80euro again?

skipz

If i change my gun, what do i need to do with my liencse? Can i bring the new gun home with a different cert or apply again?

Tackleberrywho

skipz wrote: »

If i change my gun, what do i need to do with my liencse? Can i bring the new gun home with a different cert or apply again?

http://www.ssai.ie/FIREARM%20CERTIFICATE%20AMMENDMENT%20%20FORM%20-%20%20FCA2.pdf

skipz

Cheers!

FISMA

Ya gotta just luv it when technology and a few good auld souls can come together to answer a question so quickly and efficiently!

:pac:

Tackleberrywho

FISMA wrote: »

Ya gotta just luv it when technology and a few good auld souls can come together to answer a question so quickly and efficiently!

:pac:

I much prefer the old days when we had to believe what ever the RFD told us

dCorbus

I may be wrong, but shouldn't one use the Section 3.4 Firearm Substitution section of FCA1 to do what the O/P wants to do?

If i change my gun, what do i need to do with my liencse? Can i bring the new gun home with a different cert or apply again

It's not clear what you mean by bring the new gun home with a different cert or apply again?

I'm presuming that you are selling on your current gun and purchasing a new one.

You cannot bring the new gun home without a cert relating to the new gun and it's particular serial number etc. I'm not 100% sure what exactly you're asking.

Hopefully ezridax will be along shortly to explain the ins-and-outs of this - as I know he's been through the process successfully and will know the details.

If you're buying and selling privately, with all the transactions facilitated by your friendly neighbourhood dealer, then the paperwork should be fairly straightforward.

Tackleberrywho

http://www.nargc.ie/Upload/Form%20FCA1.pdf

Looks like you may be right dC

I'm no Ezri

Tackleberrywho

If the OP is just exchanging then the FCA1 looks to be the form.

Although I thought if one wanted to save €80 one used the amendment form.

Virgin Territory for most, as most only have new permit max of 9 months

Edit, Just after re-reading form

FCAI section 3.4 is the part you need to be sure!

Should also be free but AFAIK will expire when your current form is due to expire.

riflehunter77

skipz wrote: »

If i change my gun, what do i need to do with my liencse? Can i bring the new gun home with a different cert or apply again?

Are you changing Like for Like if so its just the FCA 2 and no you wont have to pay another 80 euro. Left in three FCA 2 forms last week to change address details and one a like for like firearm got the sergeant to ammend the details of my new firearm there was no hassale. He was saying there is a huge backlog of licences at the moment so even the FCA 2 will take alot longer than the 2 weeks it is suppose to take. My auld fella is waiting 5 weeks for a ammended liencse to come throught for his new shotgun.

dCorbus

BTW When looking for the forms, I'd recommend using the Garda website (Just to make sure you're getting the uptodate forms from the horses mouth, so to speak, and not from any other third party websites, however kosher they may be)

It's important to bear in mind that the substitution section can only be used AFAIK for "like-for-like" substitutions.

Quoting directly from Annex E, Page 39, of Fachtna's Glorious Guidelines:

When an application to substitute a firearm certificate is made – on the basis of ‘like for like’ – the process should be completed by the Garda Síochána in a reasonable time frame of approx. 14 days. This application will be made on the ordinary application form FCA1 and will not require a fee. In this situation, the applicant will not be required to undergo the entire application process again e.g. medical enquires, referees etc. It should be noted that approx two weeks following the issue of a substitute firearm certificate, the original firearm certificate will cease to be in force and should be destroyed by the holder.
When assessing a ‘like for like’ application, an issuing person should be satisfied that the applicant’s ‘Good Reason’ for possessing the firearm has not changed since the original grant of the certificate. For example, substituting a non restricted long firearm for another non restricted long firearm is allowable provided that the applicant does not intend shooting deer instead of say species that are destructive to farming or hunting activities. As stated, the ‘Good Reason’ must remain fundamentally the same as in the original grant.

So the good news is:
a. If it's a substitution (like-for-like) no fee is payable
b. The application process "should be completed within a reasonable timeframe" of approx. 14 days.
c. There's no need for the references and medical rigmarol.

But make sure the change is "like-for-like": From what I'm reading though, a .223 target rifle can be substituted for a .308 target rifle as like-for-like (and vice versa), as they are both non-restricted long firearms, the "good reason" is "fundamentally the same as in the original grant".

Would this apply to a change from a 12g to 20g shotgun?
From a SxS shotgun to a semi-auto O/U?
From a rimfire target rifle to a centrefire target rifle?

