Will CBT damage the industry?

Motor Mouth: Daragh

next week 12th July Tony Toner will be looking at this issue.

How will the introduction of Compulsory Basic Training affect motorcycle sales?
Will the expected €8/900 put off learners and those returning to motorcycling?
Should the necessary investment by Instructors be grant aided or supported by Local Government?

P.C.

P.C.

Ad now the serious answer:

Motor Mouth (Daragh) wrote: »

How will the introduction of Compulsory Basic Training affect motorcycle sales? ?

In the short term it will only affect the sales of mopeds.
In the long term, it will affect the sales of all bikes, as a lot of young people who ride mopeds out of neccesety move on to bigger bikes when they get older.

Motor Mouth (Daragh) wrote: »

Will the expected €8/900 put off learners and those returning to motorcycling? ?

Yes.
Where is a young college student supposed to find that sort of money?

Motor Mouth (Daragh) wrote: »

Should the necessary investment by Instructors be grant aided or supported by Local Government?

MMMMmmmmmm - are the students going to get a grant or support from Local Government to pay for CBT?

Why is this not being brought in for car drivers?

KamiKazi

It costs around £100 in the UK, various figures I've heard for what it'll cost here are between €500 - €800.

So yes, it's a total rip off and a huge cost to new riders.

MikeC101

I don't understand why we copy the UK system, but leave out the most rewarding part of it: The possibility of doing a direct access course / test, that would negate the two year restriction. We seem to have taken on all the bad points (from a riders point of view) but not the corresponding good points. I know plenty of bikers who'd love the option of direct access, and would willingly pay extra for it.

€8/900 is extremely high too, as pointed out it's much, much cheaper in the UK.

Though I'm not against the idea of new riders being better trained, at that price it's going to hit people looking at motorcycling as a cheaper commuting option, who aren't flush with money as it is, extremely hard - in a lot of cases it's going to cost them as much as their bike or insurance did. Added to that it's going to put off people looking for a toy for the summer months and weekends.

Xios

Ok, pulling figures outta me arse here.

I wanna buy a motorbike, and i just passed my theory test. €35 to sit the test
Bike, a new ybr125 = €2550 reasonable learner bike, could prob get a bike for 1k, but let's just keep the new one.
Insurance, at 20, i got quoted €1700 for the ybr with 0 years no claims, prov license.
Motor Tax, roughly €100
Bike gear prob €500 for a decent set up to high standards.
Then add on €800 euro for CBT

€5685 total so far... Then there's petrol, maintenance/wear and tear etc.

It's looking mightily unnattractive.

To make up for that 800 for CBT, the new rider would need to skimp out on either gear, or get a cheaper bike. Both of which will increase the chances of the rider being injured, negating the point of the CBT.

I think the CBT will just be used as another scam to take money from the people. If training is compuslory, and must be payed for by the individual. Then it must provide a reduction of insurance costs, or a reduction in motor tax.

So far the only thing screwing motorists over is the mandatory insurance, i understand the need for insurance, but the law requiring us to purchase insurance gives the insurance companies the chance to operate an oligopoly. Charging extortionate prices for something we're forced by law to pay. But motoring is a privilage and not a right.

There is no need for CBT as there is already the quinn/aon assesment programs, which need to be encouraged, but not forced. Also, don't single out motorcyclists, if CBT is to be introduced, it must be done so through all forms of motoring, even tractors.

Bodhisopha

Imagine my disappointment when i clicked on this thread to find it wasn't about the implications of cock and ball torture on motorcyclists.

:mad:

skelliser

when is this supposed to come in?

EvilMonkey

skelliser wrote: »

when is this supposed to come in?

Last year

skelliser

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Last year

did it? i dont think it did, supposed to come in to effect in november but never did.

EvilMonkey

skelliser wrote: »

did it? i dont think it did, supposed to come in to effect in november but never did.

No,
I have been hearing about this coming for years and it never does. It keeps getting pushed back while they fast track through enough RSA qualified instructors and agree on a course/numbers etc. It must be close by now. :pac:

smellslikeshoes

One thing that isn't immediately obvious about the CBT is how much it has to do with money. Each road death costs the government well over a million euro and reducing them by targeting a vulnerable road user group with CBT (either by making riders better or making biking less attractive to take up) will save the government many millions a year.

If the government are serious about saving peoples lives and not just saving money it should be subsidised to to make it cost <200 euro.

CJhaughey

The Bike Industry is not in great shape anyway, any sign of scrappage for bikes? Didn't think so.
Talking to a mate in the trade and there will be very very few bikes sold here this year.
Couple that with high starting costs for new bikers and the whole MC scene is in danger of just dying out.
Thanks to the Govt and their anti-bike policies.

thirtythirty

I'm patiently waiting for my probationary period of 6 months since getting my licence to run out so i can do my test..

if this comes in before my test, will the AON training + assessment I have done mean I wont need to do this, or will I still need to do this new training??

cantdecide

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

....Each road death costs the government well over a million euro....

