Front Line 5th July 2010: Families in Modern Ireland

Klingon Hamlet

This is Pat Kenny's show debating the rights and entitlements of different forms of families in ireland: married, co-habiting, single-parent and gay/lesbian:

FRONT LINE

Nevyn

I finally got around to watching this, I had to watch it in parts as it got me so angry several times.

ANXIOUS

I do not think the state should recognize any family units
besides married couple ( man and women ) seperated (man or women ). I think that if the state did this it would give children the best chance of a proper upbringing.

ANXIOUS

I agree with pat Kenny for the most part.

Klingon Hamlet

Thaedydal wrote: »

I finally got around to watching this, I had to watch it in parts as it got me so angry several times.

Me too! It just goes to show how backward we are as a country. And jaysus if I heard another "American study" being brought in as an excuse for discrimination and oppression, I'd have kicked the laptop screen. We need younger representatives and politicians with fresh minds.

I loved how Catherine McGuinness avoided any BS and got right to the heart of the matter in the space of a few, concise sentences. Everyone else seemed to spout bigotry and ignorance under the fuise of expert opinion and experience.

Klingon Hamlet

ANXIOUS wrote: »

I do not think the state should recognize any family units
besides married couple ( man and women ) seperated (man or women ). I think that if the state did this it would give children the best chance of a proper upbringing.

I kindly disagree with you. I fail to see how two loving parents must be man/woman, and not same-sex.

Nevyn

I don't know how they can uphold the constitution where it states 'all children are cherished equally' when we do not give them the same rights due to not recognising their family under law.

ANXIOUS

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

I kindly disagree with you. I fail to see how two loving parents must be man/woman, and not same-sex.

In my humble opinion I do not feel that children would benefit from being raised by same sex couples. I feel they would be better of in single familes. I think the pressure and stress on s child being brought up by a same sex couple would be too great.

Klingon Hamlet

Thaedydal wrote: »

I don't know how they can uphold the constitution where it states 'all children are cherished equally' when we do not give them the same rights due to not recognising their family under law.

The constitution has severalhuge flaws dating back to older times. Read it through and you'll see how it's geared towards protecting the mother's right to stay at home and raise the children, implying that the father go out and work. I have no issue with that model and it works for some (when financially viable of course) but it fails to cover other models like both parents working, or fathers staying home.

The simple fact of the matter is that people fear change, and people in this country really are ignorant to the rights of others when it comes to raising a family. The unorthodox being supported equally is seen as an attack on the orthodox, and a sign of Europe "interfering". IMHO Europe is stepping in because on many fronts, we are still quite closed-minded and repressed,and many of our citizens suffer because of this. Let Europe step in and push us into the 21st century, I say---we need a good kick up the bum.

Nevyn

That pressure is put on people who are bigoted.
It take a village to raise a child and extended family and by allowing bigotry and ignorance
to let people shun a child and thier family and not give them the support they need and deserve as a family is frankly wrong.

Being different in any way can cause that sort of pressure and stress, so if your in any way different you shouldn't have children? No, children grow up in many diverse types of families always have always will.

Children benefit from being raised by people who love and support them.

Klingon Hamlet

ANXIOUS wrote: »

In my humble opinion I do not feel that children would benefit from being raised by same sex couples. I feel they would be better of in single familes. I think the pressure and stress on s child being brought up by a same sex couple would be too great.

What pressure and stress? Just because the few who still cling to their homophobia like a safety blanket like to kick up a stink when the target of their hate is finally getting equal rights, doesn't mean we should bow to their ill will in the hopes that all will be well. Kids are strong, and loving, and their parents give them that strength and love. Gender and sexual orientation has nothing to do with the heart, mind and spirit of a parent, IMHO, so I refuse to accept that gender and sexual orientation must dictate whether a person can raise a family in peace or not.

ANXIOUS

While I agree with the two previous posters. I am a realist, I feel that a minority support same sex marriage and adoption. Would you both agree that I'd a referendum were held tomorrow on the issue it would be defeated?

