A Foxy Dilemma

flutered

another way would be to install an electric fence, in the country they have great respect for them, i have no experience of urban foxes.
one can purchase anti fox electric fencing, i used it when i was rearing free range poultry of all descriptions, as this area always had an infestation of them.

johngalway

flutered wrote: »

another way would be to install an electric fence, in the country they have great respect for them, i have no experience of urban foxes.
one can purchase anti fox electric fencing, i used it when i was rearing free range poultry of all descriptions, as this area always had an infestation of them.

Electric fences are quite good. Though we don't know the situation of the property, an electric fence may not be kindly looked on by other neighbours.

Discodog

The Sweeper wrote: »

CJ can you provide a link to that study, or any info on who conducted it or where it was conducted?

I find it impossible to source conclusive information on this question, but it's one that I get asked a lot (cat rescue stuff) so a reference would be useful.

I too would love to see a link as this totally opposes all the studies that I have ever heard of. This study contradicts the view of foxes killing cats.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=19076577

However johngalway made the following comment in another thread:

" Foxes will eat cats, stomach contents in a study I contributed foxes to had domestic cat inside"

So maybe John can give us a link or at least some information as to who conducted the study & when so that we can look it up.

Of course foxes take chickens if the owners don't secure them properly. I kept chickens, ducks, & geese in the countryside for many years & never lost one to a fox.

I do not have one point of view. I research, I talk to experts & make my own observations. There are lots of myths regarding foxes. It is no different to farmers in the UK claiming that Red Kites were eating lambs (they were eating earthworms !) or Jackie Healy Rae claiming that White Tailed Eagles used to take babies from mother's arms.

Read The Complete Fox by Les Stocker - a man who has been around more foxes than any of us.

johngalway

Discodog wrote: »

" Foxes will eat cats, stomach contents in a study I contributed foxes to had domestic cat inside"

So maybe John can give us a link or at least some information as to who conducted the study & when so that we can look it up.

Contact NUIG, the Department of Zoology, two ish years back some students undertook a study of Neosporosis in Cattle and how it's spread. The Department will have the names of the students involved. One guy was responsible for the foxes, he sent the stomachs to another student who dissected them and examined the contents. The original student then sent me the results when he got them. He had an ID here, NeoResearcher I think it was, but I am not sure if that ID is active any longer as the study may have been completed.

Discodog

Thanks I have sent some emails. The biggest fox rescue in the UK which is also Europe's biggest wildlife hospital have carried out PM's on hundreds of foxes. As far as I know they have never found any evidence of cat predation.

Whilst finding cat bones in a fox would be evidence of it being eaten it might not mean that it was killed. By far the biggest cat killer is the motor car. I often see dead cats at the roadside - even one outside Argos in the City. These would provide an easy meal for a fox. The only way to know for sure would be a PM to determine if the cat has sustained fatal injuries consistent with a fox bite.

Sonnenblumen

Clearly some people take foxes much more seriously and consider the risks/damage associated with these animals:

"The threat of foxes to Tasmania is clearly an issue of great concern and every effort must be made to return Tasmania to a fox free status."


http://www.dpiw.tas.gov.au/inter.nsf/WebPages/LBUN-5K43KE?open

The Sweeper

To be fair, you can't really compare Tasmania, an ecosystem that was isolated for millions of years and is now suffering at the hands of an introduced species, with Ireland, where foxes are native. The fox watch programmes in Tasmania and Victoria are designed to monitor fox numbers because of the damage they're doing to native wildlife (and in rural areas particularly, to domestic fowl populations).

They're capable of the same damage in Ireland, certainly, but the indigenous Irish wildlife population has developed side by side with the red fox for thousands of years and is more suited to withstanding spikes and troughs in fox numbers.

(For the five years we lived in Woking, we'd notice, year in and year out, the rise in the rabbit population, immediately followed by a rise in the fox population, and then the decline in same.)

Interesting to see that in the 'dangers to domestic animals' section on the Tasmanian page, there is no mention of foxes attacking and eating cats as a primary food source.

