Irish soldiers and saluting the queen

Vorsprung

When Mary McAleese has met the Queen in the UK, has she been saluted by members of the British Armed Forces or Police? I mean, would be interesting given the number of British agents who were killed by forces acting in the name of Ireland over the past 100 years.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

The good old red herring - Divert attention away from the fact that Derek Wilford still to this very day is regarded as a hero by the British Establishment. A man who is responsible for the deaths of 14 civilians, still holds an OBE.

And whatever excuse they had for it to remain with him after the Widgery Report - there can be no mistake about it, they have no excuse now.

No, it's a comparison. The only red herring around here is you claiming Wilford was given an OBE for killing 14 people.

dekbhoy wrote: »

Not sure the netherlands and spain caused misery, hurt, hatred of untold proportions on this country .She on the other hand did , therefore should not be welcomed by the masses

Did she? got any examples of that?

dlofnep

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Red herring indeed, perhaps you forget that its the IRA that have caused more death and injury in the north and the republic than the british state.

Incorrect.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

If as you argue the Queen has blood on her hands (she dosen't but lets just play along with your argument for a while), then Gerry and Martin are covered in buckets of blood from the thousands killed and injured by their IRA comrades. If we were to follow your line of thought then theres no way that those two should be allowed into the state let alone meet the head of state.

They are both Irish citizens. If you wish to discuss Martin McGuiness or Gerry Adams, you're always welcome to create a thread for it.

Moreover, I never stated that the Queen has blood on her hands. That would be silly. She is an old lady. I stated that she awarded Derek Wilford with an OBE, shortly after Bloody Sunday - where even the British Establishment knew what happened. Now in lieu of them finally admitting it, after the Saville Inquiry's findings - it seems perfectly valid to remove Wilford's OBE - even by OBE standards. If they can remove it from someone for tax evasion, then they can certainly remove it from someone who orchestrated the murder of 14 civilians.

Morpheus

Here is my own opinion from speaking to various people...

it seems that the majority of people have no problem with her coming here.

She is after all the head of state of one of our closest allies, neighbours and trade partners. I realise that this is a bitter pill to swallow for many republicans, but this is modern ireland, people are more concerned with the economy, mortgages, welfare etc. Any soldiers I have asked scoffed at the idea of refusing to salute.

WHOEVER it is, any head of state will always and should always recieve the same state welcome.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, it's a comparison. The only red herring around here is you claiming Wilford was given an OBE for killing 14 people.

Incorrect. I stated that despite his actions on Bloody Sunday, he was awarded an OBE. Not a red herring, and perfectly valid.

So now in lieu of the Saville Inquiry - What exactly is the problem with removing his OBE?

getz

dlofnep wrote: »

Incorrect. I stated that despite his actions on Bloody Sunday, he was awarded an OBE. Not a red herring, and perfectly valid.

So now in lieu of the Saville Inquiry - What exactly is the problem with removing his OBE?

i am surprised,i did not know the 14 people were irish citizens,i thought they were british,

dlofnep

getz wrote: »

i am surprised,i did not know the 14 people were irish citizens,i thought they were british,

They were Irish civilians. If you want to avoid the obvious elephant in the room (Derek Wilford's OBE), and waste hours discussing who is or who isn't Irish, you can do so at someone else's expense. Perhaps you might tell the people of Derry that they are not Irish.

getz

the queen cannot remove a OBE,any other honour presented, thats up to the goverment of the day,and i am sure you know that, on ireland there are 1.75 million people living in the north,400,000 have irish passports many ,of them also hold a british passport ,there is aproximately 100,000 living in derry/londonderry [you can have any of those names on your irish passport.]if they are all irish citizens that doesent leave many living in the other parts of the north,

cyrusdvirus

i wasn't going to get involved cos there is an large amount of total rubbish being posted here.

When Charlie Haughey died there was debate as to whether or not he should have recieved a state funeral, which he did.

The reason he recieved a state funeral is that he was entitled to it. He may not have deserved it, but he was entitled to it.

Her Majesty, the Queen, as a head of state, is entitled to full compliments when she visits these shores.

