Is Irish a dead language?

RandomName2

LordSutch wrote: »

No mention of the Irish language though, now lets get back on topic 'please'! and how did the rising get into this thread?

Oooh, oooh! I know! T'was Iwasfrozen saying that all this Irish malarkey was a result of DeV's ultra-nationalism, the merit of which could be seen in his participation in the 'terrorist' attack upon Dublin in the Easter Rising. The use of the word 'terrorist' in relation to the Easter Rising was always going to drag down the general level of the responses

I would be tempted to say that whether or not Irish should be compulsory for LC should be given a referendum in itself - but two things: it isn't an important enough topic, but much more important, the very people who it affects would not have a vote. Once we are out of the mire of having to go through that learning process, one is more likely to lump this national service upon the next generation.

deise go deo

Godge wrote: »

Why is it that the biggest single policy failure in this State since 1922 has been the teaching of the Irish language?


Official policy might say one thing but the quote above is not the first or the last time I have heard Ruairi Quinn (Labour spokesperson on education) question the way in which Irish has been taught. That includes the compulsory nature of the subject. I cannot find the exact quote I am looking for but I would not be so sure about Labour's commitment to compulsory Irish.

Well he is absoutly right to question how Irish has been taught, It has been and for the most part still is very poorly taught. No one denies that there is a problem, If Labour want to tackle the problems and reform how Irish is taught then That would be exclent.

Labour however has committed its self to Irish remaining compulsory. Eamonn Gilmore has confirmed his commitment to Keeping Irish as a Core subject for the LC.

Labour's Irish language spokesman, Brian O'Shea, confirmed that he and Mr Gilmore had told Conradh na Gaeilge, the Irish-language organisation, that they favoured maintaining the status quo in relation to Irish.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/main-parties-differ-on-their-education-policies-2509057.html

Though hopefully by 'maintain the status quo' they mean keep it compulsory only, and not just leave it as it is now, as it really dose need major reform in the curriculum.

Laughable. People weren't out on the streets when the bank guarantee bankrupted the country. Students couldn't even muster up more than one street march against the rise in college fees. The people might be out on the streets of Barna or Baile an Fheirtearaigh but I don't think too many will notice. Could see Dev Og elected again though, but he needs the votes after falling asleep at the FF manifesto launch this morning.

Well we shall see. Plans are already being made for protests should FG go ahead with their plans.

LordSutch

deise go deo wrote: »

Labour however has committed its self to Irish remaining compulsory. Eamonn Gilmore has confirmed his commitment to Keeping Irish as a Core subject for the LC.

But then how many more decades before it begins to be taught properly? surely after eighty years we should all be able to speak Irish?
I agree with Fine Gael & Enda (a fluent Irish speaker himself), give pupils the choice for leaving cert, give a bit of slack . . .

It might actually do the Irish language some good over the course of time.

eVeNtInE

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deise go deo

LordSutch wrote: »

But then how many more decades before it begins to be taught properly? surely after eighty years we should all be able to speak Irish?

I would hope that the next government takes reform of the Curriculum seriously, Hopefully with the implementation of the 20 year plan, reforms will be made in how Irish is taught.

No, Language shift takes genarations, It took longer for Ireland to becoms English speaking and the British had all manner of tools to speed things up.

I agree with Fine Gael & Enda (a fluent Irish speaker himself), give pupils the choice for leaving cert, give a bit of slack . . .

It might actually do the Irish language some good over the course of time.

The problem is that your might is no more than that, A vague notion with no evidience in support of it.

Oasis_Dublin

LordSutch wrote: »

From Wiki; At first, many member s of the Dublin public were simply bewildered by the outbreak of the Rising.[85] James Stephens, who was in Dublin during the week, thought, "None of these people were prepared for Insurrection. The thing had been sprung on them so suddenly they were unable to take sides".[86]

There was considerable hostility towards the Volunteers in some parts of the city. When occupying positions in the South Dublin Union and Jacobs factory, the rebels got involved in physical confrontations with civilians trying to prevent them from taking over the buildings. The Volunteers' shooting and clubbing of civilians made them extremely unpopular in these localities.[87] There was outright hostility to the Volunteers from the "separation women", (so-called because they were paid "Separation Money" by the British government) who had husbands and son fighting in the British Army in World War I, and among unionists.[88] Supporters of the Irish Parliamentary Party also felt the rebellion was a betrayal of their party.[89]

Finally, the fact that the Rising had caused a great deal of death and destruction also contributed towards antagonism towards the rebels. After the surrender, the Volunteers were hissed at, pelted with refuse, and denounced as 'murderers' and 'starvers of the people'.[90] Volunteer Robert Holland for example remembered being abused by people he knew as he was being marched into captivity and said the British troops saved them from being manhandled by the crowds.[91]

"they were unable to take sides...hostility towards the Volunteers in some parts of the city."

