Is Irish a dead language?

Wibbs

Enkidu wrote: »

That is roughly the success rate of the educational system.

It also shows up a pretty bleak picture of the level of fluency out there and makes the claims of 100,000 fluent Irish speakers in the country more than a bit of a pipedream. Then again that's taken from census figures and self reported surveys are usually dubious. How can Irish be our national official language wanted by the majority when faced with those figures? It simply does not compute.

It would be interesting to see the stats over the years. Has it gone up or down? Even if it is only 400 last year, but was 100 ten years ago, it would be at least some progress.

deise go deo

Enkidu wrote: »

Fair enough, but it still isn't great. Eight hundred sat through Irish, but only around three hundred and eighty four (roughly) had any benefit confered on them. If the students were equal confortable with both languages then they should have gotten the five extra bonus point. Now possibly the situation is better than this, because of uniform reduction of marks,

You assume they would have gotten a better result had they sat the paper through English. That may not be the case.

Total number of students who, at Leaving Cert Level, have studied Irish for thirteen years: 45,984
Numbers with good enough Irish to do papers in Irish: 384

Thats not the number good enough to do a paper through Irish, Thats the number who did the paper through Irish. Are only those who get the bonus marks good enough to do a paper through Irish, Are those who get poor marks when doing a paper through English not good enough to do it through English?

Raitio 120/1

That is roughly the success rate of the educational system.

Yes, Its bad, we know, that would be why a major reform is needed.

Also consider that the 10% bonus is for: History, Geography, Physics, Chemistry, Physics and Chemistry, Biology, Science and Business. Only forty people were capable of doing these through Irish well enough.

Again that is not how many were able to, thats just how many actually did.

Enkidu

Hey deise go deo,
All your criticisms are fair, but I'm trying to get a rough estimate here and hopefully after some explanation my assumptions will seem decent enough.

deise go deo wrote: »

You assume they would have gotten a better result had they sat the paper through English. That may not be the case.

I'm only assuming that they would have gotten the same or somewhat less in order for the five percent bonus to hold.

Thats not the number good enough to do a paper through Irish, Thats the number who did the paper through Irish. Are only those who get the bonus marks good enough to do a paper through Irish, Are those who get poor marks when doing a paper through English not good enough to do it through English?

I can understand what you are saying, but I am making a reasonable assumption. If you are fluent in a language and will be guaranteed higher marks (up to uniform reduction of marks), then most people would take it. Particularly since the marks apply more the worse you did in the actual test (down to 75%).

Also, let us say I am utterly wrong and there are in fact students completely fluent in Irish who do not wish to take the exam, ignoring the benefit for some reason, will it really raise the ratio to the 10:1 region?

Even if we assume a fifty percent error in my assumptions, which I think is not the case, we only hit 60:1.

I don't want to seem negative deise, you're an enthusiastic speaker of the language and I would hate to sap any of that away, but I think a hard numerical fact like 120/60:1 is something which gives a good indication of how bad things currently are.

Of course I believe things would be just as bad for other languages, or at least in the same region. Although a lot of people claim "Sure I can speak better French than Irish!", as somebody who can speak French I know this is not the case for the large majority I have met.

So those are the figures, at least roughly. Is it a consequence of the normal trend between anglophones and other languages or is it something else? That is, are there effects particular to Irish which dominate over the Anglophone one? I don't know.

deise go deo

Enkidu wrote: »

Hey deise go deo,
All your criticisms are fair, but I'm trying to get a rough estimate here and hopefully after some explanation my assumptions will seem decent enough.


I'm only assuming that they would have gotten the same or somewhat less in order for the five percent bonus to hold.

I can understand what you are saying, but I am making a reasonable assumption. If you are fluent in a language and will be guaranteed higher marks (up to uniform reduction of marks), then most people would take it. Particularly since the marks apply more the worse you did in the actual test (down to 75%).

Also, let us say I am utterly wrong and there are in fact students completely fluent in Irish who do not wish to take the exam, ignoring the benefit for some reason, will it really raise the ratio to the 10:1 region?

Even if we assume a fifty percent error in my assumptions, which I think is not the case, we only hit 60:1.