Some of you (dfnlop or whatever your name is, i care so little that i couldn't be arsed going back to find it out) may feel that she doesn't deserve it, fair enough. SHE IS BLOODY WELL ENTITLED TO IT, END OF STORY

getz

all 14 shot dead on bloody sunday were UK citizens and did not have irishs passports ,

iceage

8 pages.....:rolleyes:

cushtac

Vorsprung wrote: »

When Mary McAleese has met the Queen in the UK, has she been saluted by members of the British Armed Forces or Police? I mean, would be interesting given the number of British agents who were killed by forces acting in the name of Ireland over the past 100 years.

Both Robinson and McAleese have been rendered honours by the British armed forces on official visits.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

Incorrect. I stated that despite his actions on Bloody Sunday, he was awarded an OBE. Not a red herring, and perfectly valid.

So now in lieu of the Saville Inquiry - What exactly is the problem with removing his OBE?

dlofnep wrote: »

What other heads of state have awarded their citizens with an honour for killing Irish civilians? Tell me exactly what makes her on par with other heads of state.

I appreciate that being an Uber Republican/Irish Patriot/Master race type, English probably isn't your first manguage, however, you clearly stated (in this thrad and in others) that Derek Wilford was given an OBE for killing Irish citizens.

That is not the case and is what I would put under the category "Typical Irish Republican Spin on actual events".

dlofnep

getz wrote: »

all 14 shot dead on bloody sunday were UK citizens and did not have irishs passports ,

Many had no passports, as some were only 17. It's irrelevant as to what passport they held. They were Irish. You are sidetracking. Anyone born on the island of Ireland is perfectly entitled to be viewed as Irish. All of those killed were Irish nationalists.

So ultimately, who gives a shít what passport they had or didn't have? The fact remains - Derek Wilford, OBE is responsible for their deaths.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I appreciate that being an Uber Republican/Irish Patriot/Master race type, English probably isn't your first manguage, however, you clearly stated (in this thrad and in others) that Derek Wilford was given an OBE for killing Irish citizens.

In this "thrad"? And you attack my command of the English language? :rolleyes:

Moreover - I'll expect an apology for that "master race" bollocks. I'm a humanist.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That is not the case and is what I would put under the category "Typical Irish Republican Spin on actual events".

I'm about as interested in your views, as you are mine.

cyrusdvirus

dlofnep wrote: »

In this "thrad"? And you attack my command of the English language? :rolleyes:



I'm about as interested in your views, as you are mine.

The grammar and spelling police..... the last resort of a desperate poster

dlofnep

gatecrash wrote: »

The grammar and spelling police..... the last resort of a desperate poster

Not really, considering it was in response to someone who attacked my command of the English language while in the same sentence called it a "manguage". Interesting that you didn't quote the original post that I was responding to. You get 10 marks for cherry-picking posts.

I've made my point perfectly clear. Derek Wilford's OBE is unjust, and should be removed.

cyrusdvirus

You made your point....over.....and over........... and over......... and over........ until it lost whatever validity it had

And yet you still can't see that quite a few posters here are ignoring you constant and consistent attempts to derail the thread and take it off topic.

You just keep on harping on about Derek Wilford and his OBE and how wrong it is and that its not rigzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz





Sorry, nodded off there, cos i'm that bored of hearing you prattle on about Derezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....................................

oglaigh

dlofnep wrote: »

Many had no passports, as some were only 17. It's irrelevant as to what passport they held. They were Irish. You are sidetracking. Anyone born on the island of Ireland is perfectly entitled to be viewed as Irish. All of those killed were Irish nationalists.
.

Doesnt change the fact that they were British Citizens

getz

dlofnep wrote: »

Not really, considering it was in response to someone who attacked my command of the English language while in the same sentence called it a "manguage". Interesting that you didn't quote the original post that I was responding to. You get 10 marks for cherry-picking posts.

I've made my point perfectly clear. Derek Wilford's OBE is unjust, and should be removed.

strange isent it,scores of people were shot and killed by troops in the late 50s and 60s in the USA,during the civil right walks,yet the irish people loved and honoured a visit by americian president,the difference is ?

dlofnep

gatecrash wrote: »

You made your point....over.....and over........... and over......... and over........ until it lost whatever validity it had

Curious that. I made my point, but yet you were more than happy to keep it fresh by throwing in a red herring on every page.

