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What do you think of Irelands neutrality during WW2?
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However I don't believe that qualifies as Persecution of the Christian faith. Particularly in comparison to an actual programme of persecution of the Christian faith as practiced by the bolsheviks.
I fully agree with you there is really no comparison between the how Germany treated their religious communities and how religious communities were treated by the USSR (particularly under Lenin and Stalin).0 -
I fully agree with you there is really no comparison between the how Germany treated their religious communities and how religious communities were treated by the USSR (particularly under Lenin and Stalin).
As a sidenote - in addition to the HJ reference there was also potential friction in relation to the formation of the Freiwiliger arbeitsdienst, precursor of the NSAD and Reichsarbeitsdienst. This was also based on a myriad of forcibly amalgamated clubs and organisations - which included religious mens clubs.0 -
And in Ireland of 2011 it would be called presecution. The gradual eradication of the rights and role of churches in 1930's germany was not comparable with the USSR. When taken on its own (i.e. instead of comparing with USSR I would compare the german treatment with being allowed to practice ones religon in freedom) it is accurate to describe it as persecution.However I don't believe that qualifies as Persecution of the Christian faith. Particularly in comparison to an actual programme of persecution of the Christian faith as practiced by the bolsheviks.
In fact much of the above would not be entirely out of place in Secular Ireland of 2011.
Apologies for bieng pedantic but just to be clear, this is an accepted definition by most observers (I would imagine). Persecute:to pursue with harassing or oppressive treatment, especially because of religion, race, or beliefs; harass persistently. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/persecute
It is clear from the previous posts that there were in fact numerous cases of the germans targeting christian groupings. That they did this in a more methodical way than they targeted other races should not fool any observer of the period.
This last part is purely a side issue: In relation to the book 'black edelweiss', did you feel that the SS hid the church bell due to their wish for religous freedom, or due to their feelings of kinship towards the villagers who expected the bell to be stolen?0 -
Still no source for this then, No ??If Hitler won the war he would have used Irish people to build the Autobahn to the far east i.e. useful extermination.
Ok, I guess we can write it off as "Myth Busted" then. :rolleyes:
So, just to maintain a sense of perspective, I think we should move on to the beguiling little gem below that you posted, which, when you read the text, amounts to nothing more than racial hatred against Catholics.Pictures tell a thousand words.
http://alamoministries.com/content/english/Antichrist/nazigallery/photogallery.html
A picture might well tell a thousand words.... But a website tells infinitely more besides.
Check out the index page for the site gigino posted, and see if it rings any bells.
As well as, so far, refusing to back up his claims about imaginary Irish labourers working on the Trans-Siberian Autobahn, gigino has chosen to reference the website of a Religious Cult Leader, who is, not only a Polygamist, but a Paedophile (as his second wife was 8 years old), and a Child Pornographer, who was convicted on 10 counts of transporting minors across the United States, to his compound, for the purposes of sexual exploitation, and who, on top of all that, had been incarcerated on a weapons related offence.
He is currently serving a 175 year jail sentence in at the Federal Correctional Institution (FCI) in Terre Haute, Indiana.
Pastor *cough* Tony Alamo
Model Citizen, an acedemic golden nugget no less :rolleyes::rolleyes:0 -
As for the clergy, they did not escape the reach of the SS either, especially the Catholic Church. When the Nazis took over, they argued for a less divisive religious atmosphere in Germany. The Calvinists and Lutherans were united under the German Evangelical Church and its membership was comprised of the majority of the German populace. The German Evangelical Church was also perfectly suited for Nazi designs because the church was conservative and German while the Catholic Church in Germany professed allegiance to Rome. The Nazis undertook to Nazify the Evangelical church by creating a pressure group known as the German Christians. By summer 1933, many pastors were giving sermons in SA or SS uniforms. Some pastors were jailed for speaking out against the new regime. Others were barred from preaching. By 1937, over 700 Protestant pastors were in jail, and one of the leading opponents of the Nazification of the church, Martin Niemoller, was arrested. He was acquitted of all charges but found the Gestapo waiting for him when he was freed in 1938 and was put in solitary confinement at Sachsenhausen Concentration Camp.