I don't want to seem negative deise, you're an enthusiastic speaker of the language and I would hate to sap any of that away, but I think a hard numerical fact like 120/60:1 is something which gives a good indication of how bad things currently are.

Of course I believe things would be just as bad for other languages, or at least in the same region. Although a lot of people claim "Sure I can speak better French than Irish!", as somebody who can speak French I know this is not the case for the large majority I have met.

So those are the figures, at least roughly. Is it a consequence of the normal trend between anglophones and other languages or is it something else? That is, are there effects particular to Irish which dominate over the Anglophone one? I don't know.

Of the students capable of doing the test through Irish I doubt a high proportion do as English would still be their first language, When going into an exam like the LC the last thing you will do is take a chance on doing the test through your second language. If every one capable of doing the exam through Irish did the Ratio would probably be lowered to around 40:1 but that would include students who did worse than they would do if they sat the test through English.

I know the Ratio is Bad, But so is the education system.

Focalbhach

Enkidu wrote: »

Fair enough, but it still isn't great. Eight hundred sat through Irish, but only around three hundred and eighty four (roughly) had any benefit confered on them. If the students were equal confortable with both languages then they should have gotten the five extra bonus point. Now possibly the situation is better than this, because of uniform reduction of marks, but:

Total number of students who, at Leaving Cert Level, have studied Irish for thirteen years: 45,984
Numbers with good enough Irish to do papers in Irish: 384

Ratio: 120:1

The number of students with "good enough Irish to do papers in Irish" was not 384. You already know this, as I've highlighted in your post. I assume that the confusion is due to casual phrasing rather than being deliberate, and I'll ask you to please be more careful with your language.

You're starting from the premise that students who are as "comfortable" in Irish as in English should almost automatically find themselves with bonus points. It's worth clarifying here that students don't gain any extra CAO points merely for sitting an exam in Irish. Where points can be gained is if the bonus for Irish (which is scaled down at higher grades) takes a student's points subtotal for the exam over the nearest, rounded, 5-point boundary, since CAO points are awarded in multiples of 5. This - clearly - is not an automatic process. Again, I'll quote from the paper: "The expected value of the bonus [weighted by probability of occurrence] is 5.32 points for subject carrying a 10% bonus, and ‎‎2.04 points for subjects carrying a bonus of 5% or less.‎" A fluent student could attain 2 extra raw CAO points with a complete 5% bonus, but unless those 2 points push them over the next highest grade boundary they see no overall points increase.

Wibbs

Leto wrote: »

The number of students with "good enough Irish to do papers in Irish" was not 384. You already know this, as I've highlighted in your post. I assume that the confusion is due to casual phrasing rather than being deliberate, and I'll ask you to please be more careful with your language.

OK so out of 46,000 LC students, nearly all of whom would have studied Irish and apparently the language is in resurgence and vital and everyday, yet only 800 use it in the exams? If it was 4000 it would be bad enough, but 800? And only 40 feel truly proficient enough in what is supposed to be our deeply loved national language to do the 10% subjects? No matter which way you look at the figures you must objectively see that they do not bode well for the state or use of the language in this country.

Focalbhach

Wibbs wrote: »

And only 40 feel truly proficient enough in what is supposed to be our deeply loved national language to do the 10% subjects?

This has already been addressed - including, in fact, in the post you're quoting. Read what has been written.

Wibbs

I have read what is written and it doesn't come close to explaining how something supposed to be our national language that is so deeply important to our cultural identity as a people only has 800 doing the LC in the medium of that language out of 46,000. If there were as many fluent in the language as claimed, if the interest in the language was as high as claimed, then that figure would be higher. Far higher. Simple as that. The 5/10% part is a red herring IMHO. As is ignoring the 800 figure.

EDIT put it another way; if we were spending millions a year on I dunno, Esperanto or any other subject and had been doing so since the foundation of the state, yet those above figures were the results, would you consider that a worthwhile investment? I seriously doubt it.

