
That's nice.deise go deo wrote: »There are many people outside the Gaelthacht for whom Irish is the language of the home.
So where is the Irish language lobby's plan to expand and propagate this model?deise go deo wrote: »Head over to Cearra Rua and see one.
Nice catch-all, but when it comes to public money, there needs to be measurable goals and progress indicators.deise go deo wrote: »Every kind of use and in every context.0 -
deise go deo wrote: »Cén fáth nach mbeadh tú a bheith ag iarraidh ar an scolaíocht trí Ghaeilge? Tá sé léirithe ag obair go maith. Aontaím go hiomlán go bhfuil gá le múineadh na Gaeilge a athchóiriú mór.
Why would you not be keen on schooling through Irish? It has been shown to work quite well. I agree fully that the teaching of Irish needs a major reform.[/COLOR]
Primarily because it is disproportionate, but there is also a more serious and problematic concern of cultural-nationalism. I think that one could agree that it might be more pragmatic for predominantly Gaeilge speaking families to school their children through that same language; but this also misses the point.
Unfortunately, due to the circumstances of Irish history in the 20th century, the concept of 'what it means to be Irish' gained unparalleled significance in the psyche of the body-politic of Ireland. The consequences of this can not be underestimated; its shadow spread from 1916 to the War of Independence, to the Civil War, to the partition, even to the Troubles. Indeed, you don't have to go far in boards.ie to find those who wrap themselves in the Tri-Colour, proclaim their republican credentials and condone cold blooded murder.
Now what has this to do with the humble Irish language? Ostensibly not much; armalites and ballot boxes are necessarily quite removed from linguistic concerns. However, as Douglas Hyde found out (to his cost), the Irish language is an ideal vehicle to establish an independent identity. Language is seen by many as the cornerstone of nationalism.
And indeed it is; and in a bid to steer this away from a very simplistic analysis of the IRA's use of some throwaway phrases in Irish in an attempt to engender national pathos in their campaign, I want to point to the very real (if nowadays somewhat archaic) concept that you aren't truly Irish if you can't speak Irish.
To a large extent this sort of nonsense went out at the same time as the concept that you weren't really Irish if you weren't Catholic (and prepared to genuflect to the Church).
Nevertheless you cannot be entirely unaware of the division that naturally springs from having a language that others will not understand? Your natural response would probably be to counter this idea by suggesting that politeness is the only thing necessary to bridge any cultural gap. Yet, we are not here talking about people who choose to learn Irish off their own bat, and use it as they will, but rather its position within the state as a compulsory subject, and moreover its position in schools where its use for all subjects is mandatory. Those who cannot speak Irish in the latter context are cultural aberrants.
During the Celtic Tiger gaelscoile also gained snob appeal, in areas at least where Irish would not be the language at home. Of course, the LC has always been biased in favour of Irish speakers, and those with their eyes for the main chance have been keen to pick up on that fact.
So I might go to the Gaeltacht and be embraced as a fellow Irish-man, and I know that, certainly for the most-part, that that would be the case. But can you see how this can foster a division within society whereby another national can become an alien? Toleration and cultural cohesion are not quite the same thing.deise go deo wrote: »Féach ar an difríocht, Tá Ghaeilge an teanga bheo an ghrúpa.;)
Tá sé in úsáid ag na mílte mar phríomhtheanga chumarsáide
Spot the difference, Irish is the living language of the group.
It is used by thousands as their primary language of communication.
There is a difference between preservation and life-support. Give me enough money and the power of the state and I am sure I could get, at the very least ancient Latin, the status of a living language in this state within 20 years. I could even tie it in with Ireland's ancient ecclesiastical identity. However, could I ever bring myself to bring bastardised English words into this language? Hellicoptus for helicopter? Televisio for television? It might be easier than I thought.
I appreciate your love for the language, but a love of the end and a love of the means can be divided from one another.0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »For al most all Irish children, it is not their first language. How could teaching change this?
Ní raibh mé le fios d'fhéadfadh sé, is féidir é a thabhairt dóibh ar an gcumas chun comhrá a dhéanamh trí Ghaeilge. Má shocraigh siad ansin bhí siad ag dul sa tóir air d'fhéadfadh siad a bheith go hiomlán líofa i bhfad níos éasca
I dident suggest it could, It can give them the ability to hold a conversation through Irish. If they then decided they wanted to pursue it they could become fully fluent much easier.So where is the Irish language lobby's plan to expand and propagate this model?
