A Foxy Dilemma

Sonnenblumen

Recently I came across an unusual dilemma in a sub-urban setting. Here's the situation. Next door the house has been vacant for some time and the garden has become grossly overgrown. Recently a vixen along with four cubs have taken up residence in the overgrown garden!

Now here's the problem. Several times daily the vixen along with young foxes are visiting neighbouring garden and fouling everywhere. Of great concern is the potential health hazard of fox faeces in the garden and a real fear of the very young visiting grandchildren being attacked by the foxes (this fear has come about by the recent fox attack of a baby in the UK).

What does one do? Be vigilent and wait to allow foxes to grow, wean and disperse? Is this an unfair uncompromising challenge of nature in a sub-urban setting? Foxes are increasingly seen around Dublin everyday, but I have never seen any take up residence in a garden.

Has anyone had a similar experience and how or what actions were taken?

looksee

I have heard of a few instances in the UK of foxes becoming urbanised and a pest - a relative had a family of foxes under a shed and they were a nuisance scattering rubbish and leaving droppings.

While they are cute and pretty and all the rest, I think you could contact maybe the dog wardens and see if they have any policy on them. If they grow and disperse that will be four more urbanised foxes just in one garden.

looksee

Hmm, I got interested and checked up to see if there were any regulations about foxes and it appears they are flavour of the month! Have a look at this website http://www.rte.ie/radio/mooneygoeswild/factsheets/fox/index.html

Sonnenblumen

looksee wrote: »

Hmm, I got interested and checked up to see if there were any regulations about foxes and it appears they are flavour of the month! Have a look at this website http://www.rte.ie/radio/mooneygoeswild/factsheets/fox/index.html

Thanks for that link, pretty much pro Fox propaganda. Although I have no real hard and fast attitude towards foxes in general, I would consider them vermin, and if out of sight then thats fine. Taking up residence in a neighbouring garden is a completely different matter and no, I would not be so tolerant or patient to wait until cubs are reared. Spoiling and scavenging might be acceptable to Fox lovers, but health hazards are a much more serious threat to people and/or family pets.

AFAIK DSPCA do not rescue foxes? As for City Councils, well, I wouldn't even go there!

Where could I hire a band of hungry hounds?:D

secman

If the garden was knocked back into shape and kept so, would this kind of activity cause the vixen and cubs to find alternative accomodation. How about contacting the owner with a view to doing this ?


Secman

skywalker_208

Was that attack in the UK proven to be a fox?
I remember reading about about some experts saying it was unlikely...

Sonnenblumen

secman wrote: »

If the garden was knocked back into shape and kept so, would this kind of activity cause the vixen and cubs to find alternative accomodation. How about contacting the owner with a view to doing this ?


Secman

Fair point Secman and it might be worth pursuing? However the key point remains, how does one deal with the increasing encroachment by foxes in
urban areas. I am a little uneasy with the apparent 'laissez faire' attitude and 'not our responsibilty' responses from the Authorities.

My otherwise animal lover instincts fail me when it comes to foxes in urban gardens.

Discodog

Foxes will spread into urban areas & the only way of stopping this is to reduce their food source - our waste. There is a negligible risk of disease & as rats are a main part of the fox's diet, they reduce disease.

There has been a huge amount of hysteria regarding fox aggression. I have rescued many foxes, including those that have been involved in RTA's & are in severe pain. I have never met an aggressive fox.

If you choose to directly threaten her & her cubs she is more likely to move them than become aggressive. It would be really beneficial to the grandchildren to be able to visit granny & watch the foxes. I had the opportunity to feed wild foxes as a child & it had a profound effect on me.

10,000 foxes live in London. Prior to the alleged attack no one had reported problems with aggressive foxes. Since the incident some people have jumped on the bandwagon but a recent survey showed that 65% of Londoners were pro fox.

So why not let the foxes be ?. Better than having the empty house full of rats & the cubs will soon disperse to establish their own territories. The urban fox is just doing what comes naturally & taking advantage of a food source. She won't hurt you so why hurt her ?.