Focalbhach

Wibbs wrote: »

I have read what is written and it doesn't come close to explaining how something supposed to be our national language that is so deeply important to our cultural identity as a people only has 800 doing the LC in the medium of that language out of 46,000. If there were as many fluent in the language as claimed, if the interest in the language was as high as claimed, then that figure would be higher. Far higher. Simple as that. The 5/10% part is a red herring IMHO. As is ignoring the 800 figure.

What I was responding to was the notion, which has been brought up in this thread more than once before the latest outing, that Irish-speaking students are unduly advantaged in the Leaving Certificate. That doesn't appear to be the case. The 5% and 10% bonuses are the basis for the 'advantage' perception, so I'm astonished that you could consider their discussion to be a red herring.

On a wider note, the figures provided have been misquoted twice in the last eleven replies - by two different posters - when the correct figure was easily available both times. You seem to have found it without any problem this time, for example. Disregarding the range of positions people occupy along the spectrum of opinion on this topic and subsequent interpretations arising, it would be nice if the discussion could progress in good faith.

dubhthach

There are only 36 Gaelcholáiste (Irish medium secondary school) in the country with a total of 7,468 students. As I don't know how many of these offer transition year I'm gonna go with an average of 5.5years

7,468 ÷ 5.5 = 1358 (rounded up)

There are 26 Gaelteacht secondary schools with a total of 3,030 students. If we go with 5.5 years on average.

3,030 ÷ 5.5 = 551 (round up)

So potentially there are about 1,909 students sitting the Leaving Cert in Irish medium schools.

Of course a recent enough report says that 10% of students leaving Gaeltacht post-primary schools have next to no Irish and a further 18% have "reasonable" Irish. I'm assuming this is mainly due to Gaeltacht boundaries not reflecting the situation on the ground given they were drawn up in 1956.

So you are probably down to at lest 1,600 leaving cert students who are actually receiving all of their education through Irish.

It wouldn't surprise me if only 40-50% of these did all their exams in Irish. From what I recall of my Leaving cert (I went to English speaking secondary school) I spent at least 5hours a week in grinds + home economics (not offered in school). I also spent my Easter holidays on "Grinds courses". I never once saw grinds or study courses been offered for the likes of Maths/Physics/Chemistry/Biology/History/Geography through Irish. Now Galway city even though it's right next to the Gaeltacht only had one Gaelchólaiste which was fairly new at the time so I'm not surprised.

Likewise all of the publications released every year that contain sample answers/essays are only ever published in english.

Given that the leaving cert is basically just a "Learn off by heart - regurgitate on the day" exam it's hardly surprising given the level of preparatory resources available in english that students would sit the exam through it.

Wibbs

Leto wrote: »

What I was responding to was the notion, which has been brought up in this thread more than once before the latest outing, that Irish-speaking students are unduly advantaged in the Leaving Certificate. That doesn't appear to be the case. The 5% and 10% bonuses are the basis for the 'advantage' perception, so I'm astonished that you could consider their discussion to be a red herring.

It's a red herring on both sides, but the bald figures are anything but. 800 from 46,000. And of that 800, only 40 students took the exam subjects where 10% was on the table. These are minuscule numbers we're dealing with here. Even if we take dubhthach's figures we're talking in the couple of thousands at best.

Saying as you did "Again that is not how many were able to, thats just how many actually did" is with respect a cop out. Whichever way you cut the cake a possible extra 10% mark is pretty respectable. If they were able to, they would in the majority of cases.

I do agree with you when you said "Of the students capable of doing the test through Irish I doubt a high proportion do as English would still be their first language, When going into an exam like the LC the last thing you will do is take a chance on doing the test through your second language". Again that says a lot about the use of what is described as our culture and official language and it's fluency. The figures speak for themselves. Either Irish as a language is limited in the modern world and in the academic world(which would be BS of the highest order) or the fluency of the language in modern Ireland beyond basic "hello how are you" kind of conversation is limited. Though I do take on board dubhthach's angle re ancillary study aids etc.

