Is Irish a dead language?

deise go deo

RandomName2 wrote: »

:P The analogy is from the CONSUMER'S point of view. Who cares what the Dept for Education thinks.

People should vote with their feet - oh wait, they can't. :pac:

The gist of your analogy was that making Tesco a Manopoly would not fix the problem of them having high prices.

The same argument dosent work in relation to Irish in the Education system.

the_syco

Irish is a dead language. The bastardised version we speak now, though, will live on for many more years.

deise go deo

the_syco wrote: »

Irish is a dead language. The bastardised version we speak now, though, will live on for many more years.

We? Do you include your self in that?

Irish is not dead, It is living, This is simple fact.:rolleyes:

In what way is Irish bastardised? Please provide some Examples, Their roots and of course evidience for this.

Judgement Day

the_syco wrote: »

Irish is a dead language. The bastardised version we speak now, though, will live on for many more years.

Whose this 'we'? I haven't heard a word of Irish spoken in years except on TG4's Magners League Rugby programmes - which despite learning Irish for four years I still struggle to understand.

deise go deo

Here is a very interesting article on the issue from the Irish Times

Oasis_Dublin

RandomName2 wrote: »

French is an optional subject; and at least it is spoken in several countries.

As much as I think that Latin is a very good subject I find some suggestions (mainly in England) that it become compulsory horrific! Those that like the subject, will take it anyway; those that won't (which will be the majority) will grow to absolutely hate it! Although it gives a good knowledge of the history of one's culture, it does not merit compulsion.

Doing another European language, on top of Fenianish and English was not optional (in my school at least).

deise go deo

Godge wrote: »

As for the street protests, let us know when they are on and will go along and watch.

Tá Agóid Chiúin á heagrú ag Aontas na Mac Léinn in Éirinn (USI). Beidh cruinniú oscailte le labhairt faoin agóid ag a 7 anocht, 6 Sráid Fhearchair, Baile Átha Cliath 2. Fáilte roimh éinne le suim sa bhfeachtas

A Silent Protest is being organised by the Union of Students in ireland. There will be an open meeting talking ...about the protest tonight at 7, 6 Harcourt Street, Dublin 2. Anyone interested in the campaign is more than welcome.

BlaasForRafa

deise go deo wrote: »

Here is a very interesting article on the issue from the Irish Times

No surprise that a gaelgoir would lambast Kenny :rolleyes:

Someone quoted Micky Martin in the comments section:

The Strategy is a road map for the development of the language over the next twenty years and sets out a range of new measures, including many concerning how Irish is taught, to increase the number of daily speakers of Irish to 250,000 by 2030.

A TWENTY year plan to get less than 5% of the population speaking irish at some point every day. So, irish is inflicted on the 95% for whom irish dosen't enter their daily lives just for the sake of the glorious 5%, many of whom would speak it by choice anyway.

Thats not just grossly unfair on the majority of students, its an illogical waste of taxpayer money which could be better spent on relevant languages like German, French, Chinese, Russian etc.

BlaasForRafa

deise go deo wrote: »

Tá Agóid Chiúin á heagrú ag Aontas na Mac Léinn in Éirinn (USI). Beidh cruinniú oscailte le labhairt faoin agóid ag a 7 anocht, 6 Sráid Fhearchair, Baile Átha Cliath 2. Fáilte roimh éinne le suim sa bhfeachtas

A Silent Protest is being organised by the Union of Students in ireland. There will be an open meeting talking ...about the protest tonight at 7, 6 Harcourt Street, Dublin 2. Anyone interested in the campaign is more than welcome.

I see that they had to put an english translation on the poster...probably because most people wouldn't have understood it.

deise go deo

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I see that they had to put an english translation on the poster...probably because most people wouldn't have understood it.

Its called practicing what you preach, Bilingualism.

RandomName2

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Doing another European language, on top of Fenianish and English was not optional (in my school at least).

Was the type of European language, at least, optional (German/French/Spanish?)

RandomName2

deise go deo wrote: »

The gist of your analogy was that making Tesco a Manopoly would not fix the problem of them having high prices.

The same argument dosent work in relation to Irish in the Education system.

If people were free to leave a store because of any reason, then the store in question would have to adapt or die.