I don't know, but I'd say a good application could be put forward if:

a. The good reason is fundamentally the same
b. Both firearms are in the same category, ie both are non-restricted or both are restricted.
c. Both firearms are in the same "type" listed in Section 3.4, i.e. revolver, rifle, pistol, shotgun, etc.

e.g. My reading of the above and of Page 31 of Fachna's Guidelines would imply (to me at least) that a "like-for-like" substitution from a .22lr to a .223 for the purposes of "Fox Culling" would be acceptable.

But again, that's all just my own reading of the situation and I'm very happy to stand corrected on this, from lads who've already been through the process of getting a substitution granted.

dCorbus

Are you changing Like for Like if so its just the FCA 2

Have to disagree with you there, AFAIK this is not the case.

The FCA2 form is for doing the following, as Fachtna says on Page 39:

To cancel a firearm certificate: form FCA2 should be used. This form is only to be used in circumstances such as when a firearm is sold, permanently surrendered or otherwise disposed of or where – for example - the holder of the firearm certificate dies. Amending a certificate could be for reasons such as typing errors, change of address etc. The FCA2 form is not to be used when substituting one firearm for another.

Does anyone else read these things? or is it just me?:rolleyes::D

Or are the PTB's just making this s***e up as they go along? If so, the error of their ways should be pointed out to them by us when we deal with them and we should always point them toward the Guidelines, where relevant (I know, the Guidelines are very far from perfection, but goddammit, they're all we have right now!). At least in this way, we might get some consistency across the board.

got the sergeant to ammend the details of my new firearm there was no hassale

Were you issued with a new firearms cert for the new firearm?

landkeeper

well i changed one of mine a couple of months ago 22 hornet to a 223
i went into the barracks with the application form filled out they changed the licence there and then with a pen from one make to another , seriel number and calibre and stamped it with a date stamp , off i went and collected my rifle
a couple months later new licence arrived through the post
simple , nice chaps those guards , couldn't have been more helpfull

Scalachi

Guys,

Have completed 2 x Substitutions at this point.

Form FCA1 is the correct form, but not all details like references are required.

It should take 14 days according to the guidelines, but in reality it takes a bit longer...

regards


DB

dCorbus

:eek::eek::eek:

i went into the barracks with the application form filled out they changed the licence there and then with a pen from one make to another , seriel number and calibre and stamped it with a date stamp , off i went and collected my rifle
a couple months later new licence arrived through the post
simple , nice chaps those guards , couldn't have been more helpfull

Hmmm, that's an interesting combination of the old and new systems.
Whilst I can see the benefit of this approach - far more easy TBH.
But.....He changed your licence with a pen? Good god.

In the few months between you getting the sweep-of-the-pen and recieving the new licence in the post, you were IMvHO technically in possession of an unlicenced firearm. OK, you may have been OK if you stayed shooting in your District, but I would have hated to see the potential consequences of your having had your licence inspected in another district.

Nice chaps alright, very helpful - But potentially landing you in a big pile a sh1te if anything went in the slightest way pear-shaped! And you could bet a nice large sum that if the proverbial did hit the fan, those nice helpful chaps down your local station would develop a severe case of selective memory!

Don't try this at home!:rolleyes::D

(Or if you do, at least be aware of the potential sh1t-storm you may find yourself in further down the line)

landkeeper

i don't see the problem , the guard on duty spoke to the firearms officer who instructed what was to be done , the ammended licence was stamped with the date and station stamp , it was also photocopied by the guard and a copy attatched to the application form , the rfd also photocopied the ammended licence
like i said simple , very easy and the guards as allways were willing to help

dCorbus

Yep, all very simple and easy - and totally outside the law AFAIK.

So, what you're telling us is that your new "licence" was issued by a Guard?
Not the Super, Acting Super, or higher?
So, your "licence" wasn't in any way official, legit, or legal for that matter.

it was also photocopied by the guard and a copy attatched to the application form

What application form - the application form to apply for the new licence which was to grant you the new licence which you already had? (by dint of the some desk-guard scribbling on and stamping your old licence?)

Are we talking about the old system or the new system? When exactly did this happen?

the rfd also photocopied the ammended licence

Very nice and helpful of him - He made the sale that day.

That's all fine and grand - but as I said, rather you than me!
Whilst this may have worked for you, it's totally and utterly outside of the law what was done - and you could have got into so much very deep sh1t it doesn't bear thinking about.

So whilst it worked out for you, I wouldn't be recommending to any one that they go down such a half-arsed and frankly extra-legal route.

So please don't be advising lads to do things which may result in a conviction and the loss of their firearms, even if it worked out for you and there were no ramifications for you in the end. Bending of the law in relation to firearms is not really something that should be taken lightly TBH - It's not exactly the same as turning a blind-eye to a wee bit of after-hours drinking or a litter-offence.

