Is Irish a dead language?

Oasis_Dublin

I would have assumed you meant, "is tír gan teanga, tír gan anam!"

sceptre

An accurate translation in English should be included (read as "typed" for the sake of those who would split hairs for the sake of splitting hairs) with the Irish text. Anything else is, frankly, acting the plonker, I have no time for it and there's little room for acting the plonker here - this isn't the acting disruptive for the sake of it forum, even if the occasional person would like it to be so. Google translate isn't good enough to provide an accurate translation and it's up to the forum member to do so themselves by including their accurate translation in their original post.

If you have any issues with this, I suggest taking them to me by PM, whereupon in this case I will immediately suggest that you take it to the Dispute Resolution forum for consideration by the cmods and (another) admin. I really don't have any time for plonkerism.

aidan24326

Is Irish a dead language?

-No.

Has it outlived any useful purpose to the wider population?

-Undeniably yes.

I would very much agree with FGs policy that Irish should not be compulsory all the way to LC level. Make it compulsory up to JC level and then anyone who's interested can have the option to study it at LC level if they want to, in the same way they would choose French or German. Scrap the requirement for LC Irish to get into College, this rule is utterly stupid and serves no purpose. I really think that's a reasonable compromise to both sides, you're retaining the language as a significant part of the school curriculum but without forcing it on LC students who are no longer interested or would rather choose something more useful.

cyclopath2001

aidan24326 wrote:

I would very much agree with FGs policy that Irish should not be compulsory all the way to LC level. Make it compulsory up to JC level

why make it compulsory for children who are native English speakers and who, for the most part will never, ever, speak it? Sounds like 'flogging a dead horse' to me.

Would the time not be better spent learning a more useful language? This would also free up resources teaching those who wish to learn Irish.

The whole compulsion thing is as outdated as the odious 'Tir gan Teanga' nonsense.

seriouslysweet

Irish isn't difficult to learn, some people are just too stupid or lazy to try. Not learning it is their business but blaming everyone and anything for not learning it makes then look even more stupid.

Judgement Day

seriouslysweet wrote: »

Irish isn't difficult to learn, some people are just too stupid or lazy to try. Not learning it is their business but blaming everyone and anything for not learning it makes then look even more stupid.

:rolleyes:

deise go deo

Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny said that his party is to conduct an 'audit' of the curriculum and the structure of the curriculum and that the proposed policy will not be implemented until after the completion of such an audit.

The party also propose to examine the points structure for Irish in the leaving and plan to look at introducing a new subject ' Gaeilge agus Cumarsáid', according to Mr Kenny.

The back peddling begins.:)


Most Irish People Oppose ‘Crazy’ Fine Gael Policy On Language

Cú Giobach

Expressions from around the world:

Hep brezhoneg, breizh ebet (Breton)
Without Breton there is no Brittany

Nyelvében él a nemzet. (Hungarian)
The nation lives through its language.

Am fear a chailleas a chanain caillidh e a shaoghal. (Scots Gaelic)
He who loses his language loses his world.

Bahasa menunjukkan bangsa. (Indonesian)
Language represents the nation.

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam. (Irish)
A country without a language is a country without a soul.

Bahasa jiwa bangsa. (Malay)
Language is the soul of a race.

Gyn çhengey, gyn çheer (Manx)
No language, no country

Toku reo toku ohōho. (Māori)
My Language, my awakening.

Cenedl heb iaith, cenedl heb galon. (Welsh)
A nation without a language is a nation without a heart.

Ang hindi magmahal sa sariling wika ay higit pa sa hayop at malansang isda. (Tagalog)
Those who know not how to love their own language are worse than an animal and a smelly fish.

aDeener

MysticalRain wrote: »

If the public really supported the language, they would be speaking it.

yes because when they say they do support it, they are in fact lying....

RandomName2

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Expressions from around the world:

Hep brezhoneg, breizh ebet (Breton)
Without Breton there is no Brittany

Nyelvében él a nemzet. (Hungarian)
The nation lives through its language.

Am fear a chailleas a chanain caillidh e a shaoghal. (Scots Gaelic)
He who loses his language loses his world.

Bahasa menunjukkan bangsa. (Indonesian)
Language represents the nation.

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam. (Irish)
A country without a language is a country without a soul.

