Luas Red Line (Junkie & Wino Bus)

The Big Red Button

I regularly travel on the red line, usually anywhere between the Point and Heuston Station, at all times of the day and night.

I suppose I've been lucky in that I've never experienced any hassle. I see the odd junkie, but they've never hassled me in any way, and I've certainly never seen anyone shooting up on the Luas! :eek: If I'm ever waiting at the Abbey Street or Busarus stops, I sometimes get people asking me for spare change etc, I just politely say no and they've never bothered me after that.

It depends on your level of sensitivity to these things I suppose ... the presence of junkies and winos in itself doesn't really bother me, as long as I don't feel my safety is being threatened.

3. On the Luas, things got a whole lot worse. I got a seat, and in the four seats on the opposite side sat a tracksuited couple french kissing (her dentalware resembled a rusty broken fence), and one of the two seat opposite sat a large hold all belonging to the male tracksuit. The window seat was free. An old lady soon walked up the carriage and saw the vacant seat. She made eye contact directly with these two, looked at the bag and then at the vacant seat, and then looked back at the two. Neither had the decency to move the bag as the lady was intimating in order to her sit down. The old lady took the initiative and moved the bag herself, at which point the mail track suit called her something foul and utterly unrepeatable. He then threatened her with what he would do to her if she touched the bag again. The lady never opened her mouth and remained dignified throughout, only to get off at the next stop. A few lads and I made eye contact with each other and I could see that all of us wanted to give this scroat a piece of our minds. I got off at James and left this disgraceful pair to themselves.

Shamwari it's a pity that you had so many bad experiences the one day you used the Luas. However just to comment on this: touching someone else's property isn't clever at the best of times. For the woman to move the bag of, by the sounds of it, two very obvious scumbags was just pure stupidity. I'm not saying she deserved what she got, but come on, she could have at least asked them to move it instead of picking it up herself.

Also, it's a pity none of the other passengers present would offer her their seat, thus avoiding the whole incident.

AlekSmart

For the woman to move the bag of, by the sounds of it, two very obvious scumbags was just pure stupidity. I'm not saying she deserved what she got, but come on, she could have at least asked them to move it instead of picking it up herself.

There we have it so,we as a people will usually veer back to find-an-excuse mode,which will always tend to favour the miscreant rather than the person who simply wishes the system to be functional.

As murphaph might notice if one is on German public transport and a similar situation arises one will hear the term "Excuse Me" repeated quite often as people move about and take seats etc.....In Ireland it`ll usually be "I`m Sorry".......that little difference of terminology encompasses a huge amount of behavioural attitude difference !

foggy_lad

murphaph wrote: »

Sadly the free travel pass scheme is a joke. It doesn't exist here...if you're unemployed in Berlin you can buy a reduced price ticket, BUT you MUST still buy a ticket. People over 65 can BUY a reduced price ticket, but NO FREE PASS! This instills a sense of fairness amongst the likes of me, who must pay full fair (€72 a month).

I think Ireland should scrap the free travel pass and bring in reduced fares attached to a MODERN, non-transferable ID system. The free travel pass is being abused and forged all over the place and there's not a damn thing the operators can do about it: The Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Department of Transport together with the Department of Finance need to solve this issue, and it is a big issue.

I'm sure the likes of 'yoyo' wouldn't mind paying for a reduced price ticket, IF they knew the junkies and winos would be kicked off for not having one.

in fairness it is easy talk about abolishing the free travel pass when you are in another country but there are so many people here that rely on it to get to the "local" town or even to the local shops to just remove it would surely be madness! it is not limited to the city of dublin where most of the scumbags are.

The Big Red Button

AlekSmart wrote: »

There we have it so,we as a people will usually veer back to find-an-excuse mode,which will always tend to favour the miscreant rather than the person who simply wishes the system to be functional.

Do you think that she was right to do what she did? Would you appreciate another passenger picking up your bag while on public transport? I certainly wouldn't.

