Is Irish a dead language?

Static Jak

deise go deo wrote: »

It is actually quite popular

Well then if that's the truth, it'll have no problem being an optional choice due to it's supposed popularity.

deise go deo wrote: »

As for its usefullness, There are many jobs available that require Irish, And the list is growing.

What jobs need the Irish language that can't be done in English.

deise go deo

Static Jak wrote: »

Well then if that's the truth, it'll have no problem being an optional choice due to it's supposed popularity.

Languages were made optional in England several years ago, It was a disaster, They are looking into making them compulsory again.

What jobs need the Irish language that can't be done in English.

Teacher in a Naíscoil/Gaelscoil/Gaelcholaiste.
Raidio Presenter on Raidió na Gaelthachta/Raidió na Lifé/Raidio RíRá/Raidió Fáilte
Writer for Gaelsceal/Foinse
Actor/employee with TG4
People working in the Gaelthachts
Translator
Employee of Foras na Gaeilge
Employee of Conradh Na Gaeilge(And several other Irish language Organisations)
Lecturer for an Irish course in several Universitys around the country.


To name but a few.

(you may claim that those jobs can be done through English but in reality they can't.)

Static Jak

deise go deo wrote: »

Languages were made optional in England several years ago, It was a disaster, They are looking into making them compulsory again.

So wait a second. You think the Irish language is very popular. Yet you think making it optional would be a disaster. Do you not see the problem with that.

deise go deo wrote: »

Teacher in a Naíscoil/Gaelscoil/Gaelcholaiste.
Raidio Presenter on Raidió na Gaelthachta/Raidió na Lifé/Raidio RíRá/Raidió Fáilte
Writer for Gaelsceal/Foinse
Actor/employee with TG4
People working in the Gaelthachts
Translator
Employee of Foras na Gaeilge
Employee of Conradh Na Gaeilge(And several other Irish language Organisations)
Lecturer for an Irish course in several Universitys around the country.


To name but a few.

(you may claim that those jobs can be done through English but in reality they can't.)

See the problem with most if not all of these is that it's Irish for the sake of Irish.

deise go deo

Static Jak wrote: »

So wait a second. You think the Irish language is very popular. Yet you think making it optional would be a disaster. Do you not see the problem with that.

Not really, Think about it, Irish has 8.5 hours worth of exams at the end of it. What sane student would choose that over say Geography with only 2?

See the problem with most if not all of these is that it's Irish for the sake of Irish.

Actually most of them are based on demand. There is massive demand for Gaelscoileanna/Gaelcholaiste, Actually Demand for them well exceeds supply, but if you want to see providing services that there is demand for as just doing it for the sake of it then go ahead.

Static Jak

deise go deo wrote: »

Not really, Think about it, Irish has 8.5 hours worth of exams at the end of it. What sane student would choose that over say Geography with only 2?

So you're saying students wouldn't want to spend any more time than necessary on Irish subjects than other subjects? So, say how long is other language exams out of curiosity?

deise go deo wrote: »

Actually most of them are based on demand.

Not the point at all. As I stated there isn't any real use outside of general pride for the language/culture.
Your examples of work that needs Irish is essentially jobs teaching Irish or translating Irish. It's one big circle and fits into what I said.

I'm sorry to tell you this, but the language is always going to come second at best. I know you would like the idea that we'd all speak it but forcing down kids throats will only cause more damage than good.

I must know a good few who went to Gaelscoils and every one of them where pushed into it by parents. One being my Cousins girlfriend. And she can't speak a lick of Irish now. Because she had absolutely no interest or use for it.
The likes of French or German or Italian or whatever are fully live languages that have value beyond tradition. Lets have the people decide what they value, not dictate it.

dubhthach

Generally I find alot of Europeans are more interested in practising their english with you then listening to you murder their language in a work context.

Dr. Baltar

Agree with Satic Jak - why are we forced to learn Irish?
I see the necessity to learn English as we use it everyday.
(I do not see why Leaving Cert Math is compulsory if you're doing an arts degree for example).