The Catholic Church boasted 20 million members in Germany, about one third of the population. In 1936, Richard Heydrich, the head of the Gestapo classified the Catholic Church along with Jews as the two main threats to Nazism. On July 20, 1933, all Catholic newspapers were ordered to remove the word, “Catholic” from their moniker. In Bavaria, on September 19, 1933, Heinrich Himmler banned Catholic church activities save for choir rehearsals, youth groups and charitable events. German Catholic Cardinals felt their best course of action was to openly align themselves with the Reich. This they did, yet still the Gestapo moved against them. By 1933, the Secret State Police had begun surveillance of Catholics in Germany. During the Night of the Long Knives, the Gestapo murdered Erich Klausener, the General Secretary of Catholic Action as well as Adalbert Probst, the National Director of the Catholic Youth Sports Association. Also killed that night was Fritz Gerlich, the editor of the Catholic weekly newspaper, The Strait Way. By 1935, tougher measures were undertaken by the Gestapo. They limited public meetings, censored the remaining Catholic newspapers, even banning certain issues and forcing them to accept Nazis in editorial positions. The Nazis also attempted to sway younger people to joining the Hitler Youth and League of German Girls but priests and other Catholics resisted. By 1936, open hostility existed between the Nazis and the Catholic Church and Himmler and the SS increased the pressure. Secret agents were planted in Church organizations. Priests were harassed by the police. By 1938, most Catholic youth groups had been banned. In 1935 and 1936 a campaign against the Catholic hierarchy included the arrest and conviction of monks and priests accused of molesting children, the accusations often fabricated. By April 1937, supposedly more than a thousand of these men were awaiting trial. The effect of these “trials” was to reduce the number of children attending Catholic schools and by the outbreak of war, all religious schools had been converted to community schools and all private schools run by the Church had been shut down or nationalized. In some areas within Germany, it was the Gestapo which had driven the Catholic Church out of public life. http://www.stauffenbergthemovie.com/history_ss.html
Not the greatest source i'll grant but this piece gives an overview/ summary of the situation as it developed in these years.0 -
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jonniebgood1 wrote: »And in Ireland of 2011 it would be called presecution.
We are not going to agree that the NS regime persecuted the Christian faith anytime soon.
Yes there were random, minor incidents of harrasment, erosion of influence and power and so on.
More often than not it appears the minor incidents of harrassment were on the basis of suppression of opposition. That is to say on the basis that random clergy vocally opposed the regime and so were suppressed rather than being suppressed on the basis of their christianity. Even if there were incidents of priests being arrested for being christian - it would be the extreme exception and not the rule. Not all priests were arrested/shot etc or anything even remotely clsoe to being in that ballpark.
Left handed unicyclists who opposed the regime would also have been suppressed - it does not then follow that left handed unicyclists were persecuted on the basis of their left-handedness or fondness for unicycles.
Nor do the examples above amount to a persecution of the Christian faith on the basis of it's christianity.
It amounts to suppression of opposition who ocassionaly happened to include clergy.
Nuns, priests and bishops were not rounded up and shot because they were nuns, priests and bishops.
Church property was not confiscated because it belonged to the church.
Christian Churches were not systematically destroyed because they were christian places of worship.
So particularly in relation to the gold standard of persecution of christianity (which is the Soviet/Bolshevik systematic persecution of the Christian faith) the relationship between the NS state and organised christian religion are not even remotely in the same league. Saying the NS regime persecuted the christian faith is a disingenous, manipulative stretch. It is not backed up by proof of a systematic programme of persecution on the basis of christianity.
It is a compilation of slight erosions of influence, coupled with random, localised minor incidents. None of which involves the persecution of someone on the sole basis of their christian faith so much as the suppression of opposition who happened to be clergy. I know you like to go around in circles all day throwing up random internet 'sources' but in reality life is too short. I am not sure which of us is less bright, you for not getting the distinction - point a & point b as previously posted :If you don't understand the difference between a & b :
a)
The NS regime suppressing opponents, (including those who happen to be a priest).
b)
Bolshevik suppression of every priest because they are a priest. Confiscating all church land and assets and property, wiping out thousands of clergy (priests, bishops & nuns) etc etc.