Plean níos fearr mar a bheadh sé Gaeilge a chur chun cinn do gach duine.
Arguably a better plan as it would promote Irish for everyone.
Cultúrlann
FnaGNice catch-all, but when it comes to public money, there needs to be measurable goals and progress indicators.
Go deimhin sé dáileog, ach ansin nach raibh airgead poiblí a phlé linn, bhí plé againn ar úsáid na Gaeilge ag cainteoirí dúchais iad.
Indeed it dose, but then we were not discussing public money, we were discussing the use of Irish by non native speakers.0 -
RandomName2 wrote: »Primarily because it is disproportionate
How so?but there is also a more serious and problematic concern of cultural-nationalism. I think that one could agree that it might be more pragmatic for predominantly Gaeilge speaking families to school their children through that same language; but this also misses the point.
Unfortunately, due to the circumstances of Irish history in the 20th century, the concept of 'what it means to be Irish' gained unparalleled significance in the psyche of the body-politic of Ireland. The consequences of this can not be underestimated; its shadow spread from 1916 to the War of Independence, to the Civil War, to the partition, even to the Troubles. Indeed, you don't have to go far in boards.ie to find those who wrap themselves in the Tri-Colour, proclaim their republican credentials and condone cold blooded murder.
Now what has this to do with the humble Irish language? Ostensibly not much; armalites and ballot boxes are necessarily quite removed from linguistic concerns. However, as Douglas Hyde found out (to his cost), the Irish language is an ideal vehicle to establish an independent identity. Language is seen by many as the cornerstone of nationalism.
You said you supported the teaching of Irish, could this argument not also be applied to that? I disagree with Irish being lumped in with Nationalism. Republicans have not got exclusive rights to Irish or Irish identity. And I say that as a republican myself. There are even unionists in NI who can speak Irish. The Cultúrlanns(Irish language centers) in Belfast and Derry actively try to engage with the Protestant communityI want to point to the very real (if nowadays somewhat archaic) concept that you aren't truly Irish if you can't speak Irish.
That argument is largely a fallacy. I can confidentially say that is not the opinion of the Irish language community in general. Think how many times you have heard someone actually suggest that, not often I would imagine. It is said far more often by those who argue against Irish than by those who argue for Irish. It is a stick to beat Irish with and nothing more.There is a difference between preservation and life-support. Give me enough money and the power of the state and I am sure I could get, at the very least ancient Latin, the status of a living language in this state within 20 years. I could even tie it in with Ireland's ancient ecclesiastical identity. However, could I ever bring myself to bring bastardised English words into this language? Hellicoptus for helicopter? Televisio for television? It might be easier than I thought.
Possibly, however the critical difference being that Irish people want Irish to be preserved as a living language.
As for incorporating words from other languages. How many words has English borrowed? There are even Irish words used in English. Every language borrows words. You use Television as an example for Irish, Dose the word Television not itself incorporate a bastardisation of greek?0 -
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deise go deo wrote: »That argument is largely a fallacy. I can confidentially say that is not the opinion of the Irish language community in general. Think how many times you have heard someone actually suggest that, not often I would imagine. It is said far more often by those who argue against Irish than by those who argue for Irish. It is a stick to beat Irish with and nothing more.
How can you square that then with the fact that regardless of want, need or cost everyone in this country has to learn it?0 -
How can you square that then with the fact that regardless of want, need or cost everyone in this country has to learn it?
Cad tá sin a dhéanamh leis. Níl daoine a bhfuil spéis sa Ghaeilge a mheas daoine nach bhfuil in ann Gaeilge a labhairt na Gaeilge a bheith níos lú. Tá a fhios agam nach bhfuil mé.
What has that to do with it. People who have an Interest in Irish do not conceder people who are not able to speak Irish to be less Irish. I know I dont.0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »If you cannot see that there are a great many Irish people who don't speak Irish and never will, you are not being realistic.
Since I can see this fact perfectly clearly and have no problem whatsoever with it and have neither here nor elsewhere ever said otherwise, you are obviously talking through your arse.The status quo is one of decreasing numbers of native Irish speakers using the language in their daily lives coupled to huge sums being spent prvoviding Irish lessons and services to people who do not want them.
