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Civil Partnership bill, can you explain something to me?

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12357…12

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    #122
    stephenmaturin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭stephenmaturin


    So this is what a conservative Klingon looks like...

    If the man's role in a marriage is made to seem effeminate in any way, by making it equivalent to the role of a homosexual man or woman, then I think that many straight men will abandon the institution. Exclusivity of this kind, which the posters here see as pure selfishness, is pretty important to men.
    So allowing marriage between a man and a woman where one is infertile is unconstitutional?

    No, it is the ability of men and women in general to start a family that counts. Child-rearing is normative, not mandatory.


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    #123
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    With the multitude of proofs of woeful, neglectful and down-right abusive parenting we are bombarded with daily, I can't believe anyone can be dumb enough to argue that the most important aspect of parenting is the sex or sexuality of the parties involved....talk about straw grabbing. :rolleyes:


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    #124
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭Daith


    stephenmaturin wrote: »
    No, it is the ability to start a family that counts. Child-rearing is normative, not mandatory.

    So if the man is infertile, he shouldn't be able to get married? He can't start a family.


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    #125
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    28064212 wrote: »
    So allowing marriage between a man and a woman where one is infertile is unconstitutional?

    No the institution of marriage is based on a male/female marriage.


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    #126
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Mr. Mercurial wrote: »
    That the constitution is a living document is a long-accepted premise of Irish jurisprudence.



    Neither can an infertile man and a woman, or an infertile woman and a man, or couples where the woman is post-menopausal.

    Consistency is a wonderful thing, you should try it.

    A document that needs referendums to change it.


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    #127
    Mr. Mercurial
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Mr. Mercurial


    stephenmaturin wrote: »
    No, it is the ability of men and women in general to start a family that counts. Child-rearing is normative, not mandatory.

    If a couple can be married without ever producing children, then an ability to produce children is not a necessary component of marriage.


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    #128
    Mr. Mercurial
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Mr. Mercurial


    Min wrote: »
    A document that needs referendums to change it.

    It is not clear that the constitution needs to be changed in order to extend civil marriage rights to homosexual couples.


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    #129
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Mr. Mercurial wrote: »
    It is not clear that the constitution needs to be changed in order to extend civil marriage rights to homosexual couples.

    You'd probably need to change the definition of 'marraige' first.


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    #130
    stephenmaturin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭stephenmaturin


    If a couple can be married without ever producing children, then an ability to produce children is not a necessary component of marriage.

    The ability to produce children is not necessary to get married in each and every case but the ability to produce children is still the normative standard for couples to get married.


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    #131
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    No it doesnt
    you just imagine it does because you want it to

    Institution of marriage is male/female, always has been in Ireland.

    It is this on which the family is founded and it must be protected, that is what the constitution is saying.


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    #132
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Mr. Mercurial wrote: »
    It is not clear that the constitution needs to be changed in order to extend civil marriage rights to homosexual couples.

    The "institution of marriage".

    How many gay couples have the state married?


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    #133
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Min wrote: »
    A document that needs referendums to change it.

    And are you expecting a referendum regarding same-sex marriage? Do you think if the bill is ratified by the Seanad that same-sex couples will not have a constitutional right to get married?
    stephenmaturin wrote:
    The ability to produce children is not necessary to get married in each and every case but the ability to produce children is still the normative standard for couples to get married.

    Historically being white was the normative standard to vote. Normative standards change when discrimination becomes unpopular and ignorance unacceptable. This is nothing new.


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    #134
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭Daith


    Min wrote: »
    It is this on which the family is founded and it must be protected, that is what the constitution is saying.

    Protected at the expense of current same sex families that actually exist in Ireland.

    What exactly does it need protecting from. Will straight people go gay or stop having kids because of gay marriage?


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    #135
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    And are you expecting a referendum regarding same-sex marriage? Do you think if the bill is ratified by the Seanad that same-sex couples will not have a constitutional right to get married.

    I do not expect a referendum as the government would probably expect it would be defeated.

    The bill does not grant a constitutional right to same sex couples to get married.


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    #136
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Min wrote: »
    Institution of marriage is male/female,
    Not defined in constitution
    Min wrote: »
    I always has been in Ireland..
    Irrelevant
    Min wrote: »
    I do not expect a referendum as the government would probably expect it would be defeated..
    Or they mightnt think it necessary

    Or they mightnt want the cost
    stephenmaturin wrote: »
    If the man's role in a marriage is made to seem effeminate in any way, by making it equivalent to the role of a homosexual man or woman, then I think that many straight men will abandon the institution. Exclusivity of this kind, which the posters here see as pure selfishness, is pretty important to men.

    WTF ?


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    #137
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Min wrote: »
    I do not expect a referendum as the government would probably expect it would be defeated.

