BSC Physical Therapy Sept 2010

Invigorate

Hi

I realise this course has been discussed before in other threads, however I think it deserves a new thread for 2010 (apologies if I am wrong here).

I am interested in applying for the 2010 BSC in Physical Education run in the Priory Hall, Stillorglan. I was offered a place in the 2008 program but decided not to go ahead with it at the time. I am 29 now, getting married next year and I have been procrastinating over my career options for some time.

A career in Physical Therapy does really really interest me. I have played GAA for over 20 years at home and abroad. I have suffered many muscular injuries and received treatments from both Physio’s and Physical Therapists in this time.

My main concerns are:

1. Are there REAL job opportunities out there once qualified in 3 years time (2013)? If so where? i.e. do you have to start your own practice, work in a health clinic, work part time at nights? Are the opportunities in Dublin, Cork, Galway etc?
2. What is the average salary for a qualified Physical Therapist (for starting, after 5 years, 10 years etc?)
3. I know this course is now accredited as a Degree, but is it taken seriously in the health profession? Will the general public almost automatically choose a physio over a PT?

One of the main reasons I did not partake in the 2008 course was because IPTAS were not able to give a direct answer to these questions. I am in a permanent full time & pension job and I will only leave it if a career in PT is sustainable and viable (to provide for my future wife and kids).
However, I believe job satisfaction is the most important considerations and I believe I would be happier in a career in PT.

Can anyone please shed any light on my questions above? I would be interested in hearing from qualified Physical Therapists and Physio’s or anyone knowledgeable in this area.

Thanks

tinkerbell

Bumping this up as a family member is looking into doing this course too.

kob29

In a nutshell, you will most definitely be looking at self employment, you wont be hired by a chartered physiotherapy clinic no matter how good you are and it is impossible to be employed by the HSE with this degree. In reality its lower status than Physiotherapy degrees or either of the Sports Rehabilitation or Athletic Therapy degrees available.

If you qualify it will take you several years in all likelihood to build up a clinic that would justify leaving a fulltime job and you would most definitely have to be willing to work weekends and evenings as thats when most of your business would arrive.

Its extremely expensive for a degree that only gives self employment opportunities, not convinced that it will be recognised internationally either, certainly not above the degrees I previously listed. Im sure the range of skills taught on it are very good but the opportunities will be limited to self employment. There is also the issue of whether the governing bodies of sport will limit the qualifications that its affiliated teams can use?

karlitob

Hi,

There is no such thing as a BSc in Physical Therapy.

It is a BSc (Ordinary - Level 6) in Applied Sciences from HETAC. Only universities can offer Honours - Level 7 Degrees.

Go for the BSc Physiotherapy in RCSI, UCD, TCD or UL. Its a great job!!!






I am a chartered physiotherapist - this to confirm a few facts.

The World Health Organisation (WHO) is the associated health organisation of the United Nations. The World Confederation of Physical Therapists is an associated body of the WHO. The Irish Society of Chartered Physiotherapists (ISCP) is the only physiotherapy/physical therapy profession that is associated to the WCPT.
To be clear, the ISCP is the only professional body in Ireland in the area of physical therapy/physiotherapy to be associated with the WCPT. An the WCPT is an associated body of the WHO which in itself is an associated body of the UN. (The US Professional Body APTA uses the title Physical Therapist and is a member of the WCPT - so is the same as a chartered physiotherapist/physical therapist here)

To ISCP therefore accredits only 4 courses in the country - RCSI, UCD, TCD and UL. All graduates are eligible for membership to the ISCP. Only these graduates are chartered physiotherapists/physical therapists.

The Irish Society of Chartered Physiotherapists (ISCP) is the designated authority acting with the approval of the Minister for Health and Children for the recognition of physiotherapy qualifications in the Republic of Ireland (S.I.139/2008). The Qualification Recognition process is guided by EU Directive 2005/36/EC.


Irish Public Health system:

To be considered for employment in the Irish public health system, all prospective employees must be eligible for membership to the ISCP. To be eligible for membership, you need to have your physiotherapy qualifications recognised by the ISCP.

Irish Private Health sector:

To use the title "Chartered Physiotherapist" in the private sector, you will also need to have your physiotherapy qualifications recognised and subsequently be a current member of the ISCP.


What is in a name?

