Soccer Forum Ban - Has a precedent been set?

gandalf

Jazzy wrote: »

and was it really such a big deal as to infract at all? people accusing archi of causing a drama should really look both ways.. if t4tf was in some way chilled out then it wouldnt have a big deal in the first place. he decided not to be chilled out about it and maybe people should ask why that is..

Why did he send those PM's then? When he sent the PMs he started the wheels in motion.

Why should someone who gives up their free time be subjected to harassment by a poster who has a chequered history on the forum he mods? I know when I modded there is no way I would have entertained that. The difference is when that happened with me I got the admins to site ban the smart ass(ah the days before infractions and warnings when things were simpler).

@ Archimedes headshots thread in the helpdesk is a mess. Basically it breaks down that he is victimised because he is a united fan. In reality the last two infractions he has are one for backseat modding and two for calling some one a name.

Jazzy

gandalf wrote: »

Why did he send those PM's then? When he sent the PMs he started the wheels in motion.

Why should someone who gives up their free time be subjected to harassment by a poster who has a chequered history on the forum he mods? I know when I modded there is no way I would have entertained that. The difference is when that happened with me I got the admins to site ban the smart ass(ah the days before infractions and warnings when things were simpler).

@ Archimedes headshots thread in the helpdesk is a mess. Basically it breaks down that he is victimised because he is a united fan. In reality the last two infractions he has are one for backseat modding and two for calling some one a name.

its hardly harassment, its messing about with soccer results. anyone who follows football gets this day in day out so its nothing to do with t4tf being a moderator. he just happens to be one and just happens to have the power to shaft sum1 who tries it on him.
and if you would get some of your old quake playing mates to siteban someone over that, then thank fuk you aint modding anymore tbh. it was a complete over reaction to something that is completely harmless.. you can try saying otherwise and try saying just how bad archi was for sending those oh so nasty pm's, but no.. it was very very mild. hey, isnt boards often compared to a bar for no particular reason in these instances? if so, then what sort of ultra violent nazi bar would I have to go to for them to kick me out over making fun of soccer results?

Headshot

gandalf wrote: »

@ Archimedes headshots thread in the helpdesk is a mess. Basically it breaks down that he is victimised because he is a united fan. In reality the last two infractions he has are one for backseat modding and two for calling some one a name.

a mess? thats not for you to decide, my thread firmly shows a mod jumping the gun at a poster he doesnt like and i believe its because im a utd fan. I never done anything to him, i know he has priors in the past with utd fans and and if you read my helpdesk post properly you would see its quite a clearly to see, ignoring another mods judgement, infracting a joke

so please dont give me that bs again

Chucky the tree

Headshot wrote: »

a mess? thats not for you to decide, my thread firmly shows a mod jumping the gun at a poster he doesnt like and i believe its because im a troll I never done anything to him, i know he has priors in the past with utd fans and and if you read my helpdesk post properly you would see its quite a clearly to see, ignoring another mods judgement, infracting a joke

so please dont give me that bs again

FYP there.

Peyton Manning

Mods, Cmods, Admins - I apologise for my actions and any fuss caused. I am content that my infraction has been made a profile infraction rather than a forum specific infraction and am happy with the action you have taken.

I still maintain T4TF over-reacted, but yes, I was "trolling" (in my opinion, trolling means something more sinister than what I've done but if the consensus in here is I've trolled, then who am I to argue).

I've informed Gordon that whether the soccer ban is overturned or not, I will be taking a 6 months hiatus from the soccer forum so in regards to my specific case, that should be the end of the matter.

Headshot

Chucky the tree wrote: »

FYP there.

a troll, me a troll. Seriously?

I honestly dont know where your coming up with that, im never been infracted for being a troll for your information and i cant stand trolls myself, so your dead wrong the Chucky. The only time i was ever troll when i joined the sf but that was 6 years ago and iv very much changed.

I think your FYP is a pathetic attempt of getting a reaction

Jazzy

Archimedes wrote: »

I've informed Gordon that whether the soccer ban is overturned or not, I will be taking a 6 months hiatus from the soccer forum so in regards to my specific case, that should be the end of the matter.

um, why? when there is so much unreadable nonsense in there already, why is one of the few posters who actually contribute stuff you want to read leaving?
if its pressure due to t4tf getting in a humpty and his mod/ex mod buddies supporting him then I would just like to say well fukin done to them, really have your priorities in order there lads....

gandalf

Jazzy wrote: »

its hardly harassment, its messing about with soccer results. anyone who follows football gets this day in day out so its nothing to do with t4tf being a moderator. he just happens to be one and just happens to have the power to shaft sum1 who tries it on him.
and if you would get some of your old quake playing mates to siteban someone over that, then thank fuk you aint modding anymore tbh. it was a complete over reaction to something that is completely harmless.. you can try saying otherwise and try saying just how bad archi was for sending those oh so nasty pm's, but no.. it was very very mild. hey, isnt boards often compared to a bar for no particular reason in these instances? if so, then what sort of ultra violent nazi bar would I have to go to for them to kick me out over making fun of soccer results?

