Dry-fire, or leave cocked?

firefly08

Just a general question about dry-firing. Let's say you pick up a gun, to look at it, or to hand it to someone, or to clean it, or whatever...so the first thing you do is open the bolt, or slide, or whatever, depending on the type of gun so you can check if it's loaded. Now it's cocked. So when you put it away, should you dry-fire it with nothing in the chamber, or leave it cocked? Which is better for the gun?

Sparks

Depends on the kind of gun. As a general rule of thumb, ask the person you just borrowed it off

Tackleberrywho

firefly08 wrote: »

Just a general question about dry-firing. Let's say you pick up a gun, to look at it, or to hand it to someone, or to clean it, or whatever...so the first thing you do is open the bolt, or slide, or whatever, depending on the type of gun so you can check if it's loaded. Now it's cocked. So when you put it away, should you dry-fire it with nothing in the chamber, or leave it cocked? Which is better for the gun?

Big debate on here a while back.
I would never leave a rifle cocked myself.

A rimfire will be damaged dry firing.
A centrefire will not be (but it is not the best thing over time)

Snapcaps seem to be the best solution.

I always dry fire upon taking a firearm off anyone. It was how I was taught in the DF and I do believe it is fool proof way "if done correctly and Safely ;of handing a firearm to another"

Any time I am in a gun shop, first thing I test is trigger pressure which involves dryfiring.

When in doubt ask the owners preferred method.
Owner may have snapcaps and may wish to use.
I dry fire any of my guns before handing to anyone.
It is my drill I do to keep things simple.

landkeeper

well i allways leave mine uncocked lift the bolt from the cocked position then hold the trigger and let the bolt close , i did that for years as a second safety
its safer than a cocked bolt

gunhappy_ie

If Im checking a B/A rifle I open bolt, check the chamber and hold the trigger back.......

Closing the bolt with the trigger pressed doesnt allow the sear to engage with the cocking piece in the bolt thus the rifle cannot be fired.

Snap caps are neeeded for shotguns and semi auto .22s.

Generally semi auto centerfire rifles/pistols are designed to take kind of abuse but in the case of a pistol with an external hammer it can be released gently.

FISMA

As stated, never leave a firearm cocked as it puts undue force on the spring.

I prefer to "slide-fire" my weapon. I am not sure if that's even a word, if not, then I will define it and claim it as my own.

Most firearms will offer a way to allow you to disengage a hot firing pin without a full [or any at all] dry fire. However, I believe (don't quote me) Glock claims there is no damage to their design by dry firing. DEFINITELY NOT TRUE OF ALL GUNS - especially older shotguns and revolvers.

Some actions are easier to disengage than others: revolvers with external hammers are easy, others like Glocks with the internal striker fire design cannot be slid fired.

Bolt actions are easy too. Suppose you have racked the bolt (hot pin), ensured there is no round in the chamber, and now you wish to decock without dry firing. Open the bolt by merely rotating the handle counter clockwise as viewed by the right handed shooter. Note: do not pull back back towards you. With the bolt handle at the topmost position, say 12:00, press the trigger. I'll stop here to again reiterate that there should not be a round in the chamber. Now, SLOWLY rotate the handle back to down and the firing pin should happily slide down. Thus, the term slide fire.

The same is true for most semi automatic handguns.

The problem is with a break action shotgun. Unless the manufacturer offered some special option, you have to get a snap cap.

Pump actions can be disengaged gracefully as well.

Some auto's take a bit to get used to. FWIW assault weapons such as the AR15, AK47/74, HK's, or even the humble Ruger 10/22 can be tricky to gracefully slide fire. Often you will have to pull the bolt back, press trigger, slide forward a hair, and repeat until you either get a minimal dry fire or the slide to which I refer. However, unless you encounter one while on vacation, you are not likely to have to worry about these - other than the 10/22.

As other posters mentioned, ask the person who owns the gun what their protocol is.

Perhaps, even more offensive to me than dry firing is when someone (using an auto) allows the slide to be released (without any resistance) when their is no round to chamber. I actually think this is worse (for modern firearms) than dry firing.

