Luas Red Line (Junkie & Wino Bus)

mikemac

Indeed, a lot of people involved in assaults and stabbings will have a string of convictions behind them, starting when they were young.
No stranger to the children's court on small stupid things like shoplifting and stealing bikes or not paying fares but it gets more and more serious until someone gets badly hurt.
The cycle needs to be stopped while they are young

Whoh, that's a post for another thread, going off topic

BenShermin

I notice Dublin Bus have started to put up advertisements on fare evasion. The new ads go along the lines of "the difference between €1.15 and €1.60 could be the standard fare of €50". If that's the case what's the difference between a fake DFSA pass and a real one:rolleyes:? It sure as **** isn't a €50 fine!!

During the boom times the minister in charge of the Department of Social and Family affairs had an easy job. Money was just thrown at at problems to sugarcoat them in a time when the white collars of society were too busy with low taxes and easy credit to give a ****e about the solitary beggar on the Ha'penny bridge of a cold but sunny celtic tiger morning. But hey, many a white collar gent threw a few €2 coins into McDonald's cups of down and outs to act like they gave a damn without having to volunteer for the Simon community. Both the Government and many of us normal workers threw money at a seemingly small homeless problem.

A sober walk through Dublin City at 1am back in the early noughties showed the beginings of a true problem for our city. So called down and outs went to the eateries of middle class drunkards. Sometimes the foreign fast food clerk handed as much as a €50 note to the down and out in exchange for the the coin content of his McDonald's cup. Couple that €50 that some earned every night along with dole payments from the Government and you had the reciepe for a serious problem if a recession was ever to happen.

Nowadays the McDonald's cups are remaining empty after the coffee is gone, the down and outs have evolved into beings that search for money. The annoyance of being asked for spare change 20 times a day has replaced the harmless beggar with the cup. A black market has fueled this more agressive beggar with the likes of €4 ciggarette packs, dodgy DFSA passes and cheap hash for the 78A bus journey from the drug rehab clinic at Cherry Orchard to the herion dealers off Thomas Street. All law abiding public transport users are encountering uncomfortable and sometimes very scary situations at the hands of Dublin's newly evolved down and outs.

I've no idea as to an overall solution to the problem. In the short term though the DFSA and the DoT need to work together to totally scrap the free travel scheme to anybody under the age of 66. Both departments could do this when the overall smart card is issued.

The minister for children needs to make it easier for social workers to put children into foster homes when their real parents are using illigal drugs. If this doesn't happen we'll just end up with thousands of children who want to grow up to be just like mammy and daddy.

The new laws being implimented on begging are a good start but let's face it, putting every junkie into jail will just be a waste of Garda time and will cost on taxes. Instead the minister for Justice needs to allow for tougher sentences for any kind of drug dealing. 25 years in jail should be the target. He has to make it look like a very risky enterprise to get involved in.

Finally, the majority of Irish people need to stand up to the minority every single day. Too many ordinary people are switching to cars because of junkies on buses, too many people still give beggars money on the street. There's no way I'm giving up my cheap 78A commute in favour of a car that will cripple me in tax and insurance, and I'd rather tell a junkie to f*** off than give him even two cent on the street.

We could get OUR city back, but I do fear that it's gone forever:(.

Terrontress

eia340600 wrote: »

I have been to London many times and know that when you walk into an underground station outside of peak time your risking, at the your wallet.

You may fear for your wallet but you are paranoid and wrong to do so.

Each London Underground station has a member of staff working the gates, keeping and eye on things. There is also active cctv monitoring throughout the network. Couple this with a dedicated transport police with powers of arrest and they come down very hard on begging and loitering never mind thefts of wallet. The Oyster has all but eradicated ticket touting.

I'd be interested to know why you've said what you have.

efb

BenShermin wrote: »

I notice Dublin Bus have started to put up advertisements on fare evasion. The new ads go along the lines of "the difference between €1.15 and €1.60 could be the standard fare of €50". If that's the case what's the difference between a fake DFSA pass and a real one:rolleyes:? It sure as **** isn't a €50 fine!!

During the boom times the minister in charge of the Department of Social and Family affairs had an easy job. Money was just thrown at at problems to sugarcoat them in a time when the white collars of society were too busy with low taxes and easy credit to give a ****e about the solitary beggar on the Ha'penny bridge of a cold but sunny celtic tiger morning. But hey, many a white collar gent threw a few €2 coins into McDonald's cups of down and outs to act like they gave a damn without having to volunteer for the Simon community. Both the Government and many of us normal workers threw money at a seemingly small homeless problem.

A sober walk through Dublin City at 1am back in the early noughties showed the beginings of a true problem for our city. So called down and outs went to the eateries of middle class drunkards. Sometimes the foreign fast food clerk handed as much as a €50 note to the down and out in exchange for the the coin content of his McDonald's cup. Couple that €50 that some earned every night along with dole payments from the Government and you had the reciepe for a serious problem if a recession was ever to happen.

Nowadays the McDonald's cups are remaining empty after the coffee is gone, the down and outs have evolved into beings that search for money. The annoyance of being asked for spare change 20 times a day has replaced the harmless beggar with the cup. A black market has fueled this more agressive beggar with the likes of €4 ciggarette packs, dodgy DFSA passes and cheap hash for the 78A bus journey from the drug rehab clinic at Cherry Orchard to the herion dealers off Thomas Street. All law abiding public transport users are encountering uncomfortable and sometimes very scary situations at the hands of Dublin's newly evolved down and outs.

I've no idea as to an overall solution to the problem. In the short term though the DFSA and the DoT need to work together to totally scrap the free travel scheme to anybody under the age of 66. Both departments could do this when the overall smart card is issued.

The minister for children needs to make it easier for social workers to put children into foster homes when their real parents are using illigal drugs. If this doesn't happen we'll just end up with thousands of children who want to grow up to be just like mammy and daddy.

