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Civil Partnership bill, can you explain something to me?

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    #152
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    What is the legal position of a couple who marry in a country where Gay marriage is legal and subsequently come to Ireland ?

    Are they
    1) Married
    2) Civil partners
    3) Neither of the above

    An English speaking country?
    1 the formal union of a man and a woman, typically as recognized by law, by which they become husband and wife:


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    #153
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    It's marriage as far as me and most other people are concerned. That may bug the crap out of you but meh, that's just an added bonus. If hetero couples getting "unions" by civil registrars are married, then so are homosexuals.

    It just bugs me that people want to be ignorant.

    It was also on Radio 1 the other day that marriage involves a ceremony, there are none for civil unions.


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    #154
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Min wrote: »
    It just bugs me that people want to be ignorant.

    Ditto...


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    #155
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭Daith


    Min wrote: »
    It just bugs me that people want to be ignorant.

    It bugs me that people want to deny basic human rights to some people in order to protect something that doesn't need protecting.


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    #156
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Daith wrote: »
    What does it need to be protected from? What will gay marriage with the same rights as a straight marriage do to it?

    Change the 'institution of marriage'?


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    #157
    Caoimhín
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    Min wrote: »
    It was also on Radio 1 the other day that marriage involves a ceremony, there are none for civil unions.

    Define a ceremony.


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    #158
    CrazySnakeLady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭CrazySnakeLady


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    What is the legal position of a couple who marry in a country where Gay marriage is legal and subsequently come to Ireland ?

    Are they
    1) Married
    2) Civil partners
    3) Neither of the above

    Neither of the above, a gay/lesbian/transsexual marriage in a different country isn't recognised in Ireland, in Ireland you could marry again to someone else (Of the opposite gender) and as long as you didn't leave the country it'd be fine but if you landed anywhere else in Europe you could be done for bigammy(sp?)


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    #159
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Daith wrote: »
    It bugs me that people want to deny basic human rights to some people in order to protect something that doesn't need protecting.

    Who decided it is a basic human right?


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    #160
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭Daith


    Min wrote: »
    Change the 'institution of marriage'?

    What does it do to a straight marriage? Nothing.


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    #161
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭Daith


    Min wrote: »
    Who decided it is a basic human right?

    The Catholic Church apparently.


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    #162
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Caoimhín wrote: »
    Define a ceremony.

    If it was gay marriage it would be 'do you paddy take John to be your husband....' and so on.

    For civil union there is none of that, Paddy and John would just register it without any ceremony.


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    #163
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Daith wrote: »
    The Catholic Church apparently.

    I didn't know the church wanted gay marriage.


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    #164
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Min wrote: »
    Who decided it is a basic human right?

    The Dail, and 80% of the Irish population that was polled on the issue, I believe.

    I thought it was the case that if the Seanad pass the bill that the supreme court will then rule on it's constitutionality...


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    #165
    Caoimhín
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    Min wrote: »
    If it was gay marriage it would be 'do you paddy take John to be your husband....' and so on.

    For civil union there is none of that, Paddy and John would just register it without any ceremony.

    You're thinking of a wedding ceremony.


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    #166
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Min wrote: »
    If it was gay marriage it would be 'do you paddy take John to be your husband....' and so on.

    For civil union there is none of that, Paddy and John would just register it without any ceremony.

    Eh...that's not the way it works anywhere else. I'm guessing your experience with same-sex marriage is pretty limited, huh?


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    #167
    Piste
    Registered Users Posts: 11,440 ✭✭✭✭Piste


    Min wrote: »
    I think that is where I came to say the constitution says it is between a man and a woman.

    It was hidden in my brain, you found the source :)

    It doesn't explicitly state in the constitution that marriage is between a man and a woman. A judge just interpreted it to mean as much and said so in his judgement.
    Min wrote: »
    Marriage in most cases gives the most stable foundation for a family.

    What makes you say that?
    Min wrote: »
    It just bugs me that people want to be ignorant.

    It was also on Radio 1 the other day that marriage involves a ceremony, there are none for civil unions.

    For a secular marriage by a civil servant there does not need to be a ceremony, but couples choose to have one to make a celebration of the whole thing. I imagine the same would apply to civil partnership.


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    #168
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Caoimhín wrote: »
    You're thinking of a wedding ceremony.

    Thinking specifically of a church ceremony, I think...I had a wedding ceremony and I have a certification of marriage and the immortal words "Do you take..." we not uttered. :cool:


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    #169
    CrazySnakeLady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭CrazySnakeLady


    Min wrote: »
    Change the 'institution of marriage'?

    The 'institution of marriage' that is two people commiting to each other for life? that 'institution of marriage'? because to be honest you didn't all fight this much when Divorce was on the table and that didn't preserve 'institution of marriage' did it? Gay marriage will come in just like Divorce did, you can all bitch and moan but the truth is that eventually majority wins and right now the main opponents are the church and they are the minority now, in 10 years they'll be all but gone


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    #170
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    squod wrote: »
    An English speaking country?

    How is that relevant ?

    Heterosexual marriages from just about every other country on earth are usually recognised here unless there are issues such as polygamy, force or age

    What about a transsexual who marries before the surgery and then lives with their spouse as a gay couple ?


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    #171
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Eh...that's not the way it works anywhere else. I'm guessing your experience with same-sex marriage is pretty limited, huh?

    Does it matter how it works anywhere else?
    It's like saying in a few countries they drive on the left side of the road but that's not the way it works anywhere else.
    What matters is how it works in this country.

