Is Irish a dead language?

cyclopath2001 · 10-02-2011 6:00pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Why in a country with two languages should one be dismissed as irrelevant and the other be given the label of "the

that is a question that should have crossed your mind when you quoted the various international versions of the Tir Gan Teanga nonsense.

But, lest we forget, it was Deise, and not you who hurled this cultural grenade and ran away.

Irish is directly relevant to those who wish to speak it and the country would be culturally poorer without such enthusiasts. But, it must be acknowledged that much of our cultural wealth comes from English speakers.

astrofool · 10-02-2011 6:14pm

You've got to love the optimism (and I quote):

"The meeting acknowledged there were “problems” with the teaching of Irish in schools, but said the 20-year Irish language strategy, published late last year, would address this."

So the 80 year plan has failed, and the 20 year plan will now succeed. Of course all those unionised teachers will go along with their plans as well, and we'll force the shrinking gaeltacht children back into the language too.

deise go deo · 10-02-2011 6:46pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

that is a question that should have crossed your mind when you quoted the various international versions of the Tir Gan Teanga nonsense.

But, lest we forget, it was Deise, and not you who hurled this cultural grenade and ran away.

Irish is directly relevant to those who wish to speak it and the country would be culturally poorer without such enthusiasts. But, it must be acknowledged that much of our cultural wealth comes from English speakers.

I dident say 'Tír gan Teanga, Tír gan Anam' Which means a country with out a language is a country without a soul.

I said 'Tír gan Deis, Tír gan Teanga' Which means a country without oppertunities(to use a language), will be a country without that language.

As for the rest of your post, I agree, that is actually the sanest thing you have said in a long time.

Now what you must understand is that

a) The aim is Bi-Lingualism, No one want Irish to Replace English.

and

b) Irish can have relevance to the lives of people who dont use it as their primary means of communication.

cyclopath2001 · 10-02-2011 7:03pm

deise go deo wrote: »

I said 'Tír gan Deis, Tír gan Teanga' Which means a country without oppertunities(to use a language), will be a country without that language.

That's not an accurate translation. What you said was literally: 'Country without a chance, country without a language'. This of course, is nonsense.

deise go deo wrote: »

No one want Irish to Replace English.

It is the primary objective of Conradh na Gaeilge to make Irish the common language of Ireland. Check their website.

deise go deo wrote: »

b) Irish can have relevance to the lives of people who dont use it as their primary means of communication.

It is certainly relevant to how much tax they must pay and to when their children are compelled to learn it.

deise go deo · 10-02-2011 7:33pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That's not an accurate translation. What you said was literally: 'Country without a chance, country without a language'. This of course, is nonsense.

The word 'deis' translates as oppertunity.

Focal.ie

A word for word literal translation of 'Tír gan Deis, Tír Gan Teanga' is:

Country without Oppertunity, Country without language.

As what I said is clearly based on the phrase 'Tír gan teanga, Tír gan Anam' then anyone translating what I said will naturally follow the normal form used for translating that.

Thus the translation would be rendered:

A country without an oppertunity is a country without a language.

Given that I was talking about oppertunities for Using Irish when I used the phrase 'Tír gan Deis, Tír gan Teanga' then the context for the word oppertunity is the context of Oppertunity to use a Language.

This gives the meaning that I translated it as.

A country without an oppertunity(to use a language) will be a country without that language.

I would like to know on what basis you are challenging the translation I provided.

MysticalRain · 10-02-2011 7:36pm

aDeener wrote: »

yes because when they say they do support it, they are in fact lying....

They support Irish in the same way someone might claim to support safe driving while continuing to to break the speed limit.

Cú Giobach · 10-02-2011 8:04pm

MysticalRain wrote: »

They support Irish in the same way someone might claim to support safe driving while continuing to to break the speed limit.

A better and more realistic analogy would be someone who can't drive supporting safe driving measures.

Your analogy would be like someone campaigning for the abandonment of the language and claiming to support it.

MysticalRain · 10-02-2011 8:06pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

A better and more realistic analogy would be someone who can't drive supporting safe driving.

That analogy would only hold water for people who are deaf and mute.

Cú Giobach · 10-02-2011 8:23pm

MysticalRain wrote: »

That analogy would only hold water for people who are deaf and mute.

Why? Please do elaborate.
The majority may not speak Irish but they want to keep it in school and don't seem to have a problem with the government spending money on it, that is actually doing something to keep the language alive. Therefore they can state quite rightly they support the language.
Your analogy would only hold true if people were against these measures yet claimed to support the language, which is not the situation.