LordSutch wrote: »

No mention of the Irish language though, now lets get back on topic 'please'! and how did the rising get into this thread?

"Kenny's idea is bad. It needs to be reformed."

eVeNtInE

This post has been deleted.

Oasis_Dublin

If Irish loses its compulsion then so should English and Maths. Learning off quotes and notes did not endear me to Patrick Kavanagh while learned off formulae for maths exams have not been used since.

deise go deo

eVeNtInE wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I would agree, But making it optional wont fix that, Reforming the curriculum on the other hand......

Judgement Day

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

If Irish loses its compulsion then so should English and Maths. Learning off quotes and notes did not endear me to Patrick Kavanagh while learned off formulae for maths exams have not been used since.

While I have some sympathy with your point of view, I think you would have to agree that some basic Maths and English is advisable to get on in the World, whereas Irish has nothing to recommend it. I have two children at primary school and I really have to bite my tongue when it comes to helping with their Irish homework. It really is such a useless waste of valuable school time. As an aside, I learnt Latin and French (badly) which I also consider to have been a waste of time especially the former. Irish is never going to become the national spoken language of Ireland and anyway it is not the common heritage of all the people of this island.

BlaasForRafa

LordSutch wrote: »

Well Pat Kenny did say that it would be a double edged sword, with many welcoming the FG announcement, whilst at the same time antagonising those who maintain that Irish must be retained as a compulsory leaving cert subject.

I would say that the former vastly outweigh the latter, the generations who had that s***e Peig inflicted on them will sympathise with this proposal.

Reform of the way the language is taught would probably make it less disliked and along with getting rid of the compulsion may actually improve the chances of irish surviving instead of remaining in its current moribund state.

Those who still want to learn irish can by all means do so but those who want to learn something thats actually useful to their life or something they actually have an interest in instead of having irish imposed on them.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

No, Language shift takes genarations, It took longer for Ireland to becoms English speaking and the British had all manner of tools to speed things up.

What tools were they?

The most important factor in the adoption of English as the principal spoken language, used in the daily lives of Irish people was their desire and determination to learn it.

Godge

deise go deo wrote: »

I would agree, But making it optional wont fix that, Reforming the curriculum on the other hand......

Reforming the curriculum has been tried, many many times, at primary level, at Junior Cert level and at Leaving Cert level. Between them all there must have been 10 revisions in the last twenty-five years.

The emphasis nowadays is on the oral. The latest revision of the Leaving Cert gives it more prominence than ever before.

25 years ago it was Peig and poems to the exclusion of everything else. Not so now. The conclusion that can be drawn is that curriculum reform has been tried and has failed, optional Irish has not been tried so should be given a chance.

If we want to give curriculum reform another try, we all might as well give FF another try at running the country.

Fighting Irish

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

If Irish loses its compulsion then so should English and Maths. Learning off quotes and notes did not endear me to Patrick Kavanagh while learned off formulae for maths exams have not been used since.

Have fun in life without maths or english

Godge

deise go deo wrote: »

Labour however has committed its self to Irish remaining compulsory. Eamonn Gilmore has confirmed his commitment to Keeping Irish as a Core subject for the LC.



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/main-parties-differ-on-their-education-policies-2509057.html

Though hopefully by 'maintain the status quo' they mean keep it compulsory only, and not just leave it as it is now, as it really dose need major reform in the curriculum.





Well we shall see. Plans are already being made for protests should FG go ahead with their plans.

Labour have left themselves enough wriggle room to abolish Irish:). Of course, another option would be to make Irish compulsory for Gaeltacht areas and Gaelscoileanna and optional for everyone else. Wonder how long either would last?? Would people really stick with it then? That would be an interesting experiment.

