Is Irish a dead language?

deise go deo

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

If thats the case then why the insecurity over making irish non-compulsory?

If so many people "love" the language as you seem to think then why the paranoia about the language going extinct after it goes optional? Surely the kids will be flocking to do it if it goes optional hmmmmm?

I have answered this same question three times.

Lets just say that your argument relies on the asumption that the only reason someone wouldent do Irish if it was made optional is because they dident want to. A Small bit of tought will show you this is far from the case.

BlaasForRafa

deise go deo wrote: »

not really, when you consider that all polls agree that the vast majority(Bot Irish and non Irish speaking) Wish for Irish to be supported.

Se we could go with the 7% but the 93% who want Irish to be preserved and Promoted might be a bit put out.

Give us a source for these so-called polls. And their polling methodology as well, if they're polls of primarily gaeltacht areas then they'd hardly be balanced.

BlaasForRafa

deise go deo wrote: »

I have answered this same question three times.

Lets just say that your argument relies on the asumption that the only reason someone wouldent do Irish if it was made optional is because they dident want to. A Small bit of tought will show you this is far from the case.

You haven't answered the questions.

If thats the case then why the insecurity over making irish non-compulsory?

If so many people "love" the language as you seem to think then why the paranoia about the language going extinct after it goes optional? Surely the kids will be flocking to do it if it goes optional hmmmmm?

deise go deo

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Give us a source for these so-called polls. And their polling methodology as well, if they're polls of primarily gaeltacht areas then they'd hardly be balanced.

The poll is called 'The Irish people and the Irish language' I think, The Library I am in is closing so I will put up a link in a while, There is also a poll on Irish language raidion that included the question, Neither were based in a Gaelthacht.

Godge

deise go deo wrote: »

*Edit*

---

Wait a minute, Are you claiming that a (supposidly major) curriculum change that started only 7 months ago has already been shown to have failed?
To the extent that the only way to go at this point (Only 7 months after the last 'Suposidly major' reform)
Is to make it optional?

You dont think that might be a little hasty? Ok sure 7 months and all, but still, Surly you could give it a little more time before you pull the plug on the latest (Suposidly major) Reform.

Missed your edit. Nope wasn't claiming that, was only claiming that this was the latest major reform. When I did the Leaving Cert, oral Irish was about 5-10% of the marks. It is now 40% (25% when you did it, I think) thanks to a series of major reforms. If you add in the aural part (which didn't exist when I did the LC - does that count as a major reform?) it is over 55% I think. By the way, the major change that led to the increase to 25% and the introduction of the aural test was in 1995, plenty of time to have had an effect. It is probably the subject that has changed and reformed the most, apart from something like economics or physics where genuinely new discoveries are being made every few years.

Godge

deise go deo wrote: »

The poll is called 'The Irish people and the Irish language' I think, The Library I am in is closing so I will put up a link in a while, There is also a poll on Irish language raidion that included the question, Neither were based in a Gaelthacht.

To understand polls like that, you have to watch Yes Minister

"Sir Humphrey: "You know what happens: nice young lady comes up to you. Obviously you want to create a good impression, you don't want to look a fool, do you? So she starts asking you some questions: Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the number of young people without jobs?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Are you worried about the rise in crime among teenagers?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Do you think there is a lack of discipline in our Comprehensive schools?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Do you think young people welcome some authority and leadership in their lives?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Do you think they respond to a challenge?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Would you be in favour of reintroducing National Service?"
Bernard Woolley: "Oh...well, I suppose I might be."
Sir Humphrey: "Yes or no?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Of course you would, Bernard. After all you told you can't say no to that. So they don't mention the first five questions and they publish the last one."
Bernard Woolley: "Is that really what they do?"
Sir Humphrey: "Well, not the reputable ones no, but there aren't many of those. So alternatively the young lady can get the opposite result."
Bernard Woolley: "How?"
Sir Humphrey: "Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the danger of war?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Are you worried about the growth of armaments?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Do you think there is a danger in giving young people guns and teaching them how to kill?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Do you think it is wrong to force people to take up arms against their will?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Would you oppose the reintroduction of National Service?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "There you are, you see Bernard. The perfect balanced sample."


Nice lady comes up to Godge (a typical ignornant Irishman):

Lady: Do you believe that each nation should have its own identity?
Godge: Yes
Lady: Do you believe that language forms an important part of a nation's identity?
Godge: Yes
Lady: Are you Irish?
Godge: Yes
Lady:Are you proud to be Irish?
Godge: Yes
Lady: Do you believe it is important that the Irish language is an important part of being Irish?
Godge (trapped): Yes
Lady: If the experts say that compulsory Irish is required to preserve the language, should it be continued?
Godge (feeling stupid): Yes

Judgement Day

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Not at all? I'd be very surprised about that! Where are you from? Where were your forefathers from?

