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Civil Partnership bill, can you explain something to me?

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    #302
    eightyfish
    Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭eightyfish


    prinz wrote: »
    Extra benefits, tax breaks etc. I believe it beneficial to our society that our government promotes a stable family unit and rewards couples that have kids in particular.

    Excellent idea. Supporting stable families, supporting birth parents and adoptive parents. Are you gonna add to that that the parents must not be gay?


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    #303
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    prinz wrote: »
    Homosexuals more prone to depression and mental illnesses. More prone to suicides. Lower life expectantcy.

    Much of that could be levelled at coloured people or young black men...also a marginalised minority prone to prejudice and spite - coincidence?
    prinz wrote: »
    More likely to end in 'divorce'/separation..

    Seriously? There are still people standing in the way of allowing gay partnerships, demanding it not be called marriage and you are citing higher divorce rates? Do you have any unbiased links for stats? I thought that was just a popular myth to perpetuate but it was actually the other way about, 20% divorce rates to 50% hetero or something like that.
    prinz wrote: »
    Throw kids into the mix and forgive me for thinking that everything might not be rosy into the future

    There are a whole heap of things that are most certainly not rosy in terms of ideal parenting, as far as I'm concerned. Assuming a minority are going to be substandard parents is hardly a rational or fair way to approach the situation.


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    #304
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Stark wrote: »
    Do you have links to some statistics to back that up? Most jurisdictions have only had civil partnerships for a small number of years.

    http://www-same-sex.ined.fr/WWW/04Doc124Gunnar.pdf


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    #305
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    eightyfish wrote: »
    Excellent idea. Supporting stable families, supporting birth parents and adoptive parents. Are you gonna add to that that the parents must not be gay?

    Since the 'ideal' environment to raise kids is a heterosexual coupling then it is implied.


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    #306
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,991 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    So what happens with existing arrangements where a biological mother is raising children with her female partner? Should they have no rights under law? Why should those children be punished for not being raised by opposite sex parents? If the biological mother dies, should the children be taken away from their other mother? How is that good for children?


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    #307
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    prinz wrote: »
    http://www-same-sex.ined.fr/WWW/04Doc124Gunnar.pdf

    You do realise that's a paper studying the cross national differentials between norway and sweden six years ago? Is that really qualification on a global scale in 2010?


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    #308
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Stark wrote: »
    So what happens with existing arrangements where a biological mother is raising children with her female partner? Should they have no rights under law? Why should those children be punished for not being raised by opposite sex parents? If the biological mother dies, should the children be taken away from their other mother? How is that good for children?

    Seeing as how I didn't advocate any of those things happening then it's just pointless needling.


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    #309
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    You do realise that's a paper studying the cross national differentials between norway and sweden six years ago? Is that really qualification on a global scale in 2010?

    Do you know of any global studies done on anything in 2010?


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    #310
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    prinz wrote: »
    Do you know of any global studies done on anything in 2010?

    That's hardly the point, I'm not the one making outlandish claims regarding gay marriage in general with only desperately retrospectively resourced papers regarding two nordic countries years ago, to back it up...


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    #311
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,991 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    prinz wrote: »
    Seeing as how I didn't advocate any of those things happening then it's just pointless needling.

    Well it does happen and people are getting on with their lives in spite of your prejudices. So it makes no sense to punish children because small minded people like you don't approve of their parents' lifestyle choices.


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    #312
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    That's hardly the point, I'm not the one making outlandish claims regarding gay marriage in general with only desperately retrospectively resourced papers regarding two nordic countries years ago, to back it up...

    What outlandish claims have I made? :confused:

    [EMAIL="LOL@desperately"]:pac:[/EMAIL] desperately retrospective. I think Stark can answer that one for you :rolleyes:
    Stark wrote: »
    Most jurisdictions have only had civil partnerships for a small number of years.

    Hilarious.


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    #313
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    prinz wrote: »
    Since the 'ideal' environment to raise kids is a heterosexual coupling then it is implied.

    Surely the ideal environment to raise kids in, is a loving one....


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    #314
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,991 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    prinz wrote: »
    [EMAIL="LOL@desperately"]:pac:[/EMAIL] desperately retrospective. I think Stark can answer that one for you :rolleyes:



    Hilarious.

    I said most jurisdictions :rolleyes: Citing two Nordic countries who have given recognition for longer doesn't alter that.


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    #315
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,476 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    steve06 wrote: »
    Surely the ideal environment to raise kids in, is a loving one....

    Agreed totally, lots of kids in Ireland growing up in 'ideal heterosexual environments' but families are total skobies, with drink and drug problems, kids poorly educated and also on poor diets etc etc, and they then go on to have their own kids and cycle continues.

    Surely there should be legislation against that.

    It's raising kids with the right values and methods that is more important not if it's heterosexual or homosexual.


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    #316
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Agreed totally, lots of kids in Ireland growing up in 'ideal heterosexual environments' but families are total skobies, with drink and drug problems, kids poorly educated and also on poor diets etc etc, and they then go on to have their own kids and cycle continues.