And, never ever forget, that Selective Memory Syndrome is rather common.

landkeeper

Yes it was an on duty guard who issued it but under instruction form the firearms officer in the station ,this happened in April and was done under the new system and the application form was the same as the one used to apply for the new type licence ,i would have thought that it was the wrong one but hey who am i to complain

im not advising anyone of anything all i did was relate what happened to me , i did not bend the law i did as i was instructed so get off your high horse

Sparks

Sorry landkeeper, but dCorbus is right - the firearms officer, the garda at the desk, neither has the legal authority to grant a licence or change a licence like that.
What you describe is that they basicly sent you out with illegal paperwork and their name on it. So if you'd been hauled up by a new and enthusiastic member fresh to the district, the odds are you wouldn't have been looking at a conviction, but would probably have had need of the services of a solicitor to sort the mess out when it went to court.

If it makes you feel any better, it's not the first case like that. There's been a fair need for leeway because of the introductory teething problems with this new system, exacerbated by insufficient funds being allocated to training the gardai tasked with the sharp end of all of these changes.

dCorbus

Thanks landkeeper

There's a couple of points you should be aware of:

1. The Firearms Officer doesn't grant your licence
2. The FAC must be granted by a Super, Acting Super, or Higher (assuming it's a non-restricted firearm)
3. Unless the F/O is the Super they cannot grant your licence.

So the bit of paper you had (i.e. your defaced licence) was not worth the paper it was written on.

Helpful maybe - but for a number of months you were committing a serious offence (which you were very lucky to have got away with) and your RFD tbh should have known better and was taking a very big risk with their own livelihood.

Look, I know this may be sounding a wee bit pedantic - but the seriousness and extreme ramifications of being caught and charged(particularly in this day-and-age) with being in possession of an unlicenced firearm and ammunition, is not something anyone should take lightly. By all means, the GS should be helpful and assist us in any way possible - but within the bounds of the existing laws.

They can't be just making this sh1te up as they go along. We've all been looking for some consistency - and we shouldn't be grateful when the inconsistencies, for once, go our way.

Oh, and trust me on this, not one of the Guards who you dealt with would have supported you or backed you up (to their own detriment )if you had been landed in the crapper by another less "helpful" officer in another district.

Edit: Sparks got in before me.

But one thing does spring to mind, which sparks' post reminded me of: Following the "Firearms Awareness Week" (so-called) and the national campaign of PR, advertising, and notices in all the national papers by the Gardai, someone is going to be made an example of! Mark my words on that one! Now that the transition period is over, the "Firearms Awareness Week" run-its-course, and all renewal dates surpassed, the PTB will be coming down like a ton of bricks on any firearms licencing offences.

Anyone want to volunteer a guess as to when this will be? My money's on within one month from now, some poor bastard is going to be made an example of and dumped on from the highest. And that somebody will be a previously licenced firearms holder who has been "up until now" a pillar-of-the-community, a law-abiding citizen, and "a man who did no wrong and kept to himself".

So don't be taking any chances - Be careful out there!

(And I hope to christ I'm wrong about that - but......)

landkeeper

im not saying who is right or wrong i simply gave the facts of what happened when i changed rifles ,i needed and wanted the rifle quickly as we had a few lambs dissapear over a couple of nights and the hornet had reached the end of the line as far as i was concerned . as said previously there seems to be general confusion with some of the new legislation both from the gardai and from the shooting community But i have found the system easy to use and simple up to this point , and have allways found the guards polite and helpfull when it has come to dealing with firearms and licences over the last 25 years

riflehunter77

dCorbus wrote: »

Have to disagree with you there, AFAIK this is not the case.

The FCA2 form is for doing the following, as Fachtna says on Page 39:



Does anyone else read these things? or is it just me?:rolleyes::D

Or are the PTB's just making this s***e up as they go along? If so, the error of their ways should be pointed out to them by us when we deal with them and we should always point them toward the Guidelines, where relevant (I know, the Guidelines are very far from perfection, but goddammit, they're all we have right now!). At least in this way, we might get some consistency across the board.




Were you issued with a new firearms cert for the new firearm?

I had filled out the FCA 1 form first re changes to details, told by the garda its not needed if you already have a new 3 year licence. So he printed off the the FCA 2 forms there and then and we filled them out togeather. He ammended the current licence to the new details as it is like for like cal which was actually showing common sence instead of waiting all summer and maybe longer for the ammended licence to come out.It states it should only take 14 days but as I said my father is waiting 5 weeks at the moment and still no sign of it. There seems to be alot of confusion going around with the whole licence process. The guidelines say one thing but in the real world its not happening. Sure we live in hope.