The NS regime raised many thousands of foreign volunteers across occuppied europe to fight bolshevism. A cornerstone of this support was based upon protection of the christian faith from atheistic, expansionist bolshevism. The notion that the NS regime suppressed christianity is what is laughable. The difference between point a) and b) above may be beyond your comprehension but they are key to understanding this. If you don't understand the difference point a) and point b) then there is absolutely no point continuing this.
or me for thinking that you really should recognise the difference between persecution of the christian faith and a series of erosions and minor incidents which fall way short of being reasonably described as the Persecution of the Christian Faith.0 -
catholic hitler ?, when slovakia became a nazi puppet state it was led by a catholic priest jozef tiso,during this period approximately 70,000 slovak jews were sent to concentration camps to perish in the holocaust. archbishop alojzije boldly proclaimed,god who directs the destiny of nations and controls the hearts of kings, has given us ante pavelic,and moved the hearts of a friendy and allied people, adolph hitler,to use his victorious troops to disperse our oppressors and enable us to create a independent state of croatia,glory be to god and our gratitude to adolf hitler and infinite loyality to chief ante pavelic,palelic was named the archbishop supreme military apostolic vicar of the ustashi army,at the end of the war the archbishop was sentenced to 16 years as a war criminal,the pope was so outraged,he ordered the excommunication of anyone who participated in the trial,after his release in 1951,he returned to the vatican and was rewarded with a cardinalship,and in 1998 ,pope john paul announced the beatification of the war criminal [,the first step to sainthood]0
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So particularly in relation to the gold standard of persecution of christianity (which is the Soviet/Bolshevik systematic persecution of the Christian faith) the relationship between the NS state and organised christian religion are not even remotely in the same league. Saying the NS regime persecuted the christian faith is a disingenous, manipulative stretch. It is not backed up by proof of a systematic programme of persecution on the basis of christianity.
It is a compilation of slight erosions of influence, coupled with random, localised minor incidents. None of which involves the persecution of someone on the sole basis of their christian faith so much as the suppression of opposition who happened to be clergy. I know you like to go around in circles all day throwing up random internet 'sources' but in reality life is too short. I am not sure which of us is less bright, you for not getting the distinction - point a & point b as previously posted :
or me for thinking that you really should recognise the difference between persecution of the christian faith and a series of erosions and minor incidents which fall way short of being reasonably described as the Persecution of the Christian Faith.
You are trying to bend what persecution is to suit what you initially said. I would point out that the persecution of the Jews also started out with a "series of erosions and minor incidents", not that I would compare the 2. If a modern government, say some of the north African states nowadays carried out the same series of repressions against religon they would be slated for persecution. You are correct about one thing- we are not going to agree on this.0 -
In hindsight i think we should have gone to war if for nothing more than the money from the Americans that the rest of Europe got to rebuild after the war.
However for the people at the time i think the right decision was made based on what information they had.
I could have seen us had we joined the war being used as cannon fodder rather than an integral part of the armies.0 -
the vatican is the only german church not [as yet] to pay out compensation to its victims,[a few of the lucky ones are still alive to testify]they are also accused of taking nazi gold and salting it away in swiss banks they promised open their books to prove that they dident in 2000, the world is still waiting,[they will never show them] and dont you find it strange that the church of rome has never excommunicated a nazi ?
Chase Manhattan bank did something similar. They had a branch in Paris that remained open throughout the war, and extorted money from only the wealthiest European Jews who could afford to pay to get out. These very wealthy Jews arrived in the US pennieless as a result. *
some info here and here
* I'm the first to be prissy about links to relevant reliable sources, so I think it's important to say, that I viewed a lengthy BBC Documentary regarding this issue some years ago. I have it on video tape, so will have to dig it out, which I will do in the next 24hrs, so as to provide the type of concrete sources I would expect other posters to provide to back up their claims.
