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Is Irish a dead language?
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cyclopath2001 wrote: »That was before the strategy announced that the OLA would be enforced in full. It also does not include the cost of compulsory Irish lessons for English-speaking children.
Indeed, but it was a different and much more expensive time, Civil Servants pay has been cut since then. That said, you are right, but even so, It is still a comparatively minor expense.
Irish in schools has nothing to do with service provision for Irish speakers, That is a different topic not relevant to a point on service provision.You've had 80 years of state support, maybe it's time to re-examine the market for your product?
No, there is a strong market for the 'product', Its the delivery system that need sorting out.That's what it says on their website.
So are you going to answer the point I made or just pull a sentence out of context and argue against that?You're idea of bilingualism seems to be restricted to Irish and English.
Not at all, please answer the point i was making instead of sniping at out of context parts of it.
I don't see any other Bi-lingual Communities or Immersion education in other languages growing like Irish is, so surely Irish is the obvious choice as there is actually demand for it.It's common sense that people socialise with others who speak the same language.
No, I asked if there was any evidence to support your notion that Ethnicity can be solely based on language and can change only on the basis of language in the space of a few generations within a culturally close community with close family links.If you think that langauge makes no difference to ethnicity, then why make people learn Irish?
Why are you resorting to so many strawman arguments?:rolleyes:
I did not claim language makes no difference to Ethnicity, It is a factor, But it is just that, a factor, not the only criteria. Irish speakers from the Gaelthacht are not an ethnically distinct group to Non Irish speakers from the rest of the Country. To suggest they are with no evidence other than your opinion based solely on Language, when all other factors clearly do not support the notion of an ethnic divide, is laughable,Only unnecessary services such as Irish langauge options for English speakers and forcibly teaching people a language they will never use.
Oh so its OK to provide them for Irish speakers then, Ie people who use Irish as the language of their Daily lives?
Again you claim to see the future, How do you know people 'will never use Irish'? That is ridiculus:rolleyes:I find it incredible that someone with such juvenile spelling could be admitted to university.
I find it incredible that You can take your self seriously when you have to resort to ad hominum.:rolleyes:The Luas runs on time. The Irish project is decades years late.
:rolleyes:
Its never too late to learn a new language.Because Irish is consuming disproportionate resources and the money spent is not delivering real value for the economy.
In whos opinion? Yours obviously, but forgive me for not basing language policy on just that.Everyone supports mom and apple pie.
:rolleyes:
There is no mandate for your proposals. Nor will there ever be.So, anyone who does not agree with spending huge sums of money on Irish is anti-Irish?
Yet another strawman argument.(are you going for some kind of record?)
No, I didn't say that, People often don't support a particular aspect of a given thing, be it that they feel funding is could have a better effect elsewhere or disagree with a certain method or aim,
There are aspects of the Irish language where I feel like that myself, An Scéim labhairt an Gaeilge in the Gaelthachts for example, it is entirely normal and natural that people will have some disagreement or not support an aspect of support for the Irish language. This dosent mean that they are in any way anti-Irish, they just have their own opinions on the Issue.
Those are not the people I was referencing, I am talking about people who cannot abide the Irish language in any shape or form, People who will see the absolute worst in anything to do with the Irish language despite not even being well informed on the aspect they are attempting to discredit, People who are prejudiced against the language.
There is a group of people that are clearly anti-Irish, Not because they dont agree with spending endless money on Irish, But because they would seek to do every possible damage to the standing of the language without need or couse. And who will make every kind of irrational argument and keep making them no matter how many times the logical flaws and often sheer inaccuracy of them is pointed out, These people are Gaeilgephobes, They are a very small group of people, that is why they never back up their arguments with evidence of support, there isent any, they will never campaign for their views to be carried out because they would be laughed off their soap box, and deep down they know it.0 -
Irish as a languarge is in the same position as Latin. It is a cultural and intellectual medium. Practically everyone adult speaks who Irish is also fluent in English. Irish is never going to be the ordinary working language of any more than a small minority of people. Virtually everybody has to work in English at least some of the time, whether they like it or not. In fact this is true not just of Ireland, but many other countries. English is now widely taught as a second language in China because so much international trade is carried out through English.