But Irish is rarely used in everyday life for the majority of people I would say.
I'm not anti-Irish (in fact I would love to start learning again out of pride) but I do honestly think it should be a choice. It's not right to force people to learn something that is unnecessary.

Jo King

deise go deo wrote: »

I am not arguing about the jury, Anyone can choose to use Irish in court if they want to and have the right to a service as good as the service they would get if they chose English. The court system has to facilate them and their language choice.

As for the point about lawyers, Dlí agus Gaeilge UCC

ALPI

How can you get as good a service if you have a jury who speak a different language to the one you are using? How can you get as good a service when the judges cannot speak your language? The right is illusory. There is no way of availing of it in reality. Virtually all of the law reports and the vast majority of legal text books are written in English. The vast majority of academic articles are written in English. It would be impossible to run any kind of a case in the Superior Courts without resort to English language materials.
Just because some university runs a course does not meant the courts are full of Irish. There are courses in law & German and law and French running in Trinity and have done for years.

Krusader

Asked to be exempt if you don't want to learn it

cancercowboy

I think the the Irish language is very important to our identity and culture. However, I think the way it's being taught is wrong anf I think forcing children to learn it is also wrong. I think if you make irish elective and optional the students who want to learn it and speak it will do so. Then the language can thrive because the people who want to speak it will.

Corsendonk

I think it should be an option in secondary school.

The Irish language election debate is interesting. I haven't a word of Irish so of the three leaders Gilmore, Martin and Kenny who speaks the better Irish and who is liable to trip themselves up when speaking it?

deise go deo

Jo King wrote: »

How can you get as good a service if you have a jury who speak a different language to the one you are using? How can you get as good a service when the judges cannot speak your language? The right is illusory. There is no way of availing of it in reality. Virtually all of the law reports and the vast majority of legal text books are written in English. The vast majority of academic articles are written in English. It would be impossible to run any kind of a case in the Superior Courts without resort to English language materials.
Just because some university runs a course does not meant the courts are full of Irish. There are courses in law & German and law and French running in Trinity and have done for years.

That is unimportant, The defendant dose not need to speak directally to the judge or to the jurey to be tried. The lawyer dose, but they can speak English too. The lawyer can conduct their business with the defendant in Irish.
The law dosent stipulate that the entire case has to be done in Irish only, It says that the defendant can use Irish in the Court and has to be accomodated in doing so.

bath handle

deise go deo wrote: »

That is unimportant, The defendant dose not need to speak directally to the judge or to the jurey to be tried. The lawyer dose, but they can speak English too. The lawyer can conduct their business with the defendant in Irish.
The law dosent stipulate that the entire case has to be done in Irish only, It says that the defendant can use Irish in the Court and has to be accomodated in doing so.

If the defendant goes into evidence the jury will hear him in Irish. A translator will have to tell the jury in English what has been said. The same goes for the defendants replies in cross examination.since the jury have to decide if the defendant is telling the truth using Irish is likely to put an innocent defendant at a disadvantage. Aside from the restricted pool of lawyers who can conduct the case in Irish and the trouble In finding a judgethe trial will take considerably longer. Any defendant doing it would be very ill advised. No way can it be said there is a genuine choice. Most of the business of the trial will inevitably be conducted in English what.

RandomName2

deise go deo wrote: »

Teacher in a Naíscoil/Gaelscoil/Gaelcholaiste.
Raidio Presenter on Raidió na Gaelthachta/Raidió na Lifé/Raidio RíRá/Raidió Fáilte
Writer for Gaelsceal/Foinse
Actor/employee with TG4
People working in the Gaelthachts
Translator
Employee of Foras na Gaeilge
Employee of Conradh Na Gaeilge(And several other Irish language Organisations)
Lecturer for an Irish course in several Universitys around the country.


(you may claim that those jobs can be done through English but in reality they can't.)