I also think that the grieff a child being raised by a same sex couple, would have terrible side effects. Enough to IMO to say that I would be against it in the childs interests.

Nevyn

I have seen children being raise by hetrosexual married couples and it had terrible effects,
it depends on the people and how they are as parent rather then if they are married or not or a gay couple or not.

I think that like a lot of equality law it has to be brought about unfortunately via the EU courts due to the bigotry and ignorance and governments too afraid to rock thier grass root voters but the demographics of this country is changing and being at the church door shaking hands wont' be enough any more and so society is changing.

Klingon Hamlet

ANXIOUS wrote: »

While I agree with the two previous posters. I am a realist, I feel that a minority support same sex marriage and adoption. Would you both agree that I'd a referendum were held tomorrow on the issue it would be defeated?

I also think that the grieff a child being raised by a same sex couple, would have terrible side effects. Enough to IMO to say that I would be against it in the childs interests.

I think we should do a poll on Boards.

ANXIOUS

Thaedydal wrote: »

I have seen children being raise by hetrosexual married couples and it had terrible effects,
it depends on the people and how they are as parent rather then if they are married or not or a gay couple or not.

I think that like a lot of equality law it has to be brought about unfortunately via the EU courts due to the bigotry and ignorance and governments too afraid to rock thier grass root voters but the demographics of this country is changing and being at the church door shaking hands wont' be enough any more and so society is changing.

I completly agree with you, sane sex couples can fcuk up bringing a child up. That is where I would prefer single parents. Do you not agree that a child being raised by a gay couple would face a terrible time from their peers?

I have to disagree with you on the next point, I feel that having the eu bring such laws in is the wrong way to go about it. If it wouldn't pass a referendum it should not be forced upon the people.

ANXIOUS

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

I think we should do a poll on Boards.

By all means have a poll. They will agree by miles, unfortunetly boards.ie represents the minority of Irish people IMO. Boards.ie is much more liberal than main stream ireland.

Nevyn

ANXIOUS wrote: »

I completly agree with you, sane sex couples can fcuk up bringing a child up. That is where I would prefer single parents. Do you not agree that a child being raised by a gay couple would face a terrible time from their peers?

No more then a child who is non christian, or who is mixed race or has a disability or who has ginger hair.

Discrimination is taught at home, children don't see differences they are taught to and they are taught to think lesser of others by adults and that has to change. The start of that of that is to see all families as famlies under the law so that all children are the same with the same protections.

ANXIOUS wrote: »

I have to disagree with you on the next point, I feel that having the eu bring such laws in is the wrong way to go about it. If it wouldn't pass a referendum it should not be forced upon the people.

So the majority should be able to deny the human rights of others who are slightly different and in a certain type of minority?

Klingon Hamlet

ANXIOUS wrote: »

By all means have a poll. They will agree by miles, unfortunetly boards.ie represents the minority of Irish people IMO. Boards.ie is much more liberal than main stream ireland.

Sometimes a government must lead by example. We elected them to do make moral decisions for us. but they have not even opened up an opportunity for the people to decide on same sex marriage. I think it shows how cowardly they are---afraid that the average Irish person is not a bigoted weasel, that we as a people do want to see everyone enjoy the same level of respect and courtesy granted to all sections of society.

The sooner we get a referndum on this, the better. Then the few eejits stuck in the Dark Ages can finally realise what the term "equality" actually means.

ANXIOUS

Thaedydal wrote: »

No more then a child who is non christian, or who is mixed race or has a disability or who has ginger hair.

Discrimination is taught at home, children don't see differences they are taught to and they are taught to think lesser of others by adults and that has to change. The start of that of that is to see all families as famlies under the law so that all children are the same with the same protections.



So the majority should be able to deny the human rights of others who are slightly different and in a certain type of minority?

You obviously don't agree with me/ aren't going to agree with me, I would not be prepared to put a child be brought up by a same sex couple I to the lions den that is primary and secondary school at this present time.