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catholic hitler ?, when slovakia became a nazi puppet state it was led by a catholic priest jozef tiso,during this period approximately 70,000 slovak jews were sent to concentration camps to perish in the holocaust. archbishop alojzije boldly proclaimed,god who directs the destiny of nations and controls the hearts of kings, has given us ante pavelic,and moved the hearts of a friendy and allied people, adolph hitler,to use his victorious troops to disperse our oppressors and enable us to create a independent state of croatia,glory be to god and our gratitude to adolf hitler and infinite loyality to chief ante pavelic,palelic was named the archbishop supreme military apostolic vicar of the ustashi army,at the end of the war the archbishop was sentenced to 16 years as a war criminal,the pope was so outraged,he ordered the excommunication of anyone who participated in the trial,after his release in 1951,he returned to the vatican and was rewarded with a cardinalship,and in 1998 ,pope john paul announced the beatification of the war criminal [,the first step to sainthood]
You could apply the same logic and accuse all of the east European partizans who, as members of the Russian Orthodox church, helped eradicate the jews/gypsies/homosexuals etc and helped aid and abet Nazi Germany in the hope of their overthrowing Communism.
Adolf Hitler may have been baptised but he was no more Roman Catholic than the man in the moon.0 -
You are right on all of those points.
However I don't believe that qualifies as Persecution of the Christian faith. Particularly in comparison to an actual programme of persecution of the Christian faith as practiced by the bolsheviks.
In fact much of the above would not be entirely out of place in Secular Ireland of 2011.
I don't have the time to post a full reply or find my sources here so this is going to be very short (I'll return to it tomorrow). I think it is fair to say however that had the Germans won the war that Christianity would quite possibly become persecuted in a manner similar to that of the Soviet Union. The SS in particular (in addition to several members of Hitlers inner circle) were very much in favour of replacing Christianity with a pagan religion. Many Gauletier in fact carried out radical anti chruch activities in the late 1930s but were reigned in by the Nazi Party. Effectively, the campaign against Christianity was suspended until the war was over and proper resources could be devoted as it was neccessary to keep the Churches on side during the war.0 -
HavingCrack wrote: »I don't have the time to post a full reply or find my sources here so this is going to be very short (I'll return to it tomorrow). I think it is fair to say however that had the Germans won the war that Christianity would quite possibly become persecuted in a manner similar to that of the Soviet Union.
As you say that is pure groundless speculation. You could also speculate that following an end of bolshevism and the bolshevik suppression of christianity that the christian church (orthodox, catholic, protestant) and N.S. party would have resolved their differences and found new common ground.HavingCrack wrote: »The SS in particular (in addition to several members of Hitlers inner circle) were very much in favour of replacing Christianity with a pagan religion. Many Gauletier in fact carried out radical anti chruch activities in the late 1930s but were reigned in by the Nazi Party. Effectively, the campaign against Christianity was suspended until the war was over and proper resources could be devoted as it was neccessary to keep the Churches on side during the war.
I think it helps to not view them as some kind of monolothic single-thought entity.
When referring to 'the SS' do you mean any of the 40 or so frontline battle divisions ? The hundreds of thousands of members drawn from all over europe or are you referring to Himmler ? Also when you say 'were in favour of replacing the christian faith with paganism' do you mean they wanted to forcibly replace the christian faith among christians of Europe/Rusia or among 'themselves' ?
The SS did have a pagan aspect, this was limited in scope and a lot of trashy books and trashy tv documentaries tend to blow this out of all proportion much as they do with occultism or anything salacious. Indeed many SS man in their ID papers signified 'christian no organised religion' as their faith. Having a pagan aspect is different to suppressing the christian faith on bolshevik - 'round up the priests, nuns, bishops for execution, confiscate all assets, wealth and land, physically destroy places of worship' - lines.0 -
....... that is pure groundless speculation.Quote:
Originally Posted by HavingCrack View Post
I don't have the time to post a full reply or find my sources here so this is going to be very short (I'll return to it tomorrow). I think it is fair to say however that had the Germans won the war that Christianity would quite possibly become persecuted in a manner similar to that of the Soviet Union.
