More Travellers Tales

I have had plenty of experience with dealing with these people, when I worked at sea on the Dublin Holyhead Route.

They know the system inside out, they would rob you blind and with no remorse, like it was the most natural thing in the world to do.

Try being on ship for over 4 hours with a funeral entourage of over a 100 of these people.

You would earn your money, they are hard work.

irishh_bob

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

The vast majority of my experiences with Travellers have been pretty much the same as my experiences with any other distinctive group within society - although most aggro I've ever encountered has been from settled folk. I worked in bars when I was younger and only ever got hassle from middle-aged (settled) men. I was mugged in Dublin by a 17-year-old scobe from Phibsborough - subsequently arrested and not a Traveller. People regularly fly-tip on our land - the ones we have caught (either red-handed or by sifting through their filth) have mostly come from well-to-do estates in the suburbs of a nearby town. I have been working in education for the past 8 years and have seen more trouble caused by settled kids than by Traveller kids - guess it would work out about the same proportionately if I did the stats.

The negatives I have encountered with Travellers are that once a family camped on our land and were burning down tyres for the metal inside. We asked them to move on, they did after some friendly banter, and cleaned up their mess after them too. A Traveller girl nicked a pack of fags on me once. The only other offences I have personally seen would be punishable by the fashion police rather than the Gardai so I'm not counting them and have probably been guilty of similar in my day. I've had loads ofnormal and positive experiences with Travellers as I have some as neighbours and have worked with others - they no longer Travellers to me, just people I know.

The legal justice system in Ireland is skewed unfavourably against young men from working class and Traveller backgrounds (there was a piece of research done on this by Ciaran McCullagh in UCC). The effects of something like tax evasion are much greater on society than the effects of someone nicking an item from a supermarket, yet tax evasion hasn't been criminalised and the likes of the golden circle get away with practically raping the country while Travellers are reviled and heaped with opprobrium for petty crimes and tax evasion that is peanuts in comparison. Traveller crimes and misdemeanors are conflated in the media, making them higher profile and making them appear more common than crimes by the settled community when they are not always so (a study in UL on immigrant crime highlights this in it's research).

The governemt in behoven to Travellers and is morally bound to provide halting sites, educations centres etc above and beyond that which is provided to settled folk, as for decades it actively pursued a policy of breaking up Traveller family units, criminalising their lifestyle, denying them equal access to services etc. The results of these policies can be seen today in the way that Traveller culture has become fractured, trades and skills traditionally passed from generation to generation have been lost, Traveller social hierarchies have lost their significance and very little has been done to carve out an alternative space for Travellers within Irish society. Look at how the culture of the Gaeltacht is preserved and protected, at how farmers' livelihoods are defended at every turn despite farming no longer being a viable career path for most, at how fishing communities are retrained and invested in in order to give them a place in society without causing them to lose their unique characteristics. Just because we do not place value on Traveller culture does not mean it is without value. They are a separate cultural group, whether you accept them as a distinct ethnic group or not, and have rights as such. Ireland is weird in that it has all the laws and policies in place to provide equity to Travellers, but the general populace has no desire to see those laws or policies implemented. Instead, people seem happy to say that '95% of Travellers have criminal records' with no proof whatsoever, to blacken all on their experiences of some, and to completely ignore the fact that privileged members of society commit and get away with much worse without a murmur from the masses.

You may personally have had some bad experiences but it is dishonest to say that Travellers are all criminals or to make out that they are responsible for all the ills of society. It's quite sickening that this attitude is so prevalent and acceptable in Ireland.

i find your bleeding heart liberal attitude sickening , PC wooly liberal do-gooders like you ( without being aware of it ) are tinkers biggest enemy , you reinforce thier belief that they are a perpetually opressed group , you encourage them to view themselves as victims and as such , prevent them from getting on with life like everyone else , you promote seperation between the two communitys by calling for ethnic minority status for tiinkers , nomadism is not possible in 21st century ireland , it breeds dysfunctionality , tinkers need to assimilate into normal society , the rest of us cannot afford thier feckless lawless so called culture any longer

irishh_bob

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Yes, just as the settled population has a responsibility to ensure that all of it's members live their lives within the laws of the land, yet you and I are not reviled or assumed criminal because of the actions of settled gangland criminals or settled murderers or thieves or whatever.

