Why is fedor still considered #1 by so many??

hisholinessnb

"he curls up in a ball for three minutes and cries for his mommy"

This statement proves the point that people have a bias against Brock for who he is rather than what he does.

He took the punches, recovered to his feet, then in the second round became the UFC heavyweight champion.

"Cries for his mommy" indeed.

baaaa

If you look at the way Brock won it's a joke.
He won cause Carwin exhausted himself beating the crap out of him in every faucet of the game.
It wasn't a ploy of Brocks or a tactic.
He just got very lucky.
If you think about it for longer than 3 secs you will have to acknowledge that it's not a great way to win.
On the cardio front Brock won but on the displaying skills front he lost bad.
His stand up is like a 1 legged Jardine.

hisholinessnb

And if Carwin had have paced himself better so as not to gas it would have given Brock more of a chance to take him down.
It's all relative.

All I know is that Brock is the current champion in the best heavyweight section in the world and has beaten top calibre guys to get there.

In my eyes that deserves credit. He is far from flawless, I'd be the first to say that, but talented enough to be the champion, and to suggest its down to luck reeks of sour grapes.

For the record, I am not claiming Brock is better than Fedor.

baaaa

hisholinessnb wrote: »

For the record, I am not claiming Brock is better than Fedor.

Well that's ok then,you should have said.
Ok put it like this,besides Brocks ability to take punishment what was that impressive about him sat night?

Mark Hamill

hisholinessnb wrote: »

Once I saw the "cried for his mommy" comment I knew you weren't gonna give him any credit in fairness.

Did you read the rest of the post where I showed how Fedors performance against Rogers was a totally different case to Brocks performance against Carwin? Brock deserves very little credit for how he beat Carwin for the same reason that Mir deserves very little credit for how he beat Brock in their first match up. It was all down to their opponent making silly mistakes.

hisholinessnb wrote: »

So he pinned Carwin to the cage for a minute without trying to take him down, so what?
Surely this was to allow himself to recover after the barrage from Carwin? If so then you must at least admit it was smart to do this?

Certainly wasn't stupid, but to give credit for it is like giving credit to someone who pulled off an armbar escape, you have to question how they got in that situation in the first place.

cowzerp

lets keep this about Fedor lads, the rest of the brock stuff has been moved to the ufc thread..

RoryMac

IMO the HW scene in MMA is wide open, we've all seen Brock can be beaten by a guy with good standup, a lot of refs would've stopped the fight while Carwin was pounding him and although i thought it was right to let them fight on a guy with a cooler head would've finished it(maybe Carwin in a rematch).

On Fedor, i'm a big fan but i think his time has passed, there has been a big change in the fitness, size, skills of the guys fighting at HW these days and although Fedor has beaten bigger guys before i find it hard to see him coping with guys with the wrestling skills and size of Lesner, Carwin, Mir etc now. For me Fedor hasn't looked good in his last 3 fights, Arlovski- maybe as mentioned Arlovski wasn't landing a lot but he was dictating the fight, Fedor gets lucky. Rogers- Poor 1st round, got pounded for a bit, great shot to finish but that was the only thing he did in the fight till then, Werdum - got sloppy, made a stupid mistake(exactly the same mistake Lesner made in the first Mir fight)

I have a feeling we may only see one or 2 more fights from Fedor, the man is a legend but sorry for me his best days are gone.

baaaa

I'm not so sure about Fedors best days being behind him yet.
Arlowski was doing well for a bit and then got brought to an abrupt halt,Rogers and the cage caused him trouble alright but then he also got stopped abruptly and Werdum did what he did.
People have improved their games and game plans for Fedor no doubt,he has a target on his back for years.
But,he seems to be getting better at spotting holes and capitalising,his technique is still improving?

He lost to Werdum due to overzealousness,that's not so bad.
When I see him in the foetal position against the cage with someone whaling on him then I'll count him out.

Vince135792003

It's very hard to judge Fedor and know exactly where he stands in 2010.

2/3 years ago UFC made him a big offer. He turned it down and since then has been fighting good fighters but not the elite of the division in my opinion.

So for me, he's the greatest heavyweight there's ever been but as far as being the best heavy weight today in 2010, I have my doubts.

Butch Cassidy

Much has been made about Fedor's "people" controlling his fights and influence in rejecting the UFC deal. Is this true? What has he said about it all himself? ie. UFC and his fights

t-ha

baaaa wrote: »

He lost to Werdum due to overzealousness,that's not so bad.
When I see him in the foetal position against the cage with someone whaling on him then I'll count him out.

He lost due to basically inserting himself into the gaurd of one of the world's best JJ proponents - not exactly top notch game-planning.