If a language was truly living, it would not need endless plans, schemes and strategys backed up with legal pressure to have it used and to increase the spread of it.0 -
Irish as a languarge is in the same position as Latin. It is a cultural and intellectual medium. Practically everyone adult speaks who Irish is also fluent in English. Irish is never going to be the ordinary working language of any more than a small minority of people. Virtually everybody has to work in English at least some of the time, whether they like it or not. In fact this is true not just of Ireland, but many other countries. English is now widely taught as a second language in China because so much international trade is carried out through English.
If a language was truly living, it would not need endless plans, schemes and strategys backed up with legal pressure to have it used and to increase the spread of it.
The comparrision with Latin is not valid, There are no native speakers of Latin, it is limited to acedimic and religious circles, It is not used as a daily language by any community, Irish on the other hand has tens of thousands of daily speakers and is the community language of several areas.
Its true that everyone has to use English sometimes, but the OLA is about recognising thet people should not be forced by the state to carry out their official business in English.
There are thousands of Living languages with fewer speakers than Irish, Some people like to make up their own difinition of what a living language is, but by the true definition, Irish is a living language.
There are also languages that have more speakers than Irish which are at greater risk of dying than Irish.
Irish is in a relativly healthy position by comparrision to many world languages, and as a result is growing.0 -
deise go deo wrote: »
For those that think Irish will die without Government Support, just look north, Irish gets only minimal (and begrudging even at that) support from the Government up there, yet it is still growing.
Almost as if that is the reason it is still growing.0 -
If people want to study Irish which is a dead ancient language then they should do so at their own expense.
Taxpayers should not be forking out millions so that the trendy middle class can force their kids to learn Irish.
Even in west Donegal and west Galway ordinary people only speak Irish(very poorly) to avail of grants.
Peig Sayers was forced on me at school and I have had any reason to use or speak Irish after the leaving cert.
The money wasted teaching Irish could be used to teach more useful languages like Mandarin(China) or Portuguese(Brazil).0 -
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Would these be 'straw-men' or can you point to publications or websites where we can learn more about them?deise go deo wrote: »There is a group of people that are clearly anti-Irish0 -
Can anyone answer these four questions for me?
* Number of primary school classes in Country
* Number of secondary school classes in Country
* Average hourly Primary school teacher wage
* Average hourly Secondary school teacher wage
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At the moment the primary school curriculum calls for 3.5 hours of Irish tuition a week (Department of Education and Science, 1999b: 17). In an English speaking primary school this results in about 936 hours of Irish tuition/language contact over 8 years of primary school education.
According to Dept of Education/Science back in 2002 about 452 hours are spent on Irish in Secondary schools.
Total of: 1,388 hours over course of Primary/Secondary
In comparison:1977, the Ontario Ministry of Education in Canada set down three basic levels of competence which may be achieved from second language programmes (Swain, 1981: 490). The ‘basic’ level of competence is considered to be achievable in 1,200 hours, a ‘middle’ level in 2,100 hours and a ‘top’ level in 5,000 hours.
A ‘basic’ level indicates that a learner has acquired “a fundamental knowledge of the language, the ability to participate in simple conversations, the ability to read simple texts and the ability to resume the study of French in later life”.
A learner who has reached the ‘middle’ level should be able “to read newspapers and books of personal interest with help from a dictionary, to
understand radio and television, to participate adequately in conversation and to function reasonably well in a French-speaking community after a few months’ residence”.
The ‘top’ level, should enable the learner to “continue his or her education using French as the language of instruction at the college or university level, to accept employment using French as the working language, and to participate easily in conversation”.
If you as a student attend a Gaelscoil + Gaelcholáiste you end up with approx of 10,700 hours of Irish language contact which is nearly 8x the time spent in english speaking schools.
Even if Irish wasn't available in secondary school and you did another language the time thus available would only get you about 1/3 of way to the Basic level as defined in Canada. For example I did French in secondary school. I spent much the same on French as Irish and let I can't string two words together. The issue really is the method of language teaching in this country. This affects all languages be they Irish or French or any other language. Also the fact that the system is built around a "points race" doesn't help.0 -
Certainly there could be a problem with how languages (or any other subjects for that matter) are taught, but in the case of Irish which is compulsory, there is also the matter of whether or not the students want to learn it.The issue really is the method of language teaching in this country. This affects all languages be they Irish or French or any other language. Also the fact that the system is built around a "points race" doesn't help.0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »Certainly there could be a problem with how languages (or any other subjects for that matter) are taught, but in the case of Irish which is compulsory, there is also the matter of whether or not the students want to learn it.