England & Scotland pre-1649 and I'm not unique.

You didn't do Irish for the Leaving Cert? The only people I know who were afforded that "honour" were foreign nationals or else people with learning disorders.

In my Leaving Cert year I did so-called 'Irish Culture' which actually meant that you were free to revise other subjects during the class - with a few words of Irish stuck up on the blackboard in case an inspector happened to call in. That the school taught Irish at all was down to their not wishing to lose funding from the Department which would have reduced teacher numbers.

Let's deal with the 26 counties for now. It's not up to small minoritys to dictate how the majority of schoolchildren are taught, that's only fair.

Quite, but it's also not fair for the language of the majority to be forced on the minority. No point in saying that English was forced on the native Irish - to use that awful phrase we are where we are. I have even heard Republicans say that the only good thing the English ever did here was to bring their language.

You know about the place names. Is that because the English is written above them?;) Or do you know what the word was before it was anglicised? That would be a fairly large knowledge of a language you couldn't take at LC level.

I am interested in Irish history and have always been interested in place names - no big deal.

RandomName2

VOTE FIANNA FAIL TO SAVE IRISH LANGUAGE!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/martin-fine-gael-policy-would-lead-to-extinction-of-irish-language-492560.html

- Jeez if compulsion is the only thing saving it from extinction :rolleyes:

Judgement Day

Talking of clutching at straws. Just heard Conor Lenihan on Vincent Browne tonight admit that they are only running 76 candidates i.e. they are not looking for overall majority. The white flag has been well and truly run up.

Oasis_Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

I am interested in Irish history and have always been interested in place names - no big deal.

McConkey is a name in my family. Undoubtedly a Scottish name but that does not mean that there is not gaelic blood in there (probably because the Scoti people whom Scotland is named originated in... yes you guessed it, the Irish Free State). And before you argue that there is English blood in me from various different invasions from England, I accept this and see both languages as important in defining Irishness.

Similarly, if you go far enough back on one side of my family, there is Protestant (shock horror) blood. Saying that your family is from England and Scotland pre 1649 with the suggestion that no dirty fenian blood got in there somewhere along the line is not a reasonable argument to make.

Forced on? As a fifth generation Dubliner (and as such presumably a 5th generation English speaker) I don't feel the language has been forced on me anymore than LC English was forced on me. Make both compulsory or don't change the system. I'm being objective, you're being obviously biased.

What school was this? Wesley?

deise go deo

RandomName2 wrote: »

VOTE FIANNA FAIL TO SAVE IRISH LANGUAGE!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/martin-fine-gael-policy-would-lead-to-extinction-of-irish-language-492560.html

- Jeez if compulsion is the only thing saving it from extinction :rolleyes:

No Thanks, Id rather Vote Labour to save the Irish language thanks.

Lady: Do you believe that each nation should have its own identity?
Godge: Yes
Lady: Do you believe that language forms an important part of a nation's identity?
Godge: Yes
Lady: Are you Irish?
Godge: Yes
Lady:Are you proud to be Irish?
Godge: Yes
Lady: Do you believe it is important that the Irish language is an important part of being Irish?
Godge (trapped): Yes
Lady: If the experts say that compulsory Irish is required to preserve the language, should it be continued?
Godge (feeling stupid): Yes

Well now that you have that out of your system,

The Irish language and the Irish people.

Conducted by NUI Maynooth.


Turning on and Tuning into Irish Language Radio

Carried out by MORI Ireland.



Both these surveys, Carried out a different times by different groups, agree that 93% support the Irish language.

Judgement Day

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

McConkey is a name in my family. Undoubtedly a Scottish name but that does not mean that there is not gaelic blood in there (probably because the Scoti people whom Scotland is named originated in... yes you guessed it, the Irish Free State). And before you argue that there is English blood in me from various different invasions from England, I accept this and see both languages as important in defining Irishness.

I won't be trying to argue that there is English blood in you as it is kind of irrelevant to the discussion as you're happy to have learnt Irish. However, I see the whole language issue in the same light as having to be a Roman Catholic, a GAA fan and Republican to be considered Irish.