Jayo_M

t-ha wrote: »

He lost due to basically inserting himself into the gaurd of one of the world's best JJ proponents - not exactly top notch game-planning.

Can't argue with that, but I suppose he felt that he's done it before so Werdum would be no different. He escaped the first attempt fairly handily, but when he tried the second time he ended up with no room to shrug it off with the way he was positioned near the fence. I reckon if he had of been in the centre of the cage, he could have powered out of it, maybe he didn't consider that aspect.

baaaa

Yeah looked like the cage had a bit to do with it,you'd think he would've learned from the Rogers fight.

Wacker

Butch Cassidy wrote: »

Much has been made about Fedor's "people" controlling his fights and influence in rejecting the UFC deal. Is this true? What has he said about it all himself? ie. UFC and his fights

I've heard that many, many times. What I had not heard before was this comment that I saw on reddit:

The UFC was willing to give Fedor anything except co-promotion because they literally couldn't. The guys that own the UFC also own a chain of casinos. In order to get my gaming license, I had to list every roommate I had ever lived with. If the Fertittas did any business with the russian mobsters who own M-1, they would lose their operators licenses (which are even more involved and strict than my grunt level license). So Fedor's people insisted on getting the one concession that they knew they couldn't get, and then blamed the UFC for the failed negotiations.

Interesting. Probably just hearsay though. What do you guys think?

raven136

baaaa wrote: »

He lost to Werdum due to overzealousness,that's not so bad.
When I see him in the foetal position against the cage with someone whaling on him then I'll count him out.

so the guy who lost(fedor) ends up somehow getting a pass for his "overzealousness" while Brock winning ends up getting slated.
There is definitely no bias against Brock around here anyway:rolleyes:

rovert

raven136 wrote: »

so the guy who lost(fedor) ends up somehow getting a pass for his "overzealousness" while Brock winning ends up getting slated.
There is definitely no bias against Brock around here anyway:rolleyes:

Could only imagine the stuff people would say if Fedor was in Brocks role during the Carwin fight. "Oh Fedor was lulling Carwin into a false sense of security." :pac:

cowzerp

raven136 wrote: »

so the guy who lost(fedor) ends up somehow getting a pass for his "overzealousness" while Brock winning ends up getting slated.
There is definitely no bias against Brock around here anyway:rolleyes:

The 2 can't be compared, in 1 instance the fighter was been badly dominated and bashed and won because Carwin's lacking and not his own making andd in the other Fedor dropped his opponent and went in for the kill, obviously over judging how hurt his opponent was-and as well as that, Most people have criticised Fedor for that, it was amateurish and not what you'd expect from someone with his experience even against an average bjj player.

baaaa

rovert wrote: »

Could only imagine the stuff people would say if Fedor was in Brocks role during the Carwin fight. "Oh Fedor was lulling Carwin into a false sense of security." :pac:

Fedor would never be in Brocks role,he would never have ran away and ended up turtled up against the side of the cage on his third warning.
Fedor doesn't run away/turtle up.
That's the difference between MMA and WWE.

seadnamac

baaaa wrote: »

Fedor would never be in Brocks role,he would never have ran away and ended up turtled up against the side of the cage on his third warning.
Fedor doesn't run away/turtle up.
That's the difference between MMA and WWE.

I'll think you'll find it's not. For starters, one is a sport and the other is a name of a company.

baaaa

Sorry,I meant that's the difference between MMA fighters and WWE performers.

seadnamac

baaaa wrote: »

Sorry,I meant that's the difference between MMA fighters and WWE performers.

Oh well in that case what you said makes perfect sense.

cardio,shoot me

ugh, the only thing worse than a brock nuthugger is a fedor nuthugger. why cant people discuss one without bringing the other into it,

im a fan of both fighters, the way i look at it is you can say fedor just got caught and that brock was lucky, but one has a W beside their record and one has an L...

baaaa

cardio,shoot me wrote: »

ugh, the only thing worse than a brock nuthugger is a fedor nuthugger. why cant people discuss one without bringing the other into it,

im a fan of both fighters, the way i look at it is you can say fedor just got caught and that brock was lucky, but one has a W beside their record and one has an L...

This is a thread about Fedor so chances are you're gonna see comparisons involving Brock.
Nice way to look at it but a bit simplistic really.

seadnamac

It's not nut huggery that's the problem as I see it. People are entitled and justified in praising Fedor for all he's achieved in the sport and, whether some postors want to accept it or not, people are entitled and justified for praising Lesnar for what he has achieved in the length of time he has been active in the sport.