BELOWaverageIQ

Jasus, I'll give you better...
I spoke to my local F.O. A short while back and told him I wanted to change my .22 to a new .223,
he told me to drop down my liscence to him the following morning.... Which I did.
He DELIVERED my "ammended" liscence to my door that evening., had a chat, a cuppa etc and I collected my new gun the following day.
Like landkeeper my new liscence/ card arrived 3 weeks later.

I know the cops get alot of slack but jebus H Christ I have to say I have gotten top class service from them.
None of my liscence apps have taken more than 3-4 weeks including a pistol app.
It's all about how you approach it I suppose.

Tackleberrywho

BELOWaverageIQ wrote: »

Jasus, I'll give you better...
I spoke to my local F.O. A short while back and told him I wanted to change my .22 to a new .223,
he told me to drop down my liscence to him the following morning.... Which I did.
He DELIVERED my "ammended" liscence to my door that evening., had a chat, a cuppa etc and I collected my new gun the following day.
Like landkeeper my new liscence/ card arrived 3 weeks later.

I know the cops get alot of slack but jebus H Christ I have to say I have gotten top class service from them.
None of my liscence apps have taken more than 3-4 weeks including a pistol app.
It's all about how you approach it I suppose.

+1
I have to say same. 14 or 15 days for a Glock

I will be visiting them soon for a chat.

dCorbus

I hear what you're saying, but:

Were you issued with a new firearms cert for the new firearm?

Coz, if you weren't - I'd be getting myself the proper paperwork and putting my ostensibly "un-licenced" firearm into storage for the time being. Why take the chance for the sake of a couple of weeks? Wait a couple of weeks or months?

Just how urgent can an application be to take the risk of a criminal conviction, potential prison-time, and most definitely the loss of all your firearms and the chances of ever getting another licence, at the very least?

I know it sounds like scaremongering - but hey, I'm not going to be the one awaiting trial in Mountjoy or some other lovely venue, because I wanted my licence a couple of weeks early and those nice chaps in the station were very helpful.

Look they may be "being helpful" and you may want things moved along nicely, but surely the risks don't outweigh the rewards in this case?

There seems to be alot of confusion going around with the whole licence process. The guidelines say one thing but in the real world its not happening

Yes the Guidelines say one thing, and they are just that: Guideline - but the Regulations and the Law are very definite on this.

A FAC can only be issued (in the case of a non-restricted firearm) by a Super or equivalent persona designata - That's not a Guideline, that's the Law.

And I can't see a judge accepting the "ah-sure-it'll-be-grand-isn't-it-the-way-we've-always-done-it-and-sure-the-law's-far-too-complicated-for-us-to-comply-with-so-we've-made it-up-as-we-went-along-and-didn't-the-helpful-young-guard-told-me-it-was-ok-but-he-couldn't-make-it-along-to-court-today-so-you'll-have-to-take-my-word-for-it" defence.:(

my new liscence/ card arrived 3 weeks later

That's the critical bit. Make sure that you have this.
OK, as ever the GS are making this sh1te up as they go along. Hurrah for f***in' consistency!:mad:

Just be very careful during the 3 weeks - 3 months you're waiting on the actual licence, and don't get caught by some sh1te hoping to make a name for himself.

landkeeper

dCorbus wrote: »

Thanks landkeeper

But one thing does spring to mind, which sparks' post reminded me of: Following the "Firearms Awareness Week" (so-called) and the national campaign of PR, advertising, and notices in all the national papers by the Gardai, someone is going to be made an example of! Mark my words on that one! Now that the transition period is over, the "Firearms Awareness Week" run-its-course, and all renewal dates surpassed, the PTB will be coming down like a ton of bricks on any firearms licencing offences.

Anyone want to volunteer a guess as to when this will be? My money's on within one month from now, some poor bastard is going to be made an example of and dumped on from the highest. And that somebody will be a previously licenced firearms holder who has been "up until now" a pillar-of-the-community, a law-abiding citizen, and "a man who did no wrong and kept to himself".

So don't be taking any chances - Be careful out there!

(And I hope to christ I'm wrong about that - but......)

ah well they will have a lot to choose from there are 80,000 outstanding licences i was reliably informed three weeks ago

BELOWaverageIQ

qoute from D corbus

"I know it sounds like scaremongering - but hey, I'm not going to be the one awaiting trial in Mountjoy or some other lovely venue, because I wanted my licence a couple of weeks early and those nice chaps in the station were very helpful."

