BJJ - Just rolling around on the ground?

bigdogbarking

Hi all,
Before you all decide to launch an all out assault,please excuse my ignorance. I just have a question regarding bjj. I've practised several martial arts over the last 12 years or so (aikido,hosin hapkido, muay thai and western boxing) but the club i'm training in are gonna introduce bjj over the next few weeks and i'm very curious and very eager to try,it would certainly help my groundwork as i have little experience on my back on the mat itself and its an area which could be improved even if not used in a ring,may be just handy for self defence "on the street" if that makes sense.


From watching youtube videos of bjj fights it seems to be more akin to submissive wrestling than any of the striking arts (now i'm completely ignorant with regards to the sport so i am probably wrong) but are there any strikes or are matches just won by submissions or ippons? I suppose sweeps could be construed as a strike and maybe a knee on the chest could come down with force?
Or is there a line that without strikes makes the difference between that and an MMA bout?

Could anyone with experience in mma or bjj or both even shed some light.
Cheers
BDB

EnjoyChoke

I don't understand what your asking.

Tim_Murphy

There are no strikes (or ippons) in BJJ.

bigdogbarking

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

I don't understand what your asking.

Sorry for the confusion, Basically I'm asking are their any strikes used? Tim_Murphy answered. Cheers

Does the use of a strike though result in disqualification or just point deduction? Is it frowned upon/considered cheating?

Clive

Immediate disqualification in any tournament and immediate expulsion from any club in my experience. BJJ is a pure grappling sport - although it is linked to MMA the two are distinct.

Tim_Murphy

bigdogbarking wrote: »

Sorry for the confusion, Basically I'm asking are their any strikes used? Tim_Murphy answered. Cheers

Does the use of a strike though result in disqualification or just point deduction? Is it frowned upon/considered cheating?

There are no strikes allowed in BJJ competition so ya, I'd imagine that it would be frowned upon alright.

Mark Hamill

bigdogbarking wrote: »

Sorry for the confusion, Basically I'm asking are their any strikes used? Tim_Murphy answered. Cheers

Does the use of a strike though result in disqualification or just point deduction? Is it frowned upon/considered cheating?

There are no strikes in BJJ, just like there are no strikes in Judo or wrestling. It is against the rules in the same way an ippon is agianst the rules in boxing. If you want to have striking in your BJJ class, you need to find an mma class, as mma incorporates striking, wrestling and submissions into one system.

Mark Hamill

bigdogbarking wrote: »

I suppose sweeps could be construed as a strike

Sweeps can be done with explosiveness, but they wouldn't be consisdered strikes.

bigdogbarking wrote: »

and maybe a knee on the chest could come down with force?

If you apply force with your knee to someones chest (while you are on top of them, for instance) before you make contact, that would be a strike and that would get you disqualified. However if you make contact between your knee and someones chest and then apply force (basically push as hard you can while kneeling on them), there is no strike so thats allowed.

Doug Cartel

Submissive wrestling - sounds kinky.

BJJ is almost entirely ground fighting. The amount of stand up grappling they teach varies from place to place, but it doesn't usually go beyond the basics of how to do a single and double leg takedown. I've only done a small bit of BJJ, and the place I trained had reasonably good stand-up instruction, but it was considered a separate class to the BJJ. A common theme you'll find in BJJ is that they like to concentrate on doing the ground fighting thing well, and expect you to cross-train in striking/wresteling if you want to learn the other phases of combat.

There' no striking allowed in BJJ competition. I'm not sure what exactly would happen if you gave somebody a deliberate box in a match, but you're looking at at least being disqualified - possibly being banned from competing for the rest of the day.

(EDIT looks like I've repeated a load of stuff. That's what I get for hitting "reply", starting something else, and then not checking back before I hit "post".)

bigdogbarking

Cheers guys, thats that sorted! Thanks

cowzerp

bigdogbarking wrote: »

Does the use of a strike though result in disqualification or just point deduction? Is it frowned upon/considered cheating?

Thats like asking is it a deduction or disqualification in Boxing if you kick your opponent!

BJJ and Sub wrestling are pretty much the same thing apart from the gear you wear.

biffo34

I think people are getting mixed up with newer forms of BJJ and older forms.
I had the pleasure of having a seminar or two with Royce Gracie.
My background being in striking arts and then settling on Ju-Jutsu, I was intrigued in the same manner.