She did not deserve the abuse that was thrown at her at all, but come on, you have to respect other peoples' personal property.

I'm just saying that a bit of common sense on her part could have avoided the whole incident.

AlekSmart

Do you think that she was right to do what she did? Would you appreciate another passenger picking up your bag while on public transport? I certainly wouldn't.

Absolutely!,the lady was dead-on 100% right in her approach.

It is after all a Seat,available and intended for passengers to Sit on.
I regularly use the PA system to remind pasengers on busy journeys that seats are NOT for storing luggage and that other passengers may well appreciate the use of them....It does`nt go down at all well with a certain grouping...but I get enough Thank-You`s to prove to me that it WORKS.

In the case outlined by Shamwari,being on Luas means No driver or official to instruct our man to remove his luggage so it fell to the passenger herself.

If this bag wielding fellow was concerned about his baggage being touched...then he should have taken care not to place it on a seat- Fullest of Stops.

Not for the first time does this little vigniette illustrate that great gulf betwen ourselves and the remainder of the civilised Public Transport world......."The Greater Good" vs "The absolute entitlement of the Individual".

The Big Red Button

AlekSmart wrote: »

It is after all a Seat,available and intended for passengers to Sit on.

I absolutely agree with this.

My point is that she could have simply asked him to move it. Instead of taking it upon herself to do it herself without even speaking to him. I often have my handbag on the seat beside me and wouldn't have the slightest problem with moving it if asked to do so (if there weren't many seats available I'd pick it up anyways to free up the seat, but that's irrelevant.) However if a random passenger decided to pick up my handbag and put it on the floor, I'd find it completely inappropriate and would be very annoyed about it.

There is a huge difference between asking someone to move their property and doing it yourself.

foggy_lad

the property should not have been blocking the seat to begin with and there was nothing to say it actually belonged to the person sitting opposite it, i would simply move it off the seat onto the floor and let the other person worry about it there!

murphaph

chatterpillar wrote: »

I absolutely agree with this.

My point is that she could have simply asked him to move it. Instead of taking it upon herself to do it herself without even speaking to him. I often have my handbag on the seat beside me and wouldn't have the slightest problem with moving it if asked to do so (if there weren't many seats available I'd pick it up anyways to free up the seat, but that's irrelevant.) However if a random passenger decided to pick up my handbag and put it on the floor, I'd find it completely inappropriate and would be very annoyed about it.

There is a huge difference between asking someone to move their property and doing it yourself.

If someone looked at you and the seat as if to say "I'd like to sit down where your bag is", would you ignore their body language and wait for an oral request, or would you move your bag? I assume the latter, but the scummer ignored the lady's body language request to remove his bag.

murphaph

foggy_lad wrote: »

in fairness it is easy talk about abolishing the free travel pass when you are in another country but there are so many people here that rely on it to get to the "local" town or even to the local shops to just remove it would surely be madness! it is not limited to the city of dublin where most of the scumbags are.

I lived in Ireland for 30 years, so I think I can still comment on things there

I am not suggesting that free travel pass holders should pay full fare, but they should pay SOMETHING so that they respect the service being provided to them and don't take it for granted. It will also ensure that scumbags, winos and junkies will have to either buy a ticket (unlikely) or travel black and risk the fine, which will at least give Veolia etc. the right to eject them from the tram and give them a standard fare penalty. The present situation is untenable really.

foggy_lad

murphaph wrote: »

I lived in Ireland for 30 years, so I think I can still comment on things there

I am not suggesting that free travel pass holders should pay full fare, but they should pay SOMETHING so that they respect the service being provided to them and don't take it for granted. It will also ensure that scumbags, winos and junkies will have to either buy a ticket (unlikely) or travel black and risk the fine, which will at least give Veolia etc. the right to eject them from the tram and give them a standard fare penalty. The present situation is untenable really.

they do respect the services which they avail of but a very small percentage of users of public transport are scumbags. these scumbags need to be locked up!

there is also a small percentage of users with free travel who are casualties of road accidents assaults etc who have brain damage and behave in the way they do because of this, so lets lock them up in a hospital behind the 12foot high walls of yesteryear?? no i say give them all a "companion" pass that entitles them to travel only when accompanied by a responsible fare paying adult.