Similarly, if you go far enough back on one side of my family, there is Protestant (shock horror) blood. Saying that your family is from England and Scotland pre 1649 with the suggestion that no dirty fenian blood got in there somewhere along the line is not a reasonable argument to make.

I never said anything about 'dirty fenian blood' and indeed there have been a few renegades in my own family but they would be in a tiny minority. I can trace my direct line back to Warwickshire in 1600 and further, and there is no evidence of 'Celtic' blood there - plenty of marrying 1st cousins though which probably accounts for my personality.

Forced on? As a fifth generation Dubliner (and as such presumably a 5th generation English speaker) I don't feel the language has been forced on me anymore than LC English was forced on me. Make both compulsory or don't change the system. I'm being objective, you're being obviously biased.

I am biased, I consider learning Irish a complete waste of time - just like Latin. My abiding memory of Latin is this ditty which could equally be applied to Irish.

'Latin is a language as dead as dead can be, it killed the ancient Romans and now it's killing me.' Incidentally, I had no great love for the English language at school and gave that up too before the Leaving.

What school was this? Wesley?

Close.

Hope this answers your points. Sorry for dragging the thread off topic.

Oasis_Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

Hope this answers your points. Sorry for dragging the thread off topic.

The language is cross-community though, unlike the Roman Catholic Church. Republican is a vague term so it does not define the Irish nation.

A tiny minority, but still gaelic blood in there. Thus my original statement , "You would do well to prove that there is absolutely no blood from someone who spoke Irish in your family," seems to be a reasonable one. Even if I was to say some form of gaelic language, not necessarily Irish.

I consider learning French a waste of time. I have no use for it and it's not 'Irish' in any way. I don't see Irish as a school subject though, it's something more than that.

Godge

deise go deo wrote: »

No Thanks, Id rather Vote Labour to save the Irish language thanks.




Well now that you have that out of your system,

The Irish language and the Irish people.

Conducted by NUI Maynooth.


Turning on and Tuning into Irish Language Radio

Carried out by MORI Ireland.



Both these surveys, Carried out a different times by different groups, agree that 93% support the Irish language.

Did you read the Yes Minister extract. It basically said that you can get any result from an opinion poll that you want.

Your first survey (apart from the names of the authors giving it away), for some reason I couldn't copy from it, but by the time I had read the foreword I had discounted it because of the funders (Dept. of the Gaeltacht) and the authors.

The second survey was commissioned by Foras na Gaeilge and that says enough about it for me.

Did you know that cigarette companies produced scientific research after scientific research that showed that there was no ill-health effect from inhaling cigarette smoke? I believe them too.

Oasis_Dublin

Oh, and the school has to be St. Columba's then.

deise go deo

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

You haven't answered the questions.

If thats the case then why the insecurity over making irish non-compulsory?

If so many people "love" the language as you seem to think then why the paranoia about the language going extinct after it goes optional? Surely the kids will be flocking to do it if it goes optional hmmmmm?

Oh I have, just not in this thread. Here it is again.

For your argument to work you have to assume the only reason someone would not choose to do Irish is because they dont want to do it.

There are several factors that would influence people not to Choose Irish, even if on balance it is something they would like to learn.

-The first and most important factor is its poor curriculum, Even if you want to learn Irish, you wont learn it in the current LC course.
-Languages are considered harder subjects to learn and do well in, This is a very important factor when points is such a large factor in the choices people make in the LC.
-Irish has 7.5 hours of exams at the end of it, How many people will choose that work load when they can do a subject that has 2.5 hours of exams at the end of it for the same points.
-Competition, Due to Timetabling Irish will often clash with other subjects that people want to do. People may want to do Irish, But not as much as they want to do History(For example) that is timetabled at the same time in their school.
-Irish will not be available in all schools.



On top of this, It seems clear to many people that FG's proposal is just the thin end of the wedge, In a few years time It will be the turn of the JC, few years after that, sher they dont need it for Secondary school, why should it be compulsory in Primary school.

Judgement Day

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Oh, and the school has to be St. Columba's then.

You will be saying you know where I live next.

deise go deo

Godge wrote: »

Did you read the Yes Minister extract. It basically said that you can get any result from an opinion poll that you want.

Your first survey (apart from the names of the authors giving it away), for some reason I couldn't copy from it, but by the time I had read the foreword I had discounted it because of the funders (Dept. of the Gaeltacht) and the authors.

The second survey was commissioned by Foras na Gaeilge and that says enough about it for me.

Did you know that cigarette companies produced scientific research after scientific research that showed that there was no ill-health effect from inhaling cigarette smoke? I believe them too.