Sonnenblumen

I probably like many urban living people had a benign view of foxes, largely based on the romantic notion that they were largely shy country dwellers which apart from eating bugs and slugs the main criticisms one would encounter concerned foxes killing young lambs and fowl. Yes in recent years, sightings of foxes in urban areas has become an everyday event. However the more I investigate, the more my views are changing and I too would be concerned that foxes are not furry friends. The fox population in Dublin area has increased dramatically and is now close to numbers in London area. As they change habitat the risk of disease increases. Foxes are not clean and their presence in urban gardens is far from an upclose friendly learning experience. On the contrary as is the case with any scavenging animal, disease/infection is a high risk, and more so for some groups including young children.

I am not proposing a fox cull but notwithstanding your positive experiences, I do not think it sensible, wise or indeed safe, to encourage closer contact between city dwellers especially young children and foxes. For me, it does appear from a health and safety perspective at least, that the fox (despite our romaticised images/notions) has much more in common with the common rat and caution at all times should be advised.

John Mason

may be you could contact fox watch ireland?

http://homepage.eircom.net/~foxwatchireland/home.htm

the reason foxes are coming into urban settings is because the urban has moved in to their territory. their homes, land, and food supplies are rapidly disappearing.

they are probably thinking the exact same things as you

poor foxes

The Urban Fox Project, UCD.

Dave Wall
Mammal Research Group,
Zoology Dept.,
UCD, Belfield,
Dublin 4.

Tel: 087 2977931
e-mail: mammals@ucd.ie

flutered

irishbird wrote: »

may be you could contact fox watch ireland?

http://homepage.eircom.net/~foxwatchireland/home.htm

the reason foxes are coming into urban settings is because the urban has moved in to their territory. their homes, land, and food supplies are rapidly disappearing.

they are probably thinking the exact same things as you

poor foxes

the recession have solved that one.
b.t.w have you ever heard a hare screaming as a fox skinned it alive for pleasure. poor hare.

Discodog

flutered wrote: »

b.t.w have you ever heard a hare screaming as a fox skinned it alive for pleasure. poor hare.

No I haven't. Not after donkey's years of living in the country surrounded by foxes & sometimes working/rescuing them. Anyone who has ever seen any predator chasing fast moving prey knows that they have to kill quickly to avoid the prey running off. Foxes, like most carnivores, go for the throat which is why we find headless chickens.

Again like other predators foxes do not kill for fun. Few animals do with the domestic cat as one example in that it is not killing for food. Can you provide some evidence that a fox has skinned a Hare alive ?.

Discodog

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

As they change habitat the risk of disease increases. Foxes are not clean and their presence in urban gardens is far from an upclose friendly learning experience. On the contrary as is the case with any scavenging animal, disease/infection is a high risk, and more so for some groups including young children.

What diseases do you mean ?. I am not aware of any Government, Health Office, or Local Authority that has ever raised the issue of foxes posing a disease risk to humans. Foxes are very clean. Their dens are immaculate & apart from mange, which they catch from domestic dogs, I am not aware of any other health problems.

Domestic cats scavenge in bins etc like the fox but in even greater numbers. They then come into the owners homes. If there were a risk of infection, which I don't think there is, then we should start with cats.

Sonnenblumen

irishbird wrote: »

may be you could contact fox watch ireland?

http://homepage.eircom.net/~foxwatchireland/home.htm

the reason foxes are coming into urban settings is because the urban has moved in to their territory. their homes, land, and food supplies are rapidly disappearing.

they are probably thinking the exact same things as you

poor foxes

The Urban Fox Project, UCD.

Dave Wall
Mammal Research Group,
Zoology Dept.,
UCD, Belfield,
Dublin 4.

Tel: 087 2977931
e-mail: mammals@ucd.ie

Nonsense, I don't think central Dublin could be accused of encroaching on fox territory. I have come across Urban Fox Watch.
Thanks.

Discodog

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Nonsense, I don't think central Dublin could be accused of encroaching on fox territory. I have come across Urban Fox Watch.
Thanks.

Every town, city & development has encroached on fox territories. They were here long before us.

mathepac

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

... The fox population in Dublin area has increased dramatically and is now close to numbers in London area. ...

Some of the other content of your post has been challenged elsewhere, but do you have any evidence for your statement above?