    And why do you think that is?
    Min wrote: »
    The bill does not grant a constitutional right to same sex couples to get married.

    What does it do then? If a civil registrar was to refuse to marry a couple presumably that couple could sue based on an infringement of their rights as laid out in the constitution and specified in law?


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    #138
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Not defined in constitution
    In December 2006, judgement in the 'KAL Case', the Irish High Court held that marriage as defined in the Irish Constitution was between a man and a woman

    Isn't it?


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    #139
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Daith wrote: »
    Protected at the expense of current same sex families that actually exist in Ireland.

    What exactly does it need protecting from. Will straight people go gay or stop having kids because of gay marriage?

    I would suspect protect it as in placing the nuclear family in a special place of recognition.


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    #140
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    squod wrote: »
    Isn't it?

    "Was" being the operative word there - since a bill has now passed the dail regarding same sex partnerships that didn't exist in 2006, I'd argue that what a judge considered relevant to Irish law and his decision 4 years ago has changed somewhat.


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    #141
    Mr. Mercurial
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Mr. Mercurial


    squod wrote: »
    You'd probably need to change the definition of 'marraige' first.

    You'd need to show that there is an emerging or existing consensus that families are understood to encompass homosexual as well as heterosexual unions. The constitution does not define marriage as far as I know.
    stephenmaturin wrote: »
    The ability to produce children is not necessary to get married in each and every case but the ability to produce children is still the normative standard for couples to get married.

    Nonsense. 'Normative standard' is mere gibberish in this context. The ability to produce children is not necessary to get married in any case, therefore it cannot be a necessary property of marriage.


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    #142
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    squod wrote: »
    Isn't it?

    I think that is where I came to say the constitution says it is between a man and a woman.

    It was hidden in my brain, you found the source :)


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    #143
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭Daith


    Min wrote: »
    I would suspect protect it as in placing the nuclear family in a special place of recognition.

    Why does it need a special place of recognition? Can we give them a parade or something?


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    #144
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    "Was" being the operative word there - since a bill has now passed the dail regarding same sex partnerships that didn't exist in 2006, I'd argue that what a judge considered relevant to Irish law and his decision 4 years ago has changed somewhat.

    The Dáil has not recognised gay marriage, the civil union bill does not recognise gay marriage.
    It is not marriage.


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    #145
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭Daith


    Min wrote: »
    The Dáil has not recognised gay marriage, the civil union bill does not recognise gay marriage.
    It is not marriage.

    And being gay was illegal before 1993. Things change and the hope would be that this would be a sign of progress.


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    #146
    CrazySnakeLady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭CrazySnakeLady


    Min wrote: »
    No the institution of marriage is based on a male/female marriage.
    Min wrote: »
    Institution of marriage is male/female, always has been in Ireland.

    It is this on which the family is founded and it must be protected, that is what the constitution is saying.
    Min wrote: »
    I do not expect a referendum as the government would probably expect it would be defeated.

    The bill does not grant a constitutional right to same sex couples to get married.

    It must hurt to be that closed minded, whats that like? no seriously do you get headaches when people try to express their individuality in your presence? do you become a Hitler like when people say they can tell the difference between Butter and I Can't Believe It's Not Butter but you KNOW they are wrong and feel like placing them into camp where they can concentrate a lot on their mistakes?


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    #147
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Daith wrote: »
    Why does it need a special place of recognition? Can we give them a parade or something?

    Marriage in most cases gives the most stable foundation for a family.


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    #148
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Min wrote: »
    The Dáil has not recognised gay marriage, the civil union bill does not recognise gay marriage.
    It is not marriage.

    It's marriage as far as me and most other people are concerned. That may bug the crap out of you but meh, that's just an added bonus. If hetero couples getting "unions" by civil registrars are married, then so are homosexuals.


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    #149
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    What is the legal position of a couple who marry in a country where Gay marriage is legal and subsequently come to Ireland ?

    Are they
    1) Married
    2) Civil partners
    3) Neither of the above


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    #150
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    CrazySnakeLady wrote: »
    It must hurt to be that closed minded, whats that like? no seriously do you get headaches when people try to express their individuality in your presence does it? do you become as Hitler like when people say they can tell the difference between Butter and I Can't Believe It's Not Butter?

    I am sorry you are unable to understand the Irish constitution.
    You want to interpret it incorrectly to suit your thinking, the fact is and I heard this discussed on current affairs programs on RTE radio 1 is that a referendum would be needed to allow gay marriage.

    I listen to people and I don't go about comparing them to Hitler because they have a different opinion.


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    #151
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭Daith


    Min wrote: »
    Marriage in most cases gives the most stable foundation for a family.


    What does it need to be protected from? What will gay marriage with the same rights as a straight marriage do to it?


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