Finally, my other pet peeves are people imitating idiots in Hollywood. (1) Don't smack the bottom of the magazine so that it goes into the firearm. (2) When using a revolver with the action opened, don't do the rotate-smack-and-close I am cool method. You'll end up cracking the frame.

Please advise if there is a particular firearm to which your question was posted. Also, advise how old it is.

jwshooter

I store my rifles bolt out , im not a fan of decocking by closing the bolt with the trigger pulled .I cant see the point .

firefly08

Thanks guys.

FISMA, the one I'm mainly concerned about is a .22 automatic pistol (Browning Buck Mark)

deerhunter1

firefly08 wrote: »

Just a general question about dry-firing. Let's say you pick up a gun, to look at it, or to hand it to someone, or to clean it, or whatever...so the first thing you do is open the bolt, or slide, or whatever, depending on the type of gun so you can check if it's loaded. Now it's cocked. So when you put it away, should you dry-fire it with nothing in the chamber, or leave it cocked? Which is better for the gun?

Best way with most (Bolt Actions) is to open the bolt, squeeze the trigger, keep it squeezed and close the bolt, the bolt will close and the hammer will not cock and will not be cocked, other than that take the bolt out

deerhunter1

FISMA wrote: »

As stated, never leave a firearm cocked as it puts undue force on the spring.

I prefer to "slide-fire" my weapon. I am not sure if that's even a word, if not, then I will define it and claim it as my own.

Most firearms will offer a way to allow you to disengage a hot firing pin without a full [or any at all] dry fire. However, I believe (don't quote me) Glock claims there is no damage to their design by dry firing. DEFINITELY NOT TRUE OF ALL GUNS - especially older shotguns and revolvers.

Some actions are easier to disengage than others: revolvers with external hammers are easy, others like Glocks with the internal striker fire design cannot be slid fired.

Bolt actions are easy too. Suppose you have racked the bolt (hot pin), ensured there is no round in the chamber, and now you wish to decock without dry firing. Open the bolt by merely rotating the handle counter clockwise as viewed by the right handed shooter. Note: do not pull back back towards you. With the bolt handle at the topmost position, say 12:00, press the trigger. I'll stop here to again reiterate that there should not be a round in the chamber. Now, SLOWLY rotate the handle back to down and the firing pin should happily slide down. Thus, the term slide fire.

The same is true for most semi automatic handguns.

The problem is with a break action shotgun. Unless the manufacturer offered some special option, you have to get a snap cap.

Pump actions can be disengaged gracefully as well.

Some auto's take a bit to get used to. FWIW assault weapons such as the AR15, AK47/74, HK's, or even the humble Ruger 10/22 can be tricky to gracefully slide fire. Often you will have to pull the bolt back, press trigger, slide forward a hair, and repeat until you either get a minimal dry fire or the slide to which I refer. However, unless you encounter one while on vacation, you are not likely to have to worry about these - other than the 10/22.

As other posters mentioned, ask the person who owns the gun what their protocol is.

Perhaps, even more offensive to me than dry firing is when someone (using an auto) allows the slide to be released (without any resistance) when their is no round to chamber. I actually think this is worse (for modern firearms) than dry firing.

Finally, my other pet peeves are people imitating idiots in Hollywood. (1) Don't smack the bottom of the magazine so that it goes into the firearm. (2) When using a revolver with the action opened, don't do the rotate-smack-and-close I am cool method. You'll end up cracking the frame.

Please advise if there is a particular firearm to which your question was posted. Also, advise how old it is.

With a break action shotgun best way I think is after you have finished firing and you know you are finished take off the forend and then take off barrells,take out the spent shells, put back on barrells and forend and weapon will not be cocked, upon opening gun will hammers cock

Sparks

I'm with jw on this one.
(Get up off the floor Bunny.)

End of the day's shooting, the bolt comes out, gets de-cocked by hand (some Anschutz bolts are easy for this, some aren't, but all can be) and stored seperately.

gunhappy_ie

FISMA wrote: »

As stated, never leave a firearm cocked as it puts undue force on the spring.

I prefer to "slide-fire" my weapon. I am not sure if that's even a word, if not, then I will define it and claim it as my own.