Sonnenblumen

Discodog wrote: »

What diseases do you mean ?. I am not aware of any Government, Health Office, or Local Authority that has ever raised the issue of foxes posing a disease risk to humans. Foxes are very clean. Their dens are immaculate & apart from mange, which they catch from domestic dogs, I am not aware of any other health problems.

Domestic cats scavenge in bins etc like the fox but in even greater numbers. They then come into the owners homes. If there were a risk of infection, which I don't think there is, then we should start with cats.

The lack of information from Authorities is hardly surprising nor would it be unusual as there are also many other areas where the Authorities have failed miserably to provide proper advice, information or assistance to the General Public. I subscribe to the view that Public welfare will always come before Animal welfare.

A simple Google search will provide lots of sources detailing the various diseases carried by Foxes. I was also surprised just how serious it can be. You are quite wrong, many if not most Foxes suffer Mange and are the primary cause for infecting domestic pets. How could you possibly be so pro-Fox and not know this? In fact in some countries, foxes are a primary carrier of rabies. Fortunately this is not present in Ireland.

Perhaps some wild cats do scavenge in bins but I would say that the vast majority of cat owners are probably the most caring and loving animal owners/carers around. One only has to look at the growth in overall sales of cat food products (increasingly premium products). Domesticated animals are the responsibility of the respective owners and is not relevant to wild animals.

Sonnenblumen

Discodog wrote: »

Every town, city & development has encroached on fox territories. They were here long before us.

I'm not going to discuss some position which is frankly stupid and silly like "here long before us". The evolution of man has been largely positive but with a few consequences, and as population continues to grow, people will have to be housed/accommodated.

BTW, I'm focussed on foxes in urban areas.

Discodog

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

A simple Google search will provide lots of sources detailing the various diseases carried by Foxes. I was also surprised just how serious it can be. You are quite wrong, many if not most Foxes suffer Mange and are the primary cause for infecting domestic pets. How could you possibly be so pro-Fox and not know this? In fact in some countries, foxes are a primary carrier of rabies. Fortunately this is not present in Ireland.

Rabies does not exist here.

Mange to quote "Sarcoptes scabiei var. canis can infect both foxes and domestic dogs. The disease can be fatal in foxes but can be easily treated in dogs."

Fox tapeworm can infect dogs but dogs need to be regularly wormed anyway.

Toxicara Canis is present in foxes but also in ever domestic dog unless it is wormed.

So Freddy hardly poses any additional disease risk that is not already there.

Discodog

mathepac wrote: »

Some of the other content of your post has been challenged elsewhere, but do you have any evidence for your statement above?

I would not want to put words into Sonnen's mouth but he may be confusing population with density. Dublin only has a fraction of the fox numbers of London but the density, ie number of foxes per sq mile is believed to be approaching London densities in a few areas.

But this seems to be based on guesswork. The fox population of London has been accurately determined. I am not aware of any study that has done the same in Dublin.

Sonnenblumen

Discodog wrote: »

So Freddy hardly poses any additional disease risk that is not already there.

Wrong again. Apart from the damage to gardens, potential threats include killing pets and a range of diseases which can affect humans (directly) and family pets and in turn affect humans (indirectly).

Fox faeces especially in gardens where there are young children is a serious health threat especially if there are no domestic animals present.

I have already acknowledged there is no rabies in Ireland, but in other countries where rabies is present, foxes are generally rabid.

Discodog

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Wrong again. Apart from the damage to gardens, potential threats include killing pets and a range of diseases which can affect humans (directly) and family pets and in turn affect humans (indirectly).

Fox faeces especially in gardens where there are young children is a serious health threat especially if there are no domestic animals present.

I have already acknowledged there is no rabies in Ireland, but in other countries where rabies is present, foxes are generally rabid.

Killing pets if they are left unsecured & no foxes do not normally kill cats. Yes fox faeces can be a minor risk as can dog faeces & cat faeces. If your garden is being visited by fox but never is visited by a dog or cat then your children could be a higher risk from toxicara. But they could also catch Vials disease from rats unless there is a fox or cat to get rid of them.

Even with the recent furore in London no one is suggesting that foxes pose a risk of infection.

flutered

Discodog wrote: »

No I haven't. Not after donkey's years of living in the country surrounded by foxes & sometimes working/rescuing them. Anyone who has ever seen any predator chasing fast moving prey knows that they have to kill quickly to avoid the prey running off. Foxes, like most carnivores, go for the throat which is why we find headless chickens.