MysticalRain · 10-02-2011 8:59pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Why? Please do elaborate.
The majority may not speak Irish but they want to keep it in school and don't seem to have a problem with the government spending money on it, that is actually doing something to keep the language alive. Therefore they can state quite rightly they support the language.
Your analogy would only hold true if people were against these measures yet claimed to support the language, which is not the situation.

I think you're confusing genuine support for the language with a bunch of people paying lipservice to it. Sort of like how many Irish people claim to be for a United Ireland, yet would not be prepared to fight for it, pay extra taxes to fund it, or at the very least vote for political parties that agitate for it.

I think you know as well as anybody here that real change does not come from sitting back and expecting the government to change things by throwing money and resources at something. Real change comes from the bottom up when people act on a genuine desire to make a personal impact. Not waiting around for the government change things for them.

In this case, it would mean that at least several hundred thousand people would have to get up off their arses and start speaking the language in an every day setting in order to keep the language alive. Otherwise a genuinely bilingual society is just never going to happen. So keep dreaming.

cyclopath2001 · 10-02-2011 9:18pm

deise go deo wrote: »

I would like to know on what basis you are challenging the translation I provided.

In what dictionary did you find the word 'oppertunity'?

deise go deo · 10-02-2011 9:55pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

In what dictionary did you find the word 'opportunity'?

This one:

Focal.ie

It is considered to be the best terminalogy dictionary online. You will find the same in every dictionary.

So do you retract your claim that my translation was inaccurate?

cyclopath2001 · 10-02-2011 10:28pm

deise go deo wrote: »

This one:

Focal.ie

It is considered to be the best terminalogy dictionary online. You will find the same in every dictionary.

So do you retract your claim that my translation was inaccurate?

I checked, the word 'oppertunity' does not appear there. Thus is not surprising, as there is no such word. I have no idea where you found it.

Do you retract your entirely false statement that nobody is seeking to replace English?

Cú Giobach · 10-02-2011 10:28pm

MysticalRain wrote: »

I think you're confusing genuine support for the language with a bunch of people paying lipservice to it. Sort of like how many Irish people claim to be for a United Ireland, yet would not be prepared to fight for it, pay extra taxes to fund it, or at the very least vote for political parties that agitate for it.

Fighting for a UI is not the way to go.
The Germans paid for unification why wouldn't we.
All mainstream political parties are for it and I wonder how a party would do if it came out and said it was against it.

I think you know as well as anybody here that real change does not come from sitting back and expecting the government to change things by throwing money and resources at something. Real change comes from the bottom up when people act on a genuine desire to make a personal impact. Not waiting around for the government change things for them.

That is why people are calling for more and in many cases paying for or setting up Gaelscoileanna themselves.
People are also setting up cultural groups across the Island.
People are doing it for themselves.

In this case, it would mean that at least several hundred thousand people would have to get up off their arses and start speaking the language in an every day setting in order to keep the language alive. Otherwise a genuinely bilingual society is just never going to happen.

Learning a language is quite hard and time consuming and the majority of people don't have time to do it.
What they can do is ensure their children learn it and this is what is happening, the number of gaelscoileanna is far below demand and has been increasing for years, people also want to keep the language taught in school.
The Irish language turned a corner recently (ie over the last 20 odd years) and is no longer looked on as "something from the bogs" this will continue and I do believe this country will be something like Wales in the future, that is the language instead of just being confined to the gaeltachts will be spoken more in the general population.
The thing to look at here is the trend where things like the Irish language and music instead of being looked at as old and backward are now seen as things to be proud of and this trend shows no sign of changing.
So keep dreaming in your little Hibernophobic world the rest of us will leave you far behind stuck in the 20th century.

Focalbhach · 10-02-2011 10:38pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I checked, the word 'oppertunity' does not appear there. Thus is not surprising, as there is no such word. I have no idea where you found it.

He's right. Deis = opportunity. Can that put an end to this particular line of enquiry?

MysticalRain · 10-02-2011 10:57pm

Fighting for a UI is not the way to go.
The Germans paid for unification why wouldn't we.

The difference is Germany is a rich country. We are not. Even Germany struggled with reunification costs. We are likely to be broke for the next 10-20 years regardless.

All mainstream political parties are for it and I wonder how a party would do if it came out and said it was against it.