My point is as valid now, as it was the first time I posted it. You can continue your ad-hominem, red-herring dribble - but it doesn't negate any of my points. Your posts lack any substance whatsoever, which is why you spent most of your posts trying to haggle the identity of those murdered - (And rest assured, those and their families always have and always will identify as being Irish, regards of what you say.), rather than discuss the elephant in the room.

The problem here is that you are afraid that someone might actually be able to conjure up a reasonable and valid point for opposing a visit of the Queen - and instead of debating the merits of their argument - you've all resorted to attacking the poster's character (RE: 'Master Race') or belittling the relevance of awarding an honour to someone who is responsible for the deaths of Irish civilians - Someone who still holds that honour to this day - despite the Saville Inquiry's findings.

I'll let you guys get back to nodding and winking at each other, waiting to attack the character and derail the argument with red herrings of the next person who proposes an alternative view.

Good day.

cyrusdvirus

dlofnep wrote: »

Curious that. I made my point, but yet you were more than happy to keep it fresh by throwing in a red herring on every page.

My point is as valid now, as it was the first time I posted it. You can continue your ad-hominem, red-herring dribble - but it doesn't negate any of my points. Your posts lack any substance whatsoever, which is why you spent most of your posts trying to haggle the identity of those murdered - And rest assured, those and their families always have and always will identify as being Irish, regards of what you say.

The problem here is that you are afraid that someone might actually be able to conjure up a reasonable and valid point for opposing a visit of the Queen, and instead attack the poster's character (RE: 'Master Race') or belittle the relevance of awarding an honour to someone who is responsible for the deaths of Irish civilians, and still holds that honour to this day - despite the Saville Inquiry's findings.

I'll let you guys get back to nodding and winking at each other, waiting to attack the character and derail their argument with red herrings of the next person who proposes an alternative view.

Good day.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out........

Oh, By the way, my first post on this thread was at 11:22 this morning.
Nice attention to detail there dude.

Chimichangas

iceage wrote: »

8 pages.....:rolleyes:

and still as repetitive as pages 1-2...

dlofnep

gatecrash wrote: »

Oh, By the way, my first post on this thread was at 11:22 this morning.
Nice attention to detail there dude.

I confused you and Getz. Apologies. My other points remain.

Wicklowrider

Reg'stoy wrote: »

Can I start firstly by thanking you by staying on point, but I must question your assertion that she has no power. Anyway that has nothing to do with my substantive question which is, should Irish soldiers have an opinion on whether or not they can refuse to pay compliments as a previous poster so eloquently put it; to the queen.

This question is much more complex than as to simply say, they must follow orders like a good automaton. But it must also not be allowed to become the poster child for one side when some soldier does put his head above the parapet and ask the question.

So again I would ask should she expect salutes or would she be so closeted as to not understand the significance of an Irish soldier paying compliments to an English monarch on Irish soil and bearing in mind this, might an Irish man or woman who happens to be in the army ask to not be involved.

Pardon my ignorance here but do Gardai salute or is it just soldiers.

I'm baffled!
You are asking the same question , it has been comprehensively answered by several soldiers and people who are qualified to answer it but you aren't accepting the answers?
Do you accept that it isn't up to the army whether the visit goes ahead or not?
Do you seriously think that should the head of a foreign state arrive that our defense forces would openly insult them?
People who don't think she should be saluted need to lobby for her not to visit. They are perfectly entitled to their opinion but they need to stop the visit - not bring her over and then give two fingers to Britain!

IRLConor

dlofnep wrote: »

troubleshooter wrote: »

You stated the Queen gave an OBE in honour of an op that killed 14 civilans, thats totally untrue.

It is 100% factual, I'm afraid.

It's actually not. But, don't take my word for it, here's the quote from the London Gazette, 3rd October 1972:

ARMY DEPARTMENT
CENTRAL CHANCERY OF THE ORDERS OF KNIGHTHOOD
St James's Palace, London S.W.1.
3rd October 1972

The Queen has been graciously pleased to give orders for the following appointments to the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, in recognition of distinguished services in Northern Ireland during the period 1st February 1972 to 30th April 1972,
To be Additional Officers of the Military Division of the said Most Excellent Order:
Lieutenant-Colonel Kenneth DODSON (393120), The Queen's Regiment.
Lieutenant-Colonel Roy Lindsay JACKSON (403501), The Royal Anglian Regiment.
Lieutenant-Colonel (Acting) Brian William Reginald PEARSON (390237), Royal Regiment of Artillery.
Lieutenant-Colonel Derek WILFORD (427792), The Parachute Regiment.