So you believe that a national university and a professional Survey company would risk their reputations to skew results in favor of the Irish language? Any evidence for this claim? Or counter evidence to the surveys I have provided? I think just assuming that evidence that dosent agree with you Must have been twisted(With out evidence that it had) Is a bit of a cop out to be honest.

Basicly you say surveys can be twisted, But saying that and expecting us to just discount two pieces of research on the basis of you saying that is a little too much to expect, If on the other hand, you can back those claims up, that would be a different matter.


In the case of cigarette companies and their 'Scientific' Research, I am sure that any one of us could go and find counter evidence to show why they were wrong.

I am asking you to do the same, You claim the surveys I provided are wrong, I say thats quite convenient for you, so prove it.(Or at least provide some counter evidence.)

Godge

deise go deo wrote: »

Oh I have, just not in this thread. Here it is again.

For your argument to work you have to assume the only reason someone would not choose to do Irish is because they dont want to do it.

There are several factors that would influence people not to Choose Irish, even if on balance it is something they would like to learn.

-The first and most important factor is its poor curriculum, Even if you want to learn Irish, you wont learn it in the current LC course.
- you have forgotten the new curriculum I told you about a few posts ago

-Languages are considered harder subjects to learn and do well in, This is a very important factor when points is such a large factor in the choices people make in the LC.
- says who? I think honours maths is a lot harder for a start let alone some of the other sciences. I think Irish also gets better grades than English. Will look up the stats for you in the next few days so you can stop arguing this point (oh, I can't lose this one because the previous point can negate your arguments anyway)

-Irish has 7.5 hours of exams at the end of it, How many people will choose that work load when they can do a subject that has 2.5 hours of exams at the end of it for the same points.
- 55% of the marks already awarded before June taking the pressure off, who wouldn't want that

-Competition, Due to Timetabling Irish will often clash with other subjects that people want to do. People may want to do Irish, But not as much as they want to do History(For example) that is timetabled at the same time in their school.
- Afraid of competition? Really? Is that not an admission of defeat. I will give you that argument

-Irish will not be available in all schools.
- Nothing to stop the state requiring it to be available in all schools



On top of this, It seems clear to many people that FG's proposal is just the thin end of the wedge, In a few years time It will be the turn of the JC, few years after that, sher they dont need it for Secondary school, why should it be compulsory in Primary school.

Reading your arguments, the clear strong one is the competition one. That translates as people won't do Irish because they don't want to. The Irish language movements deepest insecurities laid bare.

Godge

deise go deo wrote: »

So you believe that a national university and a professional Survey company would risk their reputations to skew results in favor of the Irish language? Any evidence for this claim? Or counter evidence to the surveys I have provided? I think just assuming that evidence that dosent agree with you Must have been twisted(With out evidence that it had) Is a bit of a cop out to be honest.

Basicly you say surveys can be twisted, But saying that and expecting us to just discount two pieces of research on the basis of you saying that is a little too much to expect, If on the other hand, you can back those claims up, that would be a different matter.


In the case of cigarette companies and their 'Scientific' Research, I am sure that any one of us could go and find counter evidence to show why they were wrong.

I am asking you to do the same, You claim the surveys I provided are wrong, I say thats quite convenient for you, so prove it.(Or at least provide some counter evidence.)

Yup, I am disregarding them just like that. Well to take one case the Public Service Benchmarking Body said pay increases were justified by their research. NUIM (the university you quote from) and their researcher Jim O'Leary disagreed. Not saying which I agree with but they were diametrically opposed. So possible to get two different results from academics. quelle surprise!

Fact is, the only people interested in doing a survey on the Irish language are the Irish language movement and apolgists to justify their position. Ditto the cigarette companies who knew for fifty years that they were wrong but kept publishing their research. they suppressed all other research and used their budgets to buy people off. In this case the government departments and state agencies use their budgets to buy the research they want.

RandomName2

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I consider learning French a waste of time. I have no use for it and it's not 'Irish' in any way. I don't see Irish as a school subject though, it's something more than that.

French is an optional subject; and at least it is spoken in several countries.

As much as I think that Latin is a very good subject I find some suggestions (mainly in England) that it become compulsory horrific! Those that like the subject, will take it anyway; those that won't (which will be the majority) will grow to absolutely hate it! Although it gives a good knowledge of the history of one's culture, it does not merit compulsion.

FF and proud

I think that Enda fella wanted to do away with the Irish for the leaving cert, another reason why patriotic men and women should vote for Fianna Fail.