AlekSmart

I think Ireland should scrap the free travel pass and bring in reduced fares attached to a MODERN, non-transferable ID system. The free travel pass is being abused and forged all over the place and there's not a damn thing the operators can do about it: The Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Department of Transport together with the Department of Finance need to solve this issue, and it is a big issue.

All very true Murphaph,and something which is for sure going to collapse the entire Free Travel Scheme if not addressed pronto.


Foggy_Lad posted :

In fairness it is easy talk about abolishing the free travel pass when you are in another country but there are so many people here that rely on it to get to the "local" town or even to the local shops to just remove it would surely be madness! it is not limited to the city of dublin where most of the scumbags are.

I have little doubt but Murphaph`s opinions are coloured by his country of residence and by his observations of a working efficient public transport system as opposed to a functional "it`ll do" one.

What difference is there between an elderly German,Dutch or Belgian person and an Irish one ?

There are plenty of Rural German areas with elderly people who "depend" on Public Transport also and whose entitlement to a concession is most likely funded by the Local Taxation paid in their State.

I would also speculate that the German concession holder will actually be aware that somebody is paying for their journey whereas that concept rarely impinges on the Irish physche where it appears the Bus Pass Fairy lives in the Dept of Social Protection`s Sligo offices.

As it currently stands none of the relevant agencies,to my knowledge,has a definitive figure for currently valid Free Travel Scheme passes.

The last figure I saw was a guesstimate given to a Dail Committee hearing when a Civil Servant put a figure of circa 600,000 Free Travel Passes in circulation.

If true,that is an apocalyptic amount of people whose Public Transport usage is paid for by somebody else.

As I have explained before,the Northern Irish Authorities were sufficently compos mentis to shy away from accepting the "Bit of Cardboard" and insisted on our over 66`s accquiring one of their Northern Irish Senior SmartPass cards.....the major difference in attitude being a reluctance on the Northern Irish part to accept estimates,if`s,but`s and maybe`s as opposed to real-time verifiable information on each and every use of their concession pass.

I suppose the dead giveaway is the word concession which immediately gives one an idea of how they view the service they provide...

Oooops Sorry...gone way OT at this stage...now where were we exactly..???????

murphaph

600,000 free passes in circulation? wow! I figured maybe 100,000 tops. Clearly if this estimate (why don't they know for sure??) is any way accurate there is widescale abuse of this scheme going on, and that's with genuine passes (God knows how many forged ones exist, but it's such a sh!tty piece of paper any 15 year old could knock one up on his computer).

There must be a lot of dead pass holders who miraculously still use public transport. Ireland is sucha disjointed mess: it's time to start figuring out who is in receipt of what, where they live etc. etc. I was always against an ID card like the continentals, but now I'm firmly in favour of one being introduced. Hopefully our hand will be forced by the brits, but that's unlikely under a Tory governmnent (if Britain ever joined Schengen, we would have to also or face border checkpoints again).

We could press ahead with a national ID card though, linked to being registered at a particular address etc. Just like in Germany: it's illegal to move house and not register your new address within 7 days. People feel safer, as they know it's easier to find criminals and other miscreants. I am registered here and don't feel it impinges on my "civil liberties", quite the contrary.

trellheim

As I said earlier, if the pass was replaced by a e-tag then the amount of money needed for subvention would go down,

foggy_lad

murphaph wrote: »

600,000 free passes in circulation? wow! I figured maybe 100,000 tops. Clearly if this estimate (why don't they know for sure??) is any way accurate there is widescale abuse of this scheme going on, and that's with genuine passes (God knows how many forged ones exist, but it's such a sh!tty piece of paper any 15 year old could knock one up on his computer).