Chartered Physiotherapists and Physical Therapists are interchangeable names. <Those who 'qualify' from the Irish Association of Physical Therapy are 'physical therapists'>. The profession stems from an amalgamation of massueses and medical gymnasts in the UK in the 1920's - the received a charter from the king and became the Chartered Physiotherapists. UCD was the first course in Ireland. The course was taught here but the exam was performed in the UK and successful graduates were titled chartered physiotherapists So when the ISCP incorporated itself separately in 1983 they chose to keep the name 'chartered' as a reference to our past.


Protection of Title.

Ireland has no legislation to protect title of professions until 2005. So, occupational therapists, speech and language therapists etc have no protection either. The UK have the Health Professionals Council - when a physiotherapist receives there membership card it bears two titles - chartered physiotherapist/physical therapist. They are interchangeable terms. There are no 'physical therapists' in the UK.
The Allied Health Care & Social Professionals Act 2005 is still waiting to be fully implemented - of course in Ireland - this will offer protection of title for chartered physiotherapist/physical therapists and will do away with forum topics like this.


Qualification:

All chartered physiotherapists, there are over 4000 in the country, have a Level 8 Honours BSc in Physiotherapt Degree from a university with at least 1000 hours clinical education under the supervision of a senior physiotherapist/clinical specialist in large acute hospitals/private practices all over Ireland. In the hospital I work in over 25 therapists have a MSc (thats Level 9 out of 10 levels available in Ireland)

All 'physical therapists' have ....? who knows?...some do a weekend massage course, a HETAC sports therapist course or more recently the IAPT have offered a 'degree ' course in 'physical therapy' from HETAC. This is misleading. It is a Level 7 (Ordinary) BSc in Applied Sciences. This is not a higher level degree, it is not a degree in 'physical therapy' - it is a modular degree part time.

There is a huge difference between the quality of courses and lecturers. My lecturers are world leaders in there field. For example, my neurology lecturer was the chair of the group that determined guidelines for stroke care in Ireland - a government policy former as a lecturer. Another lecturer is performing a clinical research fellowship (thats a good thing)


Treatments:

The have been some very silly comments about who does what treatment.

It obviously depends on the patient. Physiotherapy/Physical Therapy uses physical treatments and modalities to optimise a patients function.

Eg Musculoskeletal Injury - ankle sprain, shoulder impingements, labral hip pathology. It is not the treatment that separates us but it the clinical reasoning and use of up-to-date current evidence based treatments that separate us. Massage is a treatment technique - is it used appropriately is the question. A multi-modal approach uses manual therapy, exercise therapy etc is used to treat. Is it ridiculous to think that chartered physiotherapists 'don't use there hands' - how stupid.

Obviously, physiotherapists see a range of patients from stroke, post-op and elderly patients. Now before anyone jumps the gun and says we don't treat sports because of these patients its important to remember that these are indeed the patients that need musculoskeletal treatments. So reversal of ileostomy will have abdominal surgery - these patients present with back pain because of altered/reduced muscle activity. Elderly patients suffer with such a wide range including OA, radiculopathies etc etc


Health Insurance:

All chartered physiotherapy treatments are covered under a separate title to 'physical therapists, bone setters, chiropractics' who are covered under complementary therapists. There is also less cover than for physiotherapists ie you get more return for a physiotherapist rather than a 'physical therapist'



Choice is of therapist is paramount for the consumer so is consumer safety. I can prove competence in all areas of clinical and professional competencies - a 'physical therapist' can't. I have the support, directly and indirectly, of my colleagues (superior in skill and knowledge, both physio's surgeons, medics, advanced nursing practicioners), of education and research (weekly in-services, basic CPD levels, personal development portfolios, conferences, journal clubs, journal access, peer-to-peer review). I also see a vast array of patients that private practicioners will never see eg those referred to surgeons and referred onto me in out-patient clinics in the hospital. Klippel-Feil Syndrome, Somatoform disorders, burns patients, plastics patients (really gruesome stuff - chopping off fingers, severing nerves, zig zag scars) amd the common stuff - ACLs, ankles, shoulders.



Am waiting for a barrage of replies!