(Then again this could also be because Tasmania's fragile ecosystem is suffering at the hands of the cat too, another introduced species, so they don't give a monkeys if the foxes eat the cats... )

Cabaal

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Clearly some people take foxes much more seriously and consider the risks/damage associated with these animals:

"The threat of foxes to Tasmania is clearly an issue of great concern and every effort must be made to return Tasmania to a fox free status."

http://www.dpiw.tas.gov.au/inter.nsf/WebPages/LBUN-5K43KE?open

Completely unrelated to this thread, a fox is a invasive species to that part of the work in much the same fashion as rabbits are

So your point is...well completely pointless

As mentioned above cats also have massively affected that part of the world, I guess we should also kill any loose cats in Ireland and also restrict ownership of them due to the massive amount of wildlife they kill

Sonnenblumen

The Sweeper wrote: »

To be fair, you can't really compare Tasmania, an ecosystem that was isolated for millions of years and is now suffering at the hands of an introduced species, with Ireland, where foxes are native. The fox watch programmes in Tasmania and Victoria are designed to monitor fox numbers because of the damage they're doing to native wildlife (and in rural areas particularly, to domestic fowl populations).

They're capable of the same damage in Ireland, certainly, but the indigenous Irish wildlife population has developed side by side with the red fox for thousands of years and is more suited to withstanding spikes and troughs in fox numbers.

(For the five years we lived in Woking, we'd notice, year in and year out, the rise in the rabbit population, immediately followed by a rise in the fox population, and then the decline in same.)

Interesting to see that in the 'dangers to domestic animals' section on the Tasmanian page, there is no mention of foxes attacking and eating cats as a primary food source.

(Then again this could also be because Tasmania's fragile ecosystem is suffering at the hands of the cat too, another introduced species, so they don't give a monkeys if the foxes eat the cats... )

Of course the fox was inroduced into Tasmania, but the consequences are similar to other 'native' environments. Not sure I would agree that Tasmania's ecosystem would differ that much from comparable isolated regions of Ireland, eg Connemara, Donegal, Kerry etc. I would imagine that foxes in Hobart are pretty similar to most other urban environments?

Agree rabbits and rodents are also on the list of local problems, but drought and intensive monoculture farming are probably having more impact?

Sonnenblumen

Cabaal wrote: »

Completely unrelated to this thread, a fox is a invasive species to that part of the work in much the same fashion as rabbits are

So your point is...well completely pointless

As mentioned above cats also have massively affected that part of the world, I guess we should also kill any loose cats in Ireland and also restrict ownership of them due to the massive amount of wildlife they kill

On the contrary your point is naieve in that it ignores the damage caused by the foxes etc irrespective of origin. As for cats, well most are domesticated and well catered for. AFAIK wild cats are culled? Besides why are you and others attempting to railroad the focus off topic? If you have an alternative view/concern, start a kitty thread!

The Sweeper

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Of course the fox was inroduced into Tasmania, but the consequences are similar to other 'native' environments. Not sure I would agree that Tasmania's ecosystem would differ that much from comparable isolated regions of Ireland, eg Connemara, Donegal, Kerry etc. I would imagine that foxes in Hobart are pretty similar to most other urban environments?

Agree rabbits and rodents are also on the list of local problems, but drought and intensive monoculture farming are probably having more impact?

Well, Australia/Tasmania are now dealing with various introduced species problems through culls. Trapping, shooting, hunting with dogs, posioning, introducing diseases, so on, so forth.

However, culling native animals is now illegal.

A good comparison for Australia versus Ireland and the fox, as opposed to the fox in Oz, would be the possum. Possums are a native animal that, in a suburban environment, can become a real pest. People feed them, and they scavenge the environment we generate - if it's not the bins, it's the petfood; if it's not the petfood, it's the plants in the garden. They can get into the roof of your house to nest, and they'll pretty much wreck the place up there.