It would hardly make a difference really. Most people vote in elections based on economic reasons. A United Ireland only appeals to a hardcore minority. It's not like FF suffered a backlash when they presided over removing the territorial claim to the 6 counties from our Constitution.

That is why people are calling for more and in many cases paying for or setting up Gaelscoileanna themselves.
People are also setting up cultural groups across the Island.
People are doing it for themselves.

That great. I think that's far more beneficial to the language then forcing it down people's throats.

Learning a language is quite hard and time consuming and the majority of people don't have time to do it.

If people really want to, they can make time. I know plenty of people who do. Learning a language is hardly more time-consuming than other activities.

What they can do is ensure their children learn it and this is what is happening, the number of gaelscoileanna is far below demand and has been increasing for years, people also want to keep the language taught in school.

As has been pointed out already, demand for primary schools, and some of the better secondary schools, is quite high to begin with whether they are gaelscoileanna or not. There probably is a ceiling on the number of Gaelscoileanna that can be set up because eventually you start to run out of teachers who are proficient enough at speaking Irish.

The Irish language turned a corner recently (ie over the last 20 odd years) and is no longer looked on as "something from the bogs" this will continue and I do believe this country will be something like Wales in the future, that is the language instead of just being confined to the gaeltachts will be spoken more in the general population.

I am from the bogs myself, being a born and bred Kerryman. I can't say I have ever had an inferiority complex about being from a slightly wetter and spongier part of the country than someone else. Besides, I tend to associate Gaelscoileanna with upper class D4 elitists myself.

So keep dreaming in your little Hibernophobic world the rest of us will leave you far behind stuck in the 20th century.

Ah yes, the narrowminded, xenophobic "West Brit" argument rears it's ugly head again. I thought we had consigned that to the dustbin of history? And you wonder why some people are turned off the language?

cyclopath2001 · 10-02-2011 11:13pm

Leto wrote: »

He's right. Deis = opportunity. Can that put an end to this particular line of enquiry?

He said repeatedly it means 'oppertunity', not 'opportunity' and that got this hitherto unknown English word from a reputable online dictionary.

'chance' would also be a valid translation, but this would mean that 'deise' means 'chancer'.

deise go deo · 10-02-2011 11:26pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I checked, the word 'oppertunity' does not appear there. Thus is not surprising, as there is no such word. I have no idea where you found it.

:rolleyes:

Do you retract your entirely false statement that nobody is seeking to replace English?

I will not, I said that I will talk to CnaG about it and ask them to clarify their position and I will.

deise go deo · 10-02-2011 11:28pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

He said repeatedly it means 'oppertunity', not 'opportunity' and that got this hitherto unknown English word from a reputable online dictionary.

'chance' would also be a valid translation, but this would mean that 'deise' means 'chancer'.

:rolleyes:

This is childish.

Chance is not a valid translation of the word deis in that context.

Déise means Waterford.

Cú Giobach · 10-02-2011 11:29pm

MysticalRain wrote: »

The difference is Germany is a rich country. We are not. Even Germany struggled with reunification costs. We are likely to be broke for the next 10-20 years regardless.

If you want to compare things financially then the north is not quite communist East Germany and not some financial black hole, it is in fact a well developed modern province that would actually be an asset not a liability.

It would hardly make a difference really. Most people vote in elections based on economic reasons. A United Ireland only appeals to a hardcore minority. It's not like FF suffered a backlash when they presided over removing the territorial claim to the 6 counties from our Constitution.

The reality of the situation will be seen in the (near?) future.

That great. I think that's far more beneficial to the language then forcing it down people's throats.

Good.

If people really want to, they can make time. I know plenty of people who do. Learning a language is hardly more time-consuming than other activities.

Very naive attitude that does not take the day to day reality of peoples lives into account or what learning a language as an adult actually involves.

As has been pointed out already, demand for primary schools, and some of the better secondary schools, is quite high to begin with whether they are gaelscoileanna or not. There probably is a ceiling on the number of Gaelscoileanna that can be set up because eventually you start to run out of teachers who are proficient enough at speaking Irish.

The very fact that gaelscoileanna are around and popular makes my point for me.
We do live by the laws of demand and supply, as teaching posts are needed so they will gradually be filled, probably by past pupils of the gaelscoileanna.