Bahasa jiwa bangsa. (Malay)
Language is the soul of a race.

Gyn çhengey, gyn çheer (Manx)
No language, no country

Toku reo toku ohōho. (Māori)
My Language, my awakening.

Cenedl heb iaith, cenedl heb galon. (Welsh)
A nation without a language is a nation without a heart.

Ang hindi magmahal sa sariling wika ay higit pa sa hayop at malansang isda. (Tagalog)
Those who know not how to love their own language are worse than an animal and a smelly fish.

We have a language.

*HINT*: I'm writing in it.

aDeener

RandomName2 wrote: »

We have a language.

*HINT*: I'm writing in it, in an extremely obnoxious and condescending manner

fyp

Cú Giobach

RandomName2 wrote: »

I have a language.

*HINT*: I'm writing in it.

FYP too.

RandomName2

aDeener wrote: »

fyp

Is it not extremely obnoxious and condescending to say that there is no extant culture here in the English language. That if it is not 'As Gaeilge' then it is not Irish? That our nationalism has to be tied to a language which we predominantly do not use, speak, or know?

Is that not condescending?

And Cú Giobach are you really saying you do not have English? Is it physically paining you to have to write in this forum in a foreign language? Are you waiting for the revolution...

Of the list of Irish writers on wikipedia A-D how many of them write As Gailge?




John Banim (1798–1842)
Sebastian Barry (born 1955)
Samuel Beckett (1906–1989)
Brendan Behan (1923–1964)
George A. Birmingham (1865-1950)
Dermot Bolger (born 1959)
Dion Boucicault (1820–1890)
Ian Adam Bryan
Colm Byrne (born 1971)
Lucy Caldwell (born 1981)
Marina Carr (born 1964)
Paul Vincent Carroll (1900–1968)
Austin Clarke (1896–1974)
Padraic Colum (1881–1972)
William Congreve (1670–1729)
James Cousins (1873–1956)
Anne Devlin (writer) (born 1951)
Roddy Doyle (born 1958)
Gary Duggan (born 1979)
Lord Dunsany (1878–1957)

Obviously they had no language either.

Cú Giobach

RandomName2 wrote: »

And Cú Giobach are you really saying you do not have English?

Hmmm...Since I didn't say or even hint at that then....No, I didn't say that I don't have English. (can you read English).

Is it physically paining you to have to write in this forum in a foreign language? Are you waiting for the revolution...

Since I speak and write English perfectly well, again No.

If your English was up to scratch you wouldn't have to ask such questions because you would have been able to read and understand what I actually wrote.

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

The back peddling begins.:)


Most Irish People Oppose ‘Crazy’ Fine Gael Policy On Language

Yet most can't speak it and of those who can, a large chunk are nowhere near as fluent as they are in English or as fluent as they should be for a native growing language. Lip service again. Standard Operating Procedure for the state of the Irish language.

aidan24326

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

why make it compulsory for children who are native English speakers and who, for the most part will never, ever, speak it? Sounds like 'flogging a dead horse' to me.

Would the time not be better spent learning a more useful language? This would also free up resources teaching those who wish to learn Irish.

The whole compulsion thing is as outdated as the odious 'Tir gan Teanga' nonsense.

It's not going to be scrapped outright, so I suppose as a sop to the pro-language brigade I suggested keeping it compulsory to JC Level. But I agree with you in principle that it probably should just be an optional subject altogether, since its usefulness value is questionable at best.

There is so much hypocrisy here though, I'll bet a lot of the people decrying Enda Kenny's comments and expressing their 'horror' at his suggestion can't (and certainly don't) even speak the bloody language themselves. 'Keep the language alive blah rabble blah!!' ok then start speaking it yourself, every day.

RandomName2

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Hmmm...Since I didn't say or even hint at that then....No, I didn't say that I don't have English. (can you read English).



Since I speak and write English perfectly well, again No.

If your English was up to scratch you wouldn't have to ask such questions because you would have been able to read and understand what I actually wrote.

I was wondering if you were going to come at it from that angle. Let's see:

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Hep brezhoneg, breizh ebet (Breton)
Without Breton there is no Brittany

Nyelvében él a nemzet. (Hungarian)
The nation lives through its language.

Am fear a chailleas a chanain caillidh e a shaoghal. (Scots Gaelic)
He who loses his language loses his world.