Mr. Gracies opinion on the very same question was that strikes do exist in BJJ, as to leave them out would leave one in danger of being hit on the way in.

His teachings tend to deal with the close grips down to the ground, and he reckons he doesn't reall need to hit on the ground, that technique will see him through, and having experienced this i can see why he has formed that opinion.

As thought by instructors like him and other notables in this country it truly is an extremely masterful ground fighting system, but I personally dont get the buzz. As I have stated in previous posts professional experience has led me to believe that the ground is the LAST place to go in real life, so I train to finish things beforehand.

By all means give it a go...and enjoy your training.
Best wishes,
Darren Hand

EnjoyChoke

biffo34 wrote: »

I think people are getting mixed up with newer forms of BJJ and older forms.
I had the pleasure of having a seminar or two with Royce Gracie.
My background being in striking arts and then settling on Ju-Jutsu, I was intrigued in the same manner.

Mr. Gracies opinion on the very same question was that strikes do exist in BJJ, as to leave them out would leave one in danger of being hit on the way in.

His teachings tend to deal with the close grips down to the ground, and he reckons he doesn't reall need to hit on the ground, that technique will see him through, and having experienced this i can see why he has formed that opinion.

As thought by instructors like him and other notables in this country it truly is an extremely masterful ground fighting system, but I personally dont get the buzz. As I have stated in previous posts professional experience has led me to believe that the ground is the LAST place to go in real life, so I train to finish things beforehand.

By all means give it a go...and enjoy your training.
Best wishes,
Darren Hand

With respect Darren, you really sound like you don't have a clue when it comes to BJJ.

MarkFairman

Hey Bigdog!

No offense, but by your own admission in your post, you are completely unaware of what is involved in BJJ. You have world on information at your fingertips, just google it and read a little about it and most of your questions will be answered. If there are certain points you dont understand, or want to ask training questions etc then post here and ask educated questions to people who train it

You will probably recieve better and more complete answers.

suey71

I totally understand where your coming from OP when you say that BJJ looks like rolling around on the ground. I used to think that, until I took a few classes. Your strikes go out the window when are slammed to the ground and the wind is taken from you. Every punch you throw is another opportunity for the BJJ guy to wrap you up in a little parcel, and at the very least submit you, and at worst choke you out or break the arm or leg that you've just given him to play with.

I've always done striking arts, but its a very quick shock to the system when you train with a BJJ guy, even one with only a couple of weeks training.

arybvtcw0eolkf

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

With respect Darren, you really sound like you don't have a clue when it comes to BJJ.

Why not enlighten him instead of shooting off an unhelpful one liner eh?.

Ug Lee

biffo34 wrote: »

Mr. Gracies opinion on the very same question was that strikes do exist in BJJ, as to leave them out would leave one in danger of being hit on the way in.
Darren Hand

There seem to be a few different approaches to BJJ. Looking at the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu challange matchess in youtube, you will see the Gracies striking their opponent. The key variable with them seems to be how the fight is determined. While they might use strikes, the strikes will not determine how the fight is won as it would with other striking arts. Instead these strikes are there to soften/open up the opponent but the submission will determine how the fight is won.

For example, the Gracies will when in the mount position, strike their opponent in the face to get their opponent to raise their hands to cover their face. This will allow the person on top to apply a kimura or armbar which might be more difficult in the absence of strikes.

However this is absent from BJJ competitions and for BJJ organisations that focus on BJJ competitions.

cowzerp

Ug Lee wrote: »

There seem to be a few different approaches to BJJ. Looking at the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu challange matchess in youtube, you will see the Gracies striking their opponent..

This was basically MMA matches with BJJ been there main weapon not bjj matches, when that failed they used strikes to open up submissions, BJJ does not use striking in actual BJJ, that's not to say in an MMA scenario BJJ lads will not use other tools.

Ug Lee

cowzerp wrote: »

This was basically MMA matches with BJJ been there main weapon not bjj matches, when that failed they used strikes to open up submissions, BJJ does not use striking in actual BJJ, that's not to say in an MMA scenario BJJ lads will not use other tools.

Sometimes I think the lines between BJJ and MMA are blurred and what one person will call "actual BJJ" is different from others and is related to the competition BJJ/self defence GJJ argument.

