More Travellers Tales

Cat Melodeon

murphaph wrote: »

I never said Berlin was crime free and you're contradicting your own point with the bit in bold: you and T runner sought to blame crime on poverty, yet you now admit that middle class types are capable of theft?!

You are actually supporting my point with the above: being poor here in Berlin does not drive people to crime. People make do and retain their common decency and with it their dignity. People who resort to crime because they are poorer (in Ireland there are very very few people living in abject poverty, it's impossible with the high benefit rates) and those who excuse their resorting to crime have no dignity in my eyes.

As for may day and football related violence (sounds like you placed yourself deliberately in harms way by the way): one off incidents which are becoming rarer and rarer...may day this year was very low key, so while Berlin becomes less crime ridden, Ireland goes the other way and we can blame it all on the recession!

Read my posts and you'll see that I never blamed crime on poverty - in fact I very clearly pointed out how offences carried out by wealthier classes are often unpunishable under the Irish justice system even though they also cause severe damage to Irish society.

I don't see how you can make a judgement about me 'placing myself in harms way' without knowing anything about me. Re the football fans - they were wrecking a carriage on the U2 as I made my way home from work. Re riots, by their nature they are not orderly and do not follow a prescribed route. I would always do my best to avoid them as they are terrifying but living close to Oranienstrasse made that next to impossible.

It is not impossible to live in poverty in Ireland. Children are most at risk of living in poverty in Ireland. They have no control over where their income comes from, where their food comes from. Addiction, domestic violence, abuse - all of these problems in adults can and do result in neglect, malnourishment and poverty in children. That is not confined to families living on welfare but occurs across all social classes. 'Respectable' families are just more likely to go undetected.

FTA69

Massive leap you've made there. You can't seem to make up your mind if poor people are more inclined to crime or not!

Balls, and your reasoning is skewed and flawed.

I basically said that poor people in Ireland are no worse than poor people anywhere else really. I also said that poverty etc is the root cause of crime.

That isn't a leap at all.

murphaph

FTA69 wrote: »

Balls, and your reasoning is skewed and flawed.

I basically said that poor people in Ireland are no worse than poor people anywhere else really. I also said that poverty etc is the root cause of crime.

That isn't a leap at all.

But they can be worse, MUCH worse. Go over to the "commuting and Transport" forum and read the Luas red Line thread (hint: it's called Wino and Junkie Tram or somesuch).

Ireland has some of the most scumbag-like people I have ever met anywhere in the world. These scumbags are typically from the "poorer classes" (albeit with massive benefits not seen in Germany, for example) whether your PC, anti-establishment mind mind can accept that or not is not my problem: Irish scumbags are out and out scumbags...go read that forum and come back to me and tell me it's all in my head and that it's just as bad in Berlin, well I'll tell you IT IS NOT just as bad in Berlin. We even have junkies here in Berlin too (if you know what the song "big in Japan" is about you'll already know that though) but guess what, the junkies here don't abuse ordinary members of the travelling public when they won't hand over some "spaaaare change buuuuud".

Lockstep

Byron85 wrote: »

Just curious, but has anyone on this thread every had any direct experience with travellers?

Yes. I did boxing for a few years and the majority of those in my club were travellers (albeit settled ones). They were absolutely sound, never had any problems with them and they were nice lads.
Boxing clubs tend to have fairly strict discipline (for example, if you were found out to be bullying anyone in school or whatever, you were kicked out of the club) so I can't comment on how universal this is.

AlekSmart

Yes. I did boxing for a few years and the majority of those in my club were travellers (albeit settled ones). They were absolutely sound, never had any problems with them and they were nice lads.

Very relevant point here.

These lads would have had at this stage to be something different in Traveller terms.

The very fact of their membership of a settled social group would in the eyes of many of their own elders have marked them down as different.

The Traveller family which decides to embrace a settled lifestyle and with it,a settled social order,risks all manner of retribution from many within their own society.

This is why I would suggest to Pavee Point and other Traveller representative groups that it is not,primarily, the attitudes of the Settled community which need to change (they have altered greatly over the decades),but the attitudes of a large section of Traveller culture itself,which remains totally opposed to any change from within.

FTA69

The Traveller family which decides to embrace a settled lifestyle and with it,a settled social order,risks all manner of retribution from many within their own society.

No they don't. The majority of Travellers these days are settled. There are nomadic Travellers who are very decent people and don't interfere with anyone and there are also settled Travellers who operate completely outside of the social norms, the Dundons in Limerick being a prime example.

FTA69

Murphaph,

But they can be worse, MUCH worse.

The fact is you're saying that crime in this country is linked to Irishness as opposed to poverty, and that's crap. Ireland might have a higher rate of street crime and related blackguarding compared to Germany; but we aren't unique in that regard either like. You'd get the same if you went to Glasgow or Liverpool. If you go to the Carribbean you'll find countries like Trinidad and Jamaica are extremely violent when compared to the likes of St Lucia or Barbados, does that thus mean that crime in that area is related to the ethnicity of Jamaicans as opposed to certain social circumstances?

well I'll tell you IT IS NOT just as bad in Berlin

I know it isn't. Few places in continental Europe are, but then again I've been to a few "ghettos" around the continent myself and none seemed to be as desolate as the ones you get over here.

murphaph

FTA69 wrote: »

Murphaph,



The fact is you're saying that crime in this country is linked to Irishness as opposed to poverty, and that's crap. Ireland might have a higher rate of street crime and related blackguarding compared to Germany; but we aren't unique in that regard either like. You'd get the same if you went to Glasgow or Liverpool. If you go to the Carribbean you'll find countries like Trinidad and Jamaica are extremely violent when compared to the likes of St Lucia or Barbados, does that thus mean that crime in that area is related to the ethnicity of Jamaicans as opposed to certain social circumstances?