Which seems to be making your life miserable, my heart bleeds.Very catchy, but again, not realistic.
Ireland is the home of Irish culture, If you don't like that tough.0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »If I wished to beocme proficient in Irish and speak it regularly, but not all the time, I'd look to evening classes, then a long spell in a good Gaeltacht and then join a cultural group. I'd expect to do all of this at my own expense, just as I learn any other second langauge.
So: the starting point is that you are unable at the moment to speak Irish to any meaningful degree, having (I presume and please correct me if I'm wrong) gone through the fairly useless curriculum in school. I'm not trying to be glib - this is meant as an observation, not a criticism.
This doesn't seem a million miles removed from deise go deo's comment above that the Irish curriculum as it stands does not facilitate people actually learning the language. (I would add that the same is largely true for our other language curricula.) Most people leave school unable to speak more than a few phrases of Irish, or any other language, even though languages aren't intrinsically harder to learn than any other subject. Practiced and used, it really shouldn't be that difficult, as billions of polyglots around the world will attest... but in Ireland it is. More specifically, I would hazard a guess that a lot of current or recent Leaving Certificate students might actually be surprised at the number of individual bits and pieces of vocabulary they'd recognise, but they lack any sort of belief in their ability to integrate their knowledge in spontaneous, self-generated communication.
It's an entirely reasonable position - with no experience of speaking a second language, why would you think you can? Spontaneous self-generated second-language communication does not often occur in our schools, and that applies to French or German as much as Irish. Students write their way through school until the Leaving Cert., when oral communication comes slightly more to the fore - in formalised, semi-rote fashion. Plausible answers are learned off for oral exams for a pre-decided subset of scenarios, because it clearly wouldn't do to have a conversation with an examiner follow a natural course, as conversations do in the real world. Without a real conception of language as a mode of communication - rather than as a series of hoops to be jumped during an exam - and the willingness to speak French/Irish/whatever shakily instead of not at all, it doesn't get anything more than the barest outing on holiday... if even. And the knowledge withers, and people learn to think of languages as being difficult to acquire, or learn to think of themselves as people for whom languages are hard.
And then we arrive at a position where someone can decide that they want to try to learn a language as an adult. So they enroll in an evening class - if they can find one in their area, have the time, can afford the expense of the course, can find a babysitter if needed, and can shift into a mindset completely different to the one at school, where what is needed is trying to use what you know and allowing people to correct you rather than carefully constructing a safe sentence so it can be read out to the rest of the class, avoiding embarrassment. If Irish is the language in question, they could go for an extended stay in a Gaeltacht area, which would be wonderful for immersion learning - if they don't have a job, a family, or any other commitments at home which preclude such an extended stay, and can afford the expense of extended temporary accomodation. For any language, they can join a cultural group or conversation circle - again, if they can find one, the time suits, they can afford any attendant expense, if they're willing and able by this stage to speak naturally, and if meeting up once a week in the same place to speak with the same people is satisfying enough.
What I'm trying to say, in my long-winded way, is that it seems a lot simpler to me to change the teaching methods at school, for other languages as much as Irish. At the moment, people by and large can't speak Irish, and people by and large don't speak Irish. Everyone accepts that. If students left school thinking of languages primarily as spoken entities, as a tool for conversation and not merely as a complicated way to interpret poetry (for Irish) or to write business letters to hotels (for other languages), I'd be much happier. If a critical mass is reached of people who can genuinely speak Irish, then by all means it can live or die on those terms if those people choose to ignore it. But we're a long way from there.0 -
It's indeed very sad. I cannot believe you could be comnfortable with what is happening.Cú Giobach wrote: »
Which seems to be making your life miserable, my heart bleeds.The status quo is one of decreasing numbers of native Irish speakers using the language in their daily lives coupled to huge sums being spent prvoviding Irish lessons and services to people who do not want them.
Of course it is. And some people speaking Irish is a part of this.Cú Giobach wrote: »Ireland is the home of Irish culture, If you don't like that tough.0 -
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I agree, it is an extremely common thread that runs through the pro Irish language people. I would strongly suspect the tacit support of the language by the majority in surveys is as much to do with being marked down as "not Irish enough" by this attitude. If they did agree, well then they would be using the language.RandomName2 wrote: »I want to point to the very real (if nowadays somewhat archaic) concept that you aren't truly Irish if you can't speak Irish.