:eek: I never thought about it like that.

Ya, it's all stick and no carrot, as usual. There are increasingly more deterrents and fewer incentives. Although I agree with it in principal, I think it'll be another stickie plaster solution when a ground up overhaul is what's required.

If it were done in terms of the introduciton of Direct Access then fine. If not, it's another cynical isolated gesture.

The upside is that it will lead to greater competition in the bike training market which is badly needed. Costs are sure to come down then.

RosieJoe

spottyelephant wrote: »

I'm patiently waiting for my probationary period of 6 months since getting my licence to run out so i can do my test..

if this comes in before my test, will the AON training + assessment I have done mean I wont need to do this, or will I still need to do this new training??

I'd say you're fine. AFAIK it will not affect you as you already have your permit.

Tigger

cbt is a joke without direct access

thirtythirty

RosieJoe wrote: »

Del2005

It's a good idea but not at 800! Since the majority of bike accidents are caused by car drivers not paying attention, would it not make more sense to train them to pay more attention when driving? Then they wouldn't need to introduce DRL's , which will make it even more dangerous for us, and have the added benefit of reducing all collisions involving vehicles.

Hotblack Desiato

Sod the Irish bike "industry". 99% of it has done its level best to screw over Irish bikers for decades with rubbish service and ridiculous prices. I myself, and many people I know, have been screwed around to an unbelieveable extent by this so-called "industry". The more generations a shop has passed down through, the more their sense of entitlement to grab your money seems to be.

If it wasn't for decent service and prices over the internet, and good value imported bikes, motorcycling would have totally died off here by now.

Good training for new riders is a great idea, but €800 :eek: Imagine the uproar if car drivers were told they would have to pay that!

EGOSHEA

I'd love to know how in the hell they justify 800+ euro for what I believe is a very short course. Let's say the instructor (with insurance costs, training bike, etc, all in) works out at about 100 euro/person, where's the other 700 going? Especially if the CBT could be organised on a very regular basis such that groups of 5 people could be formed at centres around the country, an instructor could make 500 euro/day per group - that's easily enough to make a living and pay one's costs. The rest should be passed back to the rider (by not charging it in the first place) who is making him/herself a better rider by doing this - and thereby reducing the costs to the government following biker deaths (often) caused by car drivers who must undergo no such course/initial test/restrictions on engine size.

If the person is willing to pay a more substantial sum, they should have the option of direct access over a week/whatever and then - based on the satisfactory passing of this test - get their full licence (with no restriction or perhaps a shorter, e.g. 6-month, one). For people who didn't want direct access, there could be the same route where they take the usual test and get their licence that way. Given that a single driving test is a somewhat imperfect way of gauging one's skills of/attitudes towards riding anyway, making someone wait at least 2.5 years for both a full licence and no restrictions is ludicrous.

They should do some research, find out what actually reduces motorcycle accidents/deaths, and then base a sensible and fair system on this. At the moment, anyone having passed the theory test can jump on a bike and feck off without any proper training. In my opinion, that IS a bit stupid. But the answer isn't to screw new riders over with costs to cover the Celtic Turkey. [rant over]

Roadskill

EGOSHEA wrote: »

I'd love to know how in the hell they justify 800+ euro for what I believe is a very short course. Let's say the instructor (with insurance costs, training bike, etc, all in) works out at about 100 euro/person, where's the other 700 going? Especially if the CBT could be organised on a very regular basis such that groups of 5 people could be formed at centres around the country, an instructor could make 500 euro/day per group - that's easily enough to make a living and pay one's costs. The rest should be passed back to the rider (by not charging it in the first place) who is making him/herself a better rider by doing this - and thereby reducing the costs to the government following biker deaths (often) caused by car drivers who must undergo no such course/initial test/restrictions on engine size.

If the person is willing to pay a more substantial sum, they should have the option of direct access over a week/whatever and then - based on the satisfactory passing of this test - get their full licence (with no restriction or perhaps a shorter, e.g. 6-month, one). For people who didn't want direct access, there could be the same route where they take the usual test and get their licence that way. Given that a single driving test is a somewhat imperfect way of gauging one's skills of/attitudes towards riding anyway, making someone wait at least 2.5 years for both a full licence and no restrictions is ludicrous.

They should do some research, find out what actually reduces motorcycle accidents/deaths, and then base a sensible and fair system on this. At the moment, anyone having passed the theory test can jump on a bike and feck off without any proper training. In my opinion, that IS a bit stupid. But the answer isn't to screw new riders over with costs to cover the Celtic Turkey. [rant over]

I think you will be suprised at what instructors are being made to do to be able to run CBT. Also did you not hear the announcement that new car drivers are to up to 20 hours training. A statement is due before the end of August and it has been approved by the transport minister.
Below is a list of what we have to provide and the syllabus for cbt.