There must be a lot of dead pass holders who miraculously still use public transport. Ireland is sucha disjointed mess: it's time to start figuring out who is in receipt of what, where they live etc. etc. I was always against an ID card like the continentals, but now I'm firmly in favour of one being introduced. Hopefully our hand will be forced by the brits, but that's unlikely under a Tory governmnent (if Britain ever joined Schengen, we would have to also or face border checkpoints again).

We could press ahead with a national ID card though, linked to being registered at a particular address etc. Just like in Germany: it's illegal to move house and not register your new address within 7 days. People feel safer, as they know it's easier to find criminals and other miscreants. I am registered here and don't feel it impinges on my "civil liberties", quite the contrary.

i totally agree that something must be done about the fraudulant use of the free travel system and the thousands and thousands of forged/copied passes in circulation but we are forgetting one simple answer to this which is to simply insist on the pass holder having either a current valid drivers licence or passport as proof of identity which will render duplicate passes useless, and then a fraud line to sligo that bus and train drivers/inspectors can ring to confirm a pass is valid and not a forgery.

after this then it can be up to the department of social wastefulness protection to issue proper passes in the form of a smart card maybe rather than some civil war type bit of paper. it is just another example of how backwards ireland is.

murphaph

foggy_lad wrote: »

i totally agree that something must be done about the fraudulant use of the free travel system and the thousands and thousands of forged/copied passes in circulation but we are forgetting one simple answer to this which is to simply insist on the pass holder having either a current valid drivers licence or passport as proof of identity which will render duplicate passes useless, and then a fraud line to sligo that bus and train drivers/inspectors can ring to confirm a pass is valid and not a forgery.

after this then it can be up to the department of social wastefulness protection to issue proper passes in the form of a smart card maybe rather than some civil war type bit of paper. it is just another example of how backwards ireland is.

Our Monopoly money type driving licences are just as easy to forge tbh. Mine gets a good going over when I rent cars with it...can't wait till it expires and I can exchange it for a German one which actually has such advanced features as being made of plastic and having a hologram on it and won't look like I made it myself (mine's almost 10 years old and has been in my wallet all that time, so looks pretty tatty).

The free travel pass should be phased out and be replaced with a smart card with photo ID, holograms and signature printed on it. Not all operators can currently scan smart cards, but merely replacing it with something not made of paper and with a smattering of security features would be a huge leap forward. A specific offence of using a forged travel pass should be on the statute books with fixed penalties, including imprisonment for a second offence. It is fraud on a massive scale and must be costing the state (ie, ordinary taxpayers!) a bloody fortune.

Seriously though, making people pay a nominal fee for use of public transport, rather than providing it completely free of charge would eliminate a massive amount of the forgeries as people would still need to pay something.

foggy_lad

making people pay something is ok untill you get out into the sticks where older people are living in old houses that cost a fortune to heat and they just cant afford the cost of the bus into town on pension day, why penalise the genuine benefactors of the scheme just because the state fails for so long to manage it properly? remember also this is a free travel scheme for all sorts of genuine people in society including those with severe physical and mental incapacity and the elderly that have been paying into this all their lives, as well as those that feign illness to get "put on the pension" or buy a pass in the local or get a friend to order a duplicate pass for them.

3.2 ELIGIBILITY FOR FREE TRAVEL?

To avail of Free Travel, a person must first apply for a Free Travel Pass from this Department. The applicant will qualify, if s/he is living permanently in the State (i.e. on an all-year-round basis) and is aged 66 or over.

