Getting back on the fantasy wagon

Denerick

One of my favourite books is Lord of the Rings, and I read the Wheel of Time and some David Gemmel in my teenage years. I recently tried to read George R.Martins first novel and was immensely bored by it.

Can anyone recommend fantasy that is heavy on the politics side and doesn't attempt to 'do a Jordan' with terrible female characterisations and blood curdling romantic interests? Thanks.

Improbable

Can you explain a bit more exactly what you mean by heavy on the politics side?

Denerick

Improbable wrote: »

Can you explain a bit more exactly what you mean by heavy on the politics side?

I like the political machinations, the affairs of State, the grand causes... All that jazz. I liked that Gemmel novel (I think it was called 'sword in the storm', though I'm not sure) Basically the protagonist grows up to become the chief of his nation who fight an empire of men ridiculously akin to the Ancient Romans...

Improbable

Have you tried reading the novels in the Riftwar Saga by Raymond E. Feist? they're very good and seem to be the sort of thing you'd like. Pretty much any of Feist's works should appeal to you but the Riftwar Saga is really the best of his work in my opinion. Plenty of what you're looking for.

wildlifeboy

read that its a great read and it will introduce you to Feist although you may want to read "Magician" first

Denerick

Improbable wrote: »

Have you tried reading the novels in the Riftwar Saga by Raymond E. Feist? they're very good and seem to be the sort of thing you'd like. Pretty much any of Feist's works should appeal to you but the Riftwar Saga is really the best of his work in my opinion. Plenty of what you're looking for.

Hi, I'm not really interested in the old fantasy cliché of 'the innocent farmbody whisked away to fight for a great cause, to realise his destiny' etc. etc. Are these books free of that?

Improbable

Denerick wrote: »

Hi, I'm not really interested in the old fantasy cliché of 'the innocent farmbody whisked away to fight for a great cause, to realise his destiny' etc. etc. Are these books free of that?

Not really. There is a great deal of that and the plot does depend on it and it does start off slow but there is a lot of political intrigue and machinations etc. with entire sections of the book being free from the main character.

Honestly though, if the 'innocent farmbody whisked away to fight for a great cause' is too much for you to handle, I wouldn't really attempt to read it. You'd probably get bored and stop as there is a lot of it particularly in the beginning.

AnCapaillMor

Denerick wrote: »

One of my favourite books is Lord of the Rings, and I read the Wheel of Time and some David Gemmel in my teenage years. I recently tried to read George R.Martins first novel and was immensely bored by it.

Can anyone recommend fantasy that is heavy on the politics sideand doesn't attempt to 'do a Jordan' with terrible female characterisations and blood curdling romantic interests? Thanks.

And you found A song of ice and fire boring? Machaevelli would be proud of it.

Joe Abercrombies stuff is pretty good, brutal(in a good way) with a slight bit of politics in it, royalty class vs commoners etc.

Gemmel troy trilogy is pretty good with some Aegememnon politics thrown in ot it.

Kinda of is fantasy based on historical figures, Conn Igguldons Emperor based on Julius Caeser is pretty good, very heavy on the roman politics.

Improbable

Oooh, what about Iain M. Banks novels? The Culture series is very good and makes for great political commentary.

Dades

AnCapaillMor wrote: »

And you found A song of ice and fire boring? Machaevelli would be proud of it.

+1

How far did you get into A Game of Thrones?

Also, I don't think the Magician Trilogy is for you. The first book is exactly what you fear.

Denerick

I got about 100 pages into it. Although I felt it had promise I thought it was far too hard to follow. Given that I didn't care for any of the characters from the get go, nor really cared about any of the events that seemed to be happening all around me, I gave up in disgust.

I want to get into fantasy again as some of my happiest reading memories was when I was really into Lord of the Rings and then the Wheel of Time. But I don't think I'll be able to take the stock clichés of the genre...

ixoy

George R.R. Martin's series is among the very best examples of political fantasy out there - are you sure you want to look into that area? You won't get much better.

For some other series that eschew clichés:
* Alan Campbell's Deepgate Codex series - A city suspended on chains over a pit to Hell with angels, magic, and steam technology. No farm boys - closest is a young angel.

* F. Scott Lynch's Gentlemen Bastards sequence - A group of con men go up against a target bigger than they can handle. Very witty but also quite dark at times. Quite an easy one to read.