Now lets all step back and try and look objectively at this. Regardless of our opinions on the language itself. I've given this example in other threads; Spain. The majority of Spanish people speak Spanish(we'll ignore the Catalan issue for the purposes of this example). A small group speak Basque(Galician could be another example). Now imagine if for the past century Basque was constitutionally the primary or co primary language with Spanish. That Basque was on all the street signs. That all gov documents had to be translated into Basque. That advantage was given to Basque in civil service careers and the law. That every kid had to learn Basque in school by law. That there was an advantage in taking academic exams in Basque(albeit as you say small). That in order to get into national universities you required a pass mark in Basque. That Basque radio TV and the arts was propped up by government money. That there was a public political drive for Basque which spent billions over that century, that then insisted that the EU recognised Basque(again costing a goodly sum). And most of all a survey of Spaniards showed they stood proud and said Basque was their language and important to their culture. OK then go on a trip to Spain after learning Basque. What you would find would be pretty damned close to what you find in Ireland. You wouldn't get very far save for a tiny enclave in the north west and you would wonder what the hell was going on and you might think them a bit daft and you would wonder why this was being pushed when the evidence of your own ears told you something very different. If you were of a tin foil hat bent you might well think there was a conspiracy of Basque teachers and schools bent on making extra money.

Actually Basque as a language is a good example of a revival. Under Franco it was seriously hammered. It was banned outright pretty much. He's only dead 34 years and I've heard more Basque spoken in everyday life in a week in northern Spain than I've heard Irish outside of a classroom in my whole life. And I'm Irish for fecks sake.

What do I blame for this? Not the language. Not even so much the education system(which is/was dire on this score). I blame us. The Irish themselves. A small group try, but the vast majority pay lip service to the language and we do it as Bearla.

Wibbs

dubhthach wrote: »

Given that the leaving cert is basically just a "Learn off by heart - regurgitate on the day" exam it's hardly surprising given the level of preparatory resources available in english that students would sit the exam through it.

True and is no real indication how much the language used for it will translate into adulthood. My mother as an example was schooled entirely in Irish in her secondary education. I gather it was common enough back in the 40/50's. This was in Jackeen Dublin too. Like you suggested she learned it parrot fashion and secured a reasonable result too. She can't speak a word of the language today, nor couldn't soon after leaving second level. Though if you ask her she'll be quick to go along with the notion of it being very important culturally. Actually that kinda illustrates my point about the irish and their attitude to the language. Her brother was schooled in English, yet after school he became interested in Irish, got into the whole wearing of the Fainne etc and is now fluent according to himself. He simply wanted to learn, my mother didn't. If people don't see a value in it beyond empty words about culture, they won't learn it and no matter how much money and effort is thrown at it it will remain a minority language.

PS dubhthach looks like we share the same Y DNA group anyway. Oul Neill got around :)

Focalbhach

Wibbs wrote: »

It's a red herring on both sides.

To clarify: I'm not trying to score any points. I just want the information that gets thrown out here to be accurate!

Wibbs wrote: »

And of that 800, only 40 students took the exam subjects where 10% was on the table.

... as an example of which, I think you've misread. 40 students (I think 42 was the exact number, off the top of my head) received ten extra CAO points. Plenty of other students sat those exams through Irish and did not. The numbers, as you say, are small in relative terms, but are much higher than forty. The reason for the (common) misunderstanding about the bonus may be in the mechanism by which the it is calculated and applied - i.e. raw bonus points ‎≠‎ actual attained CAO points - which I've outlined a few posts up.

Wibbs wrote: »

Saying as you did "Again that is not how many were able to, thats just how many actually did" is with respect a cop out.

...

I do agree with you when you said "Of the students capable of doing the test through Irish I doubt a high proportion do as English would still be their first language, When going into an exam like the LC the last thing you will do is take a chance on doing the test through your second language".

I didn't say either of those things, so I'll let deise go deo (I think) take you up on those points

Wibbs wrote: »

What do I blame for this? Not the language. Not even so much the education system(which is/was dire on this score). I blame us. The Irish themselves. A small group try, but the vast majority pay lip service to the language and we do it as Bearla.

There's certainly truth in that. I do think we have issues with languages in general in this country (as I posted yesterday), and Irish has lots of extra baggage. It's a problem.

dubhthach

Wibbs,

I think Basque and Irish were probably in a fairly comparable position in the early 19th century in their respective area of origin (Ireland, Basque country). One key difference though was that the Basque country became heavily industrialized so there wasn't the same incentive to give up the language during the 19th century as there was in Ireland (emigration, poverty etc.).