You may not see anything of value in Traveller culture, you are entitled to your opinion. Personally, I am attracted to their rich heritage of story and song. I also find the Traveller version of Catholicism fascinating. They have their own languages and dialects thereof, traditional family structures that are quite different to those of settled folk, unique traditions and superstitions, a long association with horsecraft etc. What benefit is that to 21st century Ireland? It has the same value as preserving the Irish language, music and oral tradition, or of providing space within our society for other minority cultures, such as Poles or Muslims. I certainly don't want to live in a bland mono-identity state where the only valid way to be is white, settled, middle-class, Catholic and straight and everyone else is seen as somehow wrong or inferior. Sound like some sort of 1930s hell.

i too find the tinker version of catholicism fascincating , i find it fascinating that people who would happily rob the ham out of your sandwich or kick the crap out of you or drive into you while driving thier ( untaxed ) uninsured van drunk , can turn round five minutes later and head straight for KNOCK

mikemac

Indeed, some people in Ireland bless themselves as they pass every church and then burgle your house or steal your car/motorbike. Yep, true Christians there
Any scrap boss?
If you say no they'll be back that night so you better hope it's lambing season when you will be around at night.

Wait, you can call the local gardai.
Oh wait, the local garda station was shut permantly down due to cutbacks, a lot of rural areas have experiened this.
The local garda or postmaster retires and the garda station or post office gets shut, how convenient

It's great to say reduce public spending but if it's your garda station or post office that gets shut it's entirely different.
Shut the garda station and the gardai have to drive out from the town, shut the PO and the pensioners get a free bus to the nearest town to get their entitlements, Minster O'Cuiv started this I believe.
Would it realy cost that much to put a graduate in the PO and and a garda in the rural station with some mentoring from an experienced officer?

irishh_bob

feelingstressed wrote: »

Indeed, some people in Ireland bless themselves as they pass every church and then burgle your house or steal your car/motorbike. Yep, true Christians there
Any scrap boss?
If you say no they'll be back that night so you better hope it's lambing season when you will be around at night.

Wait, you can call the local gardai.
Oh wait, the local garda station was shut permantly down due to cutbacks, a lot of rural areas have experiened this.
The local garda or postmaster retires and the garda station or post office gets shut, how convenient

It's great to say reduce public spending but if it's your garda station or post office that gets shut it's entirely different.
Shut the garda station and the gardai have to drive out from the town, shut the PO and the pensioners get a free bus to the nearest town to get their entitlements, Minster O'Cuiv started this I believe.
Would it realy cost that much to put a graduate in the PO and and a garda in the rural station with some mentoring from an experienced officer?

im in favour of closing both rural garda station ( and rural schools ) and post offices , often the difference between a copper travelling from the recentley closed rural station and the closest main town is 5 mins , the country cannot afford such ( luxurys ) anymore

AlekSmart

I beg to differ. I see p!ss poor people in Berlin everyday. The poorest neighbourhoods (Wedding and Neukölln in the west and many former eastern districts) are still perfectly safe places to go. Nobody would be afraid of these places (I live in Neukölln myself) and crime would be rare, much rarer than in an equivalent poor area of Dublin: so explain to me why poverty in Berlin does not lead to no go areas or places you'd never set foot in, yet in Dublin (where welfare payments are MUCH higher) the same cannot be said?

A rather pertinent question indeed from Murphaph and I can support his/her observation after myself and my friend found ourselves alone on a BVB Bus at an outer terminus in what resembled olf style Ballymun multiplied by 1000.

Expecting the Busdriver to do a DublinBus on it by immediately swinging around and vamoosing,I was somewhat surprised when the lad switched off his engine and got out of the cab for a smoke !!!

We had a conversation in pidgin and the gist was "Trouble ?...Why would there be trouble,the people here need their bus"....The key word being "Their".

He further told us that the only trouble came during Fussball matches with organized gangs attempting to gut each other...however he said the Police did`nt take any nonsense if they attempted to vandalize public property....

I was highly impressed at the philosophy behind this Busdrivers explanation and his relaxed demeanour in the middle of what,in modern Ireland,could be termed a wasteland.

This has little to do with Travellers,their culture or indeed the "settled folk"...it`s far far broader and could in some respects be described as uniquely prevalent in Ireland and the UK....why?:)...well now there`s a topic to ponder over !!