How do you know its not harrassment? Thats just your opinion.

Is Archimedes a friend of T4TF then?

Why send him a PM?

If not does Archimedes normally send random PM's to people who aren't his friends?

Quite frankly if that's the case its weird!

What did he hope to achieve from the PM?

As for all the other crap you posted my answer is simple if someone is a troublemaker they tend not to change and need to be dealt with harshly. Given this user has prior history not only on soccer but as stated by --amadeus--earlier in other forums for trolling and acting the maggot that is what would direct my actions.

I tended to give people who normally didn't step out of line the benefit of the doubt. However for those that kept skirting close to the edge I dealt with them harshly because they should know better. That comes from moderating on boards for 11 years on forums from Humanities, Sport, Politics, Soccer, Airsoft and Photography and Cat Mod of the Society section.

Peyton Manning

Jazzy wrote: »

um, why? when there is so much unreadable nonsense in there already, why is one of the few posters who actually contribute stuff you want to read leaving?
if its pressure due to t4tf getting in a humpty and his mod/ex mod buddies supporting him then I would just like to say well fukin done to them, really have your priorities in order there lads....

Nope, and I don't want to try make myself out to be a martyr or anything. Far from that. I really only wanted the soccer forum infraction removed, and the correct course of action taken. This has caused a lot of hassle, and if I brought that on myself with the initial PM, then it's my fault.

I'm taking a step back for 6 months, and I'll be back far more constructive and obedient once that time is up. I could do with the time off regardless because of "real world" things that need to be taken care of. If this thread needs to be locked, then go ahead. My issue has been resolved.

tbh

Headshot wrote: »

I think your FYP is a pathetic attempt of getting a reaction

Seems there's a lot of it going around. I believe the standard advice is to get a sense of humour and just chill out

Chucky the tree

Headshot wrote: »

a troll, me a troll. Seriously?

I honestly dont know where your coming up with that, im never been infracted for being a troll for your information and i cant stand trolls myself, so your dead wrong the Chucky. The only time i was ever troll when i joined the sf but that was 6 years ago and iv very much changed.

I think your FYP is a pathetic attempt of getting a reaction

Depends what your definition of a troll is. Someone who posts something on purpose to annoy someone is pretty close to the mark for me and it's clearly that's what you've been doing when you've got the infractions.

eagle eye

Feedback is such a joke, helpdesk is worse I think. Can all you kids and ego maniacs on both sides please shut up.

Based on what has been said by other former soccer mods here it seems T4TF does not have a problem with United fans at all.
Tbh I don't see why a person would want to give their time to moderating a forum when all they are getting in return is disrespect from members.

I have to add though that maybe T4TF is a little gung-ho with infractions. Its not nice to go over a fellow mods head and issue infractions. That shows a lack of respect for your fellow mod imo.

Headshot

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Depends what your definition of a troll is. Someone who posts something on purpose to annoy someone is pretty close to the mark for me and it's clearly that's what you've been doing when you've got the infractions.

oh sorry chucky you must know every infraction iv gotten oh wait there isnt one in there for trolling

here ya go good fella my infractions
there's back seat modding, off topic posts, issue with a user being a re-reg, Breach of Forum Charter (thats the lazy bum) big insult that is, you better watch your back chucky or ill call you that :pac:

gandalf

eagle eye wrote: »

Based on what has been said by other former soccer mods here it seems T4TF does not have a problem with United fans at all.

Actually I have no idea if that's the case or not but nothing posted here shows me he has.

Tbh I don't see why a person would want to give their time to moderating a forum when all they are getting in return is disrespect from members.

Disrespect from certain members.It happens on most forums on boards.

I have to add though that maybe T4TF is a little gung-ho with infractions. Its not nice to go over a fellow mods head and issue infractions. That shows a lack of respect for your fellow mod imo.

Well don't know the background to that but sometimes mods do trip over each other. It doesn't smack of disrespect at all. More than likely two mods responding to a reported post at different times.

Jazzy

tbh wrote: »

Seems there's a lot of it going around. I believe the standard advice is to get a sense of humour and just chill out

and you would be 100% right

and yeah it is weird gandalf, but its not harrasment. it was a big huge over reaction no matter what way you look at it. "but wont someone please think of the moderators!" (oh and btw thaed, being a mod is nowhere near the same level of giving then being a volunteer for the order of malta, but since this is a thread of some things being put in the best possible light, and others the worst I like your addition to this threads theme ), that doesnt cut it.
as a wise man once said,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EY7lYRneHc

eagle eye

gandalf wrote: »

Actually I have no idea if that's the case or not but nothing posted here shows me he has.