Again like other predators foxes do not kill for fun. Few animals do with the domestic cat as one example in that it is not killing for food. Can you provide some evidence that a fox has skinned a Hare alive ?.

no i do not have video evidence, manys the time i have heard it, always nocturnal,
i have seen foxes running with turkeys , geese and chickens across their backs,
as i have spent the vast majority of my life traipsing both hill and dale so i must have an inkling as to the workings of wildlife,
op have you ever seen a she cat skinning a live frog to feed her young, it is usually the 1st meat that they taste.

Discodog

flutered wrote: »

no i do not have video evidence, manys the time i have heard it, always nocturnal,
i have seen foxes running with turkeys , geese and chickens across their backs,
as i have spent the vast majority of my life traipsing both hill and dale so i must have an inkling as to the workings of wildlife,
op have you ever seen a she cat skinning a live frog to feed her young, it is usually the 1st meat that they taste.

OK so no proof - why does that not surprise me & it happens at night just like the frog skinning !. So any other myths & old wives tales ?.

flutered

Discodog wrote: »

OK so no proof - why does that not surprise me & it happens at night just like the frog skinning !. So any other myths & old wives tales ?.

i never said that the frog skinning takes place at night, these are not myths nor old wives tales, i am in my 60s so i am not used to traipsing around with a camcorder, but then when i was lively no one had them, why can you not accept some ones word, not riddicule it.
as to it happening at night do not foxes do most of theis rambling at night also.
would you be one of the people who can see only one point of view your own.
btw outside my front door there are 15 acres with nothing in it only wildlife, and with just grass allowed to grow wild.

Discodog

I do not believe it because I have never seen it, heard of it, seen any written reference to it. It has nothing to do with you. If my best friend told me that he had been abducted by aliens I would not believe him. I too have spent my life in the countryside. I am constantly learning by observation & listening to others.

I often hear of country tales that are based on folklore or suspicion. Many relate to foxes. I have been lucky enough to spend time, in the field, with world respected fox experts & I have seen that most of the myths really are myths.

The fox suffers most because it is our largest predator. We killed off the Wolf & there are those who believe that the fox should suffer the same fate. I do not think that foxes pose any threat to gardeners & I would happily accept a little digging for the privilege of watching a wild animal.

CJhaughey

Discodog wrote: »

Killing pets if they are left unsecured & no foxes do not normally kill cats.

There was a study recently of Fox stomach contents and a large proportion of fox stomach contents is domestic cat.
Whether feral or domesticated is unknown but the fact remains that foxes can and do eat cats.

The Sweeper

CJhaughey wrote: »

There was a study recently of Fox stomach contents and a large proportion of fox stomach contents is domestic cat.
Whether feral or domesticated is unknown but the fact remains that foxes can and do eat cats.

CJ can you provide a link to that study, or any info on who conducted it or where it was conducted?

I find it impossible to source conclusive information on this question, but it's one that I get asked a lot (cat rescue stuff) so a reference would be useful.

Sonnenblumen

Discodog wrote: »

OK so no proof - why does that not surprise me & it happens at night just like the frog skinning !. So any other myths & old wives tales ?.

You must live a very closeted lifestyle, if and it is extraordinary you as country dweller has no experience/evidence/awareness of fox attacks on chicken, turkey etc etc.

In direct contrast, I am a city dweller but do spend a lot of time in West of Ireland! One need not travel far in eg Connemara to meet people who have suffered losses because of fox attacks.

Patently obvious you are in denial.

flutered

op please do not accuse me of supporting myths or old wives tales, if one lives in the country long enough one will hear and see things that the normal person will not, the reason some people like to learn and are observent, others cannot see the wood for the trees, i am not replying to any more of you posts as you have only one point of view, that is your own, which sometimes is misinformed, you remind me of a local co. cllr, who has 2 points of view his own and that of the party he repesents, in reatity then he has only one.

johngalway

You have three options as I see it.

Pest control company removes the foxes.
Attempt to get the neighbours to tidy up nextdoor in the hope they'll move on.
Fence in your property in such a way that foxes can't access it.

They see your property as part of their territory, which is why you are finding fox scat.