If the applicant is under age 66, in addition to permanently residing in the State, s/he must satisfy any of the conditions below;

1. be a recipient of one of the following payments;
- Invalidity Pension
- Blind Person's Pension
- Disability Allowance ( DA)
- Carer's Allowance (you may get a single status pass only, if you are aged under 66)
- Incapacity Supplement or Workmen's Compensation Supplement with Disablement Pension, for at least 12 months
- a Social Security Invalidity/Incapacity Pension/Benefit, or an equivalent payment, for at least 12 months, from a country covered by EC Regulations*, or from a country with which Ireland has a bilateral Social Security Agreement*
2. Live in Health Service Executive approved residential care and has previously received either Disability Allowance (from this Department) or Disabled Person's Maintenance Allowance ( DPMA - from a Health Service Executive) or would staisfy the medical conditions and means test for Disability Allowance
3. Be a specified carer for a person getting Constant Attendance Allowance or Prescribed Relatives Allowance from this Department (you may get a single status pass only, if you are under age 66)
4. s/he is blind or severely visually impaired and you satisfy the medical conditions for a Blind Pension.
5. be a widowed person aged between 60 and 65 years inclusive, whose late spouse held a Free Travel Pass from this Department, and who prior to his/her death, resided with him/her on a permanent basis, and who is now receiving one of the following payments and who satisfies the other conditions of the scheme;
- State Pension (Transition), (payable at age 65)
- Widow(er)'s Contributory or Non-Contributory Pension
- Widow(er)'s Pension under the Occupational Injuries Benefits Scheme
- One-Parent-Family Payment
- Widow's or Widower's Pension under the Occupational Injuries Benefit Scheme
- An equivalent Social Security Pension/Benefit from a country covered by EC Regulations, or from a country with which Ireland has a Bilateral Social Security Agreement
- an ORDINARY Garda Widow's Pension from the Department of Justice.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/pages/freetravel.aspx#3

3.9 EVIDENCE OF IDENTITY

Whenever a person is travelling using their Free Travel Pass, s/he must produce their Pass for inspection to an Inspector of the Transport Operator or to an Official of the Department of Social Protection, if asked. If considered necessary, the Pass Holder and/or his/her accompanying spouse/partner must also produce evidence of their identity by providing a sample of signature to the officials mentioned above. These officials have the authority to confiscate a Free Travel Pass if there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the Pass is being misused.

If a passholder lives in Dublin, Cork city, Galway city, Limerick city or Waterford city, they are also required to produce a Free Travel Photo ID, which can be obtained from CIE, free of charge.
3.10 WHAT TO DO IF THE FREE TRAVEL PASS IS LOST?

If a Free Travel pass is lost or stolen, the Pass Holder should complete form FT27 in order to apply for a replacement Free Travel Pass. This form is available on request from the Department's Free Travel Section.

so to prove my identity i must sign my name or make my mark! how backward is that in 2010??

foggy_lad

at hte end of it all the luasd is operated by veolia and it is their responsibility to police it and they have a duty of care to their passengers so it is surely up to them to keep the platforms and trams free from these scumbag junkie beggars and winos?

why are we even discussing taking the pass from those that need it most to cater for veolias refusal to act on a serious issue on their own doorstep? the idea of someone who is blind or severely mentally or physically disabled having to root around for 50cent to use the luas or a bus or train is abhorrant!

murphaph

foggy_lad wrote: »

making people pay something is ok untill you get out into the sticks where older people are living in old houses that cost a fortune to heat and they just cant afford the cost of the bus into town on pension day, why penalise the genuine benefactors of the scheme just because the state fails for so long to manage it properly? remember also this is a free travel scheme for all sorts of genuine people in society including those with severe physical and mental incapacity and the elderly that have been paying into this all their lives, as well as those that feign illness to get "put on the pension" or buy a pass in the local or get a friend to order a duplicate pass for them.

To be honest, if an elderly person insists on living in a house in the countryside, miles from services in an innefficient house then they will have to endure the consequences. They could sell up and move into a more modest place, nearer to town. It's a side issue for the sake of this thread though, most misuse of the travel pass is amongst people under 66 as they automatically get them, regardless of means (a bit stupid in itself).