Cat Melodeon

Sorry, I can't seem to multiquote.

murphaph wrote: »

By the same token the entire populace was denied lots of freedoms normally available in our western neighbour states (catholic church influence) but guess what, people get over things, they bounce back, they don't wallow in self pity. The travellers have had every hand extended to them by the state for the past 20 years....they DON'T WANT TO GRASP THAT HAND.

A majority of the entire populace voted against some of those freedoms on multiple occasions (divorce & abortion referendums for example) so that can hardly be comparable to the housing, health and education inequalities that were imposed on Travellers in the past.

I agree that better policies have been in place for the past 20 years, but it takes more than 2 decades to redress the problems caused by previous policy.

I do not know a single Traveller who 'wallows in self-pity'. Most of the ones I know are strong assertive people who continue to try to improve their lot despite constant suspicion and harrassment. It's very difficult to grasp a hand that you know is disgusted by you.

Cat Melodeon

feelingstressed wrote: »

If you say our education system doesn't help travelers we have Leaving Cert Applied, Transition year and even free FAS placements. Anyone can be a tradesman if you wish.

Very few Travellers do TY as the cost is prohibitive (in 2009 there were 45 Travellers doing TY in the whole country). LCA only allows a minority of students to progress to third level. The same for FAS placements. Anyone can become a tradesman - not much call for carpenters etc these days. Shunting Travellers early on into 'vocational' programs limit their options once they enter Senior Cycle. The inequalities inherent in the Irish education system are well documented. They are not restricted to Travellers either, kids from working class backgrounds are also much less likely to go to university, regardless of their academic ability. Grind schools, private tuition etc all give middle-class kids an advantage over others.

Cat Melodeon

irishh_bob wrote: »

i find your bleeding heart liberal attitude sickening , PC wooly liberal do-gooders like you ( without being aware of it ) are tinkers biggest enemy , you reinforce thier belief that they are a perpetually opressed group , you encourage them to view themselves as victims and as such , prevent them from getting on with life like everyone else , you promote seperation between the two communitys by calling for ethnic minority status for tiinkers , nomadism is not possible in 21st century ireland , it breeds dysfunctionality , tinkers need to assimilate into normal society , the rest of us cannot afford thier feckless lawless so called culture any longer

"bleeding heart liberal attitude...PC wooly liberal do-gooders". Did you cut and paste that from the Daily Mail?

I don't encourage anyone to think of themselves as victims. I disagree with welfare fraud and would like to see more stringent means testing of people (all people, not just Travellers) who have other sources of income and yet still claim dole. There should also be more equitable distribution of services - many Travellers do pay taxes, should they be denied their rights because some people abuse the system?

I would encourage people like yourself to examine why you think it acceptable to label an entire group within society as feckless, lawless, dysfunctional etc. Someone who does not accept that sort of prejudice is not necessarily a liberal, they are simply not as intolerant as those who do.

Cat Melodeon

irishh_bob wrote: »

i too find the tinker version of catholicism fascincating , i find it fascinating that people who would happily rob the ham out of your sandwich or kick the crap out of you or drive into you while driving thier ( untaxed ) uninsured van drunk , can turn round five minutes later and head straight for KNOCK

I'm sure everyone knows plenty of settled people who would fit that description.

irishh_bob

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Sorry, I can't seem to multiquote.




A majority of the entire populace voted against some of those freedoms on multiple occasions (divorce & abortion referendums for example) so that can hardly be comparable to the housing, health and education inequalities that were imposed on Travellers in the past.

I agree that better policies have been in place for the past 20 years, but it takes more than 2 decades to redress the problems caused by previous policy.

I do not know a single Traveller who 'wallows in self-pity'. Most of the ones I know are strong assertive people who continue to try to improve their lot despite constant suspicion and harrassment. It's very difficult to grasp a hand that you know is disgusted by you.

are you vincent browne , seriously , do you ever actually speak to people other than OFFICAL victims or D4 left liberals

tinkers harrass , they dont get harrassed , unless you believe harrassment extends to home owners running them off thier property due to the fact that they already have tarmacadam and a little dog

Pittens

The inequalities inherent in the Irish education system are well documented. They are not restricted to Travellers either, kids from working class backgrounds are also much less likely to go to university, regardless of their academic ability. Grind schools, private tuition etc all give middle-class kids an advantage over others.

Irrelevant. Working class kids generally get a job.

There are no structural inequalities in the Irish system. There has been, instead, a vast transfer of money from the working class and middle income tax payer to travellers ( and others). This is a form of discrimination in a pipe dream.