(date emphasis mine)

Now, as a Republican, you do know the date of Bloody Sunday, right? Is it inside or outside the time window specified?

Poccington

gatecrash wrote: »

You made your point....over.....and over........... and over......... and over........ until it lost whatever validity it had

And yet you still can't see that quite a few posters here are ignoring you constant and consistent attempts to derail the thread and take it off topic.

You just keep on harping on about Derek Wilford and his OBE and how wrong it is and that its not rigzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz





Sorry, nodded off there, cos i'm that bored of hearing you prattle on about Derezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....................................

If you're not going to post anything even slightly interesting or likely to spark a conversation, well then avoid posting.

Poccington

Lads, can we cool the jets a little bit? There's nothing wrong with having a discussion on a topic which will obviously have people with different viewpoints but let's try keep it civil.

Thanks.

Chimichangas

dlofnep wrote: »

Curious that. I made my point, but yet you were more than happy to keep it fresh by throwing in a red herring on every page.
...

...

My point is as valid now, as it was the first time I posted it.

dlofnep wrote: »

I confused you and Getz. Apologies. My other points remain.

Yes you did make your point, just one point mind you. I have learned from it too, so I thank you for that.
I didnt learn anything from it being repeated however, nor did I notice any other valid points you claimed to have made.

While I might have thought before hand that yes a head of state should at least be afforded the respect of officialdom, you may have convinced me by your method of 'arguing/debating' to go out and welcome this head of state too...i am not thrilled!

R.Dub.Fusilier

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I appreciate that being an Uber Republican/Irish Patriot/Master race type, English probably isn't your first manguage, however, you clearly stated (in this thrad and in others) that Derek Wilford was given an OBE for killing Irish citizens.

That is not the case and is what I would put under the category "Typical Irish Republican Spin on actual events".

i am not a republican as such but i think if anyone here is acting like the "master race " its you. you seem to think that the british/english governments and past monarchy never did any wrong to ireland or the irish race as a whole and have nothing to answer for. unless you forgot about the 800 years before the good friday agreement.

the 14 who were killed on bloody sunday were irish and if they are british as some claim then it was 14 brits killed by their own forces which would be worse , in regard to brits killing brits.

Fratton Fred

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

i am not a republican as such but i think if anyone here is acting like the "master race " its you. you seem to think that the british/english governments and past monarchy never did any wrong to ireland or the irish race as a whole and have nothing to answer for. unless you forgot about the 800 years before the good friday agreement.

the 14 who were killed on bloody sunday were irish and if they are british as some claim then it was 14 brits killed by their own forces which would be worse , in regard to brits killing brits.

I don't think that at all, but blame should be directed at the right people. QE2 has done absolutely no harm whatsoever to the Irish and it annoys me no end the amount of.be, lies and half truths directed at her.

Ultimately, what happened.was some thugs from.the IRA murdered Lord Mountbatten, his wife and an innocent teenager in cold.blood. this rightly caused the **** to hit the fan and to try and recover.from.this pr nightmare, quickly decided the murder.was the Queen's fault for awarding an OBE.

Personally I.think.Wilford's OBE should be retracted, but that is up to the government.

I use the term master race, because everyone who disagrees with SF dogma quickly gets dismissed as a west brit traitor.

R.Dub.Fusilier

i dont realy care about the OBE. i think the british queen will most probably come to ireland , there will be protests, and she will be afforded all the pomp that goes with her title and position. but it seems that if posters here dare to raise their heads and show any republican leaning they are attacked from all sides. and it seems to me that dlofnep is being attacked for his opinion on the OBE, which may or may not be right, i dont know myself.

by the way fred no offence was intended.

in regard to saluting the queen, a relative of mine ,who is Irish,was in the Royal Irish Fusiliers in the 1960s and was serving in africa and had to parade for qe2s birthday and he was not too happy about , nor were some of the others in the RIF but had to do it , dont know if the voiced their opinions on it or not.

dekbhoy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, it's a comparison. The only red herring around here is you claiming Wilford was given an OBE for killing 14 people.