No, personally I would claim that there isn't a job using Gaeilge (possibly on the entire planet) that isn't designed solely for the teaching or promotion of the language, and in some way (and, usually, entirely) publicly funded.

And I would include the translation of it as a job designed purely for the promotion of the language, as said legal translations are not used, or if used, are done so purely for the purposes of political publicity.

This is not merely to ballyrag the industry. Merely to highlight that there IS NO industry.

We teach chemistry so people may become chemists.
Do we teach Irish so that people become Irishists?
English is the medium of our economy, and the most suitable candidate as a lingua franca.

SIX PACK

Yea its a waste of time language bit like Welsh & we ddont have the money anymore to revive it

RandomName2

SIX PACK wrote: »

Yea its a waste of time language bit like Welsh & we ddont have the money anymore to revive it

It's not dead! It's actually alive! It just so happens that it being alive happens to cost us >1billion euro annually. But hey! For that investment we get...

a bill of over a billion euro...

omg a kitty

its not dead, just useless
but im being forced to learn it, and its a really confusing language, im sick of it :mad:

Jo King

deise go deo wrote: »

That is unimportant, The defendant dose not need to speak directally to the judge or to the jurey to be tried. The lawyer dose, but they can speak English too. The lawyer can conduct their business with the defendant in Irish.
The law dosent stipulate that the entire case has to be done in Irish only, It says that the defendant can use Irish in the Court and has to be accomodated in doing so.

I have looked at the bar council website at www.lawlibrary.ie
Of the Senior Counsels who describe themselves as fluent in Irish or Gaeilge, 9 or but 10 out of about 300 i.e under 5%, only 1 practises in the area of criminal law. Saying that a person can carry out business in Irish in the courts to the same extent as can be done in English is an absolute joke.

alrightcuz

"To know nothing of what happened before you were born is to remain forever a child." – Cicero

The Irish Language

Conflict has existed between Ireland and England for centuries, with the English having a presence on the island at least since 1171, when King Henry II invaded. In spite of this, the two languages spoken by the English and Irish existed side by side, with many of the English living in Ireland learning the native language. This is understandable, since the same scenario has been repeated over and over again around the world. Whenever two or more language groups exist side by side, it is common for the minority to learn the language of the majority. However in Ireland, a change was to come. In an attempt to enforce complete subjugation, the English passed laws to suppress the native Irish language. First, the authorities had to deal with their own people.

In 1366, the English government passed a series of laws (the Statutes of Kilkenny) to stop the Anglo-Irish from becoming totally absorbed in the Gaelic culture: all Englishmen were forbidden to wear Irish costumes, speak the native tongue and intermarry. It required that all Englishmen in Ireland retain their English surnames and continue to speak English & Teaching of Irish was forbidden by the English and was done so in an effort to force the Irish to follow British rule and law.. After this, various attempts were made to suppress the use of the language by the native Irish. At first these met with little success; when Irish Catholics were forbidden to teach school, illegal schools were opened. Eventually though, the Irish could read the handwriting on the wall. In order to prosper in business or politics, you had to speak English.

The Irish language increasingly became associated with poverty and backwardness. In the National School system that was established in 1831, children were beaten with what became known as a 'tally stick' if they were caught speaking Irish. Far from being upset by this, many parents enthusiastically endorsed it, feeling that the future of their children depended on their ability to speak English. Because of this, Ireland experienced a steady decline in native Irish speakers. It has been estimated that there were five million people living in Ireland at the end of the eighteenth century. Of these, two million were exclusively Irish speakers, one and a half million spoke both Irish and English, and one and a half million spoke English exclusively. A hundred years later, there were only about 600,000 Irish speakers left, with only 3.5% under the age of 10 able to speak the language.

The end of the nineteenth century also saw efforts by scholars to preserve the Irish language. An organization called the Gaelic League was founded in 1893 with the goal of restoring the Irish language. They ran classes throughout the country, teaching people how to read and write their own language. Writers even began to publish in the Irish language.