If a secondary subject was losing pupils for whatever reason, then the subject in question would have to adapt or die.

At the moment people are not officially leaving Maths (because it's compulsory) but nevertheless are opting for Ordinary Level. This is a bad compromise imo
(please don't mention the high level of higher level Irish students because it's not actually relevent at the moment)

---

Kenny's suggestion to make Irish optional makes no difference if universities still insist on Irish qualifications for student entry.

Judgement Day

deise go deo wrote: »

Its called practicing what you preach, Bilingualism.

It's called a waste of time.

How about the huge waste of money on printing official publications in a bilingual format? Even something as straightforward as IE's passenger charter below is bilingual - why. It is wasteful financially and environmentally. Comment please because it is utterly indefensible especially now that the State is bankrupt.

omg a kitty

Judgement Day wrote: »

It's called a waste of time.

totally agree

Fighting Irish

deise go deo wrote: »

We? Do you include your self in that?

Irish is not dead, It is living, This is simple fact.:rolleyes:

In what way is Irish bastardised? Please provide some Examples, Their roots and of course evidience for this.

Maybe in your house

deise go deo

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Maybe in your house

Do you understand what the term 'Dead Language' Means? It has nothing to do with my house.

deise go deo

Judgement Day wrote: »

It's called a waste of time.

How about the huge waste of money on printing official publications in a bilingual format? Even something as straightforward as IE's passenger charter below is bilingual - why. It is wasteful financially and environmentally. Comment please because it is utterly indefensible especially now that the State is bankrupt.

This state has a policy of Bilingualism, That means that it provides its services in both Official languages. The reason it dose this is to support the growth of a bilingual population, this is both of benifit to the state and the individuals involved.

The state wants to promote the Irish language, They do this by useing it.
Very few people have a problem with that.

As for your claim of a huge waste of money, Can you please provide us with the figures you are basing this on?
Many countries in Europe are bilingual, it is a simple fact of life for them and shock of all, it is not a financial burden on them, It is just the way things are.

Irish is growing in This country. You will just have to get used to that.

Judgement Day

deise go deo wrote: »

This state has a policy of Bilingualism, That means that it provides its services in both Official languages. The reason it dose this is to support the growth of a bilingual population, this is both of benifit to the state and the individuals involved.

The state wants to promote the Irish language, They do this by useing it.
Very few people have a problem with that.

As for your claim of a huge waste of money, Can you please provide us with the figures you are basing this on?
Many countries in Europe are bilingual, it is a simple fact of life for them and shock of all, it is not a financial burden on them, It is just the way things are.

Irish is growing in This country. You will just have to get used to that.

I'm sure if I had all day and money to spend I could probably find out all the costs involved under the FOI. That said it is only common sense that a publication printed in two languages costs twice as much as in one language. Ditto ridiculous newspaper tender ads etc. in both languages - only people to benefit here are wealthy newspaper proprietors. In this digital age if the farce of bilingualism is to be continued with there is such a thing as 'print on demand' so that a Gaelgoir who cannot read English should be able to apply for a copy in Irish.

Talking of costs, how much has the State spent on the Irish language since 1922 -a ballpark figure will do? Of course this figure will not include the cost to children who have suffered in their general education due to spending time learning Irish instead of extra tuition in weak areas of their other subjects.

Judgement Day

Here's some interesting figures from Politics.ie from 2006:

http://www.politics.ie/culture-community/37588-brian-cowens-rhetoric-irish-language-10.html#post3293912

Here's an interesting bit of information re the costs of the Irish language. Admitedly, it's from 2006, so the figures might need some adjusting


The following is some rough research done into the cost of the Irish langauge to the state each year. Please note that the figures are only very approximate.