* Patrick Rothfuss' "Name of the Wind" - In some ways a more traditional tale of a young man coming to his power but told extremely competently.

* China Miéville's New Crouzobon series - Created his own sub-genre (called "new weird"). A mixture of steam punk and magic, set against a very memorable and unique world.

* R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing trilogy - Following the story of the ultimate Machivallian character who will manipulate any and all to get to his goals. No farmboys and features the likes of a stone-cold killer in its cast as well as a whore.

* Steven Erikson's Malazan series - Epic fantasy, spread over multiple contents and millennia. No farmboys. However, if you found GRRM tough going you may face similar problems here.

* K.J. Parker's Memory trilogy - Told in the first person by an amnesiac who can't remember who he is but finds himself caught up in events that he apparently caused.

* Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy - As mentioned above, it's often a brutal violent world. No farmboys (the characters would probably kill them). Uncompromising but quite an easy read at the same time. Could be a good opener to get back into the genre.

Denerick

I was feeling rather cynical and jaded when I sat down to read Martin. I may try again as I only ever seem to hear good things about it.

lemon_sherbert

I'd recommend Robin Hobb's Assassin trilogy, a good bit of politics, excellent characterisation, and if you enjoy them, there are countless more books in the same world.

Trojan

I found RR pretty grim, it's rare I'll not finish a book.

I think K.J. Parker's Engineer series might be right down the street of what the OP is looking for.

(I'm reading her latest, The Folding Knife, and it's fairly political but nothing mind stretching.)

TheBandit

If your looking for something political and fine a Game of Thrones boring i'd try Dune.
I'm only half way through the book but so far it is a lot faster paced than Game of Thrones....it may jade your love of star wars a bit though.

Dune is sci-fi which i regard as fantasy, not sure if your dead set on a Tolkien type universe. Give it a try, the first 20 pages or so are confusing but once you get your head around terms and names its grand

Note that Game of Thrones and the series is my favourite fantasy series so if you didn't like that you may not like Dune

Dades

I'd second Dune - a great read - deffo more fantasy than sci-fi.

ixoy

Trojan wrote: »

I think K.J. Parker's Engineer series might be right down the street of what the OP is looking for.

To an extent yes but I think the large focus on engineering dominates over the politics (even if the engineering is used as a political tool). There's as much, if not more, about lathes and pivots as there is about politics. Not sure if the Scavenger trilogy is any better though you will learn a lot about metallurgy and forging!

TheBandit wrote:

If you're looking for something political and find a Game of Thrones boring, I'd try Dune.

I think "Dune" is excellent (sure it's where I get this username from). It's got political elements - lots of manipulation of people as different houses jockey for position. The sci-fi element is the detail put into the ecology of the world but aside from that, there isn't much since it's a world without high-tech.

In fact you'll notice a couple of things in it from a "Wheel of Time" perspective - the Aes Sedai seem very like Dune's Bene Gesserit order for example.

Be warned though - it's not as easy a read as some of the more modern selections mentioned here. You need to stick with it and adjust to a slower pace. Nothing wrong with its style but it mightn't be to everyone's taste.

bonkey

ixoy wrote: »

* K.J. Parker's Memory trilogy - Told in the first person by an amnesiac who can't remember who he is but finds himself caught up in events that he apparently caused.

Great series...but its not told in the first person.

ixoy

bonkey wrote: »

Great series...but its not told in the first person.

You're right! A large chunk is from the main protaganist's POV but it's not first person. I think the way Parker allows us access to their rambling thoughts is what confused me.

Denerick

ixoy wrote: »

Be warned though - it's not as easy a read as some of the more modern selections mentioned here. You need to stick with it and adjust to a slower pace. Nothing wrong with its style but it mightn't be to everyone's taste.

I read a lot, and quite a lot of what I read is slow paced so no problems there. If anything I want to revert back to fantasy for a while, as I've been reading a lot of classic fiction and cynical satires recently. I need something more wholesome... Comfort food if you will!

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

ash - a secret history by mary gentle.

been a while since I read it (and it's a long one) but it deals with a female leader of a mercanary group in medieval europe (it's sort of historical fantasy) and alot of what they have to deal with, apart from fighting, is the politics of kings and princes, jealous noble generals and the like.