To be honest do students want to do most subjects? Most students hate school. If it was down to Students you would probably find no one doing Maths or English or French. They'd just do the subjects they feel they could get highest points in it.
As for compulsion, French is for all intent compulsory in most schools. There was no other option in my secondary school for a continental language and you have to have one to matriculate to university (even if it's a D3 in pass)0 -
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If people want to study Irish which is a dead ancient language then they should do so at their own expense.
Taxpayers should not be forking out millions so that the trendy middle class can force their kids to learn Irish.
Even in west Donegal and west Galway ordinary people only speak Irish(very poorly) to avail of grants.
Peig Sayers was forced on me at school and I have had any reason to use or speak Irish after the leaving cert.
The money wasted teaching Irish could be used to teach more useful languages like Mandarin(China) or Portuguese(Brazil).
Do you speak irish, what are your quailifications to make them allegations0 -
Cú Giobach wrote: »Wow! You really don't know what you are talking about do you.
I lived in the Donegal Gaeltacht and Irish was not spoken on a regular basis by most people.
I had better Irish language speaking ability than quite a few of the local under 30's.
It's a money making scam.
.Do you speak irish, what are your quailifications to make them allegations
Since when do you need qualifications to state the obvious????????
I have the same level of Irish speaking ability as anyone else that was forced to learn it for 13 years at school.
If people were given the choice of learning Irish or another language which option do you think they would go for.
The Irish language is as dead as fianna fail.0 -
As I said, you don't know what you are talking about.I lived in the Donegal Gaeltacht and Irish was not spoken on a regular basis by most people.
I had better Irish language speaking ability than quite a few of the local under 30's.
It's a money making scam.
There are 10's of thousands of native Irish speakers who have Irish as their first language, the majority of whom live in Conemara, Donegal and west Kerry, just because you didn't (for what ever reason) meet them, doesn't mean they don't exist. :rolleyes:
Unlike some animals we as humans have the ability to know of and understand the existence of something without seeing it with our own eyes, except for very young children of course.0 -
Cú Giobach wrote: »As I said, you don't know what you are talking about.
just because you didn't (for what ever reason) meet them, doesn't mean they don't exist. :rolleyes:
Unlike some animals we as humans have the ability to know of and understand the existence of something without seeing it with our own eyes, except for very young children of course.
Santa, the tooth fairy, the Yeti.
you missed my point, I lived in the Donegal gaeltacht and English was the language the locals used to communicate.
many people claim to be native speakers but how many people speak Irish on a daily basis.0 -
Somewhere around 20-30 thousand native speakers and 10's of thousands more use it as their main method of communication.Santa, the tooth fairy, the Yeti.
you missed my point, I lived in the Donegal gaeltacht and English was the language the locals used to communicate.
many people claim to be native speakers but how many people speak Irish on a daily basis.
The language is not dead and because children are still being brought up with it as their first language, it is not going to die anytime soon.
I've spent time in the Connemara and Kerry Gaeltachts and because I have heard people from every generation chatting in Irish and met a large number of people who were willing and able to speak to me as Gaeilge my anecdotal evidence counteracts yours.0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »Would these be 'straw-men' or can you point to publications or websites where we can learn more about them?
Cyclopath I find it interesting that you want to learn more about them whan you would be a text book case. The only website I have come accross would be the Reform website, though here are doubt less some blogs around as well. Of course Unionists would fall into this catogory in General(Though not always) But at least they have their reasons.0 -
That's an ignorant statement.deise go deo wrote: »Cyclopath I find it interesting that you want to learn more about them whan you would be a text book case.
Can you quote something from that site which supports the stereotypical 'anti-Gaelic' straw man you're attacking?deise go deo wrote: »The only website I have come accross would be the Reform0 -
Have you uttered anything positive about English?deise go deo wrote: »Over several threads and by now at least 400 posts on the subject of the Irish language, I have never once seen you make a positive comment about the language.
I want to see Irish freed from the living death of official support, nurtured by native speakers, spoken as part of an authentic Gaelic way of life and cherished by those who wish to speak it. You want to destroy the language by foisting a synthetic version of Irish on an unwilling public, consuming vast and unnecessary sums of money in the process.deise go deo wrote: »Over you have remained true to the central theme that Irish is something to be closer to the cliff of language death at every opportunity0 -
"part of an authentic Gaelic way of life" what an absolutely pathetic comment.cyclopath2001 wrote: »I want to see Irish freed from the living death of official support, nurtured by native speakers, spoken as part of an authentic Gaelic way of life and cherished by those who wish to speak it.