TG4 - 28 million [2006 budget from google]
Udaras na Gaeltachta - 36 million [2006 budget from website]
Official Languages Act - 150m [1] *
EU translation for official language - 3.5 million [3, Irish Echo]
Grants to Irish Colleges - 3.61 million [2]
Grants to Ciste na Gaeilge - 2.6 million [2]
Foras Teanga - 14 million [2]
Language Commissioner - 0.5 million [2]
Administration Costs for Irish Language in Department of CARG - 8 million [2, 50% absorption of total]

Subtotal excluding Education - 246m

Teaching Irish in Primary Schools [3] - 483m
Teaching Irish in Secondary Schools [3] - 369.6m
Teaching Irish in Third Level [3] - 30.8 mllion

Subtotal for Education - 883.4 million
Total Annual State Expenditure on Gaeilge - 1129.4 million

Total spent per head of population: 287euro
Total spent per head of population aged 19-65: 482euro
Total excl. education per head: 62 euro
Total excl. education per head of population aged 19-65: 105euro

To put in perspective relative to other state expenditures:

Defence spending per head of population: 226euro approx
Dept. of Education spending per head of population: 1630euro approx
TV license: 155euro
Social welfare for disability per head of population: 41euro
Social welfare for old age pensions per head of population: 637euro

Now to perform a cursory examination of the success of the funding.

Estimated total annual funding for Irish language: 1129.4m
Number who speak Irish as first language: 12,000 estimated
Number who speak Irish daily 71,000 [exc. schoolkids]
Number who speak Irish daily in the Gealtacht: 24,000 aprox.
Number who speak Irish daily exc. Teachers + state employees: 40,000 approx.

Annual funding per Irish first language speakers: 94,116euro
Annual funding per daily-speakers: 15,907euro
Annual funding per daily-speakers exc. teachers + state employees: 28,235euro


[1] O Cuiv claims only 10 jobs would be created as a result of the Official Languages Act, although in 2003 he said it would create 2000 jobs for Irish language speakers (this was a selling point apparently).

Seeing as every published document or correspondence (including public information disseminated by emails!) has to be translated into Irish regardless of demand in all state and semi-state bodies, it surely will cost a small fortune in labour. The government seems to be dodging releasing proper cost estimates.

Aer Lingus said that it would amount to "not a small amount of money" and said it would give them a serious competitive disadvantage.

The Irish Independent has estimated the cost at 150m. So for the purposes of argument, let us assume that figure.

[2] Annual Report, Dept of CRGA 2004 detailing Budget Estimates.

Administration costs for Irish language are asorbed at 50% [arbitrary] of total administration costs.

[3] Measuring costs of teaching Irish as 20% of primary school expenditure, and 15% of secondary school expenditure, and 2% of university expenditure based upon arbtitrary estimation of relative time spent teaching Irish.

Costs taken from 2004 Annual Report from Dept. of Education

Primary Education: 20% of 2415.9m = 483 million.
Secondary Education: 15% of 2464m = 369.6 million
Third level education: 2% of 1504m = 30.8 million

Total = 883.4 million

* The Official Languages Act figure is probably too high and it won't cost as much as was feared in some of the papers.

deise go deo

The figure from 06 has fallen quite a bit by now, Some Irish language bodies have had their funding cut seveerly, Foras na Gaeilge for Example is down by around 40%.


Anyway. The total for Irish in 2006 was 1.1billion. Or to put that in perspective, about the same as the DF costs.
Just under 2% of the budget.

omg a kitty

883 million???!!
I feel guilty doing my Irish HW now..

Focalbhach

Judgement Day wrote: »

[2] Annual Report, Dept of CRGA 2004 detailing Budget Estimates.

Administration costs for Irish language are asorbed at 50% [arbitrary] of total administration costs.

[3] Measuring costs of teaching Irish as 20% of primary school expenditure, and 15% of secondary school expenditure, and 2% of university expenditure based upon arbtitrary estimation of relative time spent teaching Irish.

Costs taken from 2004 Annual Report from Dept. of Education

Primary Education: 20% of 2415.9m = 483 million.
Secondary Education: 15% of 2464m = 369.6 million
Third level education: 2% of 1504m = 30.8 million

Total = 883.4 million

If this is meant to be a serious point I'd like something a little more substantial than arbitrary guesses. 20% of overall primary school expenditure, really?

Judgement Day

Leto wrote: »

If this is meant to be a serious point I'd like something a little more substantial than arbitrary guesses. 20% of overall primary school expenditure, really?

It's not to be anything more than to point out in a general way the vast, pointless spending of huge sums of money on a language that is best kept for the reservations Gaeltachts.

Sponge Bob

Judgement Day wrote: »

Here's an interesting bit of information re the costs of the Irish language.

I does be fierce worried about the maths and english aspects of that so I does, that and the lack of linkage.