LouiseMcNa

I went to a Chartered Physio and found her not great she just asked where was my pain then put some pads on me which gave small shocks, and then finished off with ultrasound. I was then sent to a Physical Therapist who sat down did a full history and some tests, showed me what was causing my injury and how he was going to treat it. I found him very very good and he works with a local rugby team and I think with a league of ireland soccer team. I am now going out with a chartered Physio who enlightened me on the whole thing. He is not insecure or threatened by physical therapists like the previous reply. He went to my guy and said he picked up some tips and said he really knew his stuff. He reckons there is room for good registered Physical therapists, and Sports therapists. Apparently Ger Hartman (limerick) who is considered the top guy in the world is a physical therapist and very proud of it, and is very unhappy with chartered physios he scorned them at some conferance a few years back. He feels they need to come into the new century.
My boyfriend worked in Australia (home of sport) and said they were very open to other therapies. So I can understand Physios getting upset that they spent four years in Uni, but the Physical Therapists also got HETEC degrees and spent fours years and a serious amount of hours studying. Think the real threat is people who do a 6 week course and say they are a Physio or Physical therapist. The chartered Physios (new batch) are very good and more hands on as I have been treated by my boyfriend. My physical Therapist (still go to him as its less complicated) sent my Dad to a surgeon he deals with for a knee problem a year ago, and the surgeon spoke highly of him so they do deal with Doctors and surgeons. Think the previous reply seems to have issues and maybe should just be confident in his own skillls - as my boyfriend said the cream rises and the crap sinks - so any bad Physio/physical therapists will get found out and not last too long, as in the business it is all word of mouth and not some angry litttle man having a rant on boards.
L

karlitob

Thanks for your reply Louise - very inspiring that you know the difference between physiotherapists/physical therapists and "physical therapists" as you seem to know both intimately.

My reply was based on facts.

I have no issue with people choosing whatever therapist they feel like - the issue is patient information. The obvious confusion of people on boards as to the difference between the two is a microcosm of whats going on. Also, as I say at the start - I am a chartered physio and obviously biased.

Its also great to know that Ger Hartmann is the best in the world because a few people you know think so - (nothing like a 'physical therapist' scorned)

LouiseMcNa

This is the only response I will make on this, You are embarrassing yourself and if you are as you say you are a Chartered Physio your embarrassing your profession. Your comment about knowing both professsions "intimately" is sly and very insulting. You may be that type of person but I am not and neither are my boyfriend or the Physical Therapist I mentioned.
I could be biased to the Chartered Physio's, but I like to go on reputation or from personal experience. Hence I tried one Chartered and found her not great for my injury, the Physcial Therapist was perfect. My boyfriend seems very good but likes to keep professional so I don't really go to him for treatments. I get the odd bit of advice and that is it, he knows his stuff.
As for Ger Hartman, try a quick google and enlighten yourself. Kelly holmes was told to pack in running in the early 2000s by her medical team, she went to Hartman and went on to win 2 Olympic golds, Radcliffe is a regular and after going to him went on to set the fastest marathon time. Both were on the retirement route from injuries before he sorted them. O'Gara (rugby guy) goes to him, GAA guys go to him, Kenyans fly over to him. So it is not "a few people say so" Its a few of the elite professionals say so. I saw in the paper last week Travolta flew him over to resolve his back problem (not saying actors are in the know, but just to prove he is well known).
That is all I will say, I would like an apology, but think your not the type. Just think you need to grow up, trust your training and skills and don't get hung up on titles, work on making a good name for yourself instead.
L

karlitob

[/QUOTE]
As for Ger Hartman, try a quick google and enlighten yourself. Kelly holmes was told to pack in running in the early 2000s by her medical team, she went to Hartman and went on to win 2 Olympic golds, Radcliffe is a regular and after going to him went on to set the fastest marathon time. Both were on the retirement route from injuries before he sorted them.
[/QUOTE]
Its almost as if no elite athlete goes to a chartered physio. He might see more patients if he wasn't so busy telling us how great he is and what patients he sees - so much for patient confidentiality.

[/QUOTE]
O'Gara (rugby guy) goes to him, GAA guys go to him, Kenyans fly over to him.
[/QUOTE]
O Gara uses a chartered physiotherapist every day of the week for the past 10 years of his career.

[/QUOTE]
Travolta flew him over to resolve his back problem
[/QUOTE]

- well if a scientologist says its true!

[/QUOTE]
That is all I will say
[/QUOTE]
- glad to see you can decide to leave a debate when you want.

I highlighted nothing but the differences in the professions from a registration, college point of view. I highlighted my position at the start and said I was biased.

SK12

Louise, I might be a bit late to this discussion but i think what you said was worthwhile and informative on the matter.

Karl, I understand your position on the matter and that most of your original comment was baised in fact but you are really letting yourself and your profession down.

I know some really great Chartered Physios and some really great Physical Therapists, as well as knowing crap versions of both.

Louise is dead right that the 6-12 week course are not at the races concerning the debate between registered Physical Therapists and Chartered Physiotherapist, but you need to come out from the dark and look into the course and its teachings before you go jumping the gun.