LuckyLloyd and Dub13 have said it on this thread.

gandalf wrote: »

Disrespect from certain members.It happens on most forums on boards.

Well T4TF is getting it from a lot of prominant forum members it seems.

gandalf wrote: »

Well don't know the background to that but sometimes mods do trip over each other. It doesn't smack of disrespect at all. More than likely two mods responding to a reported post at different times.

That clearly was not the case in the Xavi thing.

gandalf

TBH Jazzy if I got a pm from someone who wasn't a friend like that I would wonder about the senders sanity more than anything else.

As I said you cannot say its harassment or not for anyone other than yourself. No number of youtube links can change that.

gandalf

eagle eye wrote: »

LuckyLloyd and Dub13 have said it on this thread.

They have said that he is Anti-United in his moderating?

Well T4TF is getting it from a lot of prominant forum members it seems.

Whats a lot though? 10, 20, 30?

That clearly was not the case in the Xavi thing.

What Xavi thing. Please provide a link if you are going to reference to something.

Jazzy

gandalf wrote: »

TBH Jazzy if I got a pm from someone who wasn't a friend like that I would wonder about the senders sanity more than anything else.

As I said you cannot say its harassment or not for anyone other than yourself. No number of youtube links can change that.

then why didnt he give a profile infraction like what should and now has been done? t4tf choose to see it as harrasment as he wanted to, as that meant he could get archi banned.. its as clear as day, he choose to over react and then he went to find out the absolute maximum punishment he could give, thats not cool and tbh, its kinda being a d1ck (and theres a rule against that isnt there? or when is that one brought up again? its a general rule or something but is only really used when it suits... strange that)
and if that really, truly is harrasment, then bloody hell... that is some fuked up ideas on what harrasment actually is (que dictionary ya?)

gandalf

Jazzy wrote: »

then why didnt he give a profile infraction like what should and now has been done? t4tf choose to see it as harrasment as he wanted to, as that meant he could get archi banned.. its as clear as day, he choose to over react and then he went to find out the absolute maximum punishment he could give, thats not cool and tbh, its kinda being a d1ck (and theres a rule against that isnt there? or when is that one brought up again? its a general rule or something but is only really used when it suits... strange that)
and if that really, truly is harrasment, then bloody hell... that is some fuked up ideas on what harrasment actually is (que dictionary ya?)

TBH T4TF shouldn't have given anything I have said that already earlier in this thread. One of the other mods should have carried out what ever punishment they decided.

Again why not carry out the maximum punishment on a poster who has a history across boards of acting the d!ck (as you put it). They already have a very good idea of what is acceptable and not acceptable.

And do you think its acceptable that a user who is not your friend sends you weird PM's. I certainly don't.

Jazzy

gandalf wrote: »

TBH T4TF shouldn't have given anything I have said that already earlier in this thread. One of the other mods should have carried out what ever punishment they decided.

Again why not carry out the maximum punishment on a poster who has a history across boards of acting the d!ck (as you put it). They already have a very good idea of what is acceptable and not acceptable.

And do you think its acceptable that a user who is not your friend sends you weird PM's. I certainly don't.

weird, but not punishable. nothing wrong with being weird
why not carry out the max punishment? cos its clearly uncalled for, as is said - its only being weird. dont worry though, i can read between the lines sure hasnt des said it in this thread already?

gandalf

Jazzy wrote: »

weird, but not punishable. nothing wrong with being weird
why not carry out the max punishment? cos its clearly uncalled for, as is said - its only being weird. dont worry though, i can read between the lines sure hasnt des said it in this thread already?

Its unwanted and unsolicited and the only reason he sent it was because the receiver was a moderator of Soccer.

Then given the tone in the other pms it was obvious that he was trying to get a rise out of T4TF. In that case it did warrant being dealt with. This guy is not an innocent he has form on Soccer and other forums on boards. The OP wanted to get a reaction and unfortunately T4TF gave him one. The OP then got his chance to jump up on the cross and plead innocence.

bonkey

gandalf wrote: »

Again why not carry out the maximum punishment on a poster who has a history across boards of acting the d!ck (as you put it). They already have a very good idea of what is acceptable and not acceptable.

You always did play the Bad Cop to my Good Cop

All joking aside...I'm not going to pretend to know what the correct reaction should have been. I do think, however, that between the parties involved, an acceptable solution has been found for this case.

As for the broader question of how this type of stuff should be dealt with...I'm not sure we can define hard-and-fast rules, beyond saying that the Admin team have no sympathy for people causing others grief or stirring **** via PM....regardless of whether its a mod or not.

eagle eye

gandalf wrote: »

They have said that he is Anti-United in his moderating?