I shudder to think of what the Inner City and social housing zones in Limercik City and of Dublin City cost us..and our tolerance of what passes for English among the denizens of those places together with the horrendous expenditures incurred in housing, social welfare, extra teaching resources in schools and extra school capitation for students and law enforcement and hospital provision proves to me that Dublin and Limerick are simply failed social experiments that deliver absolutely nothing....never mind conversational English

Shall I get some numbers and link them to show what a costly disaster our tolerance of skangers and of the agglutinous aryepiglottic mutation that passes for the English language in those parts costs us all every year then ??? :cool:

And yet nobody wants to cross the road from the department of education in Marlborough street ( and its "Model School" ) and to look at this expensive and failed experiment in the heart of dear old Dublin

Our prison service alone costs €400m a year of which €300m is a direct subsidy to Dublin and Limerick from law abiding parts of the state ( the other 25% of prisoners are seemingly not from Dublin or Limerick) ....can we not just cut it back and LET them kill each other.

Judgement Day

So Sponge Bob just because money is being wasted on a myriad of other things such as 'skangers', local authority housing estates etc. means that we should also waste it on the Irish language - don't really see your point.

Sponge Bob

Judgement Day wrote: »

don't really see your point.

My point is that your point, even if lifted off politics.ie, is rubbish. There is no way that 20% of the Primary schools budget is spent on Irish and you of all people should have spotted that before you posted.

Irish is a secondary language in most schools and the primary in a minority where Irish is the normal language of instruction.

Unlike that gob****e on politics.ie I can find hard data and link it. The normal ( classes 1-6 school week is 28 Hours 30 mins for all activities including Language 2 or L2 . The allocation for Irish is therefore 3 hours and 30 mins out of that 28 hours and 30 mins. Source National Primary School Curriculum Page 78 numbered as "70"

That is 12% of school time.

I would have expected you to be able to do your own research JD, don't uncritically post shopping lists of tripe from Politics.ie in future please.

The 12% of school time in an average school does not take into account the EXTRA supports given generally ONLY to URBAN schools for teaching ENGLISH and therefore 12% of an average teacher does not mean 12% of National primary school resources but more like 10% Nationally ...and that assuming that all teachers teach the full curriculum as contracted which is not the actual case.

As these Urban areas are invariably ENGLISH speaking...or what passes for English in Limerick and Sheriff Street and Tallaght...... the EXTRA supports given to this class of school is in ACTUAL fact a subsidy skewed towards ENGLISH...irrespective or the educational outcome which is generally dire.

Furthermore they are not expected to teach Irish in those schools so add the 10% National Nominal Irish teaching budget to the ENGLISH budget and deduct from the National figure.

But in listening to the abject failure of the natives of much of Dublin to approximate their gruntings to what generally passes for the English language one clearly discerns an abject failure of purpose and misallocation of resources. And yet this ongoing and abject failure gets no attention nationally....well maybe it does when they burn Broombridge station out again.

Focalbhach

Judgement Day wrote: »

It's not to be anything more than to point out in a general way the vast, pointless spending of huge sums of money on a language that is best kept for the reservations Gaeltachts.

The pointlessness (or otherwise) and the appropriate location for the language are matters of opinion.

The amount of money spent is, in theory, a matter of fact. If we're going to talk about it by throwing out guesses framed as precise-looking numbers, it's worth remembering that lots of people skim a post, see a number, take it at face value, give it legs, and repeat it. With that in mind, I'm not sure what value is added by such dodgy figures.

(I do recognise that caveats were given in the original post, which is fair enough. Maybe I'm the only one who read it all the way to the end! )

Focalbhach

Sponge Bob wrote: »

That is 12% of school time.

...which, lest we forget, is not the same as school expenditure.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

The figure from 06 has fallen quite a bit by now, Some Irish language bodies have had their funding cut seveerly, Foras na Gaeilge for Example is down by around 40%

and by your own account, Use Of Irish Is Increasing....maybe if we slash Irish funding more, this will will lead to More People Speaking Irish?

Oasis_Dublin

RandomName2 wrote: »

Was the type of European language, at least, optional (German/French/Spanish?)

I did not have a choice as to whether I did a European language or not. I had a choice between them but that's like being asked do you want to be Chinese water tortured or electric shock tortured.