As there was no comparable mass-depopulation the basque speaking area remain generally quite coherent. Though of course it shrunk. The same could be said for the compact population of Székely in Transylvania. Over 75% of population still speak Hungarian within Székelyföld (Szekler land) though of course Romanian has made inroads due to government policy there over the last 90 years (Transylvania was given to Romania after WW1, after been part of Kingdom of Hungary for 1,000 years)

Just to expand abit on the Basque point. I'm from Galway City, I've lived in Dublin now for 3years. One of major differences I notice between the two (other then size etc.) is the near total absence of Irish language. I think I've heard people speaking Irish in public about 5 times in 3years in Dublin. On average I'd overhear conversations in Irish in Galway a couple times a week!
No doubt it's equivalent of hearing Basque in areas around the Basque country and hearing it in Madrid!

Enkidu

Leto wrote: »

The number of students with "good enough Irish to do papers in Irish" was not 384. You already know this, as I've highlighted in your post. I assume that the confusion is due to casual phrasing rather than being deliberate, and I'll ask you to please be more careful with your language.

You are correct, I wasn't being careful with my use of language and will be more careful in future.

Speaking correctly, as it stands only 800 out of 46,000 were willing to do the tests in Irish. That still gives the appalling ratio of 115:2. For every 115 Leaving Cert students who sat the Irish examination papers, most of whom would have been doing Irish for thirteen years, only 2 felt comfortable doing a paper through Irish. 1.73% of the student population who studied Irish, felt willing to do a test in another subject in Irish.

This involves accepting the 800 figure at face value. Only 384 ended up doing better "CAO wise". As a "first order approximation", one should expect somebody with equally good Irish and English to do better in the Irish test. So this gives some indication of comfort levels with the language, although nothing explicit since there is the second order "Exam to CAO points" effect.

The most important point made in this regard was by dubhthach. There is very little in the way of study material for other subjects through Irish, so it is possible that there are many who are comfortable with the language, but feel unprepared for exams in it. I see this often in physics, where students will often sit advanced subjects (e.g. quantum field theory) in English, since most of the text books are in that language.

It's interesting to note that this 1.73%, if we assume it is somewhat consistent and can be applied to the general population, gives 77,850. This is close to the 72,000 who claim to use the language daily (outside education) on census returns.

To be honest I don't really know what to think about the actual number who speak the language well. I would say it's around 100,000 but that depends a good deal on what you define as "speaking it well".

Cú Giobach

Wibbs wrote: »

Very common, but at least CG is honest about it. Though the phrase "Ireland is the home of Irish culture" is a loaded and very complex one. Irish "culture" is a very broad definition and it should be. It should not be boiled down to language, nor should it be pickled in aspic. If you do that, then you're gonna have to throw out a helluva lot of our rich past present and future heritage while you're at it.

In fairness this comment was a response to a post saying we should have a "cultural quarter" regarding the Irish language and culture and I said we have one, called Ireland.
I wouldn't even begin to try and define "Irish culture" and having traveled a fair bit, I have seen the international aspects of this at first hand.
The comment was a casual one and is actually rather valid insomuch as this island is the area where the "seeds" of things Irish were initially grown and then spread worldwide to become what is there today.

AlexderFranke

Go deimhin! Tá an Ghaeilge fós le cloisteáil agus le feiceáil i nGaillimh. Uair amháin, chonaic mé fógra le hiarr i dtreo an sochaí.
Ní hé BÁC an chathair amháin le beágáinín Gaeilge isteach. Níl ann ach cípla cathair nó baile mór leis an nGaeilge le tabhairt faoi déara níos mó.
Go deimhin, is bealghrá a thugann an-chuid Éireannach don Ghaeilge. Déarfainn gur tacú síochánta den mhóramh agus tacú gníomhach den mhionlach na n-Éireannach atá ann. Glacann formhór na n-Éireannach le polasaí ar son na Gaeilge agus tacaíonn siad í go comharthannach, ach amháin beagchuid an dhaonra.
Taobh eile de, ní bhíonn an Ghaeilge marbh ar fad go soiléir. Uaireanta, is féidir comhrá as Gaeilge a dhéanamh ar fud na tíre. Agus bíonn siad seo le sách-Ghaeilge sásta i a labhairt den chuid is mó má chuireann tú seolach as Gaeilge orthu agus tú ag rá gur fearr leat an Ghaeilge.