RandomName2

deise go deo wrote: »

-The first and most important factor is its poor curriculum, Even if you want to learn Irish, you wont learn it in the current LC course.
-Languages are considered harder subjects to learn and do well in, This is a very important factor when points is such a large factor in the choices people make in the LC.
-Irish has 7.5 hours of exams at the end of it, How many people will choose that work load when they can do a subject that has 2.5 hours of exams at the end of it for the same points.
-Competition, Due to Timetabling Irish will often clash with other subjects that people want to do. People may want to do Irish, But not as much as they want to do History(For example) that is timetabled at the same time in their school.
-Irish will not be available in all schools.

All of the above are good reasons FOR it to be optional, with the exceptions of the point race, and a possible lack of availability of the subject.

In terms of the poor curriculum - sure, it should be fixed, but at the moment it's like saying: 'tesco's prices are outrageously high. That's a good reason to make it a monopoly'

RandomName2

FF and proud wrote: »

I think that Enda fella wanted to do away with the Irish for the leaving cert, another reason why patriotic men and women should vote for Fianna Fail.

Another good reason to vote FG.

Seriously, I am on a knife-edge about giving one FF candidate a decent preference, but... that knife-edge is awfully thin.

deise go deo

Godge wrote: »

Yup, I am disregarding them just like that. Well to take one case the Public Service Benchmarking Body said pay increases were justified by their research. NUIM (the university you quote from) and their researcher Jim O'Leary disagreed. Not saying which I agree with but they were diametrically opposed. So possible to get two different results from academics. quelle surprise!

Fact is, the only people interested in doing a survey on the Irish language are the Irish language movement and apolgists to justify their position. Ditto the cigarette companies who knew for fifty years that they were wrong but kept publishing their research. they suppressed all other research and used their budgets to buy people off. In this case the government departments and state agencies use their budgets to buy the research they want.

Again, Its not fact, its your opinion, If you want to continue your argument some sort of evidence to support your arguments would be nice.


Now I think I could come up with literally tons of research to argue against your cigarette company comparison.
And if I was so inclined to argue against a Cigarette company I would find and use that evidence rather than just look at their research and dismiss it out of hand, not because it has been twisted, but because it Could be twisted.


I dont find it in any way credible that you expect us to accept your arguments while you just ignore research that contradicts you.
If you were to show any evidence that supported your arguments, Or something to show suppression of such evidence, Or any evidence to suggest that the research I have provided has been twisted to suit a particular point of view then your arguments would gain credibility, but until then, you are about as credible as Lenihan saying 'I dont accept that'

- you have forgotten the new curriculum I told you about a few posts ago

You have forgotten the curriculum I told you were necessary a few posts ago, The so called 'reform' is no more than a sticking plaster to keep the system going for another while. It will not have any serious effect on overall outcomes as the same underlying problems are in place, Ie simply too little class time being given to spoken Irish.

- says who? I think honours maths is a lot harder for a start let alone some of the other sciences. I think Irish also gets better grades than English. Will look up the stats for you in the next few days so you can stop arguing this point (oh, I can't lose this one because the previous point can negate your arguments anyway)

Says me. Honers Maths is arguably the hardest of all, but Irish wouldent be competing with that would it, it would be competing with Business studies, Geography, History, Engineering and all the rest of the optional subjects that are generally held to be easier.

.
- 55% of the marks already awarded before June taking the pressure off, who wouldn't want that

People who will realize that they still have two papers and an aural exam to prepare for, as opposed to just one exam in all other optional subjects.

- Afraid of competition? Really? Is that not an admission of defeat. I will give you that argument

No, FG claim making it optional will promote the language, I am showing why it will not. Given that it will be held back by its curriculum and exam workload, it is not really on an even playing field.

- Nothing to stop the state requiring it to be available in all schools

See thin end of the wedge argument. Why would the state mandate that it be available in all schools? There will inevitably be a few cases where there isent enough demand for Irish to be an option. That is all it will take for such a requirement to be removed.
History is important to this debate, Last time something like this happened, When Irish was removed as a requirement for the Civil service there were promises of a 10% bonus for people with Irish, This went to 6% to gone in short order, we now have a situation where parts of the civil service has managed to have less people with Irish as a proportion of the whole than the state in general has. How this happened without active discrimination against Irish speakers is anyones guess.

deise go deo

RandomName2 wrote: »

All of the above are good reasons FOR it to be optional, with the exceptions of the point race, and a possible lack of availability of the subject.