    If it is marriage then why can heterosexual co-habiting couples register their partnership too?


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    #172
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    CrazySnakeLady wrote: »
    The 'institution of marriage' that is two people commiting to each other for life? that 'institution of marriage'? because to be honest you didn't all fight this much when Divorce was on the table and that didn't preserve 'institution of marriage' did it? Gay marriage will come in just like Divorce did, you can all bitch and moan but the truth is that eventually majority wins and right now the main opponents are the church and they are the minority now, in 10 years they'll be all but gone

    Who knows what way this country could be in 10 years.

    ok, how many gay couples have been married in Ireland for marriage to be classified as an institution, the two people you talk about have always been male and female, show me otherwise for your point to stand.


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    #173
    Mr. Mercurial
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Mr. Mercurial


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    How is that relevant ?

    Heterosexual marriages from just about every other country on earth are usually recognised here unless there are issues such as polygamy, force or age

    What about a transsexual who marries before the surgery and then lives with their spouse as a gay couple ?


    They were debating this a few minutes ago in the senate. Gay people who get married abroad or enter into civil unions/domestic partnerships etc. may be recognised only as civil partners, effectively downgrading their status if they happen to be married in the original country.

    David Norris, in introducing an ammendment on this topic, asked what would happen if the Icelandic PM, who recently married her partner were to visit Ireland or decide to come live her.


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    #174
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Min wrote: »
    Does it matter how it works anywhere else?
    It's like saying in a few countries they drive on the left side of the road but that's not the way it works anywhere else.
    What matters is how it works in this country.

    And yet the partnership bill hasn't even been brought into law and you feel qualified to tell us all what the actual solemnising will contain, ignoring what happens in other countries that have also passed said bill. Amazing! Can I have a go of your crystal ball please, it's a big jackpot on friday.
    Min wrote: »
    If it is marriage then why can heterosexual co-habiting couples register their partnership too?

    What...loike....common law husband and wife.... :eek:


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    #175
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    Wee bit of info I found awhile ago that might be intersting btw ;)

    Research Shows Two Gay Parents Are Better Than A Single Straight One

    Interesting to consider regards adoption.

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



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    #176
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Piste wrote: »
    It doesn't explicitly state in the constitution that marriage is between a man and a woman. A judge just interpreted it to mean as much and said so in his judgement.



    What makes you say that?



    For a secular marriage by a civil servant there does not need to be a ceremony, but couples choose to have one to make a celebration of the whole thing. I imagine the same would apply to civil partnership.

    I say that from my own experience and that of my friends and neighbours.

    So heterosexual couples in the bill who are getting their partnership recognised are also getting married?


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    #177
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    And yet the partnership bill hasn't even been brought into law and you feel qualified to tell us all what the actual solemnising will contain, ignoring what happens in other countries that have also passed said bill. Amazing! Can I have a go of your crystal ball please, it's a big jackpot on friday.



    What...loike....common law husband and wife.... :eek:

    the draft bill is online. You can read it. It is not a huge secret. There has been no talk about any major changes to it.

    It is not marriage, it could be a couple where one has a child and the other is not the biological parent and they want to get their partnership recognised so if the biological parent died the non biological partner could take care of the child and have a right to property and so on of the partner.

    I don't know how the same law can then be taken to be marriage for gay couples when it isn't for heterosexual couples.


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    #178
    Mr. Mercurial
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Mr. Mercurial


    Min wrote: »
    It is not marriage, it could be a couple where one has a child and the other is not the biological parent and they want to get their partnership recognised so if the biological parent died the non biological partner could take care of the child and have a right to property and so on of the partner.


    What are you talking about? Civil partnerships will confer no meaningful rights of guardianship or inheritance over children as far as I am aware.


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    #179
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Mr. Mercurial wrote: »
    What are you talking about? Civil partnerships will confer no meaningful rights of guardianship or inheritance over children as far as I am aware.

    I apologise as I am wrong :D


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    #180
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    I know it's no secret, I've read it - btw are you reading the 2009 amended version? The one I have has an awful lot of amendments such as:
    10.—Section 17 of the Act of 2004 is amended—
    (a) in paragraph (1)(b), by substituting “deaths, marriages and
    civil partnerships” for “deaths and marriages”, and
    (b) in subsection (13), by substituting “, marriages and civil
    partnerships” for “and marriages”.
    25

    What I still don't understand is why you think won't contain any kind of ceremony...the bill contains the minimum that has to happen for the union to be recognised by law, I don't think it's restricted to that and that alone.

    I'd consider any co-habiting partnership or union made via law to be a marriage, whether that be in church, in a registry office, or whatever other kind of legal solemniser. I think the semantics in the bill are largely pointless, it's clear to all but a blinkered few desperately clinging onto their archaic notions of what constitutes a traditional marriage what direction the law is heading in, indeed what the majority of Irish citizens wish the law to contain. :cool:


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    #181
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Mr. Mercurial wrote: »
    They were debating this a few minutes ago in the senate. Gay people who get married abroad or enter into civil unions/domestic partnerships etc. may be recognised only as civil partners, effectively downgrading their status if they happen to be married in the original country.

    David Norris, in introducing an ammendment on this topic, asked what would happen if the Icelandic PM, who recently married her partner were to visit Ireland or decide to come live her.

    Min and David Norris are in agreement.

    It isn't full marriage as Norris points out.

    Close, but no Cigar.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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