I am from the bogs myself, being a born and bred Kerryman. I can't say I have ever had an inferiority complex about being from a slightly wetter and spongier part of the country than someone else. Besides, I tend to associate Gaelscoileanna with upper class D4 elitists myself.

I was talking about a general attitude that has changed dramatically since I was at school and shows no sign of reversing.
Pity you can't respond to the point instead of this comment on the climatic conditions of Kerry.
If thats how you view the gaelscoil movement then you obviously don't really know much about it.

Ah yes, the narrowminded, xenophobic "West Brit" argument rears it's ugly head again. I thought we had consigned that to the dustbin of history? And you wonder why some people are turned off the language?

You have made your attitudes very clear on this board before, and the best word for that attitude is that very one I used.

MysticalRain · 10-02-2011 11:48pm

The reality of the situation will be seen in the (near?) future.

West Germany wasn't an economic basket case in 1989. Our Republic on the other hand is going to be lucky if we can run our own state of affairs, never mind six more counties.

The reality of the situation will be seen in the (near?) future.

Well unless FF or SF managed to pull a rabbit out of hat, it's looking like the least nationalist parties in the Irish political system are destined to take power in a landslide.

Very naive attitude that does not take the day to day reality of peoples lives into account or what learning a language as an adult actually involves.

Oh really? Maybe I should just ask my father, who has been diligently re-learning Irish during the last several years, how he manages to do it. I've done plenty of learning in my own personal time as far as career development is concerned.So it's not like I don't know how to make time for these things myself.

The very fact that gaelscoileanna are around and popular makes my point for me.
We do live by the laws of demand and supply, as teaching posts are needed so they will gradually be filled, probably by past pupils of the gaelscoileanna.

Correlation is not causation. There are a lot of factors at play here.

I was talking about a general attitude that has changed dramatically since I was at school and shows no sign of reversing.
Pity you can't respond to the point instead of this comment on the climatic conditions of Kerry.
If thats how you view the gaelscoil movement then you obviously don't really know much about it.

Well unless you can cite some statistics here, you are engagin in pure conjecture based on your own anecdotal evidence.

You have made your attitudes very clear on this board before, and the best word for that attitude is that very one I used.

I obviously didn't make them clear enough if you continue to have that mistaken impression.

Focalbhach · 11-02-2011 12:21am

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

He said repeatedly it means 'oppertunity', not 'opportunity' and that got this hitherto unknown English word from a reputable online dictionary.

I don't think you're doing yourself any favours.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

'chance' would also be a valid translation

Yes: 'chance' as a synonym for 'opportunity'. Good to know there was never any actual confusion.

Godge · 11-02-2011 12:26am

deise go deo wrote: »

I know, But it is reaching ridiculus levels, Kenny is disrupting FG's Election campaign with a policy on Irish that is based on nothing more than his opinion, There is no evidience to back it up.

He is loosing votes for FG and for no particular reason.:rolleyes:

Keep repeating it and it may come true.

He was won my vote. Have never given FG a number 1 before in over 20 years of voting and was wavering between FG and Labour so he is up at least one vote of the silent majority.

Cú Giobach · 11-02-2011 12:33am

MysticalRain wrote: »

West Germany wasn't an economic basket case in 1989. Our Republic on the other hand is going to be lucky if we can run our own state of affairs, never mind six more counties.

I don't think a UI is on the cards for a while and the current economic climate isn't going to last forever (hopefully).
It's interesting you seem to think the north will be a liability not an asset.

Well unless FF or SF managed to pull a rabbit out of hat, it's looking like the least nationalist parties in the Irish political system are destined to take power in a landslide.

But they are not anti, which is the point.

Oh really? Maybe I should just ask my father, who has been diligently re-learning Irish during the last several years, how he manages to do it. I've done plenty of learning in my own personal time as far as career development is concerned.So it's not like I don't know how to make time for these things myself.

So, you are stating what people can do based on your and your fathers abilities. Everybody is different and have different priorities, needs and obligations. Just because you have the time or money to study things doesn't mean everyone can.

Correlation is not causation. There are a lot of factors at play here.

Lots of factors, one of them being there will be generations growing up with a proficiency in Irish that will last them into adulthood and they could well be the Irish teachers of the future.
Just stating people will stop learning because there wont be enough teachers doesn't take in account the fact that the school system is now producing more actual Irish speakers than before, also a lot of people who become teachers return to teach in their own school (or scoil).

Well unless you can cite some statistics here, you are engagin in pure conjecture based on your own anecdotal evidence.