In terms of the poor curriculum - sure, it should be fixed, but at the moment it's like saying: 'tesco's prices are outrageously high. That's a good reason to make it a monopoly'

No, Its just not a reason to vote FF,

FF and Proud. Ye had 13 years in government, ye had plenty of time to reform Irish properly, I see no reason to believe ye will next time. I will be voting Labour.

deise go deo

RandomName2 wrote: »

In terms of the poor curriculum - sure, it should be fixed, but at the moment it's like saying: 'tesco's prices are outrageously high. That's a good reason to make it a monopoly'

Not really.

Tesco would have a vested interest in keeping prices high. Your argument rely's on the Dept of Education having some sort of vested interest in teaching Irish.. Badly.

Why would they?

BlaasForRafa

Oh I have, just not in this thread. Here it is again.

For your argument to work you have to assume the only reason someone would not choose to do Irish is because they dont want to do it.

Thats a pretty good reason for making it optional

There are several factors that would influence people not to Choose Irish, even if on balance it is something they would like to learn.
-The first and most important factor is its poor curriculum, Even if you want to learn Irish, you wont learn it in the current LC course.

So you would continually FORCE kids to slog through it with its crappy curriculum? Thats a pretty incredible argument for keeping it compulsory tbh

-Languages are considered harder subjects to learn and do well in, This is a very important factor when points is such a large factor in the choices people make in the LC.

I found french to be quite easy to learn, certainly far easier than irish. That may have been due to the crappy curriculum but again its no argument for keeping it compulsory

-Irish has 7.5 hours of exams at the end of it, How many people will choose that work load when they can do a subject that has 2.5 hours of exams at the end of it for the same points.

There are other subjects with lengthy stressful exams like music. If the subject was optional then I'd assume it has a 3 hour exam like french, german etc. Why are irish supporters so afraid of letting the language stand on its own two feet? If it deserves to survive, it will survive.

-Competition, Due to Timetabling Irish will often clash with other subjects that people want to do. People may want to do Irish, But not as much as they want to do History(For example) that is timetabled at the same time in their school.

So what? I had to make a choice between physics and history, sometimes you have to make choices in life. Competition is a non argument as regards keeping irish compulsory imo.

-Irish will not be available in all schools.

Legislation can be enacted that all schools must provide irish.

On top of this, It seems clear to many people that FG's proposal is just the thin end of the wedge, In a few years time It will be the turn of the JC, few years after that, sher they dont need it for Secondary school, why should it be compulsory in Primary school.

And so what if that happened? There are plenty of gaelscoils where parents can send their kids if they want them to be immersed in irish. There are options, there is nothing to say that that kids will be forced NOT to learn irish.

deise go deo

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Thats a pretty good reason for making it optional



So you would continually FORCE kids to slog through it with its crappy curriculum? Thats a pretty incredible argument for keeping it compulsory tbh



I found french to be quite easy to learn, certainly far easier than irish. That may have been due to the crappy curriculum but again its no argument for keeping it compulsory


There are other subjects with lengthy stressful exams like music. If the subject was optional then I'd assume it has a 3 hour exam like french, german etc. Why are irish supporters so afraid of letting the language stand on its own two feet? If it deserves to survive, it will survive.




So what? I had to make a choice between physics and history, sometimes you have to make choices in life. Competition is a non argument as regards keeping irish compulsory imo.





Legislation can be enacted that all schools must provide irish.




And so what if that happened? There are plenty of gaelscoils where parents can send their kids if they want them to be immersed in irish. There are options, there is nothing to say that that kids will be forced NOT to learn irish.

Now you see, what you have done here is you have shifted the goal posts. If you care to remember, This is the question is was answering when I wrote that post.

If so many people "love" the language as you seem to think then why the paranoia about the language going extinct after it goes optional? Surely the kids will be flocking to do it if it goes optional hmmmmm?

I was not justifying it as a compulsory subject, but showing why people who would like to learn Irish would not choose it.

So while people not choosing it is not necessarily an argument against it being made optional. That is really just part of being an optional subject. It is an argument against the notion that making Irish optional will not affect people doing it. Or that it will actually promote Irish as a language.

RandomName2

deise go deo wrote: »

Not really.

Tesco would have a vested interest in keeping prices high. Your argument rely's on the Dept of Education having some sort of vested interest in teaching Irish.. Badly.

Why would they?

:P The analogy is from the CONSUMER'S point of view. Who cares what the Dept for Education thinks.

People should vote with their feet - oh wait, they can't. :pac: