Soccer Forum Ban - Has a precedent been set?

Peyton Manning

Before I go into this, I just want to say that yes, I have contacted the Sports Cmods and have yet to receive an answer. I'm not in any way demanding that I should have had an answer already - I only contacted them last night. But as Im sure most of you know, the World Cup is reaching it's climax. I have been a regular contributor on the soccer forum for the whole competition and am absolutely appalled that my access has been removed so close to the climax of the competition. I have started this thread so soon after contacting the Cmods as I would like this resolved asap as I would like to be contributing once again to the World Cup discussion on the soccer forum. (What Im trying to say, Im not complaining that the Cmods have not replied yet. Its Sunday, I completely understand).

On Sunday 27th June, soccer moderator Thanx 4 The Fish and I had the following exchange via PM.

Archimedes wrote:

Hey T4TF,

Unlucky result today, maybe next time! Was just wondering if you could help me though. My photoshop skills are lacking, to put it politely. I see you have a photoshopped sig so was wondering could you give me some advice on how to crop this image:



I'd like to emphasize the disappointment and embarrassment on the face of Ashley Cole, and somehow contrast with the delight and "oh this is so easy" look on Thomas Muller's face. But like I said, my PS skills are a bit crap so I'm not sure how.

Regards, and get well soon,

Archie

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

Where do you think I am from and why do you think England losing in a WC game would have any have any impact on me at all son?

I am no good at photoshop just as you are pretty shocking at trolling. Perhaps just as with my sig, you could consider getting somebody who is ahy good at it to give it a go.:pac:

As regards the signature.

Archimedes wrote:

No worries. Just thought you could help me. Keep well

Your buddy,

Archie

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

Yeah, the give away for me was that I do not have an image in my sig, what was it for you?

I am currently just making sure that attempting to troll by PM is still infractable then I will be back on to you.

I do not really consider myself your friend but whatever floats your boat.

Thanx

Archimedes wrote:

No idea what these trolling accusations are about, but no worries. Keep well

Your buddy,

Archie

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

Will let those in the know decide, I am staying well clear of this one, I am just reporting the instance, you really let yourself down when you said you wanted me to look at it because I had a picture in my sig when in fact I do not though.

Just to set the stall for you, I am not English, I am Irish, I do not care if they win or lose and will let you know once I get a decision on your infraction for attempting to troll albeit a shocking one.

Archimedes wrote:

Once again, no idea what these trolling accusations are about. I know you for a number of things, one of which was your "Justice for the 96" sig. But anyway, no worries, and keep well

Your pal,

Archie

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

Yeah right. Will let you know, Oh, BTW this infraction would be your sixth.

Archimedes wrote:

No worries, keep well!

Your friend,

Archie

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

You too.

For the record, T4TF seems to think I think he is English. This is not true, I think everybody on the Soccer Forum knows he is Irish. He often refers to England as "they" and Ireland as "we". So I'm not sure why he has brought this up. As for him not having a sig in his image, he had quite a distinctive signature for some time, so much so in fact, that I parodied it in a popular "Parallel Universe" thread a while ago. When he removed it, I do not know but I was under the impression he still had it.

This "trolling" accusation (for his definition of trolling, I see as light hearted banter especially seeing as soccer forum mods have previously been asked in feedback to have thicker skin) has resulted in my 6th infraction in the past year on the soccer forum, and thus a 6 month ban (incidentally, 4 of those infractions came from T4TF).

My issue is - what has this PM got to do with the soccer forum? Why have I been banned from the soccer forum when:

a) I have not broken a single rule in the soccer forum charter to receive this infraction, and
b) it did not take place in the soccer forum, and thus has nothing to do with my position there

Is it because we both post there? If that's the case, why haven't I been banned from other forums we both us? Is it because he is a moderator in the SF? If so, why haven't I been banned from the Interior Design & Decoration forum which he also moderates?

The answer to this question is obvious to anybody why uses the soccer forum. I have been banned because T4TF has a severe issue with Manchester United fans and anti-Liverpool fans in general. If Cmods or admins were to work with the other soccer forum moderators, Im sure they would find an appalling large percentage of T4TF's infractions have gone to Manchester United fans alone, while supporters of his fellow club Liverpool escape unscathed. This was as apparent as ever during the Uruguay - Ghana match thread the other night, when Uruguay player Luis Suarez handled the ball. He got abuse from a soccer forum member (who called him a bastard). This member was subsequently given an infraction. Likewise was another poster who called that previous poster a bastard. However, a prominent Liverpool poster who called Suarez a "prick" at the same moment in the match, and another Ghana player a "clown" moments later received no infractions despite it being brought to T4TF's attention the incosistency of his moderation.

So there are two issues I would like to open the floor to.

1. Why have I been banned from the soccer forum for an incident that has nothing to do with it? Will all posters who receive infractions for PM-related incidents be banned from the forum they are most prominent in as a result, or is this a one-off incident?

2. Why has T4TF's completley biased moderation not being investigated further? A large percentage of the soccer forum are unhappy with his actions. Im aware Boards is not a democracy. If it were, a vote of no confidence would have been passed a long time ago.

Furthermore, the timing of this thread coincides with the annual review of the soccer forum's charter and operations. I feel now was the right time to bring this to the attention of Boards.

El Weirdo

Pretty sure that quoting the PMs isn't gonna help your case if you didn't get T4TF's permission.

Also, why don't you just wait for the cmods to reply like everyone else has to?

Jazzy

ffs. they ban one of the actual really good posters on soccer but the idiot trolls are still there.

they have had YEARS to sort this sh1t out. one of the former mods wanted to sort out all the established trolls, another was blasse towards it but seemed to know of its existence... im unsure of the rest, but I reckon they know all about the novelty trolls but because no one has tried sorting them out before, they seem to be afraid to now.

that is f**king ridiculous that archi has been banned when the mods cant even sort out the casual day to day trolling. as said, its been going on years and if they are so quick to ban archi because t4tf QQ'd because of some pm then you have to wonder wtf they are doing.

sort it the f**k out lads

Overheal

El Weirdo wrote: »

Pretty sure that quoting the PMs isn't gonna help your case if you didn't get T4TF's permission.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055951035

DeVore wrote:

PMs during dispute resolution.

Controversially, I think that dispute resolution should REQUIRE permission to review and publish the content of PM's relating to the issue being disputed. If not, sorry, we cant/wont help you. Its a question of "put up or shut up", and if someone ties our hands they cant complain if we are unable to assist them.

In a court of law I can present evidence that is massively invasive to your privacy (private dectective work, phone logs etc etc). So I think this follows that proceedure.

In contrast, Pm's will be ASSUMED to be private outside of HD/Reporting and are not for publication without prior consent.

Though in my reading of this I feel like DeV is referring to Mods publishing Dispute PMs without the User's consent. I could be wrong though, if this languini could be cleared up.

Also though OP I feel I should add that its been always my understand that Mods can do exactly that, and ban or infract you in the course of a PM or even your Signature if it proves to be abusive.

Christianity Charter, penned by Franny Cradock wrote:

9. The terms of this Charter apply not just to the bodies of posts but also to the text and images contained in signature lines. Where deemed appropriate the forum moderators will edit offending signature lines out of posts in the Christianity forum.

And if you remember the SOTS episode just a month prior, I think you'd agree that Mods deal with enough crap via PM that the abuse of that system should not grant a user immunity from action, especially where it revolves around a particular forum.

Also for as long as I can remember, acting like a dick in a PM toward a mod has done everything from extend peoples' bans to getting them sitebanned. Though in fairness, acting like a dick to anyone in a PM, you can expect consequences. If for example someone mocked me about something I posted in PI, I would hope they would get banned from PI.

eagle eye

Jeez if thats all the pms then somebody flew off the handle pretty quick.

El Weirdo

Overheal wrote: »

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055951035
Though in my reading of this I feel like DeV is referring to Mods publishing Dispute PMs without the User's consent. I could be wrong though, if this languini could be cleared up.

That's how I read it too.

AckwelFoley

This is how i see it.

As it has been presented it seems that conveniently t4tf is been very harsh and banning you unnecessarly.. thats as it has been presented, however, the reality is that there are 2 sides to every story and to be honest, im going to go with a feeling i have that there is more to this than meets the eye.

Now, as for the trolling/banning.. if infact this is going to be considered as trolling of PM's, yes you are correct you shouldnt have been banned from soccer... you infact should have been site banned - however to be honest - all things being equal and if this is infact your first instance of sending a pm to this mod and it is preceived as trolling - t4tf needs to get a thicker skin - it looks to me more like, if not a genuine request (which i have my strong doubts it was) its no more that a bit of harmless ribbing and the label of trolling is being a little harsh..


Having said all that, i dont know the "history" here - while keeping in mind you have had 6 bans already..

copacetic

looks like a piss poor attempt at trolling/being a dick via unsolicited pm, gets an infraction and user already has a pile so they get a ban. simples and pretty easy to predict. posting the pms here shows the OP isn't on the level imo.

also shouldn't this be in helpdesk?

KevIRL

Not totally OT, but I guess a little forgive me if so.

The 6 month ban from the SF, not just in this case but in general - Seems a bit harsh, in fact extremely harsh. Is such a draconian measure really needed? 6 months is a loooooooong time especially to have as part of a procedure. For an extreme case I guess I could understand, but surely if someone has done something so bad to deserve a 6 month ban then it probably should be a permaban. Have many other users fallen foul of this procedure?

Thanx 4 The Fish

3 soccer mods and a Cmod were involved in agreeing you should be warned but don't let facts get in the way of another Archi witch hunt, I did not make the decision on my own as I knew you would start beating the anti Man U bias drum (just as you have recently in a separate PM you sent me but have surprisingly not posted).

You were not banned for your PM, just infracted. That your warning pushed you over the limit is a separate matter.

BTW, nice of you to publish the PM exchange, saves me the hassle, would have been courteous to ask mind.

Overheal

KevIRL wrote: »

Not totally OT, but I guess a little forgive me if so.

The 6 month ban from the SF, not just in this case but in general - Seems a bit harsh, in fact extremely harsh. Is such a draconian measure really needed? 6 months is a loooooooong time especially to have as part of a procedure. For an extreme case I guess I could understand, but surely if someone has done something so bad to deserve a 6 month ban then it probably should be a permaban. Have many other users fallen foul of this procedure?

I got a 6 month ban from feedback once.

Look at me now

sometimes I can still hear the kittens. meowing.


6 months is an exceptionally long time to be banned in relative respect to the site. But it's not entirely draconian.

Also you have to remember Soccer is in effect a gated community and you agree to the conditions before entry.

Peyton Manning

Of course it wasn't a genuine request, it was a bloody pisstake. A very soft one at that. I would have thought the lack of vulgar language and the presence of smiley faces show that?

But my original question remains, what has it got to do with a soccer forum ban?

And for the record, some of those previous infractions were very harsh. Given recent developments, T4TF seems to have no problem digging up old infractions for current issues, so if a mod could retrieve the post I was warned for in the John Terry Caption Competition thread, they'll see how ricidulous that was in what was a light hearted thread. (It was the OP, since edited by T4TF).

Peyton Manning

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

3 soccer mods and a Cmod were involved in agreeing you should be warned but don't let facts get in the way of another Archi witch hunt, I did not make the decision on my own as I knew you would start beating the anti Man U bias drum (just as you have recently in a separate PM you sent me but have surprisingly not posted).

You were not banned for your PM, just infracted. That your warning pushed you over the limit is a separate matter.

BTW, nice of you to publish the PM exchange, saves me the hassle, would have been courteous to ask mind.

The infraction is not the issue, the issue is why did it result in a soccer forum infraction? The PM had absolutely nothing to do with forum and no rules in the soccer forum charter were broken.

Overheal

Archimedes wrote: »

The infraction is not the issue, the issue is why did it result in a soccer forum infraction? The PM had absolutely nothing to do with forum and no rules in the soccer forum charter were broken.

In fairness the exchange had everything to do with soccer.

As for site/profile infractions, that I don't know about. I don't think its commonplace.

Peyton Manning

Overheal wrote: »

In fairness the exchange had everything to do with soccer.

As for site/profile infractions, that I don't know about. I don't think its commonplace.

It also had everything to do with Photoshop, yet I still had access to the Digital Darkroom forum.

I know what you're saying, but had I been ribbing him about a band he likes, would I have been banned from the music forum?

Overheal

Archimedes wrote: »

It also had everything to do with Photoshop, yet I still had access to the Digital Darkroom forum.

I know what you're saying, but had I been ribbing him about a band he likes, would I have been banned from the music forum?

...

Of course it wasn't a genuine request, it was a bloody pisstake.

A pisstake of photoshop or justin bieber?

Peyton Manning

I see the point you're making, but the fact remains that this occurred via PM and not via the soccer forum. I should not be banned from there.

mike65

Why do you imagine hassle (at whatever level) via a PM gets you off the hook?

It appears you well knew T4TF might get the hump yet you did it anyway.

Jazzy

whats that I hear? is it the sound of wagons circling?


T4TF has fuked up because he was overly sensitive and crucially, wanted to hand out some sort of infraction.. because hes doing the 'im a big man ive been on boards ages who the f**k is this trying to rip on ME via pm ill show him and then when he complains ill get the others to back me up' act.
this has nothing to do with the right and wrongs of the site, its to do with the fact that T4TF got a bit miffed and couldnt take things in good spirits so hes using what weight he has here to come down on a good and valued poster in the soccer forum.


yes yes, you will use words and sh1t to tell me how wrong i am and the usual overthinking and compounding of the issue to make one party look better and the other worse, but what i have explained above is what has happened and if you try saying differently you are taking the p1ss
dont play me and other posters the fool. we can see it clear as day

Peyton Manning

mike65 wrote: »

Why do you imagine hassle (at whatever level) via a PM gets you off the hook?

It appears you well knew T4TF might get the hump yet you did it anyway.

I don't imagine it will get me off the hook. If it leads to repercussions on a Boards-wide scale, then so be it but the moderator in question, with whatever backing he has received, has acted incorrectly.

Peyton Manning

I should also add that there was a clean slate of yellow cards as of July 1st on the soccer forums, so my previous 5 infractions would have been wiped cleanl, but this happened before July 1st. T4TF obviously saw a chance to get rid of me with the deadline looming. Yes, I gave him an opportunity to make a mountain out of a molehill, but he has still acted incorrectly and this SF ban is completely unjustified. The fact that T4TF has been reviewing previous infractions of other users shows that he is trying to get rid of who he wants. Yes, it's by the book (not in my case) but its completely unsporting and against the very solid level of comradery amongst the regulars in the soccer forum. Its an absolute disgrace.

Headshot

TFTF bans a man utd fan, well im shocked at that

I was banned from the sf for 6 months, when you receive 6 yellow cards your supposed to be banned but i received 7 but TFTF banned me last night

I should of been banned in april but heres something that might interest people, i posted somthing in this thread and an ex mod just gave me an on thread warning and later on that night T4TF gave me a infraction but I got an on thread warning from a mod, T4FT went out of his way to give me an infraction, that for me reeks and the ex mod who shall remain nameless (because iv respect for them) told me he was disappointed that T4TF went over his head

the sf has improved alot but far from perfect, but as long as mods like T4TF remain in office it wont reach that perfect level, the guy is poison to the sf

so thats 2 man utd fans gone now,banned by the same mod. Fellow utd fans better watch their back

jaykay74

sees like a case of humour bypass to me. place will be poorer for it.

Peyton Manning

I also want to make it clear this has nothing to do with the team T4TF supports, it's how he deals with supporters of rival clubs that is the issue. For what it's worth, there was a thread recently for users to nominate themself for Soccer Forum mod, and my favourite amongst them all was a Liverpool fan, so it has NOTHING to do with who he supports.

Overheal

Jazzy wrote: »

whats that I hear? is it the sound of wagons circling?