The new laws being implimented on begging are a good start but let's face it, putting every junkie into jail will just be a waste of Garda time and will cost on taxes. Instead the minister for Justice needs to allow for tougher sentences for any kind of drug dealing. 25 years in jail should be the target. He has to make it look like a very risky enterprise to get involved in.

Finally, the majority of Irish people need to stand up to the minority every single day. Too many ordinary people are switching to cars because of junkies on buses, too many people still give beggars money on the street. There's no way I'm giving up my cheap 78A commute in favour of a car that will cripple me in tax and insurance, and I'd rather tell a junkie to f*** off than give him even two cent on the street.

We could get OUR city back, but I do fear that it's gone forever:(.

Its a dark day in Gotham, if only we had THE COON!

trellheim

Indeed, moving DSFA passes to a DB smartcard seems the way to go.

The easiest way to force this is to remove all non-substantiated subvention { i.e. don't let DB or Veolia claim for the grants unless they have receipts ! }

AlekSmart

Indeed, moving DSFA passes to a DB smartcard seems the way to go.

Indeed Trelheim,this was one of the very first excercises which Dublin Bus brought forward in the infancy of the Smart Card project.

The company`s reasoning was that the Social Welfare Pass holders presented a comprehensive and already collated passenger grouping which would lend itself to fast and accurate data collection from any such test.

I understand that,at the time,the Department of Social Welfare demurred as the cost of the Plastic Smart card would have amounted to 65c per person,a charge which not unreasonably,Dublin Bus felt should be borne by the holder.

The Department of SW were adamant that it would not pay the 65c and neither would it ask it`s "customers" to pay it so the smart-pass suggestion was deemed far too incredible for the (Southern)Irish population.

It also needs to be recognized that the current Smart-Card roll out has been significantly delayed by the 11th hour decision of the Department of Social Protection to participate in it.

The Department of Social Welfare/Protections prevarication on the issue had forced the Integrated Ticketing Implimentation Group to proceed on the assumption that the Social Welfare pass would remain a seperate item.

It needs to be recalled that many of the highest and mightiest of the Senior Civil Servants involved in this shambles have,in the interim, retired on quite attractive terms indeed,some even meriting bonus payments.

But Trelheim,and others,are quite correct,full withdrawal and subsequent re-application and reissue is now the only way to get the Free Travel Scheme monster back in it`s cage.

If this is not forthcoming then the Free Travel Scheme will eventually collapse under the weight of it`s own duplication and uncontrolled expansion.

Hawk Wing 2

feelingstressed wrote: »

So, so true
If you hold your hands up and give your name and address you get a fine.
Act aggressively and swear at the ticket collector and you'll be put off at the next stop, no fine.
And then you get the next tram

I'd guess most of those guards are attending court and are going home, always see loads of them aswell getting on at Hueston

_Kaiser_

The cause of all of the problems described in this thread is the wave of touchy-feely, pc-ness that spread into this country over the last 15/20 years, which in turn led to a general consenus that people can no longer take action for themselves without some sort of social/state validation.

Think about it.. there have always been scumbags, and so-called "recreational" drugs have been around a long time too, but it's only in the last 15 years or so that things have gotten significantly worse.


So why is that (maybe I should cross post this in Humanities)...


- Well first off, the parents who are "raising" this latest generation of scum have been conditioned to believe that it's inappropriate (potentially "abusive") to discipline your child anymore.

I grew up in the 80's and back in those days there was nothing wrong with a parent shouting at/grounding/occasionally slapping their misbehaving child, and also that if another parent came to the door to complain (or took action themselves) you'd be in for worse!

Now, whilst I thus did get the occasional slap (or wooden spoon if my mother was close to it), it certainly didn't scar me for life but what it DID do is teach me a healthy respect for my parents, others and others property - how many times nowadays for example do you see someone slam a door or trolley into someone's car and then just walk off?


- The rise of the "nanny state" has left the majority believing that it's now perfectly OK and acceptable for someone else to do everything for you and that you no longer have to take any personal responsibility for your decisions or actions.
Problems with the kids? That's what the schools are for, Caught speeding? Ah sure don't they have little else to be doing... etc etc

Of course the problem with this "can't someone else do it" mentality is that in the end NOTHING gets done, and NO ONE is responsible.

Don't believe me? Take a look at our economic woes.. we have a political party and banking elite that squandered the biggest boom this country will ever see, and not ONE of them has been brought to account.

What do the rest of us do? Whinge about it in the pubs and on boards like this, but take actual ACTION? Of course not.. "can't someone else do it?"


The end result of all this is socially approved anarchy where scumbags are free to harass and intimidate others simply because it might "damage" them to be told "no", and where the rest of the population are little more than meek sheep afraid to put their head up in case they might have to take some responsibility.

So of course the country will suffer.. socially at the hands of these scumbags, politically at the hand of corrupt, lazy politicians, and ultimately that's all we have left as anyone who has ANY sense, and the means to do so, leaves this cesspool to those who created it.

Unfortunately until we as a nation realise that this sort of behaviour is a result of our own actions - more accurately inaction - then nothing will change.. in fact it'll only get worse!

shamwari

Recently, I had to use the Luas to visit my mother who was a patient in St James hospital. On the very first day I used the Luas, this is what I experienced.

1. Arrived at the ticket machine in Lwr Abbey St to purchase a return ticket to ST James. As I was putting my coins into the machine, a tracksuit wearing a baseball cap came over and asked me the usual "..anee spayer chainge budd?" The request was politely declined.

2. Whilst waiting for my Luas, one arrived at the platform opposite where another tracksuit and baseball cap decamped from it. He hocked and spat all the way up the length of the platform before crossing over onto my platform, and then started begging the whole way up along it. Nice of him to use public transport in order to scrounge a few quid, and I bet he didn't bother his ass to purchase a ticket either.