You could also speculate that following an end of bolshevism and the bolshevik suppression of christianity that the christian church (orthodox, catholic, protestant) and N.S. party would have resolved their differences and found new common ground.
Is it really a groundless theory? I would say the series of laws taking power from the churches would be grounds for this being a likely outcome, or at least possible unlike your example which is silly (as you meant it to be I presume!).0 -
jonniebgood1 wrote: »Is it really a groundless theory? I would say the series of laws taking power from the churches would be grounds for this being a likely outcome, or at least possible unlike your example which is silly (as you meant it to be I presume!).
The Labour Party and Fine gael have undeniably eroded some powers of the Christian church in Ireland recent times.
Does that then follow that if they had a position of ultimate power they would execute nuns, priests and bishops, confiscate all church assets and destroy all christian places of worship ?
That is the level of speculation you are supporting here.
It is pure fantasy, groundless, anti-german speculation based on an extrapolation from data which is percieved in a deeply flawed manner.
You are basing ALL of this on two things, one the erosion of certain church powers and influence during the Third Reich period. Secondly the flawed presumption that if the NS regime suppress opposition, and that opposition happens to be in the clergy then this therefore is part of a systematic programme of suppression of christianity based on religious grounds.
The first point about erosion of influence is accepted. The second point about persecution of christianity on religious grounds is not accepted. To extrapolate that to it's ultimate conclusion of Soviet persecution levels is mindbogglingly lazy, deeply biased, crystal ball nonsense.0 -
Get a grip Morlar- For your final assertion quoted it would have to acceptable that the Labour and Fine Gael government are the equivalent of the Nazi party. I don't think that even Micheal Martin would be that naive. If you think that such a likelihood is so impossible then you need to get your junior cert history books out again!The Labour Party and Fine gael have undeniably eroded some powers of the Christian church in Ireland recent times.
Does that then follow that if they had a position of ultimate power they would execute nuns, priests and bishops, confiscate all church assets and destroy all christian places of worship ?
That is the level of speculation you are supporting here.
It is pure fantasy, groundless, anti-german speculation based on an extrapolation from data which is percieved in a deeply flawed manner.
Given that it is speculative issue I couldnt be bothered to push the point (as it cannot be proven) though so will leave it at that.
Finally, to label a speculative point on what the Nazi's may have done as being anti-German does not really warrant a response.0 -
First of all you assert the claim that had the Germans won the war they would then have persecuted the Christian faith in the manner of the bolsheviks (executing all priests, nuns, bishops, sieze all assets and destroy all christian places of worship).
As illustrated above you are without foundation in these assumptions. It's a false projection not based in reality but instead based on your own mis-understanding of the scale of actual events and the general context. I think it's fair to say that there is probably an element of your assertion which is not based in neutral objectivity.0 -
The foundation for that thought is based upon the history of the Nazi party. Thus it is not "without foundation", Your imagination is running away with itself!!!0
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jonniebgood1 wrote: »The foundation for that thought is based upon the history of the Nazi party. Thus it is not "without foundation", Your imagination is running away with itself!!!
No it is not.
It is based on your own milimetre deep, guido-knopp tv documentary style level of knowledge of the subject matter.
Some people are here to discuss history, others like you are here on some sort of ideological crusade to put down nazism or somesuch ill percieved nonsense.
Clear, open and honest and informed dialogue of history in an ideologically neutral manner is far preferable to your approach of regurgitating teenage blogs and skewed wiki nonsense and any random web link that 'backs up' whatever your ridiculous position of any given day is. Your claim here that the post war NS regime would have engaged in bolshevik style repression of the christian faith is lacking credibility or basis in reality. It is nonsense from off the top of a very empty head.0 -
I have a vague recollection of Hitler having entertained the concept of "The only faith that the people need have is faith in me." I shall look it up. Yes, I'm quite aware of the "Gott mit Uns" philosophy as well, I need to get back to you on this, but I don't think Johnnie's entirely off-base.