As for the street protests, let us know when they are on and will go along and watch.

deise go deo

Godge wrote: »

Reforming the curriculum has been tried, many many times, at primary level, at Junior Cert level and at Leaving Cert level. Between them all there must have been 10 revisions in the last twenty-five years.

The emphasis nowadays is on the oral. The latest revision of the Leaving Cert gives it more prominence than ever before.

No, sorry but that is not true, There has never been major reform in how Irish is taught. There have been minor changes, but Poems and Reading comprehension are still the bread and butter of Irish class across the country.

25 years ago it was Peig and poems to the exclusion of everything else. Not so now. The conclusion that can be drawn is that curriculum reform has been tried and has failed, optional Irish has not been tried so should be given a chance.

If we want to give curriculum reform another try, we all might as well give FF another try at running the country.

Again, The Curriculum has never had any serious reform.

Now instead of Peig we have Fiche Blian ag Fás, Clare sa speir and An Bean Og.
(An inprovment perhaps but the same underlying problem)

Sopken Irish still gets very little time. Oral has been given a greater emphsis and improvment have been made, And shock of all, peoples attuide's have improved along with the improvments, But to claim that there has ever been a major reform in the curiculum is just telling lies.


I finished the LC course two years ago. It was bad then, it has not improved since.

deise go deo

Godge wrote: »

Labour have left themselves enough wriggle room to abolish Irish:). Of course, another option would be to make Irish compulsory for Gaeltacht areas and Gaelscoileanna and optional for everyone else. Wonder how long either would last?? Would people really stick with it then? That would be an interesting experiment.

As for the street protests, let us know when they are on and will go along and watch.

Labour dont want to abolish Irish. Why would they, They would be doing themselvs massive damage as a party.
As for how long Gaelscoileanna would last? Well demand is still well ahead of supply and there are campaigns for 16 more, so I cant see them going away any time soon.

As soon as one is organised I will let you know.

Oasis_Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

While I have some sympathy with your point of view, I think you would have to agree that some basic Maths and English is advisable to get on in the World, whereas Irish has nothing to recommend it. I have two children at primary school and I really have to bite my tongue when it comes to helping with their Irish homework. It really is such a useless waste of valuable school time. As an aside, I learnt Latin and French (badly) which I also consider to have been a waste of time especially the former. Irish is never going to become the national spoken language of Ireland and anyway it is not the common heritage of all the people of this island.

Ah come on now! A basic level of Maths and English?! I'm almost certain I had my basic level of English by the time I did the Junior Cert. Why is learning poetry in English such an important thing? I did pass maths at LC level and did not need to do any study for what was essentially JC part 2.

I do not deny for a second that Irish needs to be taught differently, it should be more cleachtadh comhrá and less Peig agus an Triail. More of an emphasis on an oral exam maybe?

You would do well to prove that there is absolutely no blood from someone who spoke Irish in your family. The language is part of what we are and the only reason why people have such a chip on their shoulder about it is because it is taught so poorly.

Oasis_Dublin

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Have fun in life without maths or english

True that. I learned everything I know regarding Maths and English at Leaving Cert level. You're a sharp one!

Oasis_Dublin

Godge wrote: »

If we want to give curriculum reform another try, we all might as well give FF another try at running the country.

What an outrageously stupid comparison to make! The Irish language didn't sell the country's sovereignty down the hole. You apologise to the Irish language!

BlaasForRafa

The language is part of what we are

No it isn't, its only obsessive gaelgoirs and "wrap the green flag around me" republicans who believe that .

and the only reason why people have such a chip on their shoulder about it is because it is taught so poorly.

Many people actively dislike the language because they are forced to learn something which is completely irrelevant to their lives. 12 years wasted and a lot of people wouldn't be speak a sentance beyond being able to ask if they can go out to the toilet.

Godge

deise go deo wrote: »

No, sorry but that is not true, There has never been major reform in how Irish is taught. There have been minor changes, but Poems and Reading comprehension are still the bread and butter of Irish class across the country.





Again, The Curriculum has never had any serious reform.

Now instead of Peig we have Fiche Blian ag Fás, Clare sa speir and An Bean Og.
(An inprovment perhaps but the same underlying problem)

Sopken Irish still gets very little time. Oral has been given a greater emphsis and improvment have been made, And shock of all, peoples attuide's have improved along with the improvments, But to claim that there has ever been a major reform in the curiculum is just telling lies.