T4TF has fuked up because he was overly sensitive and crucially, wanted to hand out some sort of infraction.. because hes doing the 'im a big man ive been on boards ages who the f**k is this trying to rip on ME via pm ill show him and then when he complains ill get the others to back me up' act.
this has nothing to do with the right and wrongs of the site, its to do with the fact that T4TF got a bit miffed and couldnt take things in good spirits so hes using what weight he has here to come down on a good and valued poster in the soccer forum.


yes yes, you will use words and sh1t to tell me how wrong i am and the usual overthinking and compounding of the issue to make one party look better and the other worse, but what i have explained above is what has happened and if you try saying differently you are taking the p1ss
dont play me and other posters the fool. we can see it clear as day

You really do seem to be making things up for yourself. For instance T4TF already stated the Mods and CMod were consulted before issuing an infraction. In spite of this you choose to believe T4TF acted by himself and only got the other Mods to back him after the fact, despite everything in T4TF's statement and the PM exchange published by Archimedes suggesting otherwise:

T4TF wrote:

I am currently just making sure that attempting to troll by PM is still infractable then I will be back on to you.

T4TF wrote:

Will let those in the know decide, I am staying well clear of this one, I am just reporting the instance

T4TF wrote:

3 soccer mods and a Cmod were involved in agreeing you should be warned but don't let facts get in the way of another Archi witch hunt, I did not make the decision on my own as I knew you would start beating the anti Man U bias drum

Thanx 4 The Fish

I am not sure how many more ways this needs to be said but I asked the forum mods if they thought it was infraction worthy. The cmods were asked too. The decision was, I felt, not just mine to make as I was the target of your pettiness. So I asked the soccer mods and the Cmods for their opinions. You were infracted on the back of that, this has nothing to do with the team you support or the team I support for that matter. But again, do not let facts get in the way of a good withc hunt?

copacetic

Jazzy wrote: »

because hes doing the 'im a big man ive been on boards ages who the f**k is this trying to rip on ME via pm ill show him and then when he complains ill get the others to back me up' act.

Thats's quite a mouthful for an act, it'll never make broadway unless it's made a bit snappier...:(

Jazzy

Overheal wrote: »

You really do seem to be making things up for yourself. For instance T4TF already stated the Mods and CMod were consulted before issuing an infraction. In spite of this you choose to believe T4TF acted by himself and only got the other Mods to back him after the fact, despite everything in T4TF's statement and the PM exchange published by Archimedes suggesting otherwise.

yup. because thats what happened. hes the chief mod and longest serving mod. he felt miffed and knew he could get backing, so he acted. its all going to be whitewashed of course, as thats what happens.. or do we really have to list off things that have been whitewashed here ?
its not like mistakes never happen and that if you know the right people you can pretty much get what you like now is it?

Peyton Manning

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

I am not sure how many more ways this needs to be said but I asked the forum mods if they thought it was infraction worthy. The cmods were asked too. The decision was, I felt, not just mine to make as I was the target of your pettiness. So I asked the soccer mods and the Cmods for their opinions. You were infracted on the back of that, this has nothing to do with the team you support or the team I support for that matter. But again, do not let facts get in the way of a good withc hunt?

You know this has everything to do with who I support and how vocal I am about that. No other soccer mod would have gone to such measures as to get a ban and you know it. Hide behind the red tape all you want, the majority of users on the soccer forum know what you're like and see right through your actions. I await the Cmods and other soccer mods who decided a soccer forum ban was fair to explain their decision.

Was it you who suggested a soccer forum ban? Or one of the other mods/Cmods?

Headshot

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

I am not sure how many more ways this needs to be said but I asked the forum mods if they thought it was infraction worthy. The cmods were asked too. The decision was, I felt, not just mine to make as I was the target of your pettiness. So I asked the soccer mods and the Cmods for their opinions. You were infracted on the back of that, this has nothing to do with the team you support or the team I support for that matter. But again, do not let facts get in the way of a good withc hunt?

concerning my 6th yellow card and what the ex mod said

"Tbh I'm a bit annoyed cause I felt like I had dealt with the thread but someone decided to go over my hand and hand out the infraction"

you see, you went over a fellows mods head to get your boot in, but thats you all over

GLaDOS

Jazzy wrote: »

hes the chief mod and longest serving mod.

Cmods are higher in the chain of command