Whats a lot though? 10, 20, 30?



What Xavi thing. Please provide a link if you are going to reference to something.

1. no the opposite
2. More than 3.
3. Keep up man its been posted by headshot earlier.

gandalf

eagle eye wrote: »

1. no the opposite

Ah ok so there is no evidence other than in Headshots mind of this Anti-United bias.

2. More than 3.

4,5 or 6?

3. Keep up man its been posted by headshot earlier.

Actually it was posted by Xavi themselves but did he engage with T4TF afterwards about it?

Also if the infraction was wrong surely it should have been reversed when Xavi queried it.

I know also if I got an infraction that I felt was wrong I would fight my side (just ask the current politics mods about that!).

K-9

Jazzy wrote: »

weird, but not punishable. nothing wrong with being weird
why not carry out the max punishment? cos its clearly uncalled for, as is said - its only being weird. dont worry though, i can read between the lines sure hasnt des said it in this thread already?

It probably is down to the user perspective and position. Me personally, I'd ignore the pm's and if they continued, block them.

However, if a mod feels a user, who by the sounds of it they have a history with, is abusing it, fair enough. I think we all know the reason the OP pm'ed him was because he was a mod.

The OP was winding him up and if there is a sustained history of it, they have the right to act.

Tbh, I think the mod was stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one. He may well have thought the OP was using the PM function to be smart and trying to circumvent a SF infraction.

I like Arhimedes as a poster, seems a knowledgeable lad on football and good for an alternative view on something. Surprised he'd be sending pm's like this.

LuckyLloyd

Headshot wrote:

Unknown to me I should of been banned by then but I was still alive and well and 2 months later I got my 7th which I would still argue wasnt justified but my main point is that 6th card. If i was banned right then and there I would have a better chance of appealing my ban than I do now.

Headshot's complaint in Helpdesk is of the extremely weak and watery sauce variety. To continuously drag it up in here as "proof" of biases T4TF holds is a little lol.

Gordon

bonkey wrote: »

You always did play the Bad Cop to my Good Cop

All joking aside...I'm not going to pretend to know what the correct reaction should have been. I do think, however, that between the parties involved, an acceptable solution has been found for this case.

On the back of that, I'm going to close this thread soon as it's going round and round now and I get the feeling we're losing the love. Archimedes has given his position on the matter which is fair play imo considering what has happened, I hope to keep him informed of the discussions we're having on the SF Mods forum of his ban for what that's worth to him.

As for the broader question of how this type of stuff should be dealt with...I'm not sure we can define hard-and-fast rules, beyond saying that the Admin team have no sympathy for people causing others grief or stirring **** via PM....regardless of whether its a mod or not.

This has brought about some technical quagmires imo as there are some things in the soccer forum charter that need profile infractions, and larger issues with taking content that is directly related to the forum but relayed via an off-forum medium (PM). I think this may need to be chaired on Feedforward to get everyones opinion on how to handle it, but maybe before that the DRP should be looked into by everyone on feedforward.

As I said, I'm going to close this soon, so please don't use this thread to get the digs in, we're all in this together.

Now, I'm off to watch Scotland play in the World Cup final tonight. They are in the World Cup aren't they? And they're through to the final.. right? And that's tonight, yeah?..

Headshot

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Headshot's complaint in Helpdesk is of the extremely weak and watery sauce variety. To continuously drag it up in here as "proof" of biases T4TF holds is a little lol.

extreme weak, i think you need to go to specsavers son, i got xavis post saying a mod went over his head to give me infraction, so your saying thats weak argument? a mod went over another mods head to give a user an infraction even thou it was dealt on thread? Do you not see how any poster might think a mod has something against them and iv never done anything to TFTF , so i must think its the team i support

Sparks

Before Gordon closes the thread, I have one, and only one, point which I wish to make as one of the Sports Cmods, and it is this:

We have a dispute resolution procedure. It lays down how we handle complaints like this. It's widely known of. It's in nearly every forum's charter. It goes like this:

1. PM the mod (or any mod in the forum) to discuss the dispute. If this fails then:
2. PM the cmod of the category (any of them if there's more than one) to discuss the dispute. If this fails then:
3. Start a thread in HelpDesk to discuss the dispute with the admins.

Now some don't like that procedure, and that's fine. There'll be a feedforward review of it, and that's cool too.

Until it is changed, however, it is the procedure and I'm frankly getting tired of people ignoring the "If this fails" bit and jumping straight to step three. I'm getting equally tired of people claiming the system's broken as they break it.

Threads like this do not help your case. They make it harder to do any sort of unbiased review, because the complainant is claiming unfair treatment while seeking preferential treatment.

So please, until (or if, to be fair about it) the DRP is changed, follow it.