    Surely there should be legislation against that.

    It's raising kids with the right values and methods that is more important not if it's heterosexual or homosexual.

    Best post in this thread!


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    #317
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Stark wrote: »
    I said most jurisdictions :rolleyes: Citing two Nordic countries who have given recognition for longer doesn't alter that.

    I see that point went over your head. How can you have a proper study in a place where recognition has only just started. :rolleyes: of course studies are going to be done and are going to present a better picture where recognition has been present for a longer period of time.


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    #318
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Agreed totally, lots of kids in Ireland growing up in 'ideal heterosexual environments' but families are total skobies, with drink and drug problems, kids poorly educated and also on poor diets etc etc, and they then go on to have their own kids and cycle continues. Surely there should be legislation against that..

    You are right, all those things should be dealt with.


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    #319
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    prinz wrote: »
    You are right, all those things should be dealt with.
    yea yea, now get back to my point please:
    steve06 wrote: »
    Surely the ideal environment to raise kids in, is a loving one....
    Why would a gay marriage mean this wouldn't happen?


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    #320
    General Zod
    Registered Users Posts: 2,661 ✭✭✭General Zod


    AnonoBoy wrote: »
    Oh people will be marrying potatoes and horses and microwave ovens next I suppose.

    I think we should ban marriage altogether for everyone, then we wouldn't have this problem. :mad:


    I'll have you know me and my horse are just waiting for the day we can marry legally, and when the gays get the thin end of the wedge in the stable door me and my new sporse will be bolting after them.

    That said, we already have issues communicating and don't have sex. much like most hetronormative marriages, then.


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    #321
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,476 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    General Zod wrote: »
    I'll have you know me and my horse are just waiting for the day we can marry legally, and when the gays get the thin end of the wedge in the stable door me and my new sporse will be bolting after them.

    That said, we already have issues communicating and don't have sex. much like most hetronormative marriages, then.


    I think marrying horses could be a positive thing as it will make the instituite of marraige more stable!:D


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    #322
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,991 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Matthew Broderick's already married one.


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    #323
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    prinz wrote: »
    What outlandish claims have I made? :confused:

    Where do I start?! :pac:

    Now, the UK is relatively new at civil partnerships and dissolutions, in fact the one year past before dissolution may be sought and two year rule for separation means that statistics are very new and so it is too early to tell if a trend is being set. However, these are the latest stats from the ONS;
    A total of 33,956 civil partnerships have been formed in the UK since the Civil Partnership Act came into force in December 2005.
    There were 180 civil partnership dissolutions granted in the UK in 2008.

    How do you think that tallies with the hetero marriage stats in the same period? :)


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    #324
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    steve06 wrote: »
    Why would a gay marriage mean this wouldn't happen?

    Do you expect me to say that a homosexual person is incapable of showing and acting with love? :confused:


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    #325
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Where do I start?! :pac:

    So the UK is ok, but not Nordic countries....apples..oranges... :rolleyes: the UK represents global findings now too does it? Still no mention of outlandish claims either btw.


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    #326
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    prinz wrote: »
    Do you expect me to say that a homosexual person is incapable of showing and acting with love? :confused:
    If not, why would you have a problem with them raising a child as a married couple. You're not explaining yourself or answering questions....

    Surely the ideal environment to raise kids in, is a loving one.... Why would a gay marriage mean this wouldn't happen?


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    #327
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    steve06 wrote: »
    Surely the ideal environment to raise kids in, is a loving one.... Why would a gay marriage mean this wouldn't happen?

    Not necessarily. Never said it automatically meant anything of the sort.


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    #328
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    prinz wrote: »
    So the UK is ok, but not Nordic countries....apples..oranges... :rolleyes: the UK represents global findings now too does it? Still no mention of outlandish claims either btw.

    I'm just showing you why your outlandish GLOBAL claim regarding civil union divorce was nonsense...seriously, do you really need your hand held to understand all this?


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    #329
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I'm just showing you why your outlandish GLOBAL claim regarding civil union divorce was nonsense...seriously, do you really need your hand held to understand all this?

    Where did I say it was global? btw your stats have no more global applications either........ so nonsense.


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    #330
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    prinz wrote: »
    Where did I say it was global? btw your stats have no more global applications either........ so nonsense.

    What are you waffling on about? *holds hand* I'm not making global claims, I'm refuting your claim that;
    prinz wrote: »
    Homosexuals ..... More likely to end in 'divorce'/separation..

    If you weren't talking generally or globally then perhaps you could help those of us working without the benefit of a crystal ball and add that you are only referring to norway and sweden circa 2004, when making such claims?


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    #331
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    If you weren't talking generally or globally then perhaps you could help those of us working without the benefit of a crystal ball and add that you are only referring to norway and sweden circa 2004, when making such claims?

    Well there are many studies detailing monogamy etc with homosexual couples which would lead me to believe that long term it wouldn't work and would only lead to legal difficulties and kids in turmoil. If we can avoid that IMO we should.


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