I know it isn't. Few places in continental Europe are, but then again I've been to a few "ghettos" around the continent myself and none seemed to be as desolate as the ones you get over here.

So you agree, continentals (even poor ones) are rarely as savage as you get in Ireland (or other lovely spots like Glasgow, Liverpool and Jamaica: is this what we should measure ourselves against??!!).

AlekSmart

So you agree, continentals (even poor ones) are rarely as savage as you get in Ireland

I think FTA69 is saying that Poverty is the root cause of the problems we are experiencing here in Ireland (?)

Perhaps what is making things exponentially worse for modern Ireland is our relatively recent conversion to affluence after a long period as a peasant people.

The sudden accquisition of phenomenal wealth by the Irish gave rise to an explosion of accquisition as 2nd Houses,Apartments,Cars,Boats,Helicopters and any other item capable of being bling`d up.

However now that the Bubble has burst we find that the wealth was largely imagined and a flurry of offloading is under way as we find the spectre of a poverty tide heading back to our native shores.

In many ways the Irish bubble was unique,in terms of the small demographic and the rapidity of that body to get out there and swing with the real pro`s until those real pro`s tired of the upstarts and drifted back to their sunnier homesteads.

FTA69 does not agree that there is any uniquely Irish aspect to the upswing of routine savagery which in many way`s we have become immune to.

Perhaps that is correct and we are over reacting in that settled-middle-class way which has almost become a target in itself.

FTA69

FTA69 does not agree that there is any uniquely Irish aspect to the upswing of routine savagery which in many way`s we have become immune to.

Basically yeah.

Murphahph has contended that poverty and marginalisation doesn't necessarily cause crime because poor areas in Germany aren't as crime-ridden as poor areas in Ireland. Ergo, one would logically have to conclude that crime is an ethnic phenomenon e.g. Irish people are blackguards while Germans aren't; Jamaicans are criminals while St Lucians aren't etc.

That just smacks of nonsense to me to be honest.

murphaph

FTA69 wrote: »

Basically yeah.

Murphahph has contended that poverty and marginalisation doesn't necessarily cause crime because poor areas in Germany aren't as crime-ridden as poor areas in Ireland. Ergo, one would logically have to conclude that crime is an ethnic phenomenon e.g. Irish people are blackguards while Germans aren't; Jamaicans are criminals while St Lucians aren't etc.

That just smacks of nonsense to me to be honest.

It isn't nonsense though. You can tell when you see almost no house alarms here and every single house there has one.

FTA69

murphaph wrote: »

It isn't nonsense though. You can tell when you see almost no house alarms here and every single house there has one.

Much of the crime committed in Germany is blamed on the Turkish minority, is that because Turks are just prone to criminality or is it due to other factors?

T runner

murphaph wrote: »

Ireland has some of the most scumbag-like people I have ever met anywhere in the world.

Speak for yourself.

T runner

AlekSmart wrote: »

I think FTA69 is saying that Poverty is the root cause of the problems we are experiencing here in Ireland (?)

Perhaps what is making things exponentially worse for modern Ireland is our relatively recent conversion to affluence after a long period as a peasant people.

The sudden accquisition of phenomenal wealth by the Irish gave rise to an explosion of accquisition as 2nd Houses,Apartments,Cars,Boats,Helicopters and any other item capable of being bling`d up.

However now that the Bubble has burst we find that the wealth was largely imagined and a flurry of offloading is under way as we find the spectre of a poverty tide heading back to our native shores.

In many ways the Irish bubble was unique,in terms of the small demographic and the rapidity of that body to get out there and swing with the real pro`s until those real pro`s tired of the upstarts and drifted back to their sunnier homesteads.

FTA69 does not agree that there is any uniquely Irish aspect to the upswing of routine savagery which in many way`s we have become immune to.

Perhaps that is correct and we are over reacting in that settled-middle-class way which has almost become a target in itself.

Ridiculous of-course to explain the Irish as peasants before the property bubble of the early part of this century. I think this probably suggests an underlying prejudice on your part.

Your assertion that this fantastical peasant theory is making Irelands plight exponentially worse is clearly drivel.

The level of crime in a society is a reflection of whole society and not just a portion of it. The utter disparity and segregation between the huge Irish middle class and the "scumbag" underclass surely must reflect badly on the people who actually have the means to improve this situation?

How can you possibly suggest a "uniquely Irish" element to routine savegery? Again an underlying prejudice tainting your world view I fear.

AlekSmart

Originally Posted by murphaph:

Ireland has some of the most scumbag-like people I have ever met anywhere in the world.

Originally Posted by T Runner: Speak for yourself.

The level of crime in a society is a reflection of whole society and not just a portion of it. The utter disparity and segregation between the huge Irish middle class and the "scumbag" underclass surely must reflect badly on the people who actually have the means to improve this situation?

Speaking for myself here,I would be of the opinion that much of the "utter disparity and segregation" of the two "classes" is self-generated and a quite deliberate means of avoiding the need to obey the rules by which the huge middle class rump live.

Certainly their willingness to inflict their levels of crime upon all and sundry tends to indicate,to me, that the "Scumbag" class are truly egaliterian in their principles.

I think this probably suggests an underlying prejudice on your part.

I would concur with T Runners analysis of my own prejudice`s with the caveat that there`s little suggestive or underlying about it,I am prejudiced against the "Scumbag" element who would seek to interfere with my own entitlement to live without fear of hinderance being imposed upon me.

I believe that sometimes the people with the means to "improve the situation" are those very people who proffess to be grieviously wronged but need little encouragement to burn down a local Scout Hall or Football Club changing room...cos "theres nuttin for the bored local youths to do"

murphaph

FTA69 wrote: »

Much of the crime committed in Germany is blamed on the Turkish minority, is that because Turks are just prone to criminality or is it due to other factors?

Who says much of the crime is blamed on the turks? I wouldn't assume that at all.