Did she? got any examples of that?

Derry 1972 , dublin monaghan 1974 (possibly) , lee clegg and hundreds of others that have still to come to public knowledge .........

dlofnep

IRLConor wrote: »

It's actually not. But, don't take my word for it, here's the quote from the London Gazette, 3rd October 1972:

Now, as a Republican, you do know the date of Bloody Sunday, right? Is it inside or outside the time window specified?

The actions were 2 days prior to the time-specified, but the subsequent inquiry - in which false information was given falls perfectly fine into those dates.

Irrespective of the timeline, the facts remain - Derek Wilford still holds an OBE in lieu of the Saville Inquiry's findings. Do you disagree that he should be removed of such an honour?

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Personally I.think.Wilford's OBE should be retracted, but that is up to the government.

So if you agree that his title should be removed, then what exactly do you find objectionable to requesting that his title be removed prior to a Queen's visit as a gesture of good will?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I use the term master race, because everyone who disagrees with SF dogma quickly gets dismissed as a west brit traitor.

Your use of the term "master race" implies a white nationalist, nazi mindset. I'm none of the above, nor am I intolerant to differing opinions. If I was - then surely I wouldn't have posted this, now would I? I see it's beyond you to apologise for such callous comment. You're placed on ignore for future discussions, as I have no time for anyone who stoops to that level.

The only intolerance that has existed in this thread, is towards anyone who offered an alternative opinion on the visit. You have some audacity to accuse anyone of being intolerant, or attacking their character.

moonboy52

As has been stated before:

1. The queen is the head of state of our nearest neighbour and therefore must get the same respect as any other head of state.

2. Any member of any force who does not give said respect must be released from employment.

3. Anyone who thinks that rioting during the visit is ok in their little warped patriotic minds, is doing the country a great disservice and should be prosecuted with no leniency.

4. Time to look to the future instead of living in the past!

dlofnep

Anyone who protests such a visit should be prosecuted. And we're accused of being intolerant?

Nevermind, I see you've edited your post to remove the prosecution of protesters comment. A wise decision.

moonboy52

dlofnep wrote: »

Anyone who protests such a visit should be prosecuted. And we're accused of being intolerant?

The rule of law as opposed to the rule of the thug.

dlofnep

moonboy52 wrote: »

The rule of law as opposed to the rule of the thug.

I'm sorry, but what law exists that states people do not have the right to protest in public? Also, what has thug got to do with anything? A person can protest without being a thug.

moonboy52

Standing still / silent protest while holding a placard is fine.

Any other form of "protest" must be handled accordingly.

dlofnep

moonboy52 wrote: »

Standing still / silent protest while holding a placard is fine.

Any other form of "protest" must be handled accordingly.

I'm sorry, but you quite clearly differentiated between the two in your original post before editing it - you stated protesting or rioting.

Now while I agree with you that anyone rioting (ala the love ulster march) should be handled accordingly - people have a right the protest and be vocal if they so choose. This is not a police state that we live in, and everyone is entitled to peacefully protest any such visit.

moonboy52

I changed my comment before you commented.

We are in agreement then. Any form of violence or rioting is not ok.

dlofnep

moonboy52 wrote: »

I changed my comment before you commented.

I had started my response prior to you editing, only when I submitted my post did I see the edited version.

moonboy52 wrote: »

We are in agreement then. Any form of violence or rioting is not ok.

We are.

moonboy52

ok then

IRLConor

dlofnep wrote: »

The actions were 2 days prior to the time-specified, but the subsequent inquiry - in which false information was given falls perfectly fine into those dates.

Still, he wasn't given the OBE for Bloody Sunday.

dlofnep wrote: »

Irrespective of the timeline, the facts remain - Derek Wilford still holds an OBE in lieu of the Saville Inquiry's findings. Do you disagree that he should be removed of such an honour?