Yes indeed. Irish is still to be heard and seen in Galway. One time, I have seen a placard with a postulation towards the society.
Dublin is not the only city with little Irish in it. There are only a few cities with Irish to be more noticeable.
It is indeed lip service which pay many Irish people to Irish. I would say that there is passive support by the majority and active support by a minority of Irish people. Most Irish accept policies in favour of Irish and sipport it symbolically, except for a small part of the population.
On the other hand, Irish is not completely dead. Sometimes, you can have a conversation in Irish all over the country. And most of them with reasonale Irish are willing to speak Irish with you if you address them in Irish and if you say that you prefer Irish.

dubhthach

Enkidu wrote: »

Speaking correctly, as it stands only 800 out of 46,000 were willing to do the tests in Irish. That still gives the appalling ratio of 115:2. For every 115 Leaving Cert students who sat the Irish examination papers, most of whom would have been doing Irish for thirteen years, only 2 felt comfortable doing a paper through Irish. 1.73% of the student population who studied Irish, felt willing to do a test in another subject in Irish.

From what I've been reading only about 3% of secondary school population are in Irish medium schools. In all honesty even if you are a A1 student in Irish is a standard secondary school (97% of students are in english speaking schools) you are not going to do exams in Irish. Why would you. All your notes/classes for the subject are in english. You can hardly ask your teacher to mark your sample history essays in Irish when he/she doesn't even have the competency in Irish to do so.

You basically would add a huge amount of work to your task. The expenditure of which would be worth a lot more then a possibility of an extra 10%. Given that our system is so centred on rote learning/reguritating on the day you end up having to. 1. Translate all of the content yourself 2. Learn it off -- it's just not feasible for a student not in a Gaelcholáiste.

The most important point made in this regard was by dubhthach. There is very little in the way of study material for other subjects through Irish, so it is possible that there are many who are comfortable with the language, but feel unprepared for exams in it. I see this often in physics, where students will often sit advanced subjects (e.g. quantum field theory) in English, since most of the text books are in that language.

It's interesting to note that this 1.73%, if we assume it is somewhat consistent and can be applied to the general population, gives 77,850. This is close to the 72,000 who claim to use the language daily (outside education) on census returns.

I think if there was more equal oppurtunity regarding access to secondary education through Irish there would be more people taking other subject through Irish. Going by figures there is currently about 30,000 children in Gaelscoileanna which on a 8year primary cycle works out on average of 3,750 kids in 6th class (Rang a sé). However there are only currently about
7,500 kids in Gaelcholáiste.

On a 5year secondary cycle thats: 1,500 per year
On a 6year secondary cycle thats: 1,250 per year

In other words there's only about a third of the number of places in 1st year in Gaelcholáiste for the graduates of Gaelscoileanna. Even if you've spent your entire primary school in a Gaelscoil if you go to an english speaking secondary you are going to do exams in English for reasons I outline at start of post. Heck the 5/6years that you are in a English speaking secondary school you'll end up with worse Irish coming out then you had going in! (that was my personal experience)

==Edit==
My numbers are based purely on schools in the Galltacht (non-Gaeltacht)

deise go deo

So Only 1.7% of the LC population take the test through Irish.
However the more relevant figure is roughly 50% of those who feasibly could take the test through Irish do. I say feasibly because it is unfeasible for some one to take a test through Irish for a subject they studied through English.

Lack of support resources(grinds, Books like Less Stress etc), and English being the language They are more comfortable with for a major exam could account for Only Half taking the test through Irish.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Lack of support resources(grinds, Books like Less Stress etc), and English being the language They are more comfortable with for a major exam could account for Only Half taking the test through Irish.

So, should we pass a law requiring all school texts to be in Irish and send up a quango for Irish-language grinds?