Today, Irish is continuing its slow comeback in Ireland. Although English is still the main language used in schools, as well as in business, politics, etc., any student attending a school that receives public money is required to study Irish. In addition, more and more Gaelscoileanna (Irish speaking schools) are opening.

So contrary to expectations and in spite of concerted efforts to eradicate it, the Irish language is still around & far from dead
To quote Solzhenitsyn:"To destroy a people you must first sever their roots." The reverse must then also be true, to strengthen a people, you must discover their roots.

dkin

alrightcuz wrote: »

"To know nothing of what happened before you were born is to remain forever a child." – Cicero

To quote Solzhenitsyn:"To destroy a people you must first sever their roots." The reverse must then also be true, to strengthen a people, you must discover their roots.

Why the silly quotations anyone can quote plenty of stuff and apply it to everyday situations and scenarios however it doesn't server any practical aim except trying to raise a bit of fervour by those easily impressed by such things. That's the problem with the modern world everyone is looking for a soundbite particularly an emotionally driven one.

Let's take the first one: "To know nothing of what happened before you were born is to remain a child": This is complete nonsense and can be applied to almost any argument regarding history. For instance I can imagine the neo-nazis use a similar argument when justifying teaching new recuits about the third reich. Just a demonstration of how verstaile these simplistic soundbites can be.

Another one: "To destroy a people you must first sever their roots" What kind of metaphorical nonsense is this? How about my contribution to your quotation reserve

"To retard a people you must tie them to their roots" - dkin 2010

dubhthach

One thing I notice in the History Forum is that most posts are restricted to the last 200years. You rarely see posts in the period before this. If you ask me it's because the Anglicisation of Ireland has helped severed our ties with our more recent history. Heck we probably cover more of Ancient Rome/Greece then we do about Medieval to Early-Modern Ireland.

RandomName2

alrightcuz wrote: »

"To know nothing of what happened before you were born is to remain forever a child." – Cicero

So... so what?

Everyone should know about Irish history, and the history of Irish culture. It does not necessarily mean we should attempt to 'relive' history.

I have always advocated people knowing about Gaeilge, and for it to be a language subject in schools (although certainly not as a compulsory subject for the LC).

I am against seeing its historical value as meriting a 'revival' predicated on lawful compulsion and shed-loads of dead-end expenditure.

Your argument, as you currently present it, makes very little sense. Old Irish was spoken for far longer than modern Irish. Therefore it should take greater precedence than modern Irish. Neither Old Irish nor Middle English are taught at all in schools, let alone being declared official languages of the state.

RandomName2

dubhthach wrote: »

One thing I notice in the History Forum is that most posts are restricted to the last 200years. You rarely see posts in the period before this. If you ask me it's because the Anglicisation of Ireland has helped severed our ties with our more recent history. Heck we probably cover more of Ancient Rome/Greece then we do about Medieval to Early-Modern Ireland.

There's plenty of interesting stuff in Early Modern Ireland (particularly between 1580-1660). Unfortunately Irish history before the sixteenth century seems to be pretty sparse. Although we know some stuff that happened it too disorganised and hap-hazard to form much interest to the lay reader. As for Early Medieval Ireland - JESUS CHRIST it is the most boring thing on earth. Having said that, Bede from across the water wasn't the most scintillating writer ever, either.

deise go deo

RandomName2 wrote: »

No, personally I would claim that there isn't a job using Gaeilge (possibly on the entire planet) that isn't designed solely for the teaching or promotion of the language, and in some way (and, usually, entirely) publicly funded.

Have you ever gone to a gaelthacht? People in entirly privat services (shops etc) need and use Irish every day.

This is not merely to ballyrag the industry. Merely to highlight that there IS NO industry.

Oh come now, If not the Irish language industry, then what category do all the jobs that actually do use Irish go in?

We teach chemistry so people may become chemists.
Do we teach Irish so that people become Irishists?
English is the medium of our economy, and the most suitable candidate as a lingua franca.

Well Irish is a medium, not a job as such, so we train people to be Irish Teachers, Lawyrs, singers, shop keepers etc.