However it seems that Helio's and his son's approach is to strike your opponent to open them up if needed and then finish them off with a submission. I don't think that when they are striking their opponent they are not doing "actual/pure" BJJ if there is any such thing.

However I admit that I could be wrong but I think we can agree that in challange matches/self defence situations, some BJJ people will use strikes. The questions of whether these strikes are part of BJJ is open to question.

cowzerp

Ug Lee wrote: »

Sometimes I think the lines between BJJ and MMA are blurred and what one person will call "actual BJJ" is different from others and is related to the competition BJJ/self defence GJJ argument.

However it seems that Helio's and his son's approach is to strike your opponent to open them up if needed and then finish them off with a submission. I don't think that when they are striking their opponent they are not doing "actual/pure" BJJ if there is any such thing.

However I admit that I could be wrong but I think we can agree that in challange matches/self defence situations, some BJJ people will use strikes. The questions of whether these strikes are part of BJJ is open to question.

The strikes are not part of BJJ, The lines between MMA and BJJ are people who dont realise there 2 different sports completly and assume bjj is MMA wrongly-just because a gracie throws a few strikes does not make it part of BJJ

Doug Cartel

The OP was asking what goes on in a BJJ class/tournament. If he goes to any one around here they're going to be teaching him how to get the subs without using punches, and there's no punching at all in competitions.

From that perspective, it's not helpful to start describing "old school" or whatever BJJ and how they did it in the Gracie Challenge.

Ug Lee

Doug Cartel wrote: »

The OP was asking what goes on in a BJJ class/tournament. If he goes to any one around here they're going to be teaching him how to get the subs without using punches, and there's no punching at all in competitions.

From that perspective, it's not helpful to start describing "old school" or whatever BJJ and how they did it in the Gracie Challenge.

Its not just "old school". Rorian Gracie and his sons will teach today that when in the mount position, use strikes to open the opponent up so that you can apply a kimura. There are other examples, I am only quoting one here.

I am actually trying to be helpful.

Doug Cartel

Ug Lee wrote: »

Its not just "old school". Rorian Gracie and his sons will teach today that when in the mount position, use strikes to open the opponent up so that you can apply a kimura. There are other examples, I am only quoting one here. I am actually trying to be helpful.

But would many people around here teach that? (In a BJJ class, not an MMA one.)

Ug Lee

Doug Cartel wrote: »

But would many people around here teach that? (In a BJJ class, not an MMA one.)

Probably not but thats not the point. He asked if there are any strikes in BJJ. I answered it depends on where you go. You have to admit the question was a bit vague and he admitted he knows nothing about BJJ. I just tried to put his question and my answer into the wider context of what BJJ is.

[/QUOTE]

Chris89

Sport BJJ, as seen in competition (pan ams, worlds etc) is much different to the BJJ being referenced in this thread.

There are of course a number of positions that could be neutralised by a few boshes to the mush.

It depends what youre training for, if youre learning bjj for self defence, sure, you can learn how to effectively defend and utilise strikes on the ground, but if youre training to compete in BJJ, then there is no need to worry about your oponent striking you.

As for the thread title, sure, all it is is roilling around on the ground, the same way professinal boxing is just a little dance and a hug when you dont want to get hit.

r_obric

nice tasty can of worms opening here, i see a 20 page thread on bjj V Gjj

Chris89

r_obric wrote: »

nice tasty can of worms opening here, i see a 20 page thread on bjj V Gjj

Not really, its quite easy to differentiate between sport jiu jitsu and jiu jitsu for self defence/mma.

I train jiu jitsu as a sport, i dont see it as a martial art or a means of self defence. who cares about gjj v bjj, i suppose you lads have to argue about something though..

Barry.Oglesby

On a quick note I think anyone bigging up GJJ on this thread doesn't actually train in BJJ/GJJ.

EnjoyChoke

There is only one type of "BJJ". What works, works. What doesn't, well, doesn't. You can change the environment, Grappling, MMA, Self-defense etc. but the delivery system remains the same. People can throw the word "sport" around as if it's a bad thing or somehow detached from the real world, it isn't. All the elite BJJ players/fighters on the planet are "sports" based, Roger, Braulio, Garcia, Maia etc.
You just don't get this argument when it comes to other combat sports, "I box for the streets" or "My Judo is for the real world", pure head in the sand nonsense.