Just so you know. I have an hons degree from a uni, higher diploma to boot, as well as having numerous HETAC and other qualifications, and about to undertake a masters, so i wouldn't get all high and mighty about the level of the degree if the results are genuine and of a high quality.

With regard Ger Hartman, I dont know the man or fully agree with a lot of what he does, like trying to bring back Henry Sheflin for the all-ireland when realistically there was very little chance of it happening but I do not think that anyone is real in a position to comment on his ability until they have proven that the best want to be treated by them as well. So feel free to enlighten everyone on your gold winning patients!

LouiseMcNa wrote: »

This is the only response I will make on this, You are embarrassing yourself and if you are as you say you are a Chartered Physio your embarrassing your profession. Your comment about knowing both professsions "intimately" is sly and very insulting. You may be that type of person but I am not and neither are my boyfriend or the Physical Therapist I mentioned.
I could be biased to the Chartered Physio's, but I like to go on reputation or from personal experience. Hence I tried one Chartered and found her not great for my injury, the Physcial Therapist was perfect. My boyfriend seems very good but likes to keep professional so I don't really go to him for treatments. I get the odd bit of advice and that is it, he knows his stuff.
As for Ger Hartman, try a quick google and enlighten yourself. Kelly holmes was told to pack in running in the early 2000s by her medical team, she went to Hartman and went on to win 2 Olympic golds, Radcliffe is a regular and after going to him went on to set the fastest marathon time. Both were on the retirement route from injuries before he sorted them. O'Gara (rugby guy) goes to him, GAA guys go to him, Kenyans fly over to him. So it is not "a few people say so" Its a few of the elite professionals say so. I saw in the paper last week Travolta flew him over to resolve his back problem (not saying actors are in the know, but just to prove he is well known).
That is all I will say, I would like an apology, but think your not the type. Just think you need to grow up, trust your training and skills and don't get hung up on titles, work on making a good name for yourself instead.
L

karlitob

SK12 wrote: »

Louise, I might be a bit late to this discussion but i think what you said was worthwhile and informative on the matter.

Karl, I understand your position on the matter and that most of your original comment was baised in fact but you are really letting yourself and your profession down.

I know some really great Chartered Physios and some really great Physical Therapists, as well as knowing crap versions of both.

Louise is dead right that the 6-12 week course are not at the races concerning the debate between registered Physical Therapists and Chartered Physiotherapist, but you need to come out from the dark and look into the course and its teachings before you go jumping the gun.

Just so you know. I have an hons degree from a uni, higher diploma to boot, as well as having numerous HETAC and other qualifications, and about to undertake a masters, so i wouldn't get all high and mighty about the level of the degree if the results are genuine and of a high quality.

With regard Ger Hartman, I dont know the man or fully agree with a lot of what he does, like trying to bring back Henry Sheflin for the all-ireland when realistically there was very little chance of it happening but I do not think that anyone is real in a position to comment on his ability until they have proven that the best want to be treated by them as well. So feel free to enlighten everyone on your gold winning patients!

Thanks for bringing restarting a 2 1/2 year old thread - you're opinion on the matter is really appreciated. I really don't care what you think about me or if you feel that I'm letting my profession down. I am certain that I'm not. My first post is 100% accurate. You can do what you want after that.

SK12

I actually think you'll find its not 100% acurate.

In fact your completly wrong in your second sentence.

I didnt restart the thread to argue with anyone but to give a decent follow up to others considering becoming a Physical Therapist, not "Physical Therapist" as it was put. There is nothing wrong with furturing your education with a recognised degree. However if you do have the time and already have a degree you could look at doing the Post-grad in Physiotherapy, but unless your looking at leaving your current job for a job in the HSE(which are very hard to come by at the moment) or something similar, i'm not sure that it would be the right course for you.

I hope that if the original poster did go on with the course, he is now finishing up his 3rd year in his course and well on his way to becoming a competent, qualified, registered, Physical Therapist.

karlitob

SK12 wrote: »

I actually think you'll find its not 100% acurate.

In fact your completly wrong in your second sentence.

I didnt restart the thread to argue with anyone but to give a decent follow up to others considering becoming a Physical Therapist, not "Physical Therapist" as it was put. There is nothing wrong with furturing your education with a recognised degree. However if you do have the time and already have a degree you could look at doing the Post-grad in Physiotherapy, but unless your looking at leaving your current job for a job in the HSE(which are very hard to come by at the moment) or something similar, i'm not sure that it would be the right course for you.

I hope that if the original poster did go on with the course, he is now finishing up his 3rd year in his course and well on his way to becoming a competent, qualified, registered, Physical Therapist.