The thing that seams to go over your head is that we dont need a candidate for a lingua franca, We have one, That dosent mean we cant have two languages. Its called bi-linguilism.

Jim236

RandomName2 wrote: »

So... so what?

Everyone should know about Irish history, and the history of Irish culture. It does not necessarily mean we should attempt to 'relive' history.

I have always advocated people knowing about Gaeilge, and for it to be a language subject in schools (although certainly not as a compulsory subject for the LC).

I am against seeing its historical value as meriting a 'revival' predicated on lawful compulsion and shed-loads of dead-end expenditure.

Your argument, as you currently present it, makes very little sense. Old Irish was spoken for far longer than modern Irish. Therefore it should take greater precedence than modern Irish. Neither Old Irish nor Middle English are taught at all in schools, let alone being declared official languages of the state.

Theres a difference between reviving and preserving. The Irish language is not dead and therefore cannot be "revived", so straight away your whole post is nonsense.

And who are you to say English should take precedence over Irish? People on here constantly harp on about being "forced" to learn Irish. What about those who were "forced" to learn English? I'm one of those people and I was denied the opportunity to become fluent in my native language because of the flawed education system we have atm.

If all primary and secondary schools taught every subject (except English) through Irish, we would have a fully bilingual society. Not 1 person on here can produce 1 shred of evidence to show that having Irish medium schools as standard would adversely effect students' level of English. But we can all show proof that it wouldn't. Just look at the bunscoileanna and gaelscoileanna around the country, students are leaving school fully fluent in both Irish and English.

Why the government don't just make this the standard for all schools and give taxpayers a return for their money is beyond me, instead they just continue with the current tokenist system that does nothing for the Irish language and wastes millions of taxpayers money every year.

RandomName2

deise go deo wrote: »

Have you ever gone to a gaelthacht? People in entirly privat services (shops etc) need and use Irish every day.


Oh come now, If not the Irish language industry, then what category do all the jobs that actually do use Irish go in?


Well Irish is a medium, not a job as such, so we train people to be Irish Teachers, Lawyrs, singers, shop keepers etc.

The thing that seams to go over your head is that we dont need a candidate for a lingua franca, We have one, That dosent mean we cant have two languages. Its called bi-linguilism.

Your argument is (quite unfortunately) baseless.

Shop-keepers don't need to use Irish, because anybody in this country who can use Irish can also use English. Ultimately it is a personal option (unless there is an artificial compulsion generated by state law or local boycott). So Irish isn't a skill for this job. Someone being able to speak Irish has not fundamentally led to the creation of a job.

Teachers learn Irish in order to teach Irish. So what?

Lawyers by-in-large do not use Irish. Any use of Irish will again be with people who are perfectly fluent in English.

We train singers for use of Irish? Why not Mandarin or Swahili? It's ART.

I don't see how any of this offsets the billion euro budget, nor will I. As I said above, jobs involving Irish are for the teaching or promotion of the language. Remember when you are talking about the Gaelteachts that they are themselves subsidised.

I would advocate bi-lingualism as long as it is laissez faire.

deise go deo

RandomName2 wrote: »

Your argument is (quite unfortunately) baseless.

Shop-keepers don't need to use Irish, because anybody in this country who can use Irish can also use English. Ultimately it is a personal option (unless there is an artificial mandate generated by state law or local boycott). So Irish isn't a skill for this job. Someone being able to speak Irish has not fundamentally led to the creation of a job.

Speaking Irish is as much a personal option as speaking English in those areas, The population is Bi-lingual.

Teachers learn Irish in order to teach Irish. So what?

Lawyers by-in-large do not use Irish. Any use of Irish will again be with people who are perfectly fluent in English.

Actually there will be more and more lawyrs who can use Irish to a professional standard in the comming years, Both the Irish law society and Kings Inns provide Law courses through Irish.
Irish case law is only in its infancy but is growing every wear, Only last year, a lawyer succeeded in getting all court documents made available in Irish(Precidence is set)

People should(and do) have a choice of which language to use.