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Very common, but at least CG is honest about it. Though the phrase "Ireland is the home of Irish culture" is a loaded and very complex one. Irish "culture" is a very broad definition and it should be. It should not be boiled down to language, nor should it be pickled in aspic. If you do that, then you're gonna have to throw out a helluva lot of our rich past present and future heritage while you're at it.Cú Giobach wrote: »Ireland is the home of Irish culture, If you don't like that tough.
You probably could. Which then begs the obvious question; if indeed the Irish people have such a love and cultural need for the language, then why after the guts of a century and literally billions in cash and strong proactive support having been fired at it's revival are we having this conversation? We can blame the education system(and I would), but there's more to it. Other languages have been revived in much shorter time frames, with less financial and government backing. IMHO simply because people wanted to use them in a practical and active way.There is a difference between preservation and life-support. Give me enough money and the power of the state and I am sure I could get, at the very least ancient Latin, the status of a living language in this state within 20 years. I could even tie it in with Ireland's ancient ecclesiastical identity.
We can go on all day about surveys that say the majority of the people in this country support the language. That's fine, but try running the same survey exclusively in Irish and see how many can even understand the gist of it, never mind reply to any degree of fluency. This old equation simply doesn't add up. I was stopped in the street a few years back as part of such a survey and the clearly passionate chap doing the asking didn't see the sad irony of this.
+1I appreciate your love for the language, but a love of the end and a love of the means can be divided from one another.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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RandomName2 wrote: »Of course, the LC has always been biased in favour of Irish speakers, and those with their eyes for the main chance have been keen to pick up on that fact.
Replying to this a little bit late, but something rang a bell with me yesterday and I wanted to check it out. There's a paper in the latest edition of the Irish Journal of Education which states that the popular perception that sitting the Leaving Cert. through Irish bestows an advantage on candidates is overstated. The authors note that approximately 2% of candidates requested an Irish-language paper in advance of the LC in 2002. Of these, requests came almost entirely from Irish-medium schools, from girls more than boys, from Higher Level candidates more than Ordinary, and for subjects carrying a 5% bonus more than a 10% bonus... and 30% of these candidates opted to sit the exam through English on the day anyway. I quote: "All of these effects are consistent with the assumption that Irish-medium papers pose an additional academic challenge for candidates of the same kind that is posed by the examination itself."
Regarding CAO points specifically, it was found that 52% of candidates sitting through Irish gained no bonus at all, 42% gained five extra points, and 5% gained ten points. In real terms, we're talking about approximately forty students who gained ten bonus points, which is a bit of a stretch from "the LC has always been biased in favour of Irish speakers and they've been keen to pick up on that".0 -
Unfortunately it also shows that only forty students have good enough Irish to sit an exam that assumes they are fluent in Irish. Now of course there will be some reduction of the numbers anyway since you could be fluent in Irish without knowing its technical vocabulary, e.g. meicnic chandamach (quantum mechanics). However it is still something to note.Regarding CAO points specifically, it was found that 52% of candidates sitting through Irish gained no bonus at all, 42% gained five extra points, and 5% gained ten points. In real terms, we're talking about approximately forty students who gained ten bonus points, which is a bit of a stretch from "the LC has always been biased in favour of Irish speakers and they've been keen to pick up on that".0 -
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Fair enough, but it still isn't great. Eight hundred sat through Irish, but only around three hundred and eighty four (roughly) had any benefit confered on them. If the students were equal confortable with both languages then they should have gotten the five extra bonus point. Now possibly the situation is better than this, because of uniform reduction of marks, but:This is not true. Please read what was written.
Total number of students who, at Leaving Cert Level, have studied Irish for thirteen years: 45,984
Numbers with good enough Irish to do papers in Irish: 384
Ratio: 120:1
That is roughly the success rate of the educational system.
Also consider that the 10% bonus is for: History, Geography, Physics, Chemistry, Physics and Chemistry, Biology, Science and Business. Only forty people were capable of doing these through Irish well enough.0
This discussion has been closed.
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