Most firearms will offer a way to allow you to disengage a hot firing pin without a full [or any at all] dry fire. However, I believe (don't quote me) Glock claims there is no damage to their design by dry firing. DEFINITELY NOT TRUE OF ALL GUNS - especially older shotguns and revolvers.

Some actions are easier to disengage than others: revolvers with external hammers are easy, others like Glocks with the internal striker fire design cannot be slid fired.

Bolt actions are easy too. Suppose you have racked the bolt (hot pin), ensured there is no round in the chamber, and now you wish to decock without dry firing. Open the bolt by merely rotating the handle counter clockwise as viewed by the right handed shooter. Note: do not pull back back towards you. With the bolt handle at the topmost position, say 12:00, press the trigger. I'll stop here to again reiterate that there should not be a round in the chamber. Now, SLOWLY rotate the handle back to down and the firing pin should happily slide down. Thus, the term slide fire.

The same is true for most semi automatic handguns.

The problem is with a break action shotgun. Unless the manufacturer offered some special option, you have to get a snap cap.

Pump actions can be disengaged gracefully as well.

Some auto's take a bit to get used to. FWIW assault weapons such as the AR15, AK47/74, HK's, or even the humble Ruger 10/22 can be tricky to gracefully slide fire. Often you will have to pull the bolt back, press trigger, slide forward a hair, and repeat until you either get a minimal dry fire or the slide to which I refer. However, unless you encounter one while on vacation, you are not likely to have to worry about these - other than the 10/22.

As other posters mentioned, ask the person who owns the gun what their protocol is.

Perhaps, even more offensive to me than dry firing is when someone (using an auto) allows the slide to be released (without any resistance) when their is no round to chamber. I actually think this is worse (for modern firearms) than dry firing.

Finally, my other pet peeves are people imitating idiots in Hollywood. (1) Don't smack the bottom of the magazine so that it goes into the firearm. (2) When using a revolver with the action opened, don't do the rotate-smack-and-close I am cool method. You'll end up cracking the frame.

Please advise if there is a particular firearm to which your question was posted. Also, advise how old it is.

FISMA wrote: »

However, I believe (don't quote me) Glock claims there is no damage to their design by dry firing .

You will not damage C/F S/A like Glocks/HKs/Sigs etc as they are designed for or modified from a military/police pistol to a target gun. Both Glock and Hk (I dont know of any others who do it but Im sure they do) torture test there pistols to include dryfiring until parts start breaking.

FISMA wrote: »

Some auto's take a bit to get used to. FWIW assault weapons such as the AR15, AK47/74, HK's, or even the humble Ruger 10/22 can be tricky to gracefully slide fire .

Uve lost me completely on that ! S/A or if on holidays F/A rifles cannot be "slide fired". The triggers are different in comparison to each other and are designed completely differently than a single shot firearm.

The above mentioned rifles are battle rifles (with the exception of the 10/22 but the same principle applies) or can be purchased as civilain versions for target shooting, either way they can be fry fires until the cows come home and they will not break a firing pin (i wouldnt count on a 10/22 for that though)

and I have a HK rifle so i can confirm that !

FISMA wrote: »

Perhaps, even more offensive to me than dry firing is when someone (using an auto) allows the slide to be released (without any resistance) when their is no round to chamber. I actually think this is worse (for modern firearms) than dry firing.

That is actually the correct way to operate a rifle. Leaving the action go forward slowly increases the likelyhood that the bolt will not move into its fully forward position to lock and this means that the firearm cannot be fired.


As for being worse for the gun.... it makes no difference ! Each time you fire a semi auto (in simple terms) the recoiling bolt slams into its rearward position before the recoil spring that has been compressed on the rearward movement reasserts itself forcing the bolt forward into battery.

Its down to personal preferance though if your happy to let the action go forward easily then go ahead.

FISMA wrote: »

Finally, my other pet peeves are people imitating idiots in Hollywood. (1) Don't smack the bottom of the magazine so that it goes into the firearm .

Again that is what I was trained to do and for good reason, magazines dont always sit in correctly and id feel like a bigger idiot if the magazine fell out (especially full of ammo the extra weight helps :P )

Hollywood didnt make it up... they took it from watcing or after gettin advice from military/LE personel.