BTW, if the problem is one of resources why not put the halting sites in the richest parts of Ireland, rather than the working class estates and the edges of town.

Chiparus

http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=112869

Interesting read at the bottom about difficulty identifying them

Recently there were a group of Irish "conmen" travelling Australia selling cheap generators that had been relabled with higher quality lables. eg Honda

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5014900.ece

Scofflaw

irishh_bob wrote: »

are you vincent browne , seriously , do you ever actually speak to people other than OFFICAL victims or D4 left liberals

tinkers harrass , they dont get harrassed , unless you believe harrassment extends to home owners running them off thier property due to the fact that they already have tarmacadam and a little dog

Pack in the aggro, irishh_bob. You're not doing your case any favours.

moderately,
Scofflaw

murphaph

AlekSmart wrote: »

A rather pertinent question indeed from Murphaph and I can support his/her observation after myself and my friend found ourselves alone on a BVB Bus at an outer terminus in what resembled olf style Ballymun multiplied by 1000.

Expecting the Busdriver to do a DublinBus on it by immediately swinging around and vamoosing,I was somewhat surprised when the lad switched off his engine and got out of the cab for a smoke !!!

We had a conversation in pidgin and the gist was "Trouble ?...Why would there be trouble,the people here need their bus"....The key word being "Their".

He further told us that the only trouble came during Fussball matches with organized gangs attempting to gut each other...however he said the Police did`nt take any nonsense if they attempted to vandalize public property....

I was highly impressed at the philosophy behind this Busdrivers explanation and his relaxed demeanour in the middle of what,in modern Ireland,could be termed a wasteland.

This has little to do with Travellers,their culture or indeed the "settled folk"...it`s far far broader and could in some respects be described as uniquely prevalent in Ireland and the UK....why?:)...well now there`s a topic to ponder over !!

You will also presumably have noticed Alek that Berlin bus drivers (even in the poorest neighbourhoods) handle cash fares and I can tell you that if one is robbed it will be on the radio: it happens so infrequently here.

Those outer "Ballymunesque" districts (Hellersdorf, Marzahn etc.) have some really poor people living in them, but they aren't all "forced into a life of crime" as the bleeding hearts on here would have you believe. They know right from wrong and abide by the law, like most Germans.

Greaney

Okay, so I'm a local authority tenant and I've been living right beside a halting site (in Galway) for 6 years now. I was on the residents assoc. and all that and here's my experience.

1) The first year was hell, their kids bullied ours (in fact my son was eventually bullied so badly I had to call the local authority and their school)

2) The council had moved one of the families into our estate. The domestics got so bad (herself would tell him that we were calling them 'Knackers', I think it was to deflect the abuse) that it resulted in the husband running around one night with a knife and banging on peoples doors and pushing the doors in if they were ajar (folk talked him down) and the police arrived, he ran off. Another night he finally, actually assaulted someone. There was a case. The residents, very frightened signed a letter to say how terrified they were. It went to court. (Actually, there were a few more incidences than this but it's just too long winded)

The council supported us best they could, some folk were intimidated and backed out.... to cut a long story short, it resulted in the second 'exclusion order' in the history of the state against this guy. The family moved to another estate.

Then for 5 years, peace and quiet untill....

3) They tried a land grab!!! Yes folks, the brother of the guy who'd been banned hired a guy with a digger and began, one friday evening,
building a wall in the middle of our park to put trailers in!! I had to confront yer man (not pleasent). The council and Guards came the next morning, they were totally stunned. I was advised not to spend the night in my home!!

I've not heard what's happened to that case, I know the council were pressing charges. Yer man who orchestrated it turned up on my doorstep a couple of weeks later with members of a traveller support group (all traveller women) who realised in the course of the exchange that he was dodgy.

The women were terrific, and pointed out to him they wanted to 'build bridges' with the settled folk, not animosity. I appreciated that and they gave me their number.

I've had reasonable normal experiences with travellers, I've had bad experiences with settled folk, just like most. But when I've had bad experiences with travellers, they've been extraordinarily bad!! Seriously, to be told to leave my house for my own safety by two councillors and a housing officer!!

On the education note, I believe NUIG have access programmes for minority groups. They target a different group every year. A few years ago they focused on travellers and were astonished to recieve no enquireies to the college after they had send material out to all the traveller groups. I've tried googleing it for a link but I can't find the material, in fairness, I heard it in a television interview by a member of NUIG so...

irishh_bob

feelingstressed wrote: »

A rural garda station is a luxury?
So what happened the days when the garda lived in the area and knew everybody there and sorted problems before they escalated?
Move the garda station into the town where the fresh faced recruits know nothing about nobody?
A rural station solved issues before they reached the district court, saved money in the long term.

5 minutes for response time? You must live in a densely populated county, why don't the rest of us move into the towns and save our county council money.

A rural school is a luxury? They get the same grant as any town school, no more and no less.

Lets take it a step further. Our hospital in Nenagh lost its A&E services as it was centralized to Limerick Regional. Do you think a heart attack victim can survive a 25km trip?
Co. Clare is in the same situation as us, god help you if you are in Tipp and the nearest ambulance is in Clare, but hey it's rationalization and saves money

the notion of police presence being able to pre-empt crime by them being on 1st name basis where thier stationed is a whimsical one

as for rural schools , the parish where i live has three primary schools , the largest and most central one has 80 pupils , the one closest to me ( which is two mile from the main one ) has 28 pupils and the smallest one ( which is 2.5 miles from the main one ) has around 20 pupils , were all three schools to be merged into one , the furthest any student would have to travel to school is four miles and they would be a small minority who live outside the parish , the school closest to me with 28 pupils employs a special needs teacher for one single student , this child baschically has a private tutor , surely one special needs teacher would suffice in one central school were the three schools to be merged

too many people in this country want a state of the art hospital , 3rd level institution , top notch public transport and international airports within spitting distance , its completley unafordable and tottally unrealistic

T runner

murphaph wrote: »

I beg to differ. I see p!ss poor people in Berlin everyday. The poorest neighbourhoods (Wedding and Neukölln in the west and many former eastern districts) are still perfectly safe places to go. Nobody would be afraid of these places (I live in Neukölln myself) and crime would be rare, much rarer than in an equivalent poor area of Dublin: so explain to me why poverty in Berlin does not lead to no go areas or places you'd never set foot in, yet in Dublin (where welfare payments are MUCH higher) the same cannot be said?

Similarly, in my mother's day, most people were pretty poor, my mother's family included (mother had to go to cousins England for secondary school, not at all uncommon in 1950's Ireland) yet crime was NOT rampant: there was respect for the law and the local guard was feared. Ireland has changed dramatically. Poverty has decreased (even those on welfare are better off in 2010 than many working people in the 1950's) overall yet crime has exploded. Many people in Ireland have indeed become savages and I am sick of excuses being made for these people.

So you are saying that the Irish middle class and upper class is on a par with Germany in terms of morality and ethics but it is just the savage poor Irish people who are letting us all down?

Germans have simple philosophies and they stick to them: They do things right no matter how long it takes. The treat others with respect and honesty.

If you compare the poor people of Germany to Ireland and compare the middle classes to germany and Ireland you will see similar relative differences.

You cannot point a big finger at one section of society without pointing it at a society as a whole...and perhaps turning the finger round and pointing it at yourself.

Pittens wrote: »

How are we doing? Absolutely brilliantly. We support the top end with our taxes - the bankers et. al - and the bottom end, too. We go to work. We pay our way. We pay other people's way. Then you are blaming us for criminality? That is the kind of **** I have heard all my life. The non-criminal tax payers are responsible for the criminality against them, because we dont pay enough taxes? People on €40K a year would end the criminality of millionaire Crime Lords if the social welfare bill was higher and they were poorer?

How can anybody believe that Orwellian claptrap.

The average German citizen of average means who sees a social issue will work honestly towards sorting that issue out. The average similar middle class Irish citizen wont.

Throwing money at problems wont fix them: actually fixing them whatever it takes will.

Do you think your average poor person in Ireland is a millionaire crime Lord? Get a grip.

murphaph

T runner wrote: »

So you are saying that the Irish middle class and upper class is on a par with Germany in terms of morality and ethics but it is just the savage poor Irish people who are letting us all down?

Germans have simple philosophies and they stick to them: They do things right no matter how long it takes. The treat others with respect and honesty.

If you compare the poor people of Germany to Ireland and compare the middle classes to germany and Ireland you will see similar relative differences.

You cannot point a big finger at one section of society without pointing it at a society as a whole...and perhaps turning the finger round and pointing it at yourself.