3. On the Luas, things got a whole lot worse. I got a seat, and in the four seats on the opposite side sat a tracksuited couple french kissing (her dentalware resembled a rusty broken fence), and one of the two seat opposite sat a large hold all belonging to the male tracksuit. The window seat was free. An old lady soon walked up the carriage and saw the vacant seat. She made eye contact directly with these two, looked at the bag and then at the vacant seat, and then looked back at the two. Neither had the decency to move the bag as the lady was intimating in order to her sit down. The old lady took the initiative and moved the bag herself, at which point the mail track suit called her something foul and utterly unrepeatable. He then threatened her with what he would do to her if she touched the bag again. The lady never opened her mouth and remained dignified throughout, only to get off at the next stop. A few lads and I made eye contact with each other and I could see that all of us wanted to give this scroat a piece of our minds. I got off at James and left this disgraceful pair to themselves.

4. Later on, I left James to get the Luas back to Connolly. On the platform opposite sat several youngsters around 20 years old. One of these was utterly motionless and statue like, clutching a can of red bull between her knees. A male tracksuit came over with a goodie bag from the chipper, and pleaded with her that she needed to eat something. He then shoved a piece of fish into her face, but her mouth was closed, and all he succeeded in doing was smearing the fish all over her face. Just then their Luas came in, and both he a few others present lifted the comatose girl onto the Luas and it left.

5. My Luas came in and I boarded it near the front behind the driver. I noticed that there was a large crowd near the back and nobody up front, with plenty of seats available. I was about to sit down when I realised why it was so empty: there clearly had been a fight of some sort, and there was broken glass and plenty of blood about. I got up and joined everyone else at the back, who were strangely quiet :rolleyes: Thankfully, I got to Connolly unscathed but bloody worried.

I am in the city centre fairly regularly, and I have noticed a steady and indeed massive decline in the area over the last 18 months or so. It is nothing to do with the Luas, but there is a growing number of people like those I have mentioned above, who walk around most of the day either drunk or under narcotic influences (or both). They act with impunity and nobody seems to care, or want to do anything about it. The main thoroughfare of Dublin has practically been taken over by them. As is the boardwalk, and to a lesser extent, Customs House quay. I mean, if this were going on in a leafy suburb, or Grafton St, or the IFSC, would the same level of ambivalence or tolerance be shown?

The fact that this antisocial malevolence is manifesting itself on the Luas is disgraceful. But the biggest disgrace is that many parts of the city is similarly affected, and nobody who could / should be doing something about it is actually doing that.

Oh, and that was the last time I used the Luas. I made do with the 123 bus instead.

Judgement Day

shamwari - sounds like you had a very unpleasant experience and I trust you wrote to the RPA and Veoila about it as well as posting here? Perhaps a copy letter/email to Noel Dempsey too?

Contact RPA By Email
Email: info@rpa.ie

RPA Main Reception (General Enquiries)
01 646 3400

Freepost
Railway Procurement Agency
Parkgate Business Centre
Parkgate Street
Dublin 8

---

Veolia Transport Ireland Ltd.,
Red Cow Roundabout Naas Road,
Clondalkin,
Dublin 22

Phone: (01) 461 49 10
info@veolia-transport.ie

murphaph

This is why I will not move back to Ireland to rear my kids there. My GF (German) is deluded that Ireland is a "nice place" but that's because when we visit there I always have the use of a car and I know how to avoid a bad area...but if we were to move there it would mean her coming into contact with that sort of carry on and I don't want to expose her to the dregs of Irish society: the previous poster is right...a PC bleeding heart liberal agenda has led to a situation where society is paralysed and scumbags are not just belted over the head with a baton by a 6' tall brick sh!thouse culchie Garda, which is EXACTLY what should happen to them.

Drugs are heavily responsible for all this though, make no mistake. In Dublin a lot of people still don't realise how bad the heroin problem is (and with it all sorts of other legal and illegal drugs that heroin addicts take to "take the edge off" etc.). The sentence for ANY for of drug dealing (even by addicted users) should be 20 years in prison with NO POSSIBILITY of early release. Drugs alone are responsible for something like 70% of crime in Dublin: it would be money well spent to build a few large prisons in the middle of nowhere with limited visiting and start throwing drug dealers in them for a long time. It would take a while but eventually the message would sink in that getting involved in drugs WILL lead to a long spell in prison. At present there simply is NO STRATEGY to tackle the heroin problem in Ireland, and so it's getting worse.

Most people in Ireland are decent, hard-working etc. so there's no good reason that a minority can terrorise the rest of us.

Judgement Day

murphaph - I couldn't agree more with your post. I made the romantic mistake of coming back to the 'Land of Saints & Scholars' to start a family, even though I knew it was more myth than reality. Keep well clear. I remember as far back as the early 1980s listening to the Pat Kenny radio show and thinking that Ireland was going to be an awful country to grow old in and how right I was. Back then the same pussy footing drivel about dealing with the drugs problem was still being talked about and look where that has led. If one thinks about it you even have to have a degree of pity for the drug dealers etc. today, as many of them were not even born then and grew up in a culture of government laissez faire where there was an acceptable level of poverty and crime. This problem should have been cracked down on decades ago - serious criminals should be interned without trial, anybody bringing drugs into the country should receive 20 years hard labour with no remission and life imprisonment for drug barons with no remission - personally I would put them in front of a firing squad. It won't happen with our shower of useless, hand wringing, buck passing, politically correct politicians. I'm gone at the first available opportunity . Way off topic I'm afraid but the Luas problems and drugs and crime are so linked together.

shamwari

murphaph wrote: »

This is why I will not move back to Ireland to rear my kids there.......

Most people in Ireland are decent, hard-working etc. so there's no good reason that a minority can terrorise the rest of us.

I don't blame you staying where you are, particularly as the long term prospects for your family are probably better off there too. This country is heading into the abyss in more ways than one.