NTM0 -
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No it is not.
It is based on your own milimetre deep, guido-knopp tv documentary style level of knowledge of the subject matter.
Some people are here to discuss history, others like you are here on some sort of ideological crusade to put down nazism or somesuch ill percieved nonsense.
Clear, open and honest and informed dialogue of history in an ideologically neutral manner is far preferable to your approach of regurgitating teenage blogs and skewed wiki nonsense and any random web link that 'backs up' whatever your ridiculous position of any given day is. Your claim here that the post war NS regime would have engaged in bolshevik style repression of the christian faith is lacking credibility or basis in reality. It is nonsense from off the top of a very empty head.
Abusive ad hominem:
I won't respond directly to the above quoted abuse directly, namecalling and attacking the poster is not my thing.An ad hominem abusive (personal attack) is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims. http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Clear_Thinking/Informal_Fallacies/Ad_Hominem_Abusive/ad_hominem_abusive.html0 -
Manic Moran wrote: »I have a vague recollection of Hitler having entertained the concept of "The only faith that the people need have is faith in me." I shall look it up. Yes, I'm quite aware of the "Gott mit Uns" philosophy as well, I need to get back to you on this, but I don't think Johnnie's entirely off-base.
NTM
In this case it is important to clarify that bolshevik style repression involves executing priests, nuns, bishops on the basis of their faith, seizing all church assets, wealth, property, land, destroying christian places of worship, etc.
That quote does ring a bell. I think 20+ years of 3 hour speech writing will throw up all sorts of quotes.
In this case the one above does not, in my view, reinforce the speculation that in the event of a German victory in WW2 the N.S. regime would have engaged in Bolshevik level repression of christianity throughout Europe and Russia.0 -
ADOLF HITLER,adolf went to a catholic monastery school, he was also a choirboy ,when he was young he wanted to become a priest.hitler was also opposed to evangelical churches of pastors such as bonnoffer,but was able to manipulate the roman catholic church to support his policies as they were also opposed to greek orthodox and the protestant church,HITLER WROTE...i am personally convinced of the great power and deep significance of christianity,and i wont allow any other religion to be promoted,as for the jews,i am just carrying on with the same policy which the catholic church has adopted for fifteen hundred years,...so if hitler had invaded ireland most of you would have been OK,but the rest of us may well have been put into death camps0
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Manic Moran wrote: »I have a vague recollection of Hitler having entertained the concept of "The only faith that the people need have is faith in me." I shall look it up. Yes, I'm quite aware of the "Gott mit Uns" philosophy as well, I need to get back to you on this, but I don't think Johnnie's entirely off-base.
NTM
I also have a "vague recollection" of Hitler stating that a "functioning church is essential to a functioning society."
In my view, Hitler was not opposed to traditional christianity in any serious way. In 'Mein Kampf', he even praised Jesus Christ's opposition to Jews misuing the "temple of the Lord." and often uttered the line "...as a man and a christian" during speeches. Of course, public statements of politicians aren't always coincidental with their private beliefs. Even today, politicians invoke god as a means of positive reinforcement.
While his overall ideology wasn't based on christian beliefs, it is, however, impossible to conclude that Hitler harboured any real desires to destroy christianity post war as there is no solid evidence to back it up.
But, the reality is, that these days one an say anything they want about the Germans, Hitler or the nazis and odds on there will be a substantial seal of approval for it. One could posit that Hitler had secretly wanted to destroy all the puppies in the world and there would be plenty of people who would give pause for thought.0 -
Considering wiki uses a source that states 460 I would say the numbers are inconclusive. 700 or 460 . . . in 4 seperate camps over the course of 5 years. Potentially that is 22 per camp per year. Undoubtedly harsh conditions but not necessarily an extermination programme.
Remarkable, too, that it's such a low number considering the fact that the Allies had refused passage of food aid for the majority last year of the war. I wonder how many of those xxx (whatever the number is) died after June 1944.