Bahasa menunjukkan bangsa. (Indonesian)
Language represents the nation.

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam. (Irish)
A country without a language is a country without a soul.

Bahasa jiwa bangsa. (Malay)
Language is the soul of a race.

Gyn çhengey, gyn çheer (Manx)
No language, no country

Toku reo toku ohōho. (Māori)
My Language, my awakening.

Cenedl heb iaith, cenedl heb galon. (Welsh)
A nation without a language is a nation without a heart.

Ang hindi magmahal sa sariling wika ay higit pa sa hayop at malansang isda. (Tagalog)
Those who know not how to love their own language are worse than an animal and a smelly fish.

This is what we might term an occupatio - highlighting something whilst pretending to pass over it.

You weren't saying any of the above, just 'quoting sayings from around the world.'

Gerrof! :rolleyes:

----

As for fixing my post by changing me from saying that we speak English to 'I' speak English; thus insinuating that English isn't our language and that I am crazy for suggesting it is, is itself just annoying due to its primary motivation being the politicisation of language.

Surprised you didn't quote ETA tbh.

Cú Giobach

RandomName2 wrote: »

I was wondering if you were going to come at it from that angle. Let's see:................

This is what we might term an occupatio - highlighting something whilst pretending to pass over it.

You weren't saying any of the above, just 'quoting sayings from around the world.'

Gerrof! :rolleyes:

Re read the thread.

----

As for fixing my post by changing me from saying that we speak English to 'I' speak English; thus insinuating that English isn't our language and that I am crazy for suggesting it is, is itself just annoying due to its primary motivation being the politicisation of language.

Whether or not you like or accept it English is one of the languages of this Island not the language of the island.
When you use the word "we" when referring to the Irish people you are referring to all the people, since English is not the first language of all the Irish people then the word "I" would be more appropriate (especially when you are conversing with people who actually speak Irish).

Surprised you didn't quote ETA tbh.

Why on earth would I want to do that?

RandomName2

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Whether or not you like or accept it English is one of the languages of this Island not the language of the island.
When you use the word "we" when referring to the Irish people you are referring to all the people, since English is not the first language of all the Irish people then the word "I" would be more appropriate (especially when you are conversing with people who actually speak Irish).

Whether or not you like or accept it English is predominantly the language of the Island not a secondary language.

Unless, of course, when you said

'Those who know not how to love their own language are worse than an animal and a smelly fish'

You were referring to those who don't know how to love English?

Cú Giobach

RandomName2 wrote: »

Whether or not you like or accept it English is predominantly the language of the Island not a secondary language.

So what? That doesn't change the fact that it is still one of the languages not the language (and this will be so for many years to come).

eoinbn

deise go deo wrote: »

The back peddling begins.:)


Most Irish People Oppose ‘Crazy’ Fine Gael Policy On Language

I would like to know the details of that 'poll'- who was polled, where and what was asked. For example if the question was-"Fine Gael want to endanger the Irish language by removing it from the Leaving Cert on a compulsory basis, do you agree or disagree with Fine Gael on this matter?"

Now given that we are in the middle of a general election campaign anyone that isn't voting FG(which is oddly very close to 61%) will probably disagree with FG on everything and thing!

Also the key point is that at least 39% don't want compulsory Irish yet an 'Irish elite' will focus them to learn it anyway! I really don't see the logic of forcing hundreds of thousands of people to learn something that isn't of use AND that they have no interest in. It doesn't benefit them and it certainly doesn't benefit their fellow classmates that are been held back by disinterested students.

RandomName2

Cú Giobach wrote: »

So what? That doesn't change the fact that it is still one of the languages not the language (and this will be so for many years to come).

But you were insinuating the opposite: that Irish is the language of Ireland.

If anything is going to be given the term the - it will be that which possesses an absolute majority.

And yes: 'we' speak English. There isn't an Irish citizen that cannot speak it. It is the thing that binds us together - it is the lowest common denominator. The same can not be said of Gaeilge.

RandomName2

eoinbn wrote: »

I would like to know the details of that 'poll'- who was polled, where and what was asked. For example if the question was-"Fine Gael want to endanger the Irish language by removing it from the Leaving Cert on a compulsory basis, do you agree or disagree with Fine Gael on this matter?"