Unemployed should have to pay a reduced fare to use public transport. I guarantee you that alone will get a LOT of the undesirables off the tram as junkes won't pay for the use of it. This will allow Veolia to throw them off for having no tickets.

ordinary_girl

murphaph wrote: »

Unemployed should have to pay a reduced fare to use public transport. I guarantee you that alone will get a LOT of the undesirables off the tram as junkes won't pay for the use of it. This will allow Veolia to throw them off for having no tickets.

The cost of public transport over here is ridiculous, and they do give out those free travel passes way too easily. I'm currently unemployed and basically save any trips to town only for job interviews - it costs me over a fiver to get there and back and money's really tight, and it annoys me no end when I'm on the LUAS that usually the scum that are causing hassle have those free passes, especially when chances are they're not doing anything to find employment and probably have more money than I do!

Basically, they should get rid of free passes altogether and just have reduced fares, I completely agree with you, it'd definitely eliminate a lot of the issues on public transport.

dowlingm

While I have serious problems with free travel, I agree that this is hardly the thread to discuss it.

DWCommuter

Screw free travel! Start a topic elsewhere. Getting back on topic....

Yesterday on one of my (not so frequent) travels on the Luas Red line, I was accosted on several ocassions for a "smoke", "change" and in one particular instance "57 cent" The "57 cent" merchant had a good scam going. Thats what he asked for on every ocassion. When he got it or more, he asked other people for the same amount along the lines of, "I just need 57 cent to buy a ticket. Thats all. Please. I'll say a prayer for you. Go on, its not much, I need to get home."

I let several trams pass just to watch this low life at work. Apart from the well appointed clothing that he wore, the smell off him was horrendous. A combination of crotch rot and alcohol. Drugs? I don't know. When he had harrassed enough people, he decided to get onto a tram. Once on board, he was texting furiously (obviously had credit or maybe he was on a bill pay account.:eek:) He stood in the doorway and ignored polite requests to move so other people could get on. At Heuston, he got off to join the crew that are supported (literally) by TVMs.

Dublin is a small city. I don't visit via public transport and foot that often. But yesterdays experience was punctuated by a series of Luas beggars at Heuston. Dope heads on board (both ways) and more beggars at Jervis, working through the crowd. Add to that the beggars on the Millennium bridge, those walking around Temple bar, literally crawling all over me outside a cafe and a more agressive type in Wicklow street and I have to say I'll be driving in future as a result of my short experience.

Interestingly, when I got home a GARDA called to my door to remind me about a fine I have for using a mobile while driving. So its nice to see that oul Ireland has its priorities right. Dublin is flooded with scumbags harrassing people, but Im a real criminal that warrants a Garda visit.

Oh well.:rolleyes:

AlekSmart

The cost of public transport over here is ridiculous, and they do give out those free travel passes way too easily. I'm currently unemployed and basically save any trips to town only for job interviews

One of the immediate benefits available if the DSP Free Travel Pass were digitized would be the ability to offer Free Travel within specific time frames or area`s...so for example a true Jobseeker could have Free Travel available between 1000 and 1700 Mon to Fri as an aide to actually seeking a job or attending interviews.

Basically, they should get rid of free passes altogether and just have reduced fares, I completely agree with you, it'd definitely eliminate a lot of the issues on public transport.

Rest_Energy has it fairly sorted,at this stage the Free Travel Scheme is limping along with the problems consequent upon its abuse becoming more visible by the day.....end it now and start afresh.

foggy_lad

I felt like I was making a small difference on Saturday at abbey st Luas stop, a garda car pulled up and the ban garda moved on the two beggars that were there and as she was getting back into the car I pointed out a guy who had been dealing from his spot sitting at the 2euro shop window but who had moved across the street before the garda arrived. The ban garda went over and immediately cuffed him before stuffing him unceremoniously into the waiting patrol car:)

People at the stop seemed happy that someone had done this and hopefully will do similar themselves someday soon!

D'Peoples Voice

If only we had heroes like this on our Luas to tackle the knackers/spongers/scumbags whatever you wish to call them