Hmmm...context really is everything.0 -
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Ha ha.
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catholic hitler ?, when slovakia became a nazi puppet state it was led by a catholic priest jozef tiso,during this period approximately 70,000 slovak jews were sent to concentration camps to perish in the holocaust. archbishop alojzije boldly proclaimed,god who directs the destiny of nations and controls the hearts of kings, has given us ante pavelic,and moved the hearts of a friendy and allied people, adolph hitler,to use his victorious troops to disperse our oppressors and enable us to create a independent state of croatia,glory be to god and our gratitude to adolf hitler and infinite loyality to chief ante pavelic,palelic was named the archbishop supreme military apostolic vicar of the ustashi army,at the end of the war the archbishop was sentenced to 16 years as a war criminal,the pope was so outraged,he ordered the excommunication of anyone who participated in the trial,after his release in 1951,he returned to the vatican and was rewarded with a cardinalship,and in 1998 ,pope john paul announced the beatification of the war criminal [,the first step to sainthood]
More info here from wiki. (I know) but this one did strike a chord with me so I did a little more work on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac#Death_and_legacy_controversies
http://philologos.org/bpr/files/Vatican/vs001a.htm
The general reaction to the trial gives the following summary:Support also came from the American Jewish Committee, who put out a declaration that On October 13, 1946, The New York Times wrote that,
The trial of Archbishop Stepinac was a purely political one with the outcome determined in advance. The trial and sentence of this Croatian prelate are in contradiction with the Yugoslavia's pledge that it will respect human rights and the fundamental liberties of all without reference to race, sex, language and creed. Archbishop Stepinac was sentenced and will be incarcerated as part of the campaign against his church, guilty only of being the enemy of Communism.[72]
The National Conference of Christians and Jews at the Bronx Round Table adopted a unanimous resolution on October 13 condemning the trial:
This great churchman has been charged with being a collaborator with the Nazis. We Jews deny that. We know from his record since 1934, that he was a true friend of the Jews...This man, now the victim of a sham trial, all during the Nazi regime spoke out openly, unafraid, against the dreadful Nuremberg Laws, and his opposition to the Nazi terrorism was never relaxed.[68]
In Britain, on 23 October 1946, Mr Richard Stokes MP declared in the House of Commons that,
[T]he archbishop was our constant ally in 1941, during the worst of the crisis, and thereafter, at a time when the Orthodox Church, which is now comme il faut with the Tito Government, was shaking hands with Mussolini....[73]
On November 1, 1946 Winston Churchill addressed the House of Commons on the subject of the trial, expressing "great sadness" at the result.[74]
This trial was prepared in the political sphere. It was for the purpose of dividing the Catholic Church in Croatia from its leadership at the Vatican. Tito has openly expressed this purpose....The trial was not based on justice, but was an outrage on justice. Tito's regime has no interest in justice. It seeks only to stifle opposition....[68]
[Stepinac] was one of the very rare men in Europe who raised his voice against the Nazis' tyranny at a time when it was very difficult and dangerous for him to do so.
That said much controversy remains about his wartime activities.
Any recommend any further reading on this aspect of the war?0 -
dr.bollocko wrote: »That said much controversy remains about his wartime activities.
Any recommend any further reading on this aspect of the war?
It is an interesting subject which had a knock on impact in terms of public opinion for years after including in Ireland. It had an indirect influence on the Archbishop McQuaid urging patrons to stay away from an Ireland v Yugoslavia soccer match in the 1950's which was mentioned on the History forum recently ( http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056325243 post 3).
There is some back ground info in relation to Stepanic from when his name came up in 2000 for recognition by the church http://www.archipelago.org/vol5-1/agee2.htm0 -
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dr.bollocko wrote: »That said much controversy remains about his wartime activities. Any recommend any further reading on this aspect of the war?
A few I found here, with the help of a recommendation from a Croatian friend.
Genocide in satellite Croatia, 1941-1945: A record of racial and religious persecutions and massacres
Kaputt - 1944
Unholy Trinity: The Vatican, The Nazis, and The Swiss Banks
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