You can't shoot them or poison them; and if you trap them to relocate them it's tantamount to a death sentence because they're highly territorial and you're releasing them into another possum's territory (and that's illegal too).

The solution with possums is to capitalise on their natural tendancies. Build possum boxes and have them nest away from your house instead of in your roof. Provide a food source away from the area you want to protect. Use outdoor lights at night to put them off coming into certain spaces. There are spray deterrents you can also use to keep them away.

Education is important, but laws are the basis of how the possum issue is now controlled. Australia took a long time, relatively, to change its laws to protect its native animals - and a hell of a lot of damage was done - and is still being done - in the meantime. It looks like Ireland needs to start a campaign of education regarding the fox, to make the urban environment less attractive to them.

If it's not done large scale, then you're fighting a losing battle because I can only imagine that foxes will behave just like any other animal. If you remove an animal from an attractive territory, and make no further changes other than having removed the animal, it won't take long before another animal of the same species moves into that attractive territory.

Sonnenblumen

I visited Tasmania earlier this year where I spent some time in 2 quite remote National Parks (Freycinet and Cradle Mountain). Both are strictly supervised by Park Rangers, who can appear to strict animal and environment police.

Anyways, despite close monitoring, constant reminders, and signs everywhere advising vistors not to feed the animals, most of which appeared to be nocturnal. This had no effect as the accomodation areas where over run by a variety of night furry creatures mainly possums. In fact they were such a nuisance in Freycinet, pestering for food, squabbling with each another etc etc, people had to go indoors to avoid the rumpus.

Nothwithstanding that possums do what possums do in their local habitat, their behaviour reminded me more of rats. There was no evidence of any local predator, but I really do not see the point of protecting such an animal in any urbanised environment.

There were other ridiciulous examples where the authorities in urban areas, placed animal welfare ahead of people welfare. Quite shocking and contradictory.

Discodog

OP: To get back on topic what puzzles me is why you are going to such lengths to try & prove that foxes pose a danger to the residents of Ireland ?. You have to decide how your deal with your foxes & you came here for advice but it seems that your mind was already set.

If you have decided to kill, remove etc then surely the hunting forum would be a better place to gain advice. I personally find it disappointing that someone who works with nature, all day long, cannot find a bit of space & tolerance for a work of nature. As gardeners we learn how to adapt nature to suit out purpose for example in the way that we adapt plants.

You will have more fox encounters. If you kill these then others will take their place. You don't have to like them but maybe you could ignore or tolerate them & accept that have a right to exist. Could it be that you want to prove that they pose a risk in order to justify killing them ?. If so I would say that you have failed.

gary29428

I think this thread has a few pro/anti bloodsport vibes running through it, the origional post was looking for advice and not a discusion about what foxes may or may not be doing. I have a huge amount of experience dealing with problem foxes (mainly in a non-urban environment) and my advice is get rid. They are a menice and classed as vermin by the wildlfe act in this country, that means they are affored no class of protection under the law. My advice is see if you can contact anybody from a local gun club, they generally would have a lot experience dealing with foxes.

bette

Phone the SPCA, simple as! I did that recently when a ferret ran into the house. I trapped it with a bird cage and the chap was around in about 20 minutes!

Cabaal

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

On the contrary your point is naieve in that it ignores the damage caused by the foxes etc irrespective of origin. As for cats, well most are domesticated and well catered for. AFAIK wild cats are culled? Besides why are you and others attempting to railroad the focus off topic? If you have an alternative view/concern, start a kitty thread!

First off, I'd remind you to not back seat mod

Second off, simply giving an example of an animal that has a massive affect on the enviroment yet thousands of people own, look after them and feed them (a cat).

Comparing fox's in Tasmania to fox's in Ireland it pointless and s an attempt to mislead people

Discodog

gary29428 wrote: »

I think this thread has a few pro/anti bloodsport vibes running through it, the origional post was looking for advice and not a discusion about what foxes may or may not be doing. I have a huge amount of experience dealing with problem foxes (mainly in a non-urban environment) and my advice is get rid. They are a menice and classed as vermin by the wildlfe act in this country, that means they are affored no class of protection under the law. My advice is see if you can contact anybody from a local gun club, they generally would have a lot experience dealing with foxes.

So you would clearly be pro bloodsports & you are also deciding the worth of foxes - hardly a measured independent view. Vermin is a great catch all phrase that is rolled out by those who derive pleasure from killing wildlife. An animal is only "vermin" because we have dictated so. It does not mean that "vermin" have no value in the ecosystem. I have never met a "problem" fox. Do you only kill "problem foxes" or any fox that happens to get in your sights ?.

I wonder which poses the most potential danger, an urban fox or a guy with a rifle in an urban environment ?.

Qualitymark

Getting back to the point of the thread (which might get interesting answers in the Animal and Pet Issues forum, by the way), what about installing some motion-sensitive sprinklers? These go on automatically if they sense an animal moving near them, and normally solve the problem of cats using your garden as a loo - I suspect they'd do the same for foxes.

gary29428

Discodog, I ain't going to rise to it so don't waste your time. Tell the lad who lost all 22 of his laying hens last week that the fox was not a "problem", he ate the heads off 7 and left the rest. Anyway like I said I take care of problem foxs for people and that one ain't a problem any more...

Sonnenblumen

Cabaal wrote: »

First off, I'd remind you to not back seat mod

Second off, simply giving an example of an animal that has a massive affect on the enviroment yet thousands of people own, look after them and feed them (a cat).

Comparing fox's in Tasmania to fox's in Ireland it pointless and s an attempt to mislead people

I only wish I could understand what point(s) you're trying to make?:(

Most posters seem to have a better grasp of why I started this thread, and dare I say again, even modest research will reveal that fundamental fox behaviour is quite similar.

Sonnenblumen

gary29428 wrote: »

Discodog, I ain't going to rise to it so don't waste your time. Tell the lad who lost all 22 of his laying hens last week that the fox was not a "problem", he ate the heads off 7 and left the rest. Anyway like I said I take care of problem foxs for people and that one ain't a problem any more...

I agree and it is just simply ridiculous that somehow some 'utopian types' are reluctant to accept the type of damage foxes can cause and with great regularity and refuse to confront the issues.

Perhaps there are some who have never experienced any problems with foxes, and most, believe foxes to be cheerful creatures. I have no doubt that the latter will change especially as foxes encroach more on urban environments.

CJhaughey

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

I agree and it is just simply ridiculous that somehow some 'utopian types' are reluctant to accept the type of damage foxes can cause and with great regularity and refuse to confront the issues.

Perhaps there are some who have never experienced any problems with foxes, and most, believe foxes to be cheerful creatures. I have no doubt that the latter will change especially as foxes encroach more on urban environments.

I couldn't agree more.
Fantastic Mr Fox is a great book and story but once you decide to keep chickens then foxes become a problem.
I don't see what the problem with destroying them is, they aren't endangered by any stretch of the imagination.

Discodog

gary29428 wrote: »

Discodog, I ain't going to rise to it so don't waste your time. Tell the lad who lost all 22 of his laying hens last week that the fox was not a "problem", he ate the heads off 7 and left the rest. Anyway like I said I take care of problem foxs for people and that one ain't a problem any more...

As has been previously posted hens are safe provided you take proper precautions. That fox may no longer be a problem but another one will soon fill the territory gap. If the hens were properly secured then the fox would of sought food elsewhere. So, apart from personal satisfaction, shooting it achieved nothing.

Sonnen: Good to see that you are not offering to construct wildlife gardens on your site !

Sonnenblumen

Fodda

are you suggesting that all wild creatures (animals, vermin and bugs?) should be protected and allowed to roam free wherever?

Born free might be fine but surely we need to draw a line somewhere (for many reasons)?

I like animals but especially within urban environments, I will always put human welfare ahead of animal (all types) welfare.