What does this mean? What kind of mindset comes up with a comment like this?
What does a comment like this tell about someones attitude towards people who's only difference to them is that they speak a different language?
You consider Irish speakers ethnically different and illogical, I personally consider these statements as bigotry, I am not calling you a bigot (because I would get another warning), but by coming out with comments like this you let yourself down badly and show the real reason for your attitude towards the Irish language and it has nothing to do with money.
"part of an authentic Gaelic way of life", pathetic.0 -
do not know if this helps,the number of irish speakers in ireland, is 64,265.used daily 17,687. aged between 15-24 1,827. aged over 65+3,707.the word flogging a dead horse comes to mind0
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It is very strange that you do not know what this is.Cú Giobach wrote: »"part of an authentic Gaelic way of life" ....What does this mean?.0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »Have you uttered anything positive about English?
I have said several times that I do not want to see English replaced, I have nothing against the English language, It is very useful and to get rid of it would be a shockingly stupid thing to do. I have never suggested even once that Irish should grow at the expense of English.I want to see Irish freed from the living death of official support, nurtured by native speakers, spoken as part of an authentic Gaelic way of life and cherished by those who wish to speak it. You want to destroy the language by foisting a synthetic version of Irish on an unwilling public, consuming vast and unnecessary sums of money in the process.
I have to agree with Cú Giobach here, I think its rather ironic that its you that has come out with ridiculous Develeraian nonsense.
State services and modern media provided through Irish is as much a part of 'The authentic gaelic way of life' as services through English are to the 'way of life' of English speakers.0 -
Yet, you insist that English-speaking taxpayers should provide massive subsidies to Irish?deise go deo wrote: »I have never suggested even once that Irish should grow at the expense of English.
You're not a member of CnaG and you repudiate de Valera's 'nonsense'. Do you have your own personal vision for Ireland? A kind of 'A la Carte' Gaelic revival with your favourite bits in it?deise go deo wrote: »I have to agree with Cú Giobach here, I think its rather ironic that its you that has come out with ridiculous Develeraian nonsense.
Ah yes, Bruce Willis in Die Hard 4 in English on TG4deise go deo wrote: »State services and modern media provided through Irish is as much a part of 'The authentic gaelic way of life' as services through English are to the 'way of life' of English speakers.0 -
The only thing that stands in the way of Gaeilge being improved in this country is the attitude of middle class Gaeilgóirs and those from Gaeltacht areas. I have no sympathy for it dying the death that it is. I believe its a brilliant language and there are so much opportunities to improve its popularity amongst the population. The anti-English bias from Gaelgoirs, the arrogance of their idioms which they use to take a high ground over those who learn in classrooms outside of their precious Gaeltacht or from Gaelgoirs, as well as their uncanny ability to strangle a language they so wish to keep alive, if only they can speak it and nobody else. Sorry, the majority of sane people in Ireland don't need to be wieghed down by such insular and backward thinking.0
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groggles11 wrote: »The only thing that stands in the way of Gaeilge being improved in this country is the attitude of middle class Gaeilgóirs and those from Gaeltacht areas. I have no sympathy for it dying the death that it is. I believe its a brilliant language and there are so much opportunities to improve its popularity amongst the population. The anti-English bias from Gaelgoirs, the arrogance of their idioms which they use to take a high ground over those who learn in classrooms outside of their precious Gaeltacht or from Gaelgoirs, as well as their uncanny ability to strangle a language they so wish to keep alive, if only they can speak it and nobody else. Sorry, the majority of sane people in Ireland don't need to be wieghed down by such insular and backward thinking.
Its not dying, that much is obvious to anyone who bothers to look into it.
What would you do, given the opportunity what would you do differently?
As for these middle class gaelgoirs you speak of, Gaelthachts are economicly disadvantaged places, Gaelscoileanna tend to be in working class areas, most Irish speakers I know are working class, I am.
Its true that people in the middle class are quite positive twords the language and that former third level students are the most positive twords it, but thats a good thing.