Frankly, I don't give a toss, since I don't put much value on OBEs. Do you? I would have thought that a republican would not consider them to have any value.

xflyer

Amazed this thread continues in it's warped way. R.Dub.Fusilier

in regard to saluting the queen, a relative of mine ,who is Irish,was in the Royal Irish Fusiliers in the 1960s and was serving in africa and had to parade for qe2s birthday and he was not too happy about , nor were some of the others in the RIF but had to do it , dont know if the voiced their opinions on it or not.

I'm sorry what the f was he doing in the British army if he didn't like saluting the Queen? I'm totally confused, it's the British army for heaven sake. It goes with the job.

As for dlofnep and Wilford, what a massive red herring. Haven't you head fo the Bloody Sunday Inquiry.

In the real world away from the aburdity of internet debate. The Queen will be accorded all the courtesy of a visiting head of state of a friendly country. Our soldiers as ever will do us proud. The real soldiers not the nasty little criminals who disgraced us again and again.

I cannot understand why people insist on continuing the hatred particularly here in the south when most people in the north have moved on and chosen peace and reconciliation despite suffering the most because of it. Or perhaps because they actually suffered rather than the bar stool Republicans down here.

Stop the nonsensical sophistry.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

So if you agree that his title should be removed, then what exactly do you find objectionable to requesting that his title be removed prior to a Queen's visit as a gesture of good will?



Your use of the term "master race" implies a white nationalist, nazi mindset. I'm none of the above, nor am I intolerant to differing opinions. If I was - then surely I wouldn't have posted this, now would I? I see it's beyond you to apologise for such callous comment. You're placed on ignore for future discussions, as I have no time for anyone who stoops to that level.

The only intolerance that has existed in this thread, is towards anyone who offered an alternative opinion on the visit. You have some audacity to accuse anyone of being intolerant, or attacking their character.

Ok, on reflection the master race comment was out of order, so I should apologise for that. When you have a Sig like your's you effectively become the focal point for Irish Republicans on Boards, so the temptation is to tar you with the same brushes some of your less desirable peers. Apologies for doing that.

If the UK were on a par with Nazi Germany as implied, then it would not be afforded membership of the EU or the UN. The fact that it is and the fact that the UK is not only Ireland biggest trading partner but also a country with the largest Irish immigrant population and from where the largest number of visitors to Ireland hail from.

If you want to insult that country, then fine. But you have to accept that it is an insult and will be reacted to as such.

As for the poster that claims QE2 was responsible for bloodySunday, monaghan etc, what can I say other than Queenie must have been a busy girl to do all of that.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred - Thanks. I appreciate it. I sent you a message in response. I believe we're good.

dlofnep

IRLConor wrote: »

Frankly, I don't give a toss, since I don't put much value on OBEs. Do you? I would have thought that a republican would not consider them to have any value.

I don't, and I'm sure that you don't give a toss. But it's not what it means for me as an individual, it's what it symbolises - it honours someone for their work on behalf of Britain. I don't believe that it's above Britain to remove Derek Wilford's OBE. I think that in lieu of the Saville Inquiry - he should be stripped of such an honour. It would send a clear message to those who might be offended by honouring a man responsible for civilian death, that Britain will act mature and take responsibility for the actions of it's soldiers. It would also send a message to British soldiers, stating that nobody is above the law and that they are all accountable for their actions.

So when you tell me from s subjective viewpoint that you don't care - I believe you. But for other people - it is a problem, which could be easily rectified.

getz

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't, and I'm sure that you don't give a toss. But it's not what it means for me as an individual, it's what it symbolises - it honours someone for their work on behalf of Britain. I don't believe that it's above Britain to remove Derek Wilford's OBE. I think that in lieu of the Saville Inquiry - he should be stripped of such an honour. It would send a clear message to those who might be offended by honouring a man responsible for civilian death, that Britain will act mature and take responsibility for the actions of it's soldiers. It would also send a message to British soldiers, stating that nobody is above the law and that they are all accountable for their actions.

So when you tell me from s subjective viewpoint that you don't care - I believe you. But for other people - it is a problem, which could be easily rectified.

how quickly you have forgotten the history of ireland and the UK,just how far back do you want to go ?,should the goverment of republic apologize for the money it paid to the IRA to continue is bombing of civilians,you must move on,and not be a dinosaur