Focalbhach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

So, should we pass a law requiring all school texts to be in Irish and send up a quango for Irish-language grinds?

What an interesting idea. Since you're the only person to suggest it, have another wee think and flesh it out, then you can take it to the Minister. We could call it 'Cyclopath's Law'.

Focalbhach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

So, should we pass a law requiring all school texts to be in Irish and send up a quango for Irish-language grinds?

More seriously, I'll reiterate what I said a page or so back:

Leto wrote: »

Disregarding the range of positions people occupy along the spectrum of opinion on this topic and subsequent interpretations arising, it would be nice if the discussion could progress in good faith.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

So, should we pass a law requiring all school texts to be in Irish and send up a quango for Irish-language grinds?

No need to be so confrontational. I dident suggest that did I?
If Irish is reformed in Schools and Gaeilscoileanna given the support they need then Irish will grow as a language and these services will exist due to demand.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

If Irish is reformed in Schools and Gaeilscoileanna given the support they need then Irish will grow as a language and these services will exist due to demand.

Some form of Irish speaking might grow, but what you've stated above will not remedy the decline of Irish-speaking as a daily, primary language, among native speakers.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Some form of Irish speaking might grow, but what you've stated above will not remedy the decline of Irish-speaking as a daily, primary language, among native speakers.

The Gaeilscoil movement is facilating the creation of new native speakers. No worries there. Irish wont survive if it is left in the Gaelthachts only.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

The Gaeilscoil movement is facilating the creation of new native speakers.

Would these be virtual Irish-speakers?

deise go deo wrote: »

Irish wont survive if it is left in the Gaelthachts only.

What an irony.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Would these be virtual Irish-speakers?

On the Internet? What do you mean? They would be Native Irish speakers.
I am talking about people who leave Gaeilscoileanna fluent in Irish and go on to raise their children through the language, making their children Native speakers, understand?

What an irony.

What is so Ironic? Irish will not survive in the Gaelthachts alone. The Gaelthachts are important to efforts for revival but they are not the only factor.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

I am talking about people who leave Gaeilscoileanna fluent in Irish and go on to raise their children through the language, making their children Native speakers, understand?

I see what your aspiration is, but are there any reliable statistics or metrics to demonstrate that this is happening? For example, Irish-langauge census forms completed? Irish-langauge Daily newspapers, 100% supported by their readers?

deise go deo wrote: »

What is so Ironic? Irish will not survive in the Gaelthachts alone. The Gaelthachts are important to efforts for revival but they are not the only factor.

If the idea is to preserve Irish culture, then the fate of native Irish-speaking in the Gaelthachts should be central.

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I see what your aspiration is, but are there any reliable statistics or metrics to demonstrate that this is happening? For example, Irish-langauge census forms completed? Irish-langauge Daily newspapers, 100% supported by their readers?

You are like a broken record repeating the same thing over and over again.
Obsession is a very unhealthy thing.
You should try out something a lot of people do. Ignore thing you don't like, instead of going on and on ad infinitum about it.
You have brought up what you said above numerous times and have had numerous replies, to get an answer all you have to do is re-read the thread.

AlexderFranke

De réir Gaeldhaltaí: Bhuail mé féin le sean-Ghaeldhaltaí sa chlub Chonradh na Gaeilge agus iad ag caint as Gaeilge amháin le a chéile. Is é Club Chonradh na Gaeilge, go háirithe i mBÁC, áit a bhaileann sean-Ghaeldhaltaí le a chéile go minic. Is dóigh liom gurb í an Ghaelscolaíocht an nasc speisialta eatarthu. Ní dóigh go bhanfaidh an nasc leis an nGaeilge acu uilig, ach seo é comhartha go n-oibríonn an Ghaelscolaíocht go maith i gcuid cásanna.

Referring to Gaelpupils: I have myself met with ancient Gaelpupils in the Club of the Gaelic League while they were chatting to each other in Irish only. The Club of the Gaelic League, especially in Dublin, is a place where ancient Gaelpupils often meet together. I think that the Gaelschooling is the special link between them. The special link to the Irish language probably does not remain in all cases, but this is a sign that Gaelschooling does work well in some cases.