Modules for Compulsory Basic Training
Section 1 – This comprises two modules
covering off-road training
Module 1 at the classroom deals with-
• Motorcycle Equipment
• Motorcycles and their controls
• Basic Technical Checks
• Taking Machine on and off the stand
• Basic Safety Checks (POWER)
• Moving the Machine without aid of
engine
• Precautions before starting (FIGS)
• Starting and stopping the engine.

Module 2 carried out on-site deals with-
• Stopping the machine (Theory),
• Moving off & Stopping,
• Riding in a straight line,
• Correct use of brakes (all scenarios),
• Gears selecting and changing,
• Rear Observation,
• Junctions Left and Right,
• Emergency stopping,
• Slalom,
• U Turn,
• Figure of Eight,
• Slow Riding,
• Explanation and Application of the
Motorcycle System (OSPSL).

Module 3 carried out on-site deals with-
Legal Requirements,
Rules of the Road,
Visibility -“Be Seen”,
Road Positioning,
Rear Observation,
Road surfaces,
Progress – Fast/Slow,
Hazard perception and anticipation.


Module 4 carried out on-road deals with-
The application of Module 3 (in practice)
whilst on a public road;
• Dealing with Junctions,
• Dealing with Roundabouts,
• Dealing with Traffic controls,
• Dealing with Hills (incline & decline),
• Dealing with Hazards.
This module has a minimum requirement
of six hours ‘on-road’ practical training.


Thia is what the training school or instructor must provide to be able to conduct CBT.

A Typical Compound will have the
following features:
• Rectangular in shape with minimum
dimensions of 37m x 25m where there
are 2 trainees at a time. A smaller site
of 27m X 15m will suffice if the
Instructor/Trainee ratio does not
exceed 1:1
• Have a smooth, level and durable
surface,
• Be free from slip hazards,
• Have a perimeter to prevent
pedestrian/vehicular access, during
CBT operational periods,
• Have an approved Health and Safety
Statement,
• Have appropriate Insurance in place,
• Include enclosed facilities for classroom
instruction. (This requirement can be
satisfied at a different location)
• Have washroom facilities available.

This is on top of

Motorcycles & Insurance
All gear for different sizes
Fuel
Tax
VAT


Roadskill

BTW no prices have been set as yet and it will be up to the training school to decide on that not the RSA.

EGOSHEA

Roadskill wrote: »

I think you will be suprised at what instructors are being made to do to be able to run CBT.....

I stand corrected - there's way more involved than I thought. Over how long does the CBT take place - is it a day or two? And I hadn't known there would be something coming in for car drivers - I think that's a good idea.

Still, if it's 800 euro or thereabouts, that'll definitely put quite a few people off. If the government is serious about reducing bike accidents, maybe assistance in one form or another could be provided.

Roadskill

The official syllabus is 16 hours minimum and there is to be a questionaire at the end of each module that the trainee must pass.
Prices like I said before are to be announced but Roadskill hope to be charging €495 for cbt per person if more than one do it together. It will cost more on a one to one basis but both will include an insurance assessment in the price to help towards the cost of first time insurance saving at least 25% per person completing the course.
If they bring this in together with compulsory lessons for cars then it will make bikes a more attractive proposition as once completed you can ride around on your bike alone but you will still have to have a qualified driver with you in the car.

I know cost is a factor here but lets not forget that insurance companies have been ripping off young riders for years and they find the money for it from somewhere. Others will spend thousands on flash helmets and gear. Surely proper training is as valuable to them. maybe I'm wrong

Roadskill

Hotblack Desiato

Roadskill wrote: »

Also did you not hear the announcement that new car drivers are to up to 20 hours training. A statement is due before the end of August and it has been approved by the transport minister.

Dialup Dempsey has a long history of lying through his teeth, ask anyone waiting for the Navan rail line which he promised to be operational six years ago - and that's in his own constituency FFS

I've had experience of dealing with him at first hand in the past and none of it was positive.

I'll believe the 20 hours for car drivers when I see it.

Far too many votes at stake though. Easier to push bikers around, after all the public perception is that they're all irresponsible bastards who deserve all they get.

210

I did roughly 20 bike lessons in the run up to my test. My motivation was pretty simple - it was to pick up skills to keep my riding safe. A beginner starting out is pretty short on handling skills & road positioning knowledge. This problem is perticularly bad when we throw into the mix larger bikes which may or may not be restricted. Truth is this pastime can be dangerous and pretty much the best investment we can make to ensure many years of biking is in training.

Been riding 14 years and still learning.