I finished the LC course two years ago. It was bad then, it has not improved since.

The primary curriculum was reformed in 1999, late in your primary school
education so you probably didn't notice. To be fair, I wouldn't expect you to have. There is a new Leaving Cert curriculum effective from 1 September 2010. Both of those were/are major change (there are others but not time to dig out). Numerous other tweakings along the way. The Leaving Cert you did is vastly different from the one I did many years ago.

You have suggested major curriculum reform is needed to help Irish. The facts show that curriculum reform has occurred again and again and failed. Another option - abolition of compulsory Irish - should be tried.

Judgement Day

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Ah come on now! A basic level of Maths and English?! I'm almost certain I had my basic level of English by the time I did the Junior Cert. Why is learning poetry in English such an important thing? I did pass maths at LC level and did not need to do any study for what was essentially JC part 2.

I do not deny for a second that Irish needs to be taught differently, it should be more cleachtadh comhrá and less Peig agus an Triail. More of an emphasis on an oral exam maybe?

You would do well to prove that there is absolutely no blood from someone who spoke Irish in your family. The language is part of what we are and the only reason why people have such a chip on their shoulder about it is because it is taught so poorly.

I can quite definitely say that there have never been any Irish speakers in my family and in fact my uncle was forced to emigrate to the UK in the 1950s to follow his vocation as a teacher as he had no Irish. I consider myself fortunate in that I didn't have to do Irish in the Leaving Certificate as I would certainly have failed the exam. As I said, there is a sizeable minority on the island (north and south) who have no cultural affinity with the language and I find it offensive to find that it is inflicted on my children. On a personal basis I find the meaning of Irish place names interesting but I didn't need to be badly taught Irish for several years at secondary school to develop an understanding of them. In fact, I suspect that my knowledge of the meanings of such names is superior to many of those well versed in the language who are employed by local authorities, State bodies etc. who persist in bastardising place names.
Sorry for the rant.

deise go deo

Godge wrote: »

The primary curriculum was reformed in 1999, late in your primary school
education so you probably didn't notice. To be fair, I wouldn't expect you to have. There is a new Leaving Cert curriculum effective from 1 September 2010. Both of those were/are major change (there are others but not time to dig out). Numerous other tweakings along the way. The Leaving Cert you did is vastly different from the one I did many years ago.

You have suggested major curriculum reform is needed to help Irish. The facts show that curriculum reform has occurred again and again and failed. Another option - abolition of compulsory Irish - should be tried.

Sorry Godge, Irish class still spend most of its time on Poetry/reading comprehension/essays.

Very little time is given to oral. Oral has gotten a bigger share of the markes, not a bigger share of class time.

The underlying problems are the same as they ever were. To little time spent on spoken Irish. To much time spent on Liturature etc.

Improvments have been made, No doubt about that, and Irish has grown in Popularity as a result, But there has been no major reform in how the subject is taught. No change in the priorities of teaching.

The kind of reform I am talking about is Spliting Irish into Two subjects. One with its primary focus on Spoken Irish with only a small secondary focus on Written Irish. This would remain Compulsory

The second subject to be Irish lituature, For those intrested in persuing Irish to a higher level, This subject would be optional.

In Primary school a second subject(PE, Art) should be taught through the medium of Irish.



*Edit*

---

There is a new Leaving Cert curriculum effective from 1 September 2010.

The facts show that curriculum reform has occurred again and again and failed

Wait a minute, Are you claiming that a (supposidly major) curriculum change that started only 7 months ago has already been shown to have failed?
To the extent that the only way to go at this point (Only 7 months after the last 'Suposidly major' reform)
Is to make it optional?

You dont think that might be a little hasty? Ok sure 7 months and all, but still, Surly you could give it a little more time before you pull the plug on the latest (Suposidly major) Reform.

deise go deo

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Many people actively dislike the language because they are forced to learn something which is completely irrelevant to their lives. 12 years wasted and a lot of people wouldn't be speak a sentance beyond being able to ask if they can go out to the toilet.

Strange how these 'Many' people dont really seam to show up in polls on peoples attuides to the language, isent it?

If the evidience was to be believed(A crazy notion to be sure) Then the number of people who activly dislike the language is very small(around 6-7%)

Oasis_Dublin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

No it isn't, its only obsessive gaelgoirs and "wrap the green flag around me" republicans who believe that .