Chris89

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

There is only one type of "BJJ". What works, works. What doesn't, well, doesn't. You can change the environment, Grappling, MMA, Self-defense etc. but the delivery system remains the same. People can throw the word "sport" around as if it's a bad thing or somehow detached from the real world, it isn't. All the elite BJJ players/fighters on the planet are "sports" based, Roger, Braulio, Garcia, Maia etc.
You just don't get this argument when it comes to other combat sports, "I box for the streets" or "My Judo is for the real world", pure head in the sand nonsense.

Not sure if this was aimed at me, I obviously agree with you I was just trying to differentiate between the teaching methods or whatever between gjj and bjj.

Ug Lee

Chris89 wrote: »

Not sure if this was aimed at me, I obviously agree with you I was just trying to differentiate between the teaching methods or whatever between gjj and bjj.

Thats all I was trying to do as well. The other comments from people is like when the missus is trying to provoke an argument at home. There is nothing to argue about but it doesn't stop her trying.

colinlaird000

Taken from the IBJJF rules - Article 5 - Fighting conclusions

2)-DISQUALIFICATION

SERIOUS FOULS:
1)SERIOUS FOULS ARE THOSE THAT LEAD TO IMMEDIATE
DISQUALIFICATION BY THE REFEREE.
A-) the use of foul language, cursing, or other immoral acts of
disrespect towards the referee or any of the assisting public.
B-) biting, hair pulling, putting fingers into the eyes or nose of one’s
opponent, intentionally seeking to injure genitalia or the use of fists,

feet, knees, elbows, or heads with the intention to hurt or gain unfair
advantage.

That'll be the BJJ rules in international competition. Fairly definitive I'd say. Hitting people is illegal in competitive BJJ.

OLDMAN1

are you not aload use you head in bjj, im not talking about headbutting im talking about pushing the head in to some ones face, please dont attack, im only asking...

Ug Lee

colinlaird000 wrote: »

Hitting people is illegal in competitive BJJ.[/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

And in non competitive BJJ, a BJJ person is allowed and "taught" how to kick, elbow, etc, although it is a very small part of the syllabus.

EnjoyChoke

No such thing as "non competitive BJJ".

youllneverknow

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

are you not aload use you head in bjj, im not talking about headbutting im talking about pushing the head in to some ones face, please dont attack, im only asking...

yes you can this causes pressure not hitting them

Ug Lee

:)

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

No such thing as "non competitive BJJ".

Now we are into semantics but it is great as I am pissed...:D:);):p:rolleyes::o:mad::(:eek::cool::P:confused::pac:

johnevolucathai

is there a site where i can get info of this years grappling and jiu jitsu shows events and comp's
thank you

dasmoose

www.bjj.ie

bigdogbarking

Hi guys, i thought i'd resurrect this thread rather than start a new one, I've completed a few classes of bjj now and all i can say is that its far from just rolling on the ground! so far, it has far exceeded my expectations. A completely new concept to fighting for me. where i was once concerned about strikes, i now think, who needs them? (well not as much now anyway)

Fantastic art, tough, technical, painful , but enjoyable. Hats off to everyone who trains in it. i think i've fallen in love lol

peteclarke

bigdogbarking wrote: »

Hi all,
Before you all decide to launch an all out assault,please excuse my ignorance. I just have a question regarding bjj. I've practised several martial arts over the last 12 years or so (aikido,hosin hapkido, muay thai and western boxing) but the club i'm training in are gonna introduce bjj over the next few weeks and i'm very curious and very eager to try,it would certainly help my groundwork as i have little experience on my back on the mat itself and its an area which could be improved even if not used in a ring,may be just handy for self defence "on the street" if that makes sense.


From watching youtube videos of bjj fights it seems to be more akin to submissive wrestling than any of the striking arts (now i'm completely ignorant with regards to the sport so i am probably wrong) but are there any strikes or are matches just won by submissions or ippons? I suppose sweeps could be construed as a strike and maybe a knee on the chest could come down with force?
Or is there a line that without strikes makes the difference between that and an MMA bout?

Could anyone with experience in mma or bjj or both even shed some light.
Cheers
BDB

only one way to find out. go into a bjj class and punch someone when youre rolling. i wonder what would happen

yomchi

What a stupid post. What an old thread.