Judgement Day wrote: »

shamwari - sounds like you had a very unpleasant experience and I trust you wrote to the RPA and Veoila about it as well as posting here?

I went one better: I reported the old lady being threatended to the Gardai. I gave my name and address and told them I would identify the perpetrator if they could locate him from CCTV. However they wouldn't entertain my complaint because it had to come from the injured party.

I didn't bother with Veolia & the RPA because all I'm doing is reporting matters after the event. And I doubt there is much they can do if a small minority of their passengers are under the influence of one or more substances. Similar previous correspondence with Irish Rail was pointless, so I suppose its a case of once bitten, twice shy....!

mikemac

murphaph wrote: »

Drugs alone are responsible for something like 70% of crime in Dublin:

I'm interested to know if you are including common drugs like alcohol and tobacco here.
Cigarette smuggling is rife.
And Dublin or every town in Ireland has late night fights outside nightclubs and chippers fueled by alcohol. Leads to other crimes like domestic abuse or drink driving.
Something overlooked in the whole head shop debate or shouted down anyway

Are these drugs included in the 70% you've posted?

Nevyn

Buses haven't been the same from when they got rid of the conductor.
Plenty of times growing up I saw the conductor keeping an eye and chucking 'undesirables' off the bus or just being a general deterrent to scumbags of all ages.

Some route will run well with out them others they should be brougth back asap esp on double deckers where the driver has enough to be doing with out trying to keep an eye upstairs. Most of them already know what a joke the revolving court system is and that if they attack someone on a bus who tells them to stop their antisocial behaviour they will get away with it. We need proper transport police.

Jumpy

eia340600 wrote: »

I have been to London many times and know that when you walk into an underground station outside of peak time your risking, at the your wallet.

I used to live there. This is not the case. All trains and all platforms are on camera, there are emergency pull handles every 10 metres or so and they move along anyone causing trouble at any hour. They generally leave buskers though.
There is security all over the place.

Chinasea

You can do what you like in Ireland as long as you are menacing and have the uniform (tracksuit) to prove it. The rest of us just pay to prop these guys up.

Time to T N S = trap neuter spay

murphaph

feelingstressed wrote: »

I'm interested to know if you are including common drugs like alcohol and tobacco here.
Cigarette smuggling is rife.
And Dublin or every town in Ireland has late night fights outside nightclubs and chippers fueled by alcohol. Leads to other crimes like domestic abuse or drink driving.
Something overlooked in the whole head shop debate or shouted down anyway

Are these drugs included in the 70% you've posted?

No, but typically people aren't addicted to alcohol (there are alcoholics, but it is not the norm to become addicted to alcohol, even with regular use, whereas with heroin it is the norm to become strongly addicted) and tobacco addicts generally don't resort to crime to fuel their habit, so it's "their problem" so to speak.

Amtmann

BenShermin wrote: »

Finally, the majority of Irish people need to stand up to the minority every single day.

shamwari wrote:

A few lads and I made eye contact with each other and I could see that all of us wanted to give this scroat a piece of our minds. I got off at James and left this disgraceful pair to themselves.

It's all very well to say that the civilised should stand up to the track-suited barbarians, but shamwari's comment says a lot. All that most civilised people would do would be to exchange disapproving glances to each other in such a situation. Why? Because when choosing to get into an argument with scum (which is what the track-suit wearer was), you are potentially opening up the gates of hell. They are so uncouth and uncivilised that they are capable of anything, and unless you, as a regular joe, are willing to face the unpredictable consequences of standing up to an out and out scumbag, then you're better off just keeping quiet. Yes, I know that that is unfortunately part of the problem, but suppose shamwari had stood up to the scumbag on behalf of the woman and been viciously assaulted, could he have counted on aid from those other men with whom he had exchanged those disapproving glances? I don't think he could have.
These people, the scumbags in their tracksuits, have a completely different perception of the world to more urbane types. We simply cannot relate to one another. Certainly one of the reasons I left Dublin in 2003 and had a distinctly bad impression of the place was because of the brutishness that I saw every day there when living on the northside.

AlekSmart

Shamwari:

I reported the old lady being threatended to the Gardai. I gave my name and address and told them I would identify the perpetrator if they could locate him from CCTV. However they wouldn't entertain my complaint because it had to come from the injured party.

I didn't bother with Veolia & the RPA because all I'm doing is reporting matters after the event.

Thaedydal:

Buses haven't been the same from when they got rid of the conductor.
Plenty of times growing up I saw the conductor keeping an eye and chucking 'undesirables' off the bus or just being a general deterrent to scumbags of all ages.

Two interlinked quotes from different posts which I would like to address from a Busdrivers perspective.

The "after-the-event" element is most important as it reflects the vacuum curently existing in the Public Order on Public Transport field.

My own employer has invested millions of € in fitting it`s entire fleet with high quality,high resolution Digital CCTV equipment.
It actually is State-of-the Art in terms of quality and adaptibility.

I have little doubt but the RPA/Luas CCTV is of an equally high specification.

However I question the reasoning behind much of the current CCTV fad.
An experienced Busdriver can usually spot many "situations" in the delevopmental stage,long before the stack actually blows.

All of the Dublin Bus double deck fleet have some form of Upper Saloon monitoring,whether by means of a mirror based periscope or the more modern dedicated CCTV camera.

It is this active monitoring by the Busdriver which,I believe,requires improvement and prioritization if any real progress is to follow from the CCTV investment.

All too often however,the Drivers Monitor is blurred or non-functional or the periscope mirror glass is cracked or otherwise obscured.

This then leaves the Driver totally unaware of developments upstairs or at the rear of the bus.

In order to do my job properly I need to be aware of the dynamic of whats happeneing on the bus,how many are standing,who`s sitting where and much else besides.