What exactly is insular or backward thinking about the Irish language?0 -
One cannot say if a language is good or bad. What matters is the reasons native English speakers have for deciding to switch to Irish. These reasons could be good or bad..deise go deo wrote: »What exactly is insular or backward thinking about the Irish language?0 -
deise go deo wrote: »Its not dying, that much is obvious to anyone who bothers to look into it.
What would you do, given the opportunity what would you do differently?
As for these middle class gaelgoirs you speak of, Gaelthachts are economicly disadvantaged places, Gaelscoileanna tend to be in working class areas, most Irish speakers I know are working class, I am.
Its true that people in the middle class are quite positive twords the language and that former third level students are the most positive twords it, but thats a good thing.
What exactly is insular or backward thinking about the Irish language?
To be fair, most Gaelscoils aren't in working class areas nor are Irish speakers working class. You are aware of what working class means surely?
Personally I think the language needs an overhaul from the way its taught to the general attitude towards it. But I really don't care much for the language and I can speak the thing! Although if I'm realistic I don't think much can be done to improve it broadly in Ireland. A select minority will still persevere with it whilst us majority get on with our lives happy and content and free of any chips on our shoulders.
I wasn't making the connotations that Galetacht areas were middle class either sorry if that appeared to be the case!0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »One cannot say if a language is good or bad. What matters is the reasons native English speakers have for deciding to switch to Irish. These reasons could be good or bad..
I think its insular for Gaeltacht snobbery to those who come to the area to speak the language, its insular and backward because many Gaelgóirs mock and look down their nose at those who don't use idiomatic Irish but rather Irish learnt from a book, its insular and backward because Gaelgoirs and Galetacht people have an apparent mistrust and seeming hatred to things such as football or anything else associated with England or Great Britain. These are just a few little things I've come up with off the top of my head.0 -
groggles11 wrote: »I think its insular for Gaeltacht snobbery to those who come to the area to speak the language,
That has never been my experience, I am a learner who has gone to the gaelthacht to speak Irish many times, I have never once encountered any snobbery.Gaelgóirs mock and look down their nose at those who don't use idiomatic Irish but rather Irish learnt from a book,
I am a Learner of Irish and have been in the gaelthacht several times, I have never come across this. Nor has any other learner mentioned this to me. The only thing I can think of is the dislike of many towards what is known as 'Béarlachs' that is the direct translation of a phrase from English into Irish that is meaningless in Irish. Phrases like 'Oh mo Dhia' (OMG) But you wont learn these phrases in any book. They are not Irish, They are just a collection of words that mean something in a different language.
This dislaike is not to be confused with a dislike of new phrases coming into the language, There are many such new phrases, but they actually make sense in Irish, its just a dislike of nonsense.its insular and backward because Gaelgoirs and Galetacht people have an apparent mistrust and seeming hatred to things such as football or anything else associated with England or Great Britain.
Nonsense. Wher did you come across this? I know that if I were to walk into a pub in the gaelthacht wearing a Liverpool Jersay(For example) I would not face mistrust or haterd, Just get a ribbing from the Man U supporters in the pub(as gaeilge).These are just a few little things I've come up with off the top of my head.
Yes it seams you have just come up with them, because I doubt you ever experienced it first hand.0 -
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deise go deo wrote: »The comparrision with Latin is not valid, There are no native speakers of Latin, it is limited to acedimic and religious circles, It is not used as a daily language by any community, Irish on the other hand has tens of thousands of daily speakers and is the community language of several areas.
Its true that everyone has to use English sometimes, but the OLA is about recognising thet people should not be forced by the state to carry out their official business in English.
There are thousands of Living languages with fewer speakers than Irish, Some people like to make up their own difinition of what a living language is, but by the true definition, Irish is a living language.
There are also languages that have more speakers than Irish which are at greater risk of dying than Irish.
Irish is in a relativly healthy position by comparrision to many world languages, and as a result is growing.
There are a few thousand native speakers. About as many as the population of a good sized Irish town. The OLA is an attempt to boost artificially the use of the language. Most public servants can't work in Irish, jury trials cqnnot be heard in Irish, The Supreme Court cannot put a quorum of three together from within its numbers to hear a case in Irish. Minority languages are being subsumed by their neighbours in the era of greater communication. People made a change around the turn of the 20th century towards English with native speakers bringing up their families through English. It is unstoppable. Better policies in the past migh have helped but the reality is Irish is an intellectual curiosity.0
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