It's the unwillingness of some to accept the latter part of that statement even when faced with hard facts ( Undisputed UFC Heavyweight champion, defended his title two times against very competitive opposition and all with limited experience) and their obvious bias against the man just because of what he used to do for a living, that brings this place down. Anti-Lesnar nut huggery if you will.

baaaa

I just don't see the point in hugging Lesnars nuts.
He's done feck all and is a (Nice guy! abuse removed.).
Great athlete and all that but really,what has he done?What does he bring to the sport?

rovert

baaaa wrote: »

Fedor would never be in Brocks role,he would never have ran away and ended up turtled up against the side of the cage on his third warning.
Fedor doesn't run away/turtle up.
That's the difference between MMA and WWE.

baaaa wrote: »

Sorry,I meant that's the difference between MMA fighters and WWE performers.

baaaa wrote: »

I just don't see the point in hugging Lesnars nuts.
He's done feck all and is a muppet.
Great athlete and all that but really,what has he done?What does he bring to the sport?

Instead of wasting my Sunday morning responsing to these baiting posts 15 different ways Ill just post this:


And so that caps off one of the ****tier weeks on this forum when it comes to conspiracy theories on fight fixing, fighter bashing, bad trolling and the general descent into Sherdog territory.

Seriously something has to be done here.

seadnamac

baaaa wrote: »

I just don't see the point in hugging Lesnars nuts.
He's done feck all and is a muppet.
Great athlete and all that but really,what has he done?What does he bring to the sport?

Exhibit f*cking A.

ScareGilly

fogarty245 wrote: »

Il admit at the start of this thread that i have not been a fan of mma for very long...around a year to be precise

This is why you dont consider him to be a top contender....

Fedor would destroy Brock, Brock's stand-up is useless and his ground game is fairly suspect. He really just relies on his unique body type to win most fights. Whereas I could see Dos Santos, Cain or Overeem beating Fedor quite convincingly. Fedor would be my #4 Heavyweight in the world at this point in time.

For all of you who say Brock is the #1 Heavyweight or include him in their p4p lists, you clearly don't know much about MMA. Have you watched MMA before Brock? Other MMA orginisations? Or even know what p4p means?

rovert

ScareGilly wrote: »

For all of you who say Brock is the #1 Heavyweight or include him in their p4p lists, you clearly don't know much about MMA. Have you watched MMA before Brock? Other MMA orginisations? Or even know what p4p means?

So every major webiste's MMA rankings dont know much about MMA, okie dokie.

fogarty245

Well scaregilly, if you read the whole post I was making a point of why mma is the only sport that does not seem to take into account current form only previous achievements...

I don’t doubt that fedor is a legend in the sport or doubt any of his past achievements only that the majority of his achievements have been in the past so as I’ve said a number of times in my mind to be considered p4p you have to be constantly competing at the highest level possible and winning to be considered p4p....

And being a newish fan of mma I think helps me see fighters for what they are at the moment without any favouritism, which seems to go along way for people claiming fedor is the best and hating brock so much.

rovert

I dont see why it has become fashionable to trot out "you must be new to the sport" or similar other lines like that on here when someone is critical or normative about Fedor. ScareGilly Im only mentioning this as you are inviting it with your previous post but your user profile says you are 18. Which makes you 12 when Fedor won the PRIDE GP for example. I know it is 2010 and you could probably buy or download every single Fedor fight. But I truly question whether you were around to put everyone of Fedor's wins into "real time" perspective so to play the card you are playing is kind of rich.

Like fogarty245 said he did preface his post with that he was a new fan which makes you post even more silly.

Genki Sudo

Il admit at the start of this thread that i have not been a fan of mma for very long...around a year to be precise

That quote pretty much explains it. If you were watching you would know.

Gunsfortoys

rovert wrote: »

Instead of wasting my Sunday morning responsing to these baiting posts 15 different ways Ill just post this:


And so that caps off one of the ****tier weeks on this forum when it comes to conspiracy theories on fight fixing, fighter bashing, bad trolling and the general descent into Sherdog territory.

Seriously something has to be done here.

They are about as genuine as fat people wearing Tapout T-shirts.

ScareGilly

rovert wrote: »

So every major webiste's MMA rankings dont know much about MMA, okie dokie.

These are the same websites who have Overeem ranked as far down as 8th in the Heavyweight division? Most have Carwin in the top 3 who has some of the worst cardio seen in recent years, and has virtually no ground game at all. The man got submitted by Brock.. I've noticed none of them have Big Country in their top 10 either, a man who's one fight away from a title shot? Some also still have Fedor as their #1 fighter and Werdum as #3?
I think it's safe to say these rankings are defunct.

rovert wrote: »

I dont see why it has become fashionable to trot out "you must be new to the sport" or similar other lines like that on here when someone is critical or normative about Fedor.
Like fogarty245 said he did preface his post with that he was a new fan which makes you post even more silly.