Sadly,the management pre-occpation is with the RECORDING element of the CCTV,when post-incident,the footage will be downloaded and pored over in an attempt to detect and identify a miscreant or to confirm an on-bus incident.

From my personal perspective,I,as the Busdriver am in-charge of the Bus.
My passengers have paid their fare in the expectation that I will carry out my duties in an expeditious maner and I as a consequence have an expectation that my employer will enable me to do so.

We need to perhaps retreat a little from the absolute faith which many wish us to have in CCTV as a panacea to the worsening problems on Public Transport.

The actual solution is to empower both Staff and legitimate passengers to reclaim their usage of Public Transport as their right by virtue of their enforcement of,and compliance with,the few regulations of travel and the Law in general.

It might sound a bit hi-falutin,but as we are currently seeing with Luas,all the technology in the world is useless in the face of base savagery and ill-intent.

Zero Tolerance for anti-social behaviour should mean just that.

trellheim

Just a small one : when we mention specific instances here of bad behaviour on the LUAS last week I did seem to see a slightly higher instance of security - seems like lurking managers from RPA or Veolia. So do report specifics - time,date, station, incident. I have no idea how Veolia customer care is motivated but I'm positive that if it isn't reported then nothing will happen.

KD345

You would think reporting the incident would be the right thing to do, but at this stage I really do question if it's worth the bother. I have rang the Gardai before which did help, and have also tried the Luas contact number, but this doesn't work after 7pm. There is little point reporting these incidents the next day as the damage is done and there have probably been a few similar incidents since.

The other thing to remember, which has been mentioned here, is that the Veolia staff are fully aware of the problems. There is no shortage of customer service staff working on the Luas, and I'm sure the drivers report the incidents too, so it really should not be up to the passenger, especially when there are numerous posters on platforms and trams telling us "we're being watched" by CCTV.

Even if the Gardai, customer service or security arrive and remove these junkies, they just get the next tram. These people don't fear anybody, they just shout abuse, cause a scene and know that nothing serious will happen them.

Yesterday morning a junkie girl boarded the tram and pushed her way through the area just behind the driver area. She fell onto a man who gave her a look of "do you mind" - this look was enough for her to start screaming all over the tram at this man. She moved down the carriage and continued her abuse to everyone. This was at 9am with young children on board. I'm actually surprised now to have a Luas journey without having to witness this type of behaviour either at stops or on the tram.

mikemac

This thread is on the red line

Does the Green line have any similar issues.
I don't get it so I don't know, I wouldn't think it was be as bad at all

yoyo

feelingstressed wrote: »

This thread is on the red line

Does the Green line have any similar issues.
I don't get it so I don't know, I wouldn't think it was be as bad at all

The green line is totally different clientelle, although I witnessed a bloke getting the sh!t kicked out of him on the dundrum platform, never seen that violence on the red line!

Nick

foggy_lad

Drivers should report all incidents but it could happen that they are discouraged from doing so as it might reflect badly on the service. Also at heuston station one Saturday there was only one out of the three emergency call buttons working obviously damaged by scumbags to stop genuine passengers from reporting them. The customer care line only operates office hours and I think from experience the cctv monitoring is only done as and when someone presses an emergency call button. So there is no protection offered to customers by veolia.

Nevyn

AlekSmart the thing is your driving, yes you can check your camera and periscope alond with the rest of you mirrors but your still driving, if something kicks off and your doing through a busy intersection you cant' stop the bus right away, best you can do is maybe hit an automated warning, and then eventually pull over while you radio for assitance which could be a very very long time coming and in the mean time they get off the bus.

As for the cameras, are all of the ones in the current dublin bus fleet finally real?
How good are they in terms of a good visual identifitcation?
And even if that is gotten it is sod all for the garda to go on and don't help in tracking people down.

If the cameras are up to scratch then why don't we seen in the courts as charges are taken?

You are right that the presence of the bus driver can go along way to a safer journey but alot just stay behind thier screens and drive. I have made complaints and had drivers shrug it off when I have had to move with my kids away from anti socail behaviour and there is no properly connection to the garda and the chances of charges being pressed is close to zero and scumbags know it.

trellheim

Here is what LUAS.ie has to say on Safety :

Stay Safe with Luas
Luas is a welcome part of Dublin's development. Let's make sure we all stay safe.





Safety Features
At Tram Stop
- CCTV
- Emergency Help Point located beside Ticket Machine. Press and speak directly to Luas control room.

On Board Tram
- CCTV
- Emergency Button beside door. Press and talk directly to tram driver.
- Emergency Handle beside door. Pulling this handle will bring the tram to a stop.
- Security Personnel*
- Luas Revenue Protection officers*
- Tram Driver
CCTV downloads can be requested from Luas Customer Care Freephone 1800 300 604 and info@luas.ie. Please note a request must be made immediately particularly if it relates to an incident. The type of information which is required is location, time, Luas line and date.
The issuing of CCTV follows guidelines as laid down under data protection legislation and in accordance with good practice.
* Luas Security and Revenue Protection Staff are not on board every tram.

the Passenger Charter has this :

Luas should provide you with the utmost levels of safety and security.



* All Stops and all trams are equipped with CCTV cameras.
* Customer Service Officers will be present throughout the day and until the last tram.

....

and

* Our Customer Care Centre and internet site will be available to assist you, to listen to you and to respond to your needs.
* We will answer all written comments within one week.
* Call Luas Customer Care Freefone on 1800 300 604
Open Monday – Friday 7am – 7pm and Saturday 10am – 2pm
* Email: info@luas.ie

There is no information given on the types of LUAS security, i.e. black STT vs orange/red Veolia, also whether STT are operating on behalf of RPA or Veolia

There is scandalously little information for passengers regarding their journey safety, and what to do if one of the incidents described in this thread occurs.

The one and only decent doc on either rpa.ie or luas.ie was

this

http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Health%20and%20Safety/Luas%20Safety%20Report%202009.pdf


Go figure.


I didn't know there was a

Gardaí representatives attend Veolia’s Safety Forum, a twice-yearly event at which antisocial behaviour issues are reviewed and discussed

where are the minutes from this ?

AlekSmart

AlekSmart the thing is your driving, yes you can check your camera and periscope alond with the rest of you mirrors but your still driving, if something kicks off and your doing through a busy intersection you cant' stop the bus right away, best you can do is maybe hit an automated warning

........

The key for me is to try as far as possible to ensure that the elements which kick-off do not get to that situation.
This is as much about observation as anything to do with Driving.
It is about the fullest interpretation of BUSdriving as opposed to simply Driving.

.......

As for the cameras, are all of the ones in the current dublin bus fleet finally real?
How good are they in terms of a good visual identifitcation?......

The CCTV system is indeed live and the quality is excellent.
Visual ID is of the highest order.

.....

You are right that the presence of the bus driver can go along way to a safer journey but alot just stay behind thier screens and drive. I have made complaints and had drivers shrug it off when I have had to move with my kids away from anti socail behaviour

Sadly,it could be argued that the decision to encapsulate the Busdriver was in fact sending a message to the Savages that with no Conductor or other Staff on board the Busdriver had no role to play in the progress of the Journey.

It has long been Company Policy that the Busdriver remain in the cab with the screen in place whilst requesting assistance via radio.
This policy,I suspect,has more to do with employers liability laws than anything else.

The Transport Operator is just that,it is not,and cannot be a law enforcement agency.
However I believe that putting a strong unambigious message out there concerning the abuse of it`s vehicles or staff has to be an integral part of the process.

At this stage however,we exist in a society which has in the main abandoned the Crime=Punishment principle and instead operates a far more vacuous arrangement which involves forensically trawling through each criminal act in order to first find an excuse for the behaviour before avoiding the imposition of any stricture which might be seen as excessively harsh.

This works wonders for psychology based careers and for other areas of academe involved in the science of criminology,but rather sadly it does very little for the "ordinary decent passenger" on our Public Transport Systems.

The key here is one word......FEAR.

Fear of violence.
Fear of litigation.
Fear of being regarded as overtly harsh.

It is perhaps worth debating the reality that the Fears outlined above simply do not exist for those committing these acts on a daily basis,but instead these fears now dictate the pace and content of our working and commuting life.

Nevyn

Having seen two 'Happy Slapping' incendents on the 39 and the 39N (in the last 18month) where 2/3 gentlemen started a row with a make passenger who didn't know them which esclated into a brawl which one of them was vidoeing on his phone,
and seen the driver pull over and state the garda were on the way and the perps record all they wanted and then get off the bus laughing and in the case of the 39N mooning it.

I don't think I have an unjustifed fear, there was also last monday the delightful mother with a 2 year old who was so out of it that she was rowing with the child's father on the top deck, to the extend of lashing out at him and the driver either didn't notice or care not even when she managed to let the child fall down the last two steps of the stairs.

And then the following Wednesday 3 'lads' on thier way in to get thier methadone roaring on the top deck, one of whom couldn't stand with the ammount of drink taken
and fell a top of other passengers and then tried to start a fight and this was early afternoon.

The only time in the last 6 months I have seen a driver intervine was one which I know to see who was new and from Sudan, he had no issue puling over, leaving the driver cab and coming up stairs to put a gang of teen in thier places and tell them to stop kicking seats and y'know what they did, but I am sure that as soon as he is briefed to company policy or has his first serious threath to him or his health that will stop.

Frankly I have two kids if I end up in an altercation and end up being charged with assulat and being fined or ending up with a suspended scentnce or worse not suspended then that effects me and my family to a point which I shouldn't have to take such actions.

Lets have transport police tied in with a proper metropolitan police and if needed conductors on certain route as well as inspectors.

foggy_lad

What use are transport police when the courts let the scumbags off because the state fails to proceed because the dpp knows there is nowhere to house these criminals so doesn't bother to pursue them?

mikemac

Thaedydal wrote: »

Lets have transport police tied in with a proper metropolitan police and if needed conductors on certain route as well as inspectors.

Yes to a transport police but nay to a metropolitan police.
I don't see why the cities get a new dedicated service while rural garda stations are being closed

Amtmann

feelingstressed wrote: »

Yes to a transport police but nay to a metropolitan police.
I don't see why the cities get a new dedicated service while rural garda stations are being closed

Ah come on now. It's a matter of population density.

AlekSmart

The only time in the last 6 months I have seen a driver intervine was one which I know to see who was new and from Sudan, he had no issue puling over, leaving the driver cab and coming up stairs to put a gang of teen in thier places and tell them to stop kicking seats and y'know what they did, but I am sure that as soon as he is briefed to company policy or has his first serious threath to him or his health that will stop.

Thaedydal,I`m not certain as to whether the Busdrivers ethnicity is relevant to his actions,or perhaps it may be an avenue worth exploring..IE: the relative disinterest of the native Irish in the destruction being wrought around them ?

Anyway,that`s for a different thread?

The company policy is absolutely clear on this situation.

The Driver must not leave the cab to intervene in any inter-passenger dispute.

From the company perspective that is a non-negotiable standing instruction.

If this mans local management become aware of him leaving the cab,he will be given "advice" on the Company`s Policy.

This procedure will formally record the company`s instruction to him individually and thus in the event of a future incident which might result in injury to the driver he will be On-His-Own in every sense.

This type of stuff is not of the Company`s making but rather it is necessary to protect it from all manner of subsequent claims at law.

The real issue,as many regular travellers note,is the total lack of interest or committment to addressing the ever worsening problem of violent and threateneing behaviour on Public Transport.

That problem cannot and will not be solved by the Bus or Tram Driver acting alone.

Nevyn

AlekSmart wrote: »

Thaedydal,I`m not certain as to whether the Busdrivers ethnicity is relevant to his actions,or perhaps it may be an avenue worth exploring..IE: the relative disinterest of the native Irish in the destruction being wrought around them ?

I would say his lack of being made numb or immune to such carry on, not being brought up where this is considered acceptable behaviour, then again neither was I.

AlekSmart wrote: »

The company policy is absolutely clear on this situation.

The Driver must not leave the cab to intervene in any inter-passenger dispute.

From the company perspective that is a non-negotiable standing instruction.

If this mans local management become aware of him leaving the cab,he will be given "advice" on the Company`s Policy.

This procedure will formally record the company`s instruction to him individually and thus in the event of a future incident which might result in injury to the driver he will be On-His-Own in every sense.

This type of stuff is not of the Company`s making but rather it is necessary to protect it from all manner of subsequent claims at law.

The real issue,as many regular travellers note,is the total lack of interest or committment to addressing the ever worsening problem of violent and threateneing behaviour on Public Transport.

So bus drivers are instructed to stay in the cab no matter what and not to put themsevles at risk not matter what is happening on the bus and they have very little if any duty of care to the passengers.

No wonder people don't feel safe when the person in charge of the bus is not in fact in charge of the bus.

AlekSmart wrote: »

That problem cannot and will not be solved by the Bus or Tram Driver acting alone.

Agreed but the retreat and lack of support and joined up services leaves scum to think they can do what they want on the buses and for the most part they do and get away with it.

AlekSmart

So bus drivers are instructed to stay in the cab no matter what and not to put themsevles at risk not matter what is happening on the bus and they have very little if any duty of care to the passengers.

The instruction to stay within the cab is,I would imagine,to ensure the Company is not exposed to claims both from a Staff member or a person alledging excessive use of force by a Staff member.

I don`t believe any company outside of the security industry would actually require Staff to get stuck-in to a flare up situation...the trick is in ensuring the flame is extinguished before the clients board...:)

As for duty of care,I would again suspect that the Duty of Care expected from a Busdriver in the performance of their duty would largely centre around their actual driving and controlling of the vehicle.

As we are now told in relation to seeking to have a passenger fold a buggy to facilitate a wheelchair user..."The Driver having made the request,has no control over the customers response".

Thats about it in a nutshell....I drive the Bus...It`s neither possible or desirable for me to simultaneously be a phsychoanalyst to my passengers.

The Bottom-Line is that all passengers boarding a Bus SHOULD be made fully aware of a set of Rules & Regulations governing their carriage...No ambiguity about it,either accept them or seek an alternative transport method.

murphaph

It was a sad day they decided that encapsulating a bus driver was the best course of action to tackle assault.

It was the wrong message to send out: Assaults on bus drivers should have just been met with 10 year jail sentences, not with plexiglas screens. The judges are all still way out of touch though, being chauffered in and out of the Four Courts from Dalkey or Killiney will do that though :mad:

The judges need to start imposing the maximum sentences and making a point of calling for more prison spaces.

Amtmann

murphaph wrote: »

This is why I will not move back to Ireland to rear my kids there. My GF (German) is deluded that Ireland is a "nice place" but that's because when we visit there I always have the use of a car and I know how to avoid a bad area...but if we were to move there it would mean her coming into contact with that sort of carry on and I don't want to expose her to the dregs of Irish society: the previous poster is right...a PC bleeding heart liberal agenda has led to a situation where society is paralysed and scumbags are not just belted over the head with a baton by a 6' tall brick sh!thouse culchie Garda, which is EXACTLY what should happen to them.

Drugs are heavily responsible for all this though, make no mistake. In Dublin a lot of people still don't realise how bad the heroin problem is (and with it all sorts of other legal and illegal drugs that heroin addicts take to "take the edge off" etc.). The sentence for ANY for of drug dealing (even by addicted users) should be 20 years in prison with NO POSSIBILITY of early release. Drugs alone are responsible for something like 70% of crime in Dublin: it would be money well spent to build a few large prisons in the middle of nowhere with limited visiting and start throwing drug dealers in them for a long time. It would take a while but eventually the message would sink in that getting involved in drugs WILL lead to a long spell in prison. At present there simply is NO STRATEGY to tackle the heroin problem in Ireland, and so it's getting worse.

Most people in Ireland are decent, hard-working etc. so there's no good reason that a minority can terrorise the rest of us.

You should watch this from 23:48 onwards.

AlekSmart

Well spotted Furet and some rather good stuff from 23:48 right enough.

I wonder if we`ll ever see a member of our judiciary emboldened enough to declare one way or the other on these topics ?

I doubt it.

Why,I wonder,are we advised by all and sundry that simplistic and somewhat basic responses are usually wrong and instead we need to spend a lot of time,energy and money understanding the mentality of the ill intentioned.....all very strange indeed.

HavingCrack

It would be easy enough to stamp out this sort of behaviour if Veolia and 'normal' LUAS users had the stomach for it. Is someone could organise a form of boycott of the Red Line Luas by non thuggish passengers I can guarantee you Veolia would start cleaning up the place overnight.

foggy_lad

I was on the green line today and what a massive difference there is between the two! There were few buggys as the mothers were at home with the children while fathers worked or shopped etc or the fathers babysit while mum shops s works. Much fewer single parent households and less younger kids on the Luas view were probably playing sports or doing some other paid for activity!

Nearly everyone carried a work I'd card pinned to them or around their necks but on red line the only work Id's are for Tesco or dunnes.

murphaph

foggy_lad wrote: »

Nearly everyone carried a work I'd card pinned to them or around their necks but on red line the only work Id's are for Tesco or dunnes.

So? I have nearly more respect for people from "deprived areas" who don't listen to the bullsh!t and go and work, be it in Dunnes, Tescos or PWC. I couldn't give a ah!t where they work, so long as they are not sponging off the state or harrassing people at Luas ticket machines. These "spaaaare change buuud" merchants are the problem, not decent people going to work in a supermarket.