I think you'll find that I am 100% accurate especially in regard to my second sentence.

Your repost didn't offer anything that wasn't already said.

You can't become a Chartered Physiotherapist/Physical Therapist by doing a 'post-grad' course. You can only do an undergraduate course here in Ireland or a Masters (pre-reg) in the UK - def not the same as a post-grad course.

I will cont to use 'physical therapist'. Since chartered physiotherapists are members of the World Confederation of Physical Therapist (a WHO body) - unlike the 'physical therapists' - I will cont to use Physical Therapist to describe my profession. Kind of like bookkeeping for people pretending to be accountants.

Ignorantly, not all jobs for therapists are in the HSE. Naturally, there is a massive population of chartered physiotherapists working in private practice. One could begin a course in physiotherapy and work in a private practice.


Mod: not sure if this thread can contribute much more and would kindly suggest closing. Thank you.

mstimotay

@ Karlitob Plenty to contribute. Since when do you have the say when a thread gets closed. As of this year IPTAS Physical Therapy course now has the option for students to do a fourth year to make their qualification a Level 8 hons degree. As far as im aware the title Physical Therapy is protected within two European countries, the UK and possibly Croatia. Therefore as much as you write about WCPT you can practice under the IPTAS degree in many European countries where it is recognised and worldwide!!

You go on about Physiotherapists treat Klippel-Feil Syndrome, Somatoform disorders, burns patients, plastics patients and that is fantastic. That is why Physical Therapists have respect for physios as their qualification allows them to treat all these various conditions but you forget that an IPTAS physical Therapy students will now have 4years of gruelling study in one area alone that a physio can treat. A physio couldnt possibly have the same amount of study done on one area as it covers such a broad spectrum of the bodies systems in those 4 years. That graduate would have to specialise in that area after qualifying. So there is no point in comparing the two.

The reality is that a Physical Therapist will only treat what he/she is qualified to treat and they are extremely qualified in the treatment and prevention of Musculoskeletal dysfunction. The people who come to their clinics know this and recognise this. They dont come for respiratory problems, burns or strokes.

As for patient safety, to date there hasnt been one case where an Iptas complaint has been put in. They also must do yearly CPD courses to update the ever changing methods of treatment. Clinical reasoning and use of up-to-date current evidence based practice is the core of IPTAS so this nothion that this is what seperates the two is nonsense. The actual qualification is what separates the both and it is made clear what a Physical Therapist can and cannot do.

Dont get me wrong I know fantastic Physios and I have been treated all around europe by some of the best. I have been treated by Hartmann and I have been treated by lecturers from IPTAS. I can tell you I got the best treatment from Hartmann and the IPTAS lecturer hands down. The only physio that I ever got a fantastic treatment from was one who had a team made up of various therapies. The problem in Ireland is that there is a trend when you go to a clinic with physios. A few exercises, crossfiber friction and ultrasound and you are left lying in a room. Im not branding all with that statement as I have said before I have received fantastic treatment from some Physios but it is very true. A survey would highlight that problem very fast. I think where you find a physio who is very good is where they have specialised in some area of sport because remember we are talking about Physical Therapy here i.e. musculosketal conditions!!

I think if there is anything to take from this thread is that there is good and bad in all therapies and you must understand one therapy doesnt stand alone in providing top notch health care. A combination of all and a good working relationship between all is better for the client. My best example is Dr Hans Muller Wolfhart in Munich. He is a homoeopathic Dr. who if your lucky to get treatment from him will use a network of therapies to treat you all at once with great results. That includes physiotherapists, osteopaths, physical therapists, podiatrists, radiotherapy....

Some one like Karlitob who feels he is superior to other therapies will be the downfall to his own profession, it just makes you look like you are trying to dirty the competition when you could work with it.

mstimotay

PS Having affiliation to the WCPT doesnt really mean much if as a physiotherapist you cannot walk straight into the states to work as you must sit exams. In the end of the day your qualification is only relevant to the country you work in and in Ireland physiotherapy is the sole name that represents the qualification.

Physical Therapy is clearly not associated with your name in this country by law and other professions obviously work under this name. I do agree with most that there is a long standing qualification available from IPTAS that offers the highest standards in healthcare and patient welfare and there must be some sort of regulations put in place to differentiate the people who do a few weekend courses who technically can treat under the name physical therapist. You can check with confidence that your physical therapist is a member of the Irish Association of Physical Therapy but it does not clear up the confusion with the people who trade under the same name.