FISMA wrote: »

When using a revolver with the action opened, don't do the rotate-smack-and-close I am cool method. You'll end up cracking the frame.

However it may annoy you frames are made of steel not porcelain.... unless you bought a POS uve nothing to worry about.

To the OP...

.22s are notorious for breaking firing pins.

either leave the pistol cocked (it would take years to damage anything) or use a fired casing as a snap cap.

For safety paint it a bright colour !

Snap caps for .22lr seem to be rare/unreliable or just used .22 casings !!

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=25855/pid=9923/sku/_22_LR_Orange__Qty_50?review=1

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=16760/pid=31872/sku/Rimfire_Dummies___22_Long_Rifle__per_50?review=1

If you want them from brownells I order stuff regularly so it wouls save you alot on shipping if you still want them and cant get them here.

Either way great pistol and play safe :P

Sparks

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

Snap caps for .22lr seem to be rare/unreliable or just used .22 casings !!

Nope. You can use .22 casings, but you have to rotate them. Or you can get a bag of these from the NSRA:

It wasn't me!

Rifles are stored bolts out. Anschutz bolt gets de-cocked, Sako does not.

Cass

firefly08 wrote: »

............ So when you put it away............,

As with the other lads, i presume you mean stored in your gun safe. I would then say the same as JW, IWM. All my bolts are removed from the rifles, and stored in a seperate and hidden safe. Nothing to do with leaving "cocked" or not, just plain security. Don't want some scumbag breaking in and having access to rifle with bolt already inserted.

elius

Sparks wrote: »

I'm with jw on this one.
(Get up off the floor Bunny.)

End of the day's shooting, the bolt comes out, gets de-cocked by hand (some Anschutz bolts are easy for this, some aren't, but all can be) and stored seperately.

yey do this with my Anschutz and store it seperate to the gun...

FISMA

gunhappy_ie,

In general, I think we agree. However , I will make a couple of points and I will defer the last response to you.

First, we should always stress safe handling and proper methodology. I believe that if the magazine does not slide in and click easily, one shoud assume that something potentially is wrong. Don't just give it a smack and drive her home like the lads in SWAT.

If that much force is necessary, you should check the magazine, receiver, et al. When the magazine does not want to go in, there's usually a good reason. Safety first.

We are not the Special Branch nor the Rangers, chances are no-one's shooting back. Let us stress patience and dilligence and NEVER be in a rush.

In general, dry firing is a bad idea as firing pins are designed to strike something, not nothing.

For the same reason, allowing a slide to slam forward without cambering a round is an equally bad idea. The slide is designed to grab and chamber a round. Without the inertia of the chambered round, the slide hits forward at a considerably greater speed and Force. Again, you will probably get away with it, however, it is just bad practice.

You appear to state that manufacturers dry fire until stuff starts breaking. I am sure you mean that this happens over a large amount of dry fires. However, isn't this yet another reason to not dry fire. FWIW, I thought Glock's striker fire overcame this problem and that dry firing was not an issue at all.

Also, note that the OP was talking about proper etiquette - as in someone else's gun.

Here are the rules that, IMHO, we should all play by and demand, when seeking to handle a firearm (please add if I have overlooked something):

(1) The person from whom you receive the firearm should, in front of you, before handing you the gun: (a) open the action, (b) lock the action back/open, and (c) inspect the chamber.

(2) If the person holding the firearm fails to do so, politely request they do so.

(3) If #1 is satisfied, you may receive the firearm. However, you should immediately inspect the chamber. Also, if the person simply puts the firearm on the counter, ask permission to handle the firearm.

(4) Do NOT dry fire their gun. If you want to, ask if it is okay with them.

(5) DO NOT allow an auto's slide to slam forward. Instead, resist the motion of the slide with your free hand.

(6) ASK if it is okay to shoulder, point, or what not in the air.

(7) DO NOT point it at anyone or anything.

(8) When you are done, repeat #1 and hand back to the original person.

As far as slamming closing a revolver, again, bad practice and not what the original manufacturer had intended for the frame.