Many people actively dislike the language because they are forced to learn something which is completely irrelevant to their lives. 12 years wasted and a lot of people wouldn't be speak a sentance beyond being able to ask if they can go out to the toilet.

I am neither of the above. I like many aspects of British and American culture but I don't feel its a choice between being an obsessive gaelgoire republican and an anglophile. There is a happy medium as long as you can remove that giant chip from your shoulder (but that doesn't exist of course!)

I hated the language until I was in 2nd year but I garnered a respect for the language from a teacher who had passion for the language.

Oasis_Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

I can quite definitely say that there have never been any Irish speakers in my family and in fact my uncle was forced to emigrate to the UK in the 1950s to follow his vocation as a teacher as he had no Irish. I consider myself fortunate in that I didn't have to do Irish in the Leaving Certificate as I would certainly have failed the exam. As I said, there is a sizeable minority on the island (north and south) who have no cultural affinity with the language and I find it offensive to find that it is inflicted on my children. On a personal basis I find the meaning of Irish place names interesting but I didn't need to be badly taught Irish for several years at secondary to develop an understanding of them. In fact, I suspect that my knowledge of the meanings of such names is superior to many of those well versed in the language who are employed by local authorities, State bodies etc. who persist in bastardising place names.
Sorry for the rant.

Not at all? I'd be very surprised about that! Where are you from? Where were your forefathers from?

You didn't do Irish for the Leaving Cert? The only people I know who were afforded that "honour" were foreign nationals or else people with learning disorders.

Let's deal with the 26 counties for now. It's not up to small minoritys to dictate how the majority of schoolchildren are taught, that's only fair.

You know about the place names. Is that because the English is written above them?;) Or do you know what the word was before it was anglicised? That would be a fairly large knowledge of a language you couldn't take at LC level.

Godge

deise go deo wrote: »

Strange how these 'Many' people dont really seam to show up in polls on peoples attuides to the language, isent it?

If the evidience was to be believed(A crazy notion to be sure) Then the number of people who activly dislike the language is very small(around 6-7%)

A few pages ago you stated 4% of people spoke Irish daily and should have that amount of state money spent on them and have Government priorities directed towards them.

Taking that position, and using your logic, the number of people who actively dislike the language outnumber those who speak it and therefore greater regard should be had to the first group and we should see the abolition of compulsory Irish and the Official Languages Act as well as the removal of the constitutional protection for the language. Thankfully, nobody else on the forum relies on your logic so there is nobody suggesting it.

I am sure you will change your view once this inconsistency is pointed out. In the same way you suggested curriculum reform should take precedence over the abolition of compulsory Irish. When it was pointed out that curriculum reform had already been tried a couple of times, (should have linked to the NCCA site to prove it), you became a "curriculum reform denier" to state that it hadn't really happened.

BlaasForRafa

deise go deo wrote: »

Strange how these 'Many' people dont really seam to show up in polls on peoples attuides to the language, isent it?

If the evidience was to be believed(A crazy notion to be sure) Then the number of people who activly dislike the language is very small(around 6-7%)

If thats the case then why the insecurity over making irish non-compulsory?

If so many people "love" the language as you seem to think then why the paranoia about the language going extinct after it goes optional? Surely the kids will be flocking to do it if it goes optional hmmmmm?

deise go deo

Godge wrote: »

A few pages ago you stated 4% of people spoke Irish daily and should have that amount of state money spent on them and have Government priorities directed towards them.

Taking that position, and using your logic, the number of people who actively dislike the language outnumber those who speak it and therefore greater regard should be had to the first group and we should see the abolition of compulsory Irish and the Official Languages Act as well as the removal of the constitutional protection for the language. Thankfully, nobody else on the forum relies on your logic so there is nobody suggesting it.

I am sure you will change your view once this inconsistency is pointed out. In the same way you suggested curriculum reform should take precedence over the abolition of compulsory Irish. When it was pointed out that curriculum reform had already been tried a couple of times, (should have linked to the NCCA site to prove it), you became a "curriculum reform denier" to state that it hadn't really happened.

not really, when you consider that all polls agree that the vast majority(Bot Irish and non Irish speaking) Wish for Irish to be supported.

Se we could go with the 7% but the 93% who want Irish to be preserved and Promoted might be a bit put out.