This thread is awash with statistics showing the growth of the gaelscoil movement and the attitude towards the Irish language, if you aren't keeping up sorry but it's late and I'm not searching for and posting stuff that has been posted over and over numerous times before.

deise go deo · 11-02-2011 12:49am

Godge wrote: »

Keep repeating it and it may come true.

He was won my vote. Have never given FG a number 1 before in over 20 years of voting and was wavering between FG and Labour so he is up at least one vote of the silent majority.

FG candidates don't welcome Irish policy

Galway West candidates Cllr Seán Kyne and Senator Fidelma Healy-Eames acknowledged the anger about the proposal expressed yesterday by over 300 representatives of the Gaeltacht community, including mná na tithe, at a public meeting in Furbo, Co Galway.

Seams they are loosing more than they are gaining

MysticalRain · 11-02-2011 12:55am

It's interesting you seem to think the north will be a liability not an asset.

Because it always has been. At least since the textile and heavy industries died off in the latter half of the 20th century.

But they are not anti, which is the point.

That might be the case for Labour. But given their history, FG are practically anti-UI anyway. Either way, it doesn't have an impact on voters, and it never has.

So, you are stating what people can do based on your and your fathers abilities. Everybody is different and have different priorities, needs and obligations. Just because you have the time or money to study things doesn't mean everyone can.

I think you're being a tad disingenuous here. The entire country is not as busy as you so ludicrously attempt to claim here. It's not like there are plenty of people who spend hours a week doing sports training, going to the gym, golfing, playing xbox, stamp collecting or various other activities/hobbies. If Irish is not at the top of people's needs or priorities, then maybe the general public just isn't that interested in it to begin with.

This thread is awash with statistics showing the growth of the gaelscoil movement and the attitude towards the Irish language, if you aren't keeping up sorry but it's late and I'm not searching for and posting stuff that has been posted over and over numerous times before.

I've seen plenty of statistics posted here, a lot of which doesn't amount to much. But none that addressed your specific point here: that there has been a wholesale change in attitudes among young people towards the language in recent years, that Irish is now cool, and no longer the "language of boggers".

MysticalRain · 11-02-2011 1:01am

deise go deo wrote: »

FG candidates don't welcome Irish policy

I think there is a point you're missing here. Two candidates (from Gaeltacht areas) oppose the reforms, partly because some vested interests in the area financially benefit from the status quo.

The fact that only two candidates within the party oppose the reforms gives you a good indication of how little opposition there actually is. If this was FF, there would be a full-scale revolt among the backbenchers by now.

Seams they are loosing more than they are gaining

I think you are engaging in a lot of conjecture there based on your own political biases.

deise go deo · 11-02-2011 1:02am

Labour committed to retention of Irish as core subject for Leaving Certificate

The Leader of the Labour Party, Eamon Gilmore TD, has said that his party was committed to the retention of Irish as one of the three core compulsory subjects for the Leaving Certificate, but he added that teaching of Irish needed significant reform.

I am glad to see that at least one of the soon to be government parties has a progressive approach to Irish in the Education system. Hopefully Enda Kenny will soon realize that his policy is not the best way forward soon and that he will come up with a better policy.

deise go deo · 11-02-2011 1:05am

MysticalRain wrote: »

I think there is a point you're missing here. Two candidates (from Gaeltacht areas) oppose the reforms, partly because some vested interests in the area financially benefit from the status quo.

The fact that only two candidates within the party oppose the reforms gives you a good indication of how little opposition there actually is. If this was FF, there would be a full-scale revolt among the backbenchers by now.

I think you are engaging in a lot of conjecture there based on your own political biases.

Most FG candidates dont seem to know what is going on, The statements made in that document by FG contradict others made today by James Reilly TD.

Candidates criticizing party line in the middle of an election is cause for concern for Enda.

MysticalRain · 11-02-2011 1:12am

deise go deo wrote: »

Most FG candidates dont seem to know what is going on, The statements made in that document by FG contradict others made today by James Reilly TD.

Candidates criticizing party line in the middle of an election is cause for concern for Enda.

I think the mistake you're making here is assuming that the Irish language is a significant issue in this election. It isn't. It's a trivial sideshow at best. Enda Kenny has far bigger problems to deal with right now than than one. The biggest issue lately has been the differences in policy between Labour and Fine Gael (which FF are desperately trying to exploit). That, and Enda avoiding the media.

Is Irish a dead language?

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