All metals/alloys have their breaking point. We should not be encouraging Hollywood style antics when handling firearms. Here's one that was found thankfully before anyone got hurt.
http://media.photobucket.com/image/S%252526W%20642%20with%20a%20cracked%20frame/bnkrtstk/103_6066.jpg

Finally, and with all due respect, I do not take my cues, etiquette, or good practice from LE or military. Please do not take any disrespect, however, in general, I find them to have, some of the worst practices of all shooters.

To the LE and military, a firearm is a tool that they must use. To myself and I expect many on the board, it is a passion, a hobby, and a part of who we want to be, not have to be.

Again, no disrespect to yourself or any LE.

firefly08,
Does the Browning Buck Mark have a firing pin block? In general, do not dry fire center fires - get some snap caps. I think you are going to have to do some research on your particular Buckmark to see if the pin hits the frame. The info online appears to be both ways. If you have already dry fire a few times, inspect for peen marks.

If you have to dry fire, pull the slide all the way back and press the trigger. Allow the slide to slowly move forward and the pin should disengage while the slide is towards the read.

If not, pull the slide back, allow it to slide forward (1.0mm) and pull the trigger. Continue this forward 1.0mm and pull until the pin releases. This is what I have done on my numerous 22 Autos and have never broken a pin.

But again, get some snap caps or like sparks said, chamber some old brass and rotate.

Tackleberrywho

It's down to how carefull you are with it.

Takes a lot of dry firing to do harm.
You'll prob have dropped her more and cleaned her less before then

jwshooter

some years ago a very experienced deer stalker friend ,had a client out .
he had this man out a few times over the years and trusted him as far as we do "..." THAT LENTH .

At the end of the stalk we make a point of unloading rifles and mags .the client this did the same and went to decock his rifle ( BOOM ) .

the shot went into a bank beside the jeep ,the client was very upset as he could not understand how the round stayed chambered .both men had a wake up call for free .

It wasn't me!

jwshooter wrote: »

some years ago a very experienced deer stalker friend ,had a client out .
he had this man out a few times over the years and trusted him as far as we do "..." THAT LENTH .

At the end of the stalk we make a point of unloading rifles and mags .the client this did the same and went to decock his rifle ( BOOM ) .

the shot went into a bank beside the jeep ,the client was very upset as he could not understand how the round stayed chambered .both men had a wake up call for free .

Need to make a point of visually inspecting the chamber and checking it with a finger. I always do. I can just imagine how that poor fecker felt. Would not be a good day.

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Need to make a point of visually inspecting the chamber and checking it with a finger. I always do. I can just imagine how that poor fecker felt. Would not be a good day.

In the DF we use, for inspection purposes, port arms.

Bolt/action back mag out inspect to see no brass.
Then dry fire.

In my hunting rifle I work the bolt 3 times, If you missed it the first, missed it the second you WILL not miss it the third.

It's my routine, and it works well for me.

I pick up bits from the DF which I think are useful.
I try and imalgamate them clever tricks into my routine.

When dry firing I still take a safe point of aim, even though I have established it is not loaded. Then back in the Rifle slip and back home.

Manic Moran

All my firearms are milspec. I am aware of no issues with dry firing any of them. (Granted, only the one is a bolt action, everything else is semi). Certainly none of my manuals come with any warnings about it. I also can recall no concerns over dry firing any weapon other than M240/FN-MAG when going through either Irish or US military training (and I think the latter is simply due to the momentum of the entire bolt/gas piston assembly affecting handling and noise, really). Since most people don't own FN-MAGs, this likely won't be a problem.

An interesting position is posed by the AR-15 type rifles, which cannot be placed on 'safe' when the hammer is forward. As a result, an M-4 or M-16 will spend an entire year with the hammer cocked when on deployment, with no ill effects. I wonder if there is a correlation with the old wive's tale about storing magazines with ammunition in them. Though metallurgically nothing is going to happen to the spring because of it, a lot of people think that the spring should have the tension released and will cycle their magazines.