I honestly don't remember how much politics there is in the book, I remember some.. but its a long damn book (****ing awesome too).

Playboy

ixoy wrote: »

* R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing trilogy - Following the story of the ultimate Machivallian character who will manipulate any and all to get to his goals. No farmboys and features the likes of a stone-cold killer in its cast as well as a whore.

* Steven Erikson's Malazan series - Epic fantasy, spread over multiple contents and millennia. No farmboys. However, if you found GRRM tough going you may face similar problems here.

Either of these two would be just what you would be looking for imo. My preference would be for the Prince of Nothing Series as it deals with a lot of ethical issues and big philosophical ideas. Its also much shorter. Malazan is great but its EPIC in scope .. absolutely huge so if you have time on your hands I'd defo reccommmend it!

Playboy

Denerick wrote: »

I was feeling rather cynical and jaded when I sat down to read Martin. I may try again as I only ever seem to hear good things about it.

I had the exact same experience as you. Picked it up because of the rave reviews but put it down after a couple of hundred pages because I was bored. I dont think I was in the right frame of mind to read it and have always meant to go back to it. The lazy part of me might wait for the HBO series though

Cavehill Red

+ 1 on Mieville (a PhD who has run for parliament) and Dune (though the series tails off badly into pseudo-religious waffle.)

I'd also recommend Steph Swainston's Castle trilogy to anyone. Like Mieville, it's set in an entirely original milieu, and as the OP requested, it's heavy on the politics.
The premise is that an immortal Emperor has bestowed immortality on 50 individuals to assist him, a bit like a large cabinet, in defending their land against the onslaught of voracious insects which are intent on destroying it.
The narrator is one of these immortals, being the only individual on the planet who can fly, but he is somewhat hamstrung by his naivety when it comes to the politicking required and also a very severe drug addiction which threatens his immortal role.
The writing is hyperrealistic both in the battle scenes and the political intrigue of the feudal court. But beyond that, the sheer imagination, as with Mieville, astounds. Well worth giving it a go.

Denerick

Cavehill Red wrote: »

+ 1 on Mieville (a PhD who has run for parliament) and Dune (though the series tails off badly into pseudo-religious waffle.)

I'd also recommend Steph Swainston's Castle trilogy to anyone. Like Mieville, it's set in an entirely original milieu, and as the OP requested, it's heavy on the politics.
The premise is that an immortal Emperor has bestowed immortality on 50 individuals to assist him, a bit like a large cabinet, in defending their land against the onslaught of voracious insects which are intent on destroying it.
The narrator is one of these immortals, being the only individual on the planet who can fly, but he is somewhat hamstrung by his naivety when it comes to the politicking required and also a very severe drug addiction which threatens his immortal role.
The writing is hyperrealistic both in the battle scenes and the political intrigue of the feudal court. But beyond that, the sheer imagination, as with Mieville, astounds. Well worth giving it a go.

That sounds like an interesting departure from what I would normally read. Will look for this next time I'm in a Dublin bookshop. Cheers.

Cavehill Red

Chapters have a few copies of the single book trilogy for sale upstairs for about seven euro at the moment. I bought one yesterday for the da-in-law.
It's incredibly vivid and very well written. Well worth it imo.

ixoy

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Chapters have a few copies of the single book trilogy for sale upstairs for about seven euro at the moment. I bought one yesterday for the da-in-law.

The Castle trilogy is going for about €7? Excellent. I read "The Year of Our War" and I'd like to read the other two.

Corsendonk

Well for that special blend of politics and fantasy how about Bertie Ahern Autobiography?

AnCapaillMor

Corsendonk wrote: »

Well for that special blend of politics and fantasy how about Bertie Ahern Autobiography?

Ah yes who'll forgot that classic chapter where Fitzpatrick the grey awakens the terrifying Nama beast and makes a last stand crying "None shall default" enabling Bertie Baggins and Biffomir to make thier escape.

ixoy

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Chapters have a few copies of the single book trilogy for sale upstairs for about seven euro at the moment. I bought one yesterday for the da-in-law.

New or second hand?

I looked downstairs and couldn't find any copies but never thought to look upstairs as I don't like second-hand books

I did manage to get Iain Banks' "Transition" brand new for €1.99 and Joe Abercrombie's "Best Served Cold" for €6.99 though!