Because, to quote John Giles, "You have to take each fight on it's merits." If you've watched enough of Fedor's fights you'll realise he is much more skilled than Brock and that he would've beaten Brock based on any of Brock's performances.
So because he stated in his OP that he was new to MMA we cant use that reasoning to prove why we think he's wrong? That's silly.

rovert wrote: »

ScareGilly Im only mentioning this as you are inviting it with your previous post but your user profile says you are 18. Which makes you 12 when Fedor won the PRIDE GP for example. I know it is 2010 and you could probably buy or download every single Fedor fight. But I truly question whether you were around to put everyone of Fedor's wins into "real time" perspective so to play the card you are playing is kind of rich.

Well, I've been watching MMA since I was 11. My cousin introduced me to it. UFC 40-something. All I can remember really is Rich Clementi lost. I've been watching with interest since. So really, yes, I have been around to put them into "real-time" perspective. So I don't think it's kind of rich at all.

And to fogarty. Anyone who puts any heavyweight higher than #4 on their p4p list doesn't know much about MMA. I wouldn't count myself as a Fedor-nuthugger, or a Brock hater. Brock would be one of my favourite UFC heavyweights so I don't see anything wrong there. However I do agree about the Fedor/Brock nut-hugging. It is quite annoying those who put Fedor as the #1 heavyweight/p4p, especially now, after his loss against Werdum.

unknown13

ScareGilly wrote: »

This is why you dont consider him to be a top contender....

Fedor would destroy Brock, Brock's stand-up is useless and his ground game is fairly suspect. He really just relies on his unique body type to win most fights. Whereas I could see Dos Santos, Cain or Overeem beating Fedor quite convincingly. Fedor would be my #4 Heavyweight in the world at this point in time.

Really, you think Cain would Fedor convincingly. Fedor would destroy Cain. Cain has great wrestling but if the fight goes to the ground, Fedor will win and if the fight stays on the feet, Fedor will win. Dos Santos could beat Fedor. I used to think Fedor would beat Brock easily but Brock is improving massively every fight. I now think Fedor / Brock is a 50-50 fight.

ScareGilly wrote: »

For all of you who say Brock is the #1 Heavyweight or include him in their p4p lists, you clearly don't know much about MMA. Have you watched MMA before Brock? Other MMA orginisations?

So MMA Weekly, Junkie, Fighting, Yahoo, Sports Illustrated and Sherdog don't know what they are talking about. So, you are saying you know more than Kevin Iole. BTW, I have been watching MMA since UFC 69 and watch Dream, Strikeforce and WEC on very regular occaisions.

ScareGilly wrote: »

Or even know what p4p means?

It means Pound For Pound.

rovert

ScareGilly wrote: »

I think it's safe to say these rankings are defunct.

A sentiment that Ive never hear until Fedor dropped from #1, funny that.

ScareGilly wrote: »

Because, to quote John Giles, "You have to take each fight on it's merits." If you've watched enough of Fedor's fights you'll realise he is much more skilled than Brock and that he would've beaten Brock based on any of Brock's performances.

So why doesnt his management let face him?

ScareGilly wrote: »

So because he stated in his OP that he was new to MMA we cant use that reasoning to prove why we think he's wrong? That's silly.

He was looking to understand why and all you did was call him nooby mcnooberton.

ScareGilly wrote: »

Well, I've been watching MMA since I was 11. My cousin introduced me to it. UFC 40-something. All I can remember really is Rich Clementi lost. I've been watching with interest since. So really, yes, I have been around to put them into "real-time" perspective. So I don't think it's kind of rich at all.

Fair enough but it is still no excuse for how you approached fogarty245's post in my view.

ScareGilly wrote: »

It is quite annoying those who put Fedor as the #1 heavyweight/p4p, especially now, after his loss against Werdum.

So who is #1 HW?

ScareGilly

rovert wrote: »

A sentiment that Ive never hear until Fedor dropped from #1, funny that.

Well you would've heard it from me.. Heavyweight rankings are ridiculous. There's no way of putting some heavyweights above another. By that I mean, Fedor could beat Brock, that would make him #1 in some people's books. But then JDS could beat Fedor. So should that make him #1? If Big Country beats JDS he suddenly skyrockets from outside the Top 10 up to #2 or #3? At this point in time, the heavyweight division is too hard to be split up into rankings in my opinion.

rovert wrote: »

So why doesnt his management let face him?

Probably because his management are idiots who won't accept a fight that he has more of a 10% chance of losing.

rovert wrote: »

So who is #1 HW?

There's no possible way to judge at this time with so many top heavyweights. Also see my post above...