I DO have a problem with career benefit thieves, wherever they may come from.

foggy_lad

murphaph wrote: »

So? I have nearly more respect for people from "deprived areas" who don't listen to the bullsh!t and go and work, be it in Dunnes, Tescos or PWC. I couldn't give a ah!t where they work, so long as they are not sponging off the state or harrassing people at Luas ticket machines. These "spaaaare change buuud" merchants are the problem, not decent people going to work in a supermarket.

I DO have a problem with career benefit thieves, wherever they may come from.

i didnt mean it to sound like that, what i meant was all the green line workers appeared to be blue/white collar while the red line workers are made up of lower paid general operative type workers, not that the work they do is any way less valuable or less important!

tatally agree about the carreer criminal benefit theives but there seems to be no real will in any department to sort this problem out.

sleepyman

foggy_lad wrote: »

i didnt mean it to sound like that, what i meant was all the green line workers appeared to be blue/white collar while the red line workers are made up of lower paid general operative type workers, not that the work they do is any way less valuable or less important!

tatally agree about the carreer criminal benefit theives but there seems to be no real will in any department to sort this problem out.

The green line is a middle class line- ranelagh, dundrum ,milltown , sandyford etc.The Red line is a working-class line-fatima mansions, bluebell etc.Wouldn't have a go at people for where they work but the drug addicts on the red line don't make for good viewing if you're a tourist.

steamengine

sleepyman wrote: »

The green line is a middle class line- ranelagh, dundrum ,milltown , sandyford etc.The Red line is a working-class line.

Maybe this old 17th century English saying has a relevance to the above !!!

The law locks up the hapless felon
who steals the goose from off the common,
but lets the greater felon loose
who steals the common from the goose.

BenShermin

HavingCrack wrote: »

It would be easy enough to stamp out this sort of behaviour if Veolia and 'normal' LUAS users had the stomach for it. Is someone could organise a form of boycott of the Red Line Luas by non thuggish passengers I can guarantee you Veolia would start cleaning up the place overnight.

It's a good idea, but why should people who actually work and pay taxes be forced to walk to and from work.

I think a much better action would be to have regular organsied "fare strikes", where every single passenger using the service refuses point blankly to purchase a ticket until the system is cleaned up of scum.

This happened a good bit in 2007 and 2008 on First Great Western's rail network in the UK when customers got pissed off with crowded and constantly late trains. I'm unsure about crowding but I do know that company is now one of the best in the UK in terms of punctuality:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/bristol/somerset/6269875.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/7191053.stm

The protests were very well organised in Britain even fake tickets were printed. I say we print fake DFSA passes instead and wear as much Nike as possible, a six pack of Dutch Gold is optional.

yoyo

sleepyman wrote: »

The green line is a middle class line- ranelagh, dundrum ,milltown , sandyford etc.The Red line is a working-class line-fatima mansions, bluebell etc.Wouldn't have a go at people for where they work but the drug addicts on the red line don't make for good viewing if you're a tourist.

Funnily enough its the green line which has the most fare dodgers statistically... And I would believe that aswell, from using both luas lines regularly I do see more people caught on the green than on the red line,

Nick

murphaph

yoyo wrote: »

Funnily enough its the green line which has the most fare dodgers statistically... And I would believe that aswell, from using both luas lines regularly I do see more people caught on the green than on the red line,

Nick

The point (of this thread) is that a large minority of the "patrons" of the Red Line are endowed with a free travel pass, so don't need to buy tickets. The taxpayer foots the bill for their trips to and from the methadone clinic etc. and at the same time gets to endure their sh!t on the tram to work.

yoyo

murphaph wrote: »

The point (of this thread) is that a large minority of the "patrons" of the Red Line are endowed with a free travel pass, so don't need to buy tickets. The taxpayer foots the bill for their trips to and from the methadone clinic etc. and at the same time gets to endure their sh!t on the tram to work.

Well I have a free travel pass. I don't visit any methadone clinics either as im not addicted to heroin :rolleyes:... I have a relative who goes to a very ultra posh private school on the green line and admits that most of the students dont bother paying the luas fare and just hop off when they see inspectors, as I said I use both lines regularly and do see more people on the green line get busted for having no ticket...

Nick

foggy_lad

murphaph wrote: »

The point (of this thread) is that a large minority of the "patrons" of the Red Line are endowed with a free travel pass, so don't need to buy tickets. The taxpayer foots the bill for their trips to and from the methadone clinic etc. and at the same time gets to endure their sh!t on the tram to work.

I thought it was more about the beggars drunks and drug addicts that seem to be drawn like flies to sh1t to the red line city stops? REgardless of whether they pay a fare or how they pay they are a menace but just because most of them have travel passes should the majority of free travel pass holders be made suffer??

murphaph

foggy_lad wrote: »

I thought it was more about the beggars drunks and drug addicts that seem to be drawn like flies to sh1t to the red line city stops? REgardless of whether they pay a fare or how they pay they are a menace but just because most of them have travel passes should the majority of free travel pass holders be made suffer??

Sadly the free travel pass scheme is a joke. It doesn't exist here...if you're unemployed in Berlin you can buy a reduced price ticket, BUT you MUST still buy a ticket. People over 65 can BUY a reduced price ticket, but NO FREE PASS! This instills a sense of fairness amongst the likes of me, who must pay full fair (€72 a month).

I think Ireland should scrap the free travel pass and bring in reduced fares attached to a MODERN, non-transferable ID system. The free travel pass is being abused and forged all over the place and there's not a damn thing the operators can do about it: The Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Department of Transport together with the Department of Finance need to solve this issue, and it is a big issue.

I'm sure the likes of 'yoyo' wouldn't mind paying for a reduced price ticket, IF they knew the junkies and winos would be kicked off for not having one.