I do not believe that the animal world will be dramatically affected by limiting the number of scavenging animals in built up areas? In fact the scavenging of domestic waste is probably distorting the otherwise natural order of the traditional foodchain and this is probably leading to a multiplier effect of certain species and other consequences?

Sonnenblumen

Cabaal wrote: »

Comparing fox's in Tasmania to fox's in Ireland it pointless and s an attempt to mislead people

A serious risk for Irish Gardens is of course the presence of fox faeces. You can obviously distinguish between Tasmanian fox faeces and the Irish equivalent?

The only difference I can discover, is that in Tasmania, a fox is more likely to be shot on sight and anyone seen to be encouraging/feeding foxes will be sanctioned by the Authorities.

Discodog

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Recently I came across an unusual dilemma in a sub-urban setting. Of great concern is the potential health hazard of fox faeces in the garden and a real fear of the very young visiting grandchildren being attacked by the foxes (this fear has come about by the recent fox attack of a baby in the UK).
What does one do? Be vigilent and wait to allow foxes to grow, wean and disperse?

So 4 pages later you are still convinced that foxes may attack children & spread disease via their faeces. You have gone to considerable lengths to try & prove the second point. By now the cubs will be well on the way to independence.

So what do you plan to do ?. Fox-proof fence the entire garden or get Gary to stay the night with his gun ?. If the children see a fox will you tell them that it is dangerous ?. You almost certainly had foxes visiting before this vixen. You will get a succession of new foxes. There are a part of life whether you like it or not & will be here long after you have gone.

Qualitymark has offered the closest to a possible solution. I would not use sprinklers but PIR detectors linked to sound & light could be a deterrent.

Qualitymark

I actually did keep chickens for 10 or 12 years, and only once had a problem with a fox. The hens had a large, secure run, and lived there most of the time, but every now and again I'd let them out for a mooch around the garden. One day a fox came in and attempted to take one of the hens. I drove it off, but the poor old hen died of a heart attack in the night - hens are delicate souls.

It's perfectly understandable that you don't want fox spraint in your garden, OP - I don't like it much when our local foxes poo in my garden and my dog rolls lovingly in it.

If I minded it terribly, I'd definitely get some sprinklers with a motion-detector that I could switch off during the day (or evening parties), and switch on overnight. No wild animal, and indeed few tame animals either, like to do their toileting while being randomly being sprayed with water.

flutered

i.m.o. this thread seems to suggest that anyone that is anti fox is wrong, and whoever likes them is right, ah well if it would be so simple, a neighbour lost 16 sheep and 40 lambs to foxes some time ago, the ewes were attacked while lambing, lambs savaged while asleep.

Discodog

It's not a case of being pro or anti fox. The original thread was about the threat posed to children by foxes. It has now extended into the OP saying that foxes pose a serious risk to Irish gardens & presumably gardeners.

In many years of living in the countryside, rescuing wildlife & gardening I have never heard this. The only reference posted is from Tasmania. As a gardener I am well aware of Tetanus but I have never heard anyone referring to fox pooh until this thread.

I would have to wonder how any farmer could lose 56 animals to foxes & not act. There is no way that 56 were killed at once. If foxes were killing 56 animal per night we would all be hunting foxes. My local farmer/neighbour has just raised lambs. Both I & he have seen foxes in the same field as the sheep but no animals have been lost. In fact I don't know of anyone in my village who shoot foxes & most have livestock.

I will keep returning to the point that you cannot & will not eradicate foxes so why not live with them.

Qualitymark

Discodog wrote: »

you cannot & will not eradicate foxes so why not live with them.

Absolutely true, and foxes kill many mice and rats, which will breed like crazy without foxes to keep their numbers down.

In the very rare cases where foxes do attack livestock, it's often a problem caused by humans - if foxes are driven from an area where they've known where to find their normal supply of rodents, earthworms, etc, they may turn in desperation to other sources of food. Where there's an established group of foxes living in territory they know well, they tend to live on rodents and earthworms, as I understand it. (Don't ask me for a source for this - it's a vague memory of reports by naturalists.)