NTM

Sparks

Don't think it's an old wives tale for match rifles MM, at least not for my kind of match rifle. But then, we use trigger weights down around the 40 gramme mark, the AR-15 is what, two pounds? There's more wiggle room there.

juice1304

i always put a fired case in the chamber when i put it away or take it out to have a look so i don't mess up the pin when i dry-fire it.

firefly08

Well out of curiosity I checked the manual for my Buck Mark and it says when finished shooting, or when unloading the gun, press the slide release button to let the slide forward, put the gun on safe, and put it away.

My bolt action rifle is a is an antique Mosin Nagant which has survived 2 world wars and the Russian Revolution so needless to say I don't have the manual but I am not going to worry too much about breaking it

FISMA

firefly,
The Nagants are very easy to disengage just open bolt, hold trigger, and close bolt.

Actually, this rifle is one of those that I would suspect could break a pin. The older, the easier. Also, Russian pins are known for being of, let's just say not the best quality. Even some modern Baikal's have had issues.

With that said, it is also pretty easy to strip the Nagant's bolt and replace the pin. If I were you I would grab a few extras. I bet someone even makes a better after market part.

What do you shoot out of it? Hopefully, not that corrosive stuff .

Did you get a star or a sickle? Octagonal barrel?

firefly08

I have been shooting some nasty Bulgarian surplus corrosive ammo out of it! But I've been cleaning it...

Actually I've found you can grip the safety (which is attached to the striker) and then pull the trigger and let the safety forward gently - does that seem like a good way to de-cock it?

Edit: it's an octagonal or hex receiver alright, not a round one. No sickle or anything like that, it's a Finnish M39 model, although built on a 1895 Russian-made receiver.

FISMA

As long as you're not hearing that heavy drop, you should be fine.

I think what you're saying is good. It has been a while since I handled the Nagant. Think they were the 38 and the 91/30.

You do have to immediately clean them. Even a few hours can pit them.

I would imagine that the Fins would not want many sickles or stars on theirs.

Safe shooting...

pedroeibar1

The question is a non-sequitor. You do not have to dryfire to uncock a gun. That is what snap caps are for.
There was/is a practice of uncocking guns before storage due to a belief that the V-shaped mainsprings on sidelocks are weakened by storing the gun cocked. Many modern guns now have coil springs so the practice is irrelevant.
Personally, I would leave any older shotgun cocked than dryfire it without a snapcap because the potential damage to the firing pin is far greater than to the mainspring, for metallurgical reasons.
If it is a DF gun, well, it’s not your problem to get it fixed.
P.

Tackleberrywho

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The question is a non-sequitor. You do not have to dryfire to uncock a gun. That is what snap caps are for.
There was/is a practice of uncocking guns before storage due to a belief that the V-shaped mainsprings on sidelocks are weakened by storing the gun cocked. Many modern guns now have coil springs so the practice is irrelevant.
Personally, I would leave any older shotgun cocked than dryfire it without a snapcap because the potential damage to the firing pin is far greater than to the mainspring, for metallurgical reasons.
If it is a DF gun, well, it’s not your problem to get it fixed.
P.

Not quite, you will get your wages docked if you break a rifle, but that is going off topic.

The OP was talking about a pistol, I would always dry fire my pistol with mag out as a general safety/unloading practice.

My shot gun is a semi, I dry fire too.
All my rifles I dry fire.

However, if the firearm is not mine (in a dealers) I ask can I dry fire problem solved OP:D
If the dealer does not have an issue, then you do not have one.

If you use your firearm a lot get a few snap caps.
Quote
firefly08
FISMA, the one I'm mainly concerned about is a .22 automatic pistol (Browning Buck Mark)
Quote

pedroeibar1

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055902975&page=2

................................but it is down to simple metallurgy and it is quite differenet for guns with pins and those with clunky hammers that make contact with the primers. The correct tempering of a firing pin hardens its outside (giving durability), leaving a slightly softer interior (giving strength.) If the inner core temperature gets too high, it will harden the entire firing pin. Metals hardened in this way are brittle and can shatter, (think of hard plastic/soft plastic.) When a firing pin hits a “soft” detonator it de-accelerates slowly, so the shock is not great. If it hits nothing, the shock waves reverberate within the pin and can cause it to shatter. That is why – in the old days - good shotguns and rifles came with snap caps and a little canister containing spare firing pins - it also is why all “best” guns have disc-set strikers.