Now given that we are in the middle of a general election campaign anyone that isn't voting FG(which is oddly very close to 61%) will probably disagree with FG on everything and thing!

Also the key point is that at least 39% don't want compulsory Irish yet an 'Irish elite' will focus them to learn it anyway! I really don't see the logic of forcing hundreds of thousands of people to learn something that isn't of use AND that they have no interest in. It doesn't benefit them and it certainly doesn't benefit their fellow classmates that are been held back by disinterested students.

I noticed that too! No numbers given, at all! And the fact that it is being used on that link, merely as electoral buzzwords by the Labour party doesn't add much to the poll's validity (which was initiated, albeit not conducted, by an entirely biased body).

Cú Giobach

RandomName2 wrote: »

But you were insinuating the opposite: that Irish is the language of Ireland.

If anything is going to be given the term the - it will be that which possesses an absolute majority.

And yes: 'we' speak English. There isn't an Irish citizen that cannot speak it. It is the thing that binds us together - it is the lowest common denominator. The same can not be said of Gaeilge.

Why in a country with two languages should one be dismissed as irrelevant and the other be given the label of "the language"?
In any thread here on the Irish language I have never said anything other than Ireland has two languages, one of which is only spoken by a minority.
Unlike some people posting here I have respect for both of them.
From your posts it would seem you can't actually understand that it is possible to have a grá for the Irish language and not be anti or dismissive of the English.


On the topic of polls, I find it interesting that the even though every single poll mentioned is dismissed as biased not one person can find one that shows the opposite.
Even all the AH polls show the same as the official ones.
Take a hint folks.

deise go deo

Dissent in FG

Enda is coming under pressure from within FG to rethink his approch to Irish in the LC. His policy is loosing FG votes and FG's candidates relize that.


FG it seams however is still unsure of what it plans to do,

Cllr Séan Kyne in Galway said: 'We understood that the party policy on this was to conduct a review and consult with stakeholders before making a final decision'


However James Reilly TD has come out and promised that Irish will be made optional if FG get into Government. Nasc

Enda has promised an audit, however if James Reilly TD is to be believed then the Conclusion has been reached before the consultation begins.


The question remains, Why are FG playing such silly buggers on this issue.:rolleyes:

Judgement Day

I find it difficult to believe that the paltry number of votes FG will lose for their stance on the language will have any material effect on the election result. They should go for removing it from the curriculum altogether - I might even give them a vote then.



VOTE MICK WALLACE No.1. AND NO OTHER CANDIDATE

aidan24326

deise go deo wrote: »

The question remains, Why are FG playing such silly buggers on this issue.:rolleyes:

Well, we are in the middle of an election campaign, and what a politician says he will do before an election, and what he actually does after it, bear only the scantest relation to each other. So I'd take everything they're saying with a pinch of salt to be honest.

deise go deo

aidan24326 wrote: »

Well, we are in the middle of an election campaign, and what a politician says he will do before an election, and what he actually does after it, bear only the scantest relation to each other. So I'd take everything they're saying with a pinch of salt to be honest.

I know, But it is reaching ridiculus levels, Kenny is disrupting FG's Election campaign with a policy on Irish that is based on nothing more than his opinion, There is no evidience to back it up.

He is loosing votes for FG and for no particular reason.:rolleyes:

aidan24326

deise go deo wrote: »

I know, But it is reaching ridiculus levels, Kenny is disrupting FG's Election campaign with a policy on Irish that is based on nothing more than his opinion, There is no evidience to back it up.

He is loosing votes for FG and for no particular reason.:rolleyes:

I'll agree it was a somewhat odd thing for him to start banging on about now, since it's not exactly the kind of vote-grabbing spoofery* you normally hear them coming out with at election time.

*you know, 500 more teachers, 4 new hospitals etc.

deise go deo

aidan24326 wrote: »

I'll agree it was a somewhat odd thing for him to start banging on about now, since it's not exactly the kind of vote-grabbing spoofery* you normally hear them coming out with at election time.

*you know, 500 more teachers, 4 new hospitals etc.

Enda must have taught it would be a vote winner. As you can see in this thread, there are people who would be only to happy for Irish to be down graded.

However it seams that it has back fired. It was back in 05 when Kenny first came up with the Idea of making Irish optional in Second Level,
Enda is still trying to get this (Watered down version) idea through but oppisition to it is just growing.