The average German citizen of average means who sees a social issue will work honestly towards sorting that issue out. The average similar middle class Irish citizen wont.

Throwing money at problems wont fix them: actually fixing them whatever it takes will.

Do you think your average poor person in Ireland is a millionaire crime Lord? Get a grip.

Pure waffle there T runner. The average middle class german (I'm going out with one) expects that their government and state agencies will sort out problems with the taxes they pay: hence most middle class germans won't give a red cent to beggars etc.

You sought to blame poverty for crime, I pointed out to you that here in Berlin at least, poor people have more common decency than to resort to crime just because they are poor (and receive much lower benefits than in Ireland).

You are now excusing crime amongst Irish poor and actually blaming it on the hard working, tax compliant middle classes: pure fcuking nonsense.

Cat Melodeon

murphaph wrote: »

Pure waffle there T runner. The average middle class german (I'm going out with one) expects that their government and state agencies will sort out problems with the taxes they pay: hence most middle class germans won't give a red cent to beggars etc.

You sought to blame poverty for crime, I pointed out to you that here in Berlin at least, poor people have more common decency than to resort to crime just because they are poor (and receive much lower benefits than in Ireland).

Bit of waffle yourself if you think that Germany is some crime free paradise. Theft and vandalism are rife in the poorer parts of Berlin (just look at the state of some of the U-Bahn wagons) and it has one of the highest pickpocketing rates in Europe. Any item left unattended is considered fair game and I have witnessed 'respectable' student types in bars and clubs pick up other people's bags and make off with them - the owners weren't watching them so they mustn't want them. I had 4 bikes stolen in the 5 years I lived there. Group violence is also a scary phenomenon there - have you ever gotten caught up in a May Day riot or clashes between Hertha & HSV fans? Germans might be very law-abiding ordinarily but there is a certain minority who if they think they can get away with something they have no conscience at all. Same as any other country and any other section of society really.

AlekSmart

Group violence is also a scary phenomenon there - have you ever gotten caught up in a May Day riot or clashes between Hertha & HSV fans? Germans might be very law-abiding ordinarily but there is a certain minority who if they think they can get away with something they have no conscience at all. Same as any other country and any other section of society really.

So my Berlin busdriver was telling it like it is then....greatest problem from his Busdriving point of view was specifically Fussball related .

I somehow think it this ordinarily thing which may represent the difference in perceptions between our societies ?

Pittens

The average German citizen of average means who sees a social issue will work honestly towards sorting that issue out. The average similar middle class Irish citizen wont.

There is no way to sorting the Traveller issue out. We pay vast amount of money from the the working class and middle income proletariat ( the term middle class is useless) to travellers and the criminality still increases. Germans would have probably been a bit more forceful with German people who didnt work and were - statistically - more inclined to crime than the people who paid for them.

Throwing money at problems wont fix them: actually fixing them whatever it takes will.

So what is the solution. What is the non-racist solution? I have one: get a job.

Do you think your average poor person in Ireland is a millionaire crime Lord? Get a grip.

I dont think the average poor person in Ireland is involved in criminality, that is a sickening bourgeois attack on the working class. vile.

The working poor are statistically the victims of criminality.

On the other hand millionaire criminals exist. Clearly they are not poor, nor relatively poor, nor do they work in shops or in IT. we should be stealing from them. How do you explain that?

Pittens

Anyway I have a solution:

All future halting sites in rich areas only.

Job done.

Thargor

Greaney wrote: »

Okay, so I'm a local authority tenant and I've been living right beside a halting site (in Galway) for 6 years now. I was on the residents assoc. and all that and here's my experience.

1) The first year was hell, their kids bullied ours (in fact my son was eventually bullied so badly I had to call the local authority and their school)

2) The council had moved one of the families into our estate. The domestics got so bad (herself would tell him that we were calling them 'Knackers', I think it was to deflect the abuse) that it resulted in the husband running around one night with a knife and banging on peoples doors and pushing the doors in if they were ajar (folk talked him down) and the police arrived, he ran off. Another night he finally, actually assaulted someone. There was a case. The residents, very frightened signed a letter to say how terrified they were. It went to court. (Actually, there were a few more incidences than this but it's just too long winded)

The council supported us best they could, some folk were intimidated and backed out.... to cut a long story short, it resulted in the second 'exclusion order' in the history of the state against this guy. The family moved to another estate.