I do not believe it is a same sex couples human right to raise or adopt children. If it was I'm sure you know how referendums work divorce abortion the good Friday agreement.

Nevyn

But we already have children being brought up by same sex couples in our primary and secondary schools.

ANXIOUS

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

Sometimes a government must lead by example. We elected them to do make moral decisions for us. but they have not even opened up an opportunity for the people to decide on same sex marriage. I think it shows how cowardly they are---afraid that the average Irish person is not a bigoted weasel, that we as a people do want to see everyone enjoy the same level of respect and courtesy granted to all sections of society.

The sooner we get a referndum on this, the better. Then the few eejits stuck in the Dark Ages can finally realise what the term "equality" actually means.

Firstly I do not believe the current goverment are cowardly.

Secondly if we had a referendum tomorrow that gave sane sex couples the right to adopt and marry do you think it would pass?

ANXIOUS

Thaedydal wrote: »

But we already have children being brought up by same sex couples in our primary and secondary schools.

You are correct. That is why I said I wouldn't. I do wish them the best of luck and hope that their parent and partner is prepared for the potential can of worms.

The_Minister

Thaedydal wrote: »

I don't know how they can uphold the constitution where it states 'all children are cherished equally' when we do not give them the same rights due to not recognising their family under law.

The Constitution doesn't say anything like that - the Proclamation does.

Nevyn

ANXIOUS wrote: »

You are correct. That is why I said I wouldn't. I do wish them the best of luck and hope that their parent and partner is prepared for the potential can of worms.

And should they not be supported like as a family?

ANXIOUS

Thaedydal wrote: »

And should they not be supported like as a family?

IMO no, because I do not feel they are doing it in the best interest of the child.

I know it shoulda harsh but having been a bullied child I wouldn't want any child to go through the torture of having a same sex up bringing.

Klingon Hamlet

ANXIOUS wrote: »

IMO no, because I do not feel they are doing it in the best interest of the child.

I don't think a straight couple make the best parents. Nor gay couples. I think 2 or more loving parents make good parents. Simple as.

ANXIOUS

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

I don't think a straight couple make the best parents. Nor gay couples. I think 2 or more loving parents make good parents. Simple as.

Are you not answeing my question about the referendum? In a perfect world I would agree. However at this moment in time I have to disagree.

Klingon Hamlet

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Are you not answeing my question about the referendum? In a perfect world I would agree. However at this moment in time I have to disagree.

I think it would be passed.

OUTOFSYNC

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

I don't think a straight couple make the best parents. Nor gay couples. I think 2 or more loving parents make good parents. Simple as.

I agree that 2 parents are better than 1. I also think two loving biological parents are the best option.

This doesn't necessarily mean they have to be married / together etc .

For example if two women raise a child - they both love the child and the child is well looked after etc etc - but the cild still has a father - and where is the dad? Okay he may have pissed off, or he may be dead....but also he may have been excluded by the biological mother......

I think if the father in this latter situation loves the child - then he should be more important in the child's life than the mothers girlfriend.......I dont think these concerns have been raised in the [little] when I have read about same-sex parenting.

lazygal

ANXIOUS wrote: »

While I agree with the two previous posters. I am a realist, I feel that a minority support same sex marriage and adoption. Would you both agree that I'd a referendum were held tomorrow on the issue it would be defeated?

I also think that the grieff a child being raised by a same sex couple, would have terrible side effects. Enough to IMO to say that I would be against it in the childs interests.

A Landsdown Market Research study done in Ireland in 2006 found 51% support for full marriage rights for SS couples and a further 30% supported civil partnerhsip rights. 10% were like you and think they deserve nada.
What would you do if a child of yours was gay, fell in love and wanted to get married and have a family?

Nevyn

ANXIOUS wrote: »

IMO no, because I do not feel they are doing it in the best interest of the child.

I know it shoulda harsh but having been a bullied child I wouldn't want any child to go through the torture of having a same sex up bringing.

Kids get bulled for all sorts of reasons, we should not try and make sure all children are the same but we should make sure they are treated the same and they and their families are supported.