Aidan1

Ergo, one would logically have to conclude that crime is an ethnic phenomenon e.g. Irish people are blackguards while Germans aren't; Jamaicans are criminals while St Lucians aren't etc.

(my bolding)

Therein lies the rub. You are leaping directly to an allegation/argument on an ethnic basis. Logic does not suggest that ethnicity is the only reason for the demonstrably different nature of crime here to many other European countries, no more than it suggests that religion or climate are determinative factors. If anything, your knee jerk assumption that the allegation is an ethnic one tells us more about your sensitivities than it does about the argument at hand.

To my mind, it is much more likely that culture - itself a product of legal systems, class structure and economics (and the history of all of the above) lies at the heart of this. Our crime issues are similar in nature to those in parts of the UK (theirs are worse, I'd argue, but that's a different question), due to a legal system that allows people to escape serious punishment for serial offences, and continues to support them while they do so - in the absence of a societal will to prevent it, crime will flourish. A lack of employment prospects don't help either, and cultural barriers to educational uptake, be that membership of the traveller community or just living in a community where education is frowned upon merely compound the issue.

Ethnicity is a sideshow. And a strawman.

AlekSmart

In the absence of a societal will to prevent it, crime will flourish. A lack of employment prospects don't help either, and cultural barriers to educational uptake, be that membership of the traveller community or just living in a community where education is frowned upon merely compound the issue.

Ethnicity is a sideshow. And a strawman.

Over the past three decades,since Donogh O Malley`s tenure as Minister for Education, good high-quality education has never been more freely available to the Irish masses irrespective of class or creed.

However the real issue is the value which the various strata of Irish Society placed upon that Education and their willingness to embrace the concept of continuing education in parallell to one`s career.

Oh how we laughed all those years ago at the Californian concept of the Mature Students working away at 40+ to put themselves through College....Hippies and Crackpots ..Ho Ho Ho ....whilst we embraced the concept of Free Education for all and essentially allowed our one great chance of far reaching and lasting Social Change to slip through our grasp.

Aidan1`s is as concise a summation as I`ve come across...well put Sir !

FTA69

Aidan,

Therein lies the rub. You are leaping directly to an allegation/argument on an ethnic basis. Logic does not suggest that ethnicity is the only reason for the demonstrably different nature of crime here to many other European countries, no more than it suggests that religion or climate are determinative factors. If anything, your knee jerk assumption that the allegation is an ethnic one tells us more about your sensitivities than it does about the argument at hand.

Wow, hold on there buddy. I was simply following on from murphaph's assertion that poverty etc has nothing to do with crime, rather the Irish are simply scumbags while the likes of the Germans aren't. I'm in full agreement with you and was only highlighting the fallacy contained within your man's point.

Have a look over my previous posts on the topic and you'll see that.

FTA69

murphaph wrote: »

Who says much of the crime is blamed on the turks? I wouldn't assume that at all.

I definitely would, and I know plenty of Germans who would assume that as well. It isn't an opinion that I plucked out of my arse like.

From the magazine, "The Entrepreneur".

Turkish Germans suffer from obstacles common to immigrants, including the language barrier, a lower economic starting point, and racism. In 1993, Science reported that Turkish teenagers were eight times less likely to attend university than were their German counterparts. Even now, Turks tend to live in all-immigrant, lower-income communities feared by native Germans as crime zones

A study by the Bavarian police reported in April 1998 that crime rates among foreigners between the ages of 14 and 17 tended to be three times higher than that among native Germans.

Decades of governmental neglect have made German fears about their immigrant neighbors self-fulfilling. Barred from becoming fully accepted members of the community by racism, economic distress, and, until recently, nationality laws
and language barriers, teenage Turks roam the streets in all-immigrant gangs, increasing German fear and suspicion.

http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/164222104.html

So now, I'll ask you again. Is the above due to the fact the Turks are subject to a series of marginalising social conditions the reason for a high crime rate, or is it just another case of a certain community being "scumbags"?

Aidan1

FTA69 - not sure we agree. I'm suggesting that there are a range of factors involved, and you can't simply link poverty and criminality, and particularly the type of persistent crime that is being discussed here. Crime and poverty are in many ways simply an expression of a cultural outcome. Of course, the two are also recursively related, so even if you do lift some people out of 'poverty' (can someone really be said to be 'poor' at our Social Welfare rates?), their cultural characteristics/milieu are still going to be at least partially determinative. Or to put it another way, there are plenty of people in Ireland who are technically below the poverty line who are not criminals. And there are geographical regions with a concentration of people in a similar position without serious crime problems - if poverty was the key driver, how could this be?

Thing is, 'culture' can be changed - it just takes a political will to engage. Better law enforcement (and proper sentences for criminal offences), a social welfare system that promotes job seeking, and actively discourages long term abuse of the system, and a long term embrace of education (from the very early stages) would all contribute. And communities that are much less tolerant of crime would help too. The Germans, for example, have all of these things (as do the French, but less effectively).

FTA69

Aidan1 wrote: »

FTA69 - not sure we agree. I'm suggesting that there are a range of factors involved, and you can't simply link poverty and criminality, and particularly the type of persistent crime that is being discussed here. Crime and poverty are in many ways simply an expression of a cultural outcome. Of course, the two are also recursively related, so even if you do lift some people out of 'poverty' (can someone really be said to be 'poor' at our Social Welfare rates?), their cultural characteristics/milieu are still going to be at least partially determinative. Or to put it another way, there are plenty of people in Ireland who are technically below the poverty line who are not criminals. And there are geographical regions with a concentration of people in a similar position without serious crime problems - if poverty was the key driver, how could this be?

Thing is, 'culture' can be changed - it just takes a political will to engage. Better law enforcement (and proper sentences for criminal offences), a social welfare system that promotes job seeking, and actively discourages long term abuse of the system, and a long term embrace of education (from the very early stages) would all contribute. And communities that are much less tolerant of crime would help too. The Germans, for example, have all of these things (as do the French, but less effectively).

As long as we're clear on the fact I wasn't linking crime with ethnicity. I also used the word marginalisation as well as poverty, I'd believe the former encompasses many of the points you outlined.

T runner

AlekSmart wrote: »

Speaking for myself here,I would be of the opinion that much of the "utter disparity and segregation" of the two "classes" is self-generated and a quite deliberate means of avoiding the need to obey the rules by which the huge middle class rump live.

So you are saying that the poorer people are deliberately segregating themselves because they see being isolated and despised as the best means of getting away with their natural instincts for crime and general "scumbag" behaviour? A tad ridiculous I would have thought.

Certainly their willingness to inflict their levels of crime upon all and sundry tends to indicate,to me, that the "Scumbag" class are truly egaliterian in their principles.

Crime is not committed by everyone in the lower classes. It is not committed by everyone in the middle classes either. The levels of crime in each are proportional though.

By your own assesment if you were to be born into a poor area you would automatically by dubbed a scumbag by people like you. Your kids would automatically be dubbed scumbags by people like you. Before you have done anything in life you have been labelled by the socially disabled and yet strangely self rightous element of the Irish middle class as a leper.

The middle class seem to be under the misconception that their chances would be somewhat better had they been born poor. That somehow there is genetic differences between them and the people occupying the lower classes. Perhaps over centuries a Darwinianesque process has occurred where the criminal genes have ended up in the poorer classes?
Does that sound about right to you?

If not then how can you isolate the poorer classes as an explanation for criminal levles without looking at the society as a whole?

I believe that sometimes the people with the means to "improve the situation" are those very people who proffess to be grieviously wronged but need little encouragement to burn down a local Scout Hall or Football Club changing room...cos "theres nuttin for the bored local youths to do"

Can you give an example of somebody who has burned down a youth club complaining that they have being wronged? Perhaps this is just another example of the prejudice you boast?

The people with the most socio-economic and political clout to change to type of state we are in are the wealthier classes. Usually this is done by the
the middle class. Not all but many in the Irish middle class think that their responsibility to change their society ends with their taxes.

If you want to change crime levels then DO SOMETHING about it. Dont just trot out the loser arguments that the poor are scumbags or were Irish, were peasants theres nothing we can do.

Greaney

Thargor wrote: »

I bet that was Rahoon was it?

Doughiska. There are only two 'families' in the area. One are terrific and the locals have no problem with them, the other are very big, an extended family (at this point) and have a lousy reputation. Ask anyone who works in the local centra! It's a pity, I think most settled folk admire ANY traveller who just gets a job. It'd be that easy to get our respect:o

AlekSmart

Thing is, 'culture' can be changed - it just takes a political will to engage. Better law enforcement (and proper sentences for criminal offences), a social welfare system that promotes job seeking, and actively discourages long term abuse of the system, and a long term embrace of education (from the very early stages) would all contribute. And communities that are much less tolerant of crime would help too. The Germans, for example, have all of these things (as do the French, but less effectively).

Crikey Aidan1,thats pretty much a Grande-Tour of the major Irish obstacles to societal progress.

Of them all,I would fixate on "Embrace of Education" as the single most important element...ongoing education which has to be both desired and appreciated for itself,rather than as a means of avoiding work...

Posted by T Runner:

So you are saying that the poorer people are deliberately segregating themselves because they see being isolated and despised as the best means of getting away with their natural instincts for crime and general "scumbag" behaviour? A tad ridiculous I would have thought.

Yep,a significant proportion would indeed see the maintance of their "own turf" as a very sound means of protecting their income stream from whatever sources.....A tad ridiculous it may well be,but there`s no accounting for the behaviour patterns of many folk.

By your own assesment if you were to be born into a poor area you would automatically by dubbed a scumbag by people like you. Your kids would automatically be dubbed scumbags by people like you. Before you have done anything in life you have been labelled by the socially disabled and yet strangely self rightous element of the Irish middle class as a leper.

Yep again,a reasonable,if a tad broad,interpretation of how "people like me" think.

The only aspect I would take umbrage with is the "automatically" bit.

Those of my lifelong friends,who do come from poor,deprived,marginalized areas never had to prove anything to me,cos that`s not how it works for the likes of me at any rate.

Everybody is deserving of basic respect and thats totally unconnected with their social background,whether they be poor as churchmice or socially disabled self-righteous middle class arrivistes.

Perhaps over centuries a Darwinianesque process has occurred where the criminal genes have ended up in the poorer classes?
Does that sound about right to you?

It had`nt but who know....this world is a topsy-turvey place and anything`s possible ?

Can you give an example of somebody who has burned down a youth club complaining that they have being wronged? Perhaps this is just another example of the prejudice you boast?

Perhaps this won`t stand as enough of a specific example,but it sure ticks a few boxes for me,as well as confirming that predjudice you speak of ............

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/joker-set-fire-to-old-school-in-revenge-on-hypocrite-staff-2273186.html

Not all but many in the Irish middle class think that their responsibility to change their society ends with their taxes.

And some,not all, in this "middle class" think that the manner in which those Taxes are disbursed on their behalf is in fact contributing to this never ending downward spiral of waywardness,but yes I`d agree it`s a Middle Class thing...and probably a bad thing ??

If you want to change crime levels then DO SOMETHING about it. Dont just trot out the loser arguments that the poor are scumbags or were Irish, were peasants theres nothing we can do.

Oddly enough,I actually do attempt to conform to this admonition,to a greater degree than sometimes is good for my sanity...or otherwise.

stop

Glad to see some jail time as a result of this

Judge jails seven brothers for pub riot

30/07/2010 - 14:22:51
Seven brothers who were among a group of people who violently took over a north Dublin pub and caused €90,000 of damage have received sentences of between four and two-and-a-half years each.

Martin (aged 41), David (aged 37), Brian (aged 31), Christopher (aged 27), Paul (aged 26), William (aged 25) and Stephen (aged 24) Lawrence all pleaded guilty at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court to violent disorder at John D's Pub, Dublin Road, Balbriggan on Bank Holiday Monday May 4, 2009.

The Lawrence brothers comprised of four Balbriggan men, David of Gardiners Hill, Paul of Hamilton Terrace, William of Milara Court and Stephen of Pinewood Green Road; along with Martin of The Dunes, Enniscrone, Co. Sligo; Brian of Talbot Hall, Applewood, Swords and Christopher of Mourne Park, Skerries.

Judge Katherine Delahunt sentenced David Lawrence, who had been barred from the family-run pub and whom she described as the “ring leader”, to four years in jail with the final 12 months suspended.

She said David Lawrence had been the most threatening on the day and had thrown a bottle at Mrs Sinead Roe, one of the licensees.

She sentenced Christopher, Paul, William and Martin Lawrence each to two years and six months with the final year suspended.

The judge gave two-year sentences each to Brian and Stephen Lawrence and suspended the final 12 months in both cases.

She accepted each man, particularly Brian Lawrence, had entered early guilty pleas, had expressed remorse and shame and had gathered a combined €9,200 compensation which included some of the brothers' bail money.

She acknowledged the various amounts raised reflected the brothers' personal circumstances, but told them she would never accept alcohol abuse as a reason for offending behaviour.

She said: “Each of you to a greater or lesser extent caused the damage and you all participated in wanton vandalism.”

Sergeant Liam Donahue told Mr Garrett Baker BL, prosecuting, that the pub had been under the control of the group for about an hour and three quarters before being reclaimed by force by the garda public order unit. The damage to the pub cost €90,000 to be repaired.

He said Mr William Roe had taken the lease on the pub about 11 months beforehand and had spent about €45,000 on decorating and fireproofing the pub in that time.

Mr Roe told gardaí after the incident the scene inside the pub was "similar to a battle zone."

Televisions, furniture, beer pumps, shelves and plaster work had been smashed and 103 panes of glass had to be refitted. A snooker table had been pushed up against a back door to prevent gardaí gaining access.

Judge Delahunt described the bothers’ violent and drunken behaviour as “wanton vandalism” which ruined the “hopes and aspirations” of the Roe family, who are now unemployed as a result.

Mr Roe told gardaí that the Lawrence family had been in the pub since the afternoon and had drunk approximately five pints each.

Sgt Donahue said Mr Roe received a phone call from a member of staff at about 6.30pm that day to say that David Lawrence, who was barred from the pub, had been refused a drink.

Mr Roe said he would come down to the pub and on his way met a garda and told him of the situation. Mr Roe waited outside while the garda went inside. He heard furniture being smashed and people calling out "travellers rights".

A bar man working in the pub said when David arrived in the pub he was aware he had been barred.

Mr Roe's niece, Ms Rachael McDonagh, heard David say "F**k Willie and f*k his bar, I am the bar man now" and a female member of the group started clapping. She heard David scream "No one is getting in or out of this pub. The next person to come in is getting bottled."

David Lawrence was observed on CCTV behind the bar helping himself to drinks.

Mrs Sinead Roe said she told David to get out from behind the bar and he threw a bottle which smashed against a wall. David told her to "Get out and send Willie in."

Mrs Roe switched off the electricity and saw windows being smashed but did not see who did it.

Garda Kevin Fitzpatrick had spoken to David prior to the pub being damaged. Gda Fitzpatrick said in his statement that Paul and William also came outside and William shouted: "We are sick of you, we are going to riot."

Gardaí retreated until the public order unit arrived at 8.20pm and while they attempted to gain entry David sprayed a fire extinguisher out through a broken window. They successfully reclaimed the pub at 8.45pm.

Sgt Donahue said CCTV footage showed the men, some of them shirtless, variously barricade the pub doors with stools, smash windows, break tables, smash pumps, spill alcohol and try to force the door to the office where the CCTV equipment was stored.

David is seen at one point to escort a female garda from the pub after she became surrounded.

Bottles and stools were also thrown and fire extinguishers sprayed at the garda public unit as they tried to gain entry.

Sgt Donahue said the CCTV footage cut out for a time when the electricity was switched off and when it resumed all the damage to the pub had been done.

Christopher has 12 previous convictions, Paul has 33, William has 29, David has 3, Stephen has 32, Martin has 24 and Brian has 16 convictions. Most of the convictions were for minor road traffic and public order offences

Defence counsel for the seven men submitted that they had expressed remorse for the incident and each had brought to court sums of money as compensation which together totaled approximately €9,000.

The men had entered guilty pleas saving the time and expense of a trial and counsel asked the court to show what leniency it could.

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/judge-jails-seven-brothers-for-pub-riot-467432.html

AlekSmart

Christopher has 12 previous convictions, Paul has 33, William has 29, David has 3, Stephen has 32, Martin has 24 and Brian has 16 convictions. Most of the convictions were for minor road traffic and public order offences

Ah sure that`s all right then,just minor oul stuff.....:rolleyes:

Seven brothers who were among a group of people who violently took over a north Dublin pub and caused €90,000 of damage

Defence counsel for the seven men submitted that they had expressed remorse for the incident and each had brought to court sums of money as compensation which together totaled approximately €9,000.

No mention from the same Legal Gentleman of a timeframe for the remaining €81,000 then ?......:)

murphaph

But it's the fault of the middle classes for all this don't you know...

"Travellers Rights" they screamed...to hell with them and their rights! The right to put a family on the dole queue?

ONE of them was barred! The pub was happy to serve the others, so any codology about traveller discrimination can be seen straight through in this case. The travellers already in the pub were being served and NOBODY was discriminating against them, yet as soon as ONE traveller is refused (presumably because he'd caused trouble before) they start screaming TRAVELLERS' RIGHTS! And some of the do gooders are taken in by these people, pullllease!

That's some string of convictions there, strange how they can be described as minor. I've never so much as been arrested, yet someone who accumulates 30 convictions can have them described as "minor". The very fact of accumulating so many convistions is MAJOR!

AlekSmart

That's some string of convictions there, strange how they can be described as minor. I've never so much as been arrested, yet someone who accumulates 30 convictions can have them described as "minor". The very fact of accumulating so many convistions is MAJOR!

Sadly Murphaph,you appear to be getting fooled by that rather simplistic Germanic way of thinking which simplifies issues into Right or Wrong,Black or White.

Ireland,and the Irish are different,we rely on our intrinsic appreciation of "shades of grey" to allow us to take a more pragmatic broad view of Life.

Like Murphaph,I don`t have as much as a penalty-point on my driving licence,something which the Irish state apparatus seemingly attaches no value whatsoever to.....that clear-sheet will merit no accolade for anybody...however if I can rack up a string of offences at some considerable cost to Society in general,then we will find a way to diffuse the situation by classifying them as "minor" thus qualifying me to apply for mitigation of any further sentences I recieve.....Try explaining that konzept to your German kamaraden....

AlekSmart

Maybe,just maybe we are finally seeing the emergence of a semblance of backbone amongst our Law Enforcement agencies ?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/traveller-gang-busted-for-atm-smashandgrabs-2307266.html

One has to admire the strength of character being displayed by the Senior Garda Officers named in this article and the officers actually doing the (Dangerous) legwork in facing down these people.

It is to be fervently hoped that our Judiciary will at least display a similar focus when these cases begin to come to trial,although one can well imagine the usual rapacious Legal Practitioners already drooling at an opportunity to challenge "Electronic Transfer" as a viable methodology in the 21st century

One quote from the article,however,set me thinking.....

As part of the investigation, gardai examined bank accounts held by members of the gang who were all in receipt of welfare and unemployment benefits.

The accounts showed that sums of between €30,000 and €50,000 were going each month through an account of one female member based in Wexford, who was in receipt of social welfare payments.

The garda operation also uncovered what is understood to be a highly sophisticated and extensive money laundering operation between here and Britain. Money was being used to buy and trade horses, caravans, 4x4 vehicles and other equipment.

A large number of bank accounts were examined with help from the Criminal Assets Bureau. The overall operation was co-ordinated and directed by the head of the Garda's National Support Services, Assistant Commissioner Derek Byrne.

There appears to be no mention of any parallell interest or investigation by the State agency effectively subsidising the alledged criminal enterprise,The Dept of Social Protection.

It again would seem,that once an individual is established on the DSP`s glideslope,it is well nigh impossible for them to be dislodged :rolleyes:

demonspawn

I live in a small town in Leitrim. We have one public park that the local GAA use to practice and play matches. They have complete control over what's allowed and not allowed in this public park, which is paid for with taxpayer money.

Recently, a Romanian circus troupe was refused access to the public park as GAA heads decided it would tear up a pitch which is half sand anyway.

Dogs have recently been banned in this public park, although certain GAA members are still allowed to bring their dogs. Complaints have been registered with the park's actual caretakers, still waiting for a reply.

My small town shuts down completely whenever travellers pass through for weddings or funerals. Every pub, shop, or other place of business closes by 5 o'clock.

Recently, a traveller family purchased a very popular local pub/night club. I assume they liked the town and decided to settle down here. They were actually pretty good people. About two months later, they sold the pub and moved on because everyone in the town just stopped going to this pub after the travellers purchased it.

I'm not giving my opinion on travellers in general or the way they are treated in this country. I am simply giving an account of what goes on in my town and probably small towns all around the country.

oppenheimer1

demonspawn wrote: »

I live in a small town in Leitrim. We have one public park that the local GAA use to practice and play matches. They have complete control over what's allowed and not allowed in this public park, which is paid for with taxpayer money.

Recently, a Romanian circus troupe was refused access to the public park as GAA heads decided it would tear up a pitch which is half sand anyway.

Dogs have recently been banned in this public park, although certain GAA members are still allowed to bring their dogs. Complaints have been registered with the park's actual caretakers, still waiting for a reply.

My small town shuts down completely whenever travellers pass through for weddings or funerals. Every pub, shop, or other place of business closes by 5 o'clock.

Recently, a traveller family purchased a very popular local pub/night club. I assume they liked the town and decided to settle down here. They were actually pretty good people. About two months later, they sold the pub and moved on because everyone in the town just stopped going to this pub after the travellers purchased it.

I'm not giving my opinion on travellers in general or the way they are treated in this country. I am simply giving an account of what goes on in my town and probably small towns all around the country.

What has the GAA got to do with travellers. If the GAA don't own the ground and as you say its a council funded and maintained amenity they cannot stop someone from using it.

Think about it, they have no jurisdiction so how could they possibly stop anyone from using the park. They can be simply ignored.

I suspect the GAA own the ground, as they own almost if not all of their sports facilities outright.

aDeener

demonspawn wrote: »

I live in a small town in Leitrim. We have one public park that the local GAA use to practice and play matches. They have complete control over what's allowed and not allowed in this public park, which is paid for with taxpayer money.

Recently, a Romanian circus troupe was refused access to the public park as GAA heads decided it would tear up a pitch which is half sand anyway.

Dogs have recently been banned in this public park, although certain GAA members are still allowed to bring their dogs. Complaints have been registered with the park's actual caretakers, still waiting for a reply.

My small town shuts down completely whenever travellers pass through for weddings or funerals. Every pub, shop, or other place of business closes by 5 o'clock.

Recently, a traveller family purchased a very popular local pub/night club. I assume they liked the town and decided to settle down here. They were actually pretty good people. About two months later, they sold the pub and moved on because everyone in the town just stopped going to this pub after the travellers purchased it.

I'm not giving my opinion on travellers in general or the way they are treated in this country. I am simply giving an account of what goes on in my town and probably small towns all around the country.

what the hell has that got to do with anything? :rolleyes:

demonspawn

aDeener wrote: »

what the hell has that got to do with anything? :rolleyes:

Yeah, sorry. Just my way of saying I have no sympathy for the GAA folks that got robbed in the op. As if because they are GAA they deserve more sympathy than anyone else.

oppenheimer1

demonspawn wrote: »

Yeah, sorry. Just my way of saying I have no sympathy for the GAA folks that got robbed in the op. As if because they are GAA they deserve more sympathy than anyone else.

Well take your anti-GAA bile to another thread or forum.

demonspawn

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Well take your anti-GAA bile to another thread or forum.

So because I'm not pro-GAA I'm automatically anti-GAA? I think the GAA has an important place in this country, just not the place that's been given them by the Nationalists of this country. Anyway, this is offtopic.

Travellers are not the only criminals in this country, far from it. Stories like these only serve to deepen the divide between settled and non-settled people in this country. Perhaps if travellers where show even the most basic amount of respect, some of them wouldn't be so quick to turn to criminality. As it is now, they have nothing to lose as they have all been painted with the same brush for years.

If you treat a person like an animal, do not be surprised when they begin acting as such.

aDeener

demonspawn wrote: »

So because I'm not pro-GAA I'm automatically anti-GAA? I think the GAA has an important place in this country, just not the place that's been given them by the Nationalists of this country. Anyway, this is offtopic.

Travellers are not the only criminals in this country, far from it. Stories like these only serve to deepen the divide between settled and non-settled people in this country. Perhaps if travellers where show even the most basic amount of respect, some of them wouldn't be so quick to turn to criminality. As it is now, they have nothing to lose as they have all been painted with the same brush for years.

If you treat a person like an animal, do not be surprised when they begin acting as such.

well you claim to have no sympathy for GAA folk who got robbed simply on the basis that they are GAA folk. if thats not anti-GAA i don't know what is. pathetic


as oppenheimer said take your shite elsewhere

demonspawn

aDeener wrote: »

well you claim to have no sympathy for GAA folk who got robbed simply on the basis that they are GAA folk. if thats not anti-GAA i don't know what is. pathetic


as oppenheimer said take your shite elsewhere

No, I just don't have any extra sympathy just because they were GAA lads that got robbed. Simple as. Now please try to stay on topic, which is the unfair discrimination of travellers in this country.

BlaasForRafa

demonspawn wrote: »

So because I'm not pro-GAA I'm automatically anti-GAA? I think the GAA has an important place in this country, just not the place that's been given them by the Nationalists of this country. Anyway, this is offtopic.

Travellers are not the only criminals in this country, far from it. Stories like these only serve to deepen the divide between settled and non-settled people in this country. Perhaps if travellers where show even the most basic amount of respect, some of them wouldn't be so quick to turn to criminality. As it is now, they have nothing to lose as they have all been painted with the same brush for years.

If you treat a person like an animal, do not be surprised when they begin acting as such.

You have no sympathy for people who have been robbed, that may or may not make you anti-GAA but it surely makes you a scumbag.

AlekSmart

Demonspawn posted :-

Yeah, sorry. Just my way of saying I have no sympathy for the GAA folks that got robbed in the op.

Demonspawn later posted :-

If you treat a person like an animal, do not be surprised when they begin acting as such.

The issue here is not Travellers,or GAA members or indeed any other "grouping" but rather criminality and the willingness of our established societal systems to address it.

I would be just as concerned if the original targets were Soccer,Rugby or Tiddleywinks club members.

Demonspawn posted :-

Travellers are not the only criminals in this country, far from it. Stories like these only serve to deepen the divide between settled and non-settled people in this country. Perhaps if travellers where show even the most basic amount of respect, some of them wouldn't be so quick to turn to criminality. As it is now, they have nothing to lose as they have all been painted with the same brush for years.

The criminality issue is clear and unargueable,of course Travellers are not all criminally inclined and equally they are not the only criminals to be found...nobody is realistically suggesting that.

However demonspawn and many others are quick to demand this respect without any real understanding of what "Respect" actually entails.

As far as I am concerned respect is something which comes about only as a result of being earned and certainly not by virtue of merely being a member of one grouping,be that Traveller or GAA !

We are,as a society,just emerging from a dark era when the respect demonspawn speaks of,was unquestioningly lavished upon the Roman Catholic church with devasting consequences.

There are however,signs of new and more robust elements within the RC church which may yet save the day for it,and organized religion as a whole.

Perhaps those other groups who seek renewed "Respect" need to look within their own ranks for some of the answers to their problems ?

BlaasForRafa

demonspawn wrote: »

No, I just don't have any extra sympathy just because they were GAA lads that got robbed. Simple as. Now please try to stay on topic, which is the unfair discrimination of travellers in this country.

There is no unfair discrimination against travellers in this country. Any discrimination against travellers is brought upon themselves because of the criminal and anti-social activities of a number of people in their "community"

wellieboot

Maybe,just maybe we are finally seeing the emergence of a semblance of backbone amongst our Law Enforcement agencies ?

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-2307266.html

One has to admire the strength of character being displayed by the Senior Garda Officers named in this article and the officers actually doing the (Dangerous) legwork in facing down these people.

It is to be fervently hoped that our Judiciary will at least display a similar focus when these cases begin to come to trial,although one can well imagine the usual rapacious Legal Practitioners already drooling at an opportunity to challenge "Electronic Transfer" as a viable methodology in the 21st century

One quote from the article,however,set me thinking.....

As part of the investigation, gardai examined bank accounts held by members of the gang who were all in receipt of welfare and unemployment benefits.

Quote:
The accounts showed that sums of between €30,000 and €50,000 were going each month through an account of one female member based in Wexford, who was in receipt of social welfare payments.

The garda operation also uncovered what is understood to be a highly sophisticated and extensive money laundering operation between here and Britain. Money was being used to buy and trade horses, caravans, 4x4 vehicles and other equipment.

A large number of bank accounts were examined with help from the Criminal Assets Bureau. The overall operation was co-ordinated and directed by the head of the Garda's National Support Services, Assistant Commissioner Derek Byrne.
There appears to be no mention of any parallell interest or investigation by the State agency effectively subsidising the alledged criminal enterprise,The Dept of Social Protection.

It again would seem,that once an individual is established on the DSP`s glideslope,it is well nigh impossible for them to be dislodged



There are Social Welfare Inspectors attached to the Criminal Assets Bureau and once CAB gets involved, all aspects are examined including Revenue issues and SW entitlements

demonspawn

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

There is no unfair discrimination against travellers in this country. Any discrimination against travellers is brought upon themselves because of the criminal and anti-social activities of a number of people in their "community"

Mate, I've seen it first hand so please don't try to tell me otherwise.

Maybe I should discriminate against all FF supporters because some members have a history of criminality. Or discriminate against all residents of Ballyfermot because a portion of the population are criminals.

I know a lot of travelers personally that are proud to do a hard day's work. I was unemployed and homeless in Dublin when I was 19 and got a job paving driveways with the travelers. They paid me a fair wage and even bought me breakfast and lunch every day. I made enough to put a deposit on a flat and got a "proper" job.

murphaph

demonspawn wrote: »

Mate, I've seen it first hand so please don't try to tell me otherwise.

Maybe I should discriminate against all FF supporters because some members have a history of criminality. Or discriminate against all residents of Ballyfermot because a portion of the population are criminals.

I know a lot of travelers personally that are proud to do a hard day's work. I was unemployed and homeless in Dublin when I was 19 and got a job paving driveways with the travelers. They paid me a fair wage and even bought me breakfast and lunch every day. I made enough to put a deposit on a flat and got a "proper" job.

Sure this is just another traveller scam...sh!t quality "paved driveways" that crack and rut under the weight of a car after a few weeks/months. Same with their gutters and "roof treatments" (red paint) that prevent leaking roofs!

They typically target older people who are easily confused before ripping them off to (often) the tune of thousands. That's where your deposit came from.

AlekSmart

Demonspawn posted :-

I was unemployed and homeless in Dublin when I was 19 and got a job paving driveways with the travelers.

Was it by any chance The Cobble Lock King ?

FTA69

murphaph wrote: »

Sure this is just another traveller scam...sh!t quality "paved driveways" that crack and rut under the weight of a car after a few weeks/months. Same with their gutters and "roof treatments" (red paint) that prevent leaking roofs!

They typically target older people who are easily confused before ripping them off to (often) the tune of thousands. That's where your deposit came from.

Balls. The driveway scam is prevalent, and Travellers are fairly prominent perpatrators of it; but there are also many honest Traveller workmen doing the likes of drives and tree-topping etc.

goose2005

murphaph wrote: »

It isn't nonsense though. You can tell when you see almost no house alarms here and every single house there has one.

Because house alarms are almost completely useless. Only about 1% are reported.

demonspawn

AlekSmart wrote: »

However demonspawn and many others are quick to demand this respect without any real understanding of what "Respect" actually entails.

As far as I am concerned respect is something which comes about only as a result of being earned and certainly not by virtue of merely being a member of one grouping,be that Traveller or GAA !

We are,as a society,just emerging from a dark era when the respect demonspawn speaks of,was unquestioningly lavished upon the Roman Catholic church with devasting consequences.

There are however,signs of new and more robust elements within the RC church which may yet save the day for it,and organized religion as a whole.

Perhaps those other groups who seek renewed "Respect" need to look within their own ranks for some of the answers to their problems ?

Well I guess that's where you and I differ. You see, I'm the type of person that will show a basic level of respect to everyone until they prove they do not deserve it. That means not lumping an entire group of people in together and calling them criminals.

I don't really know what the RCC has to do with anything, but I pity anyone who still has any sort of respect for that organization. They have proven themselves time and time again to be the most evil sort of brainwashing fascists, rapists, thieves, and murderers.

"There are however,signs of new and more robust elements within the RC church which may yet save the day for it,and organized religion as a whole."

That statement actually shocked me, but then it's that mentality that's kept the Church in this country for so long. This is a good example of someone losing my respect.

murphaph

demonspawn wrote: »

Well I guess that's where you and I differ. You see, I'm the type of person that will show a basic level of respect to everyone until they prove they do not deserve it. That means not lumping an entire group of people in together and calling them criminals.

I don't really know what the RCC has to do with anything, but I pity anyone who still has any sort of respect for that organization. They have proven themselves time and time again to be the most evil sort of brainwashing fascists, rapists, thieves, and murderers.

"There are however,signs of new and more robust elements within the RC church which may yet save the day for it,and organized religion as a whole."

That statement actually shocked me, but then it's that mentality that's kept the Church in this country for so long. This is a good example of someone losing my respect.

Quite strange that you dismiss other peoples' views because they generalise about the traveller population. Not every priest was a rapist you know, I had a catholic education (though don't consider myself catholic anymore) with priests and all and guess what, they never raped us!

I understand however people that DO tar the entire RCC with the same brush, as so many scandals DO amount to a hill of beans....just with our dear traveller "friends". Where there's smoke, there's fire.

murphaph

FTA69 wrote: »

Balls. The driveway scam is prevalent, and Travellers are fairly prominent perpatrators of it; but there are also many honest Traveller workmen doing the likes of drives and tree-topping etc.

How is it balls then? You admit the travellers are big time perpetrators of the scam, yet claim my post is "balls"? You're confusing yourself in your defence of these cowboys (who often use very intimidatory tactics on older people).