I'm sorry but you are getting a little over the top there boss.
There is not a court in the land that would convict you ...
By taking your Ammended liscence, all be it not within the guidelines of current leglislation ... You are acting under the instruction of a member of the Guards ( themselves an officer of he court )
Yes yes yes you are quite correct that procedures were not followed and of course you are completely correct in pretty much everything you have said regarding he propper fashion in which to proceed in liscence ammendments etc etc.
But at the very most a person such as Landkeeper ( and I mentioned my ammendments ) is acting "in concert" and under direction of an officer of the court!
Not a hope of conviction, the F.O. Might get a kick in the stones at some point ...... Nothing more.

Court conviction ..... Loose your guns etc.....
A sharp intake of breath please

bazza888

im lost here,whats the problem?the guys have the license with new rifles details on it yes?so the rifles are licensed no?

dCorbus

There is not a court in the land that would convict you ...

Off you go so....and take your chances.
You obviously have a far deeper knowledge and a more favourable view of the clemency of the courts system than I do. Me, though, I think I'll make sure all my paperwork's in order, and not take my chances with the Law on this one.

But, hey, to each their own.

By taking your Ammended liscence, all be it not within the guidelines of current leglislation

First off, there is no such thing in law as an "amended licence" except for the purposes of changing the address, correcting a serial number mistake, etc.

It's not within the Guidelines - and most importantly - it's not within the Legislation, i.e. it's outside the law, i.e. it's extra-legal, i.e. it's illegal!

You can slice it whichever way you want to - Just because everyone's doing it, doesn't make it right - and if you honestly think, that if you land before the Courts on this one, you'll be able to rely on the type of defence you seem to think possible, good luck to you - and don't bend down to pick up the soap.:D;)

You are acting under the instruction of a member of the Guards ( themselves an officer of he court )

The Guards are "officers of the court"? That's new to me.
You are acting "under the instruction of a member of the Guards", eh? What, that would be your defence: "the guards told me to do it". Yep, right, that'd work.:rolleyes:

So, tell me please, what are the penalties for a conviction on a firearms offence so? Do you seriously think you'd be allowed keep your firearms after a conviction (even if there was no custodial sentence imposed)? A tad optimistic, if you ask me.

But, hey, what the hell - I'm only staying within the Law, whilst you can happily hover around the frayed grey areas.

the guys have the license with new rifles details on it yes?so the rifles are licensed no?

They seem to have recieved the licences with the new details (both after a week or two or a month or three) - which makes it all kosher at the end of the day.

It's the legal status (or otherwise) of your firearm during the interim couple of weeks or months that's where the potential problems will arise. IMvHO Whilst you may very well get away with carrying and using the firearm during that interim period, and your RFD may very well take his livelihood into jeopardy and supply you with the firearm, you will still be in possession of a firearm with no legal proof that it is legitimately and officially licenced to you.

That's the chance you would take. The advice has been given. You decide which course of action you'd prefer to take.

Sparks

BELOWaverageIQ wrote: »

There is not a court in the land that would convict you ...
By taking your Ammended liscence, all be it not within the guidelines of current leglislation ... You are acting under the instruction of a member of the Guards ( themselves an officer of he court )
Yes yes yes you are quite correct that procedures were not followed and of course you are completely correct in pretty much everything you have said regarding he propper fashion in which to proceed in liscence ammendments etc etc.
But at the very most a person such as Landkeeper ( and I mentioned my ammendments ) is acting "in concert" and under direction of an officer of the court!

Ignorantia juris non excusat

And btw, while you might not be convicted owing to circumstances, you would wind up stressed and quite a few quid out of pocket. Whatever about the outcome, the cost of a court case is rarely in question, even when costs are awarded in your favour.

BELOWaverageIQ

I'm not giving advice d'Corbus, I don't do that without people making an appointment and me getting paid, certainly not on a public website.
I was citing events and historical facts.
.... And.....Yes the Gardai are officers of the court.

And yes sparks Ignorance is not an excuse but operating under direction of an officer of the court certainly is....
Pm me if you wish to follow up some case law.

dCorbus

Right so, you're not giving advice.:rolleyes:
Looked strangely like advice to me....but I must have been mistaken.

I don't do that without you making an appointment and me getting paid, certainly not on a public website.

Interesting, me neither:p
Just voicing my anonymous opinions.
But then again, I'm not a solicitor nor a barrister.
You must be - if you take appointments and charge for legal advice.
So I'll bow to your greater legal expertise.

I was citing events and historical facts.

Citing? There was no citation!
Citation, footnotes, please.:rolleyes:
What historical facts?

Yes the Gardai are officers of the court.

I stand corrected.

Maybe.........:p:D