Then for 5 years, peace and quiet untill....

3) They tried a land grab!!! Yes folks, the brother of the guy who'd been banned hired a guy with a digger and began, one friday evening,
building a wall in the middle of our park to put trailers in!! I had to confront yer man (not pleasent). The council and Guards came the next morning, they were totally stunned. I was advised not to spend the night in my home!!

I've not heard what's happened to that case, I know the council were pressing charges. Yer man who orchestrated it turned up on my doorstep a couple of weeks later with members of a traveller support group (all traveller women) who realised in the course of the exchange that he was dodgy.

The women were terrific, and pointed out to him they wanted to 'build bridges' with the settled folk, not animosity. I appreciated that and they gave me their number.

I've had reasonable normal experiences with travellers, I've had bad experiences with settled folk, just like most. But when I've had bad experiences with travellers, they've been extraordinarily bad!! Seriously, to be told to leave my house for my own safety by two councillors and a housing officer!!

On the education note, I believe NUIG have access programmes for minority groups. They target a different group every year. A few years ago they focused on travellers and were astonished to recieve no enquireies to the college after they had send material out to all the traveller groups. I've tried googleing it for a link but I can't find the material, in fairness, I heard it in a television interview by a member of NUIG so...

I bet that was Rahoon was it?

BlaasForRafa

AlekSmart wrote: »

So my Berlin busdriver was telling it like it is then....greatest problem from his Busdriving point of view was specifically Fussball related .

I somehow think it this ordinarily thing which may represent the difference in perceptions between our societies ?

Ah sure don't worry, the pavee "its not the travellers fault, blame the meeja/settled society" brigade have arrived on the scene now to tell us its our fault and that criminality in the travellers community is alright because they are oppressed.

murphaph

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Bit of waffle yourself if you think that Germany is some crime free paradise. Theft and vandalism are rife in the poorer parts of Berlin (just look at the state of some of the U-Bahn wagons) and it has one of the highest pickpocketing rates in Europe. Any item left unattended is considered fair game and I have witnessed 'respectable' student types in bars and clubs pick up other people's bags and make off with them - the owners weren't watching them so they mustn't want them. I had 4 bikes stolen in the 5 years I lived there. Group violence is also a scary phenomenon there - have you ever gotten caught up in a May Day riot or clashes between Hertha & HSV fans? Germans might be very law-abiding ordinarily but there is a certain minority who if they think they can get away with something they have no conscience at all. Same as any other country and any other section of society really.

I never said Berlin was crime free and you're contradicting your own point with the bit in bold: you and T runner sought to blame crime on poverty, yet you now admit that middle class types are capable of theft?!

You are actually supporting my point with the above: being poor here in Berlin does not drive people to crime. People make do and retain their common decency and with it their dignity. People who resort to crime because they are poorer (in Ireland there are very very few people living in abject poverty, it's impossible with the high benefit rates) and those who excuse their resorting to crime have no dignity in my eyes.

As for may day and football related violence (sounds like you placed yourself deliberately in harms way by the way): one off incidents which are becoming rarer and rarer...may day this year was very low key, so while Berlin becomes less crime ridden, Ireland goes the other way and we can blame it all on the recession!

FTA69

murphaph wrote: »

You are actually supporting my point with the above: being poor here in Berlin does not drive people to crime. People make do and retain their common decency and with it their dignity.

Yeah and being poor in Ireland doesn't neccessarily mean you're going to turn into a bloody criminal either murphaph.

murphaph

FTA69 wrote: »

Yeah and being poor in Ireland doesn't neccessarily mean you're going to turn into a bloody criminal either murphaph.

Are you saying poor areas in Ireland have the same levels of crime as wealthy areas?

FTA69

murphaph wrote: »

Are you saying poor areas in Ireland have the same levels of crime as wealthy areas?

No, they obviously have higher levels of crime due to poverty and marginalisation contributing to the growth of crime. That's a trend that's internationally evident across the board (even in Germany), it isn't simply a case of working-class Irish people just being scumbags.

murphaph

FTA69 wrote: »

No, they obviously have higher levels of crime due to poverty and marginalisation contributing to the growth of crime. That's a trend that's internationally evident across the board (even in Germany), it isn't simply a case of working-class Irish people just being scumbags.

Massive leap you've made there. You can't seem to make up your mind if poor people are more inclined to crime or not!