We train singers for use of Irish? Why not Mandarin or Swahili? It's ART.

No, People who learn Irish can go on to become Singers, lawyers etc etc.
There simply isent any market for those in Swahili in this country. But there is in Irish.

I don't see how any of this offsets the billion euro budget, nor will I. As I said above, jobs involving Irish are for the teaching or promotion of the language. Remember when you are talking about the Gaelteachts that they are themselves subsidised.

Some aspects of the Gaelthachts are subsidised, Shops arent.:rolleyes:

There is no 'Billion Euro Budget'
There was a figure of 1 Billion spent on Irish in 2006(there have since been severe cut backs)
But the point is that the vast majority of that money would still be spent, on the very same thing even if Irish was banned in the state.

I would advocate bi-lingualism as long as it is laissez faire.

In your system monolingualism is enforced.

RandomName2

Jim236 wrote: »

Theres a difference between reviving and preserving. The Irish language is not dead and therefore cannot be "revived", so straight away your whole post is nonsense.

My post is nonsense because of the word 'revived'? That word was actually my conceit to the Irish-lobbyists. I would personally not use the word 'revive' because it is nigh-impossible to generate indigenous culture through pay-cheques and public sector bias.

Jim236 wrote: »

And who are you to say English should take precedence over Irish? People on here constantly harp on about being "forced" to learn Irish. What about those who were "forced" to learn English? I'm one of those people and I was denied the opportunity to become fluent in my native language because of the flawed education system we have atm.

You were forced to learn English? What do you speak at home - double dutch? But, no, quite simply you are correct: we are forced to learn English. That is two-fold; it is our native language and it is also pragmatic. It equips us for life both at home and abroad.

I won't be glib and say, 'well why don't you pick up a book if you are so keen to learn Irish' (and no, that wasn't an occupatio). The Irish education system is very bad at teaching Irish, and a lot of that is due to its attitude to Irish.

Jim236 wrote: »

If all primary and secondary schools taught every subject (except English) through Irish, we would have a fully bilingual society. Not 1 person on here can produce 1 shred of evidence to show that having Irish medium schools as standard would adversely effect students' level of English. But we can all show proof that it wouldn't. Just look at the bunscoileanna and gaelscoileanna around the country, students are leaving school fully fluent in both Irish and English.

Yes, yes, but it is undue focus. Are you saying 'Oh woe is me I would now have Gailge at my fingertips (which is the only language of any cultural merit to me) if only I had been forced to learn all my subjects through Irish.

And why all the focus on Irish? To equip us with the skills to teach Irish? Or merely to make us look different from the English? Don't we have the Catholic Church to fill that function?

Jim236 wrote: »

Why the government don't just make this the standard for all schools and give taxpayers a return for their money is beyond me, instead they just continue with the current tokenist system that does nothing for the Irish language and wastes millions of taxpayers money every year.

Well, that much is true, although I would hardly quantify it as a mere 'token'.

RandomName2

deise go deo wrote: »

There is no 'Billion Euro Budget'
There was a figure of 1 Billion spent on Irish in 2006(there have since been severe cut backs)
But the point is that the vast majority of that money would still be spent, on the very same thing even if Irish was banned in the state.


In your system monolingualism is enforced.

I would suggest that one billion is a vast underestimate.

Every translation, every class in Irish, every payment to the Gaelteacht, every program on TG4.

Off the top of my head I would say more like 20 billion.

Not that all of that is a waste. Arts does not in itself generate revenue (unless economics is being loosely considered a section of the Arts), but is rather designed to engender thought in the individual and cultural awareness.

My 'system' would not enforce monolingualism. It would merely NOT enforce bi-lingualism. If monolingualism is a consequence of people not being forced to learn Irish, then so be it. If Irish is as strong a cultural force as you claim, this would not be the case. Either way, win-win.

Jim236

€20 billion? Are you for real?:rolleyes: