Holland -v- Spain - World Cup Final

Dolph Starbeam

Also just heard an interesting fact that Dutch goalkeeper Maarten Stekelenburg was the Dutch player with the most completed passes during the game, i suppose the Dutch midfielders were busy doing other stuff.

censuspro

They were fortunate to qualify from their group, had two relatively easy/easier games to get to the semis and four consecutive 1-0 wins to lift the World Cup. Eight goals in entire campaign, compared to Germany's 17. How is that good for football?

syngindub

Anyone know what Iniesta had written on his t-shirt?

Dolph Starbeam

censuspro wrote: »

They were fortunate to qualify from their group, had two relatively easy/easier games to get to the semis and four consecutive 1-0 wins to lift the World Cup. Eight goals in entire campaign, compared to Germany's 17. How is that good for football?

Germanys 17 but were there games hard? 12 of them against Australia, Argentina and England, 3 teams that couldn't defend at all. Every game Spain played teams parked the bus and just tried to stop them playing, Spain still played there usual game no matter what the opposition tried to do and it paid off.

Dolph Starbeam

syngindub wrote: »

Anyone know what Iniesta had written on his t-shirt?

"Dani Jarque, always with us."

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-cup/story/_/id/808165/ce/uk/?cc=5739&ver=global

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dani_Jarque

Mitch Connor

SuperInfinity wrote: »

Robben did deserve a penalty, however it would have been impossible for the referee to tell from that angle. Since Robben didn't go down, then the referee couldn't really give it.

This is what is part of what is wrong with football imo.

What you are saying is Robben was basically punished for staying on his feet.

People moan about players 'going down easy' or making a meal out of a tackle, when the fact is if they don't make it blatantly obvious to the ref what has happened (by exaggerating the contact) they are likely to get no help from the ref and lose out on the chance they had too.

Until refs start giving cards and penalties/frees for situations where players stay on their feet but are still put at a disadvantage by the foul, players will go down rather than risk missing the chance due to the foul and getting nothing at all.

jaykay74

Mitch Connor wrote: »

This is what is part of what is wrong with football imo.

What you are saying is Robben was basically punished for staying on his feet.

People moan about players 'going down easy' or making a meal out of a tackle, when the fact is if they don't make it blatantly obvious to the ref what has happened (by exaggerating the contact) they are likely to get no help from the ref and lose out on the chance they had too.

Until refs start giving cards and penalties/frees for situations where players stay on their feet but are still put at a disadvantage by the foul, players will go down rather than risk missing the chance due to the foul and getting nothing at all.

I don't think the ref could have seen Puyol grabbing Robbens top from his view behind the players. The grabbing was in front. 4th official probably could have had a word watching on the monitor (if the laws allowed it). Would be better for the game but seems like its not the way football wants to go.

Ush1

Didn't that all happen just outside the box anyway?

Mitch Connor

Ush1 wrote: »

Didn't that all happen just outside the box anyway?

I thought so. Didn't think the incident should have been a peno, but thought it should have been a free on the edge and a second yellow for Puyol.

Ush1

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I thought so. Didn't think the incident should have been a peno, but thought it should have been a free on the edge and a second yellow for Puyol.

Well no, I would have thought play advantage rather than free as it looked Robben was clean through but 2nd yellow for Puyol after.

Mitch Connor

Ush1 wrote: »

Well no, I would have thought play advantage rather than free as it looked Robben was clean through but 2nd yellow for Puyol after.

once advantage does not actually accrue the ref can call the play back to the point of the foul.

castie

Felt Iniesta should of been booked for off the ball against Van Bommel and then given his marching orders for persistant waving at the ref to book players.

Ush1

Mitch Connor wrote: »

once advantage does not actually accrue the ref can call the play back to the point of the foul.

Yeah but that was only after Robben messed up the one on one? This is from memory but I'm pretty sure he had a decent advantage, better than a free kick anyway.

copacetic

castie wrote: »

Felt Iniesta should of been booked for off the ball against Van Bommel and then given his marching orders for persistant waving at the ref to book players.

possibly but the stamp from Van Bommel that provoked the push from Iniesta should have been his 5th yellow card at least..

tdv123

castie wrote: »

Felt Iniesta should of been booked for off the ball against Van Bommel and then given his marching orders for persistant waving at the ref to book players.

But Van Bommel should have been sent off in the first half for a potential leg breaking challenge on Iniesta.

censuspro

MOG7 wrote: »

Germanys 17 but were there games hard? 12 of them against Australia, Argentina and England, 3 teams that couldn't defend at all. Every game Spain played teams parked the bus and just tried to stop them playing, Spain still played there usual game no matter what the opposition tried to do and it paid off.

I think most people would consider England and Argentian difficult teams to play against or more difficult than Paraguay and Portugal. Bear in mind that England and Argentina were favourites to win the win the WC before the tournament started.

I don't think Holland parked a bus in front of the Spanish defense and they created some clear cut chances. Point is that the media and people in general have declared Spain as the shining light of football. However, I fail to see how a team who passes the ball to death between their midfielders and defenders without creating chances is declared as footballing master class.

People also fail to mention the questionable tatics used by Spain i.e. diving all over the pitch, particularly against Chile and Paraguay.

prinz

castie wrote: »

...then given his marching orders for persistant waving at the ref to book players.

Should have gotten a warning at least followed by a yellow for constantly surrounding the ref and complaining/waving invisible cards around, seemed like ref just pandered to them by allowing it. Along with every other player on the Spanish team bar Casillas. From what I remember every player that started the match for Spain engaged in it at one time or another except for Iker. It's something that needs to be stamped out too. Last night's match could easily have seen 2 if not 3 red cards for each side, something the RTE lads seemed to have missed tbh.

IMO it's a deliberate and cynical tactical move too, as it prevents fast free kicks etc most of the time, by getting two or three players in as fast as possible to protest and slow up play.

SuperInfinity

MOG7 wrote: »

Germanys 17 but were there games hard? 12 of them against Australia, Argentina and England, 3 teams that couldn't defend at all. Every game Spain played teams parked the bus and just tried to stop them playing, Spain still played there usual game no matter what the opposition tried to do and it paid off.

Bull****.

Argentina and England can defend very well.

If it were Australia or Nigeria they were scoring against I'd give it to you, but Argentina and England?

Give me a break. Those teams would be strong favourites against Paraguay and Argentina would be significant favourites against Portugal.

It's easy to look at the defence and say it was terrible AFTER THEY WERE BEATEN FOUR NIL AND FOUR ONE BY A GREAT ATTACKING TEAM.

SuperInfinity

Australia are no shlumps at all for this competition. They beat Serbia, one of the better european teams in the competition (top five probably, better than England). They are known to have had quality players this time. Dunphy tipped them to go a long way in the competition. They only missed out on a second-round place because of their poor goal-difference from that beating by Germany.

I would say that Germany's group was the real group of death in this competition. Every one of them was of high quality.

A Dub in Glasgo

SuperInfinity wrote: »

Bull****.

Argentina and England can defend very well.

You obviously did not see Englands defence in the 1st 20 minutes against Germany, they were simply appalling.

eZe^

Quite amusing that the main hate coming for the Spanish performances in this world cup are from German supporters. Are they getting a little sensitive that their super high scoring team were kept completely quiet against Spain. Belittle Portugal/ Paraguay all you want, they still made Germany, a team that was rampant against Argentina and England, look like clueless sprinters. That is quite the achievement if you ask me. Anyway, doubt they care much, considering they are world champions.

prinz

eZe^ wrote: »

Are they getting a little sensitive that their super high scoring team were kept completely quiet against Spain.

Nothing to do with who you support tbh. It's called taking a balanced approach and a realistic view of the matches. Spain deserved their title. That's about all that can be said tbh, nothing else of note. Spain won and that might be all some people care about. Others care about football in general.

Shanotheslayer

prinz wrote: »

Others care about football in general.

Yeah because getting 11 people behind the ball which every team did againts Spain is so good for football...

censuspro

I just dont agree with the "victory for football" statement when you consider that Spain scored the least number of goals by World Cup champions. Holland have been labeled as cynical for their tactics but nothing metioned of Spain's diving throughtout the tournament which could also be caleld cynical.

SlickRic

prinz wrote: »

Nothing to do with who you support tbh. It's called taking a balanced approach and a realistic view of the matches. Spain deserved their title. That's about all that can be said tbh, nothing else of note. Spain won and that might be all some people care about. Others care about football in general.

honest question, did you care when Germany/West Germany racked up all those WC titles thanks to 'efficient' football?

Cypher_sounds

Just heard Paul the octopus has retired, enjoy your fruitful retirement fellow

prinz

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Yeah because getting 11 people behind the ball which every team did againts Spain is so good for football...

What does this have to do with anything? Once again I think you missed the part where I said 'Spain deserved their title'..... Let's not kid ourselves that overall this WC was a great exhibition of football, across all teams/groups etc.

SlickRic wrote: »

honest question, did you care when Germany/West Germany racked up all those WC titles thanks to 'efficient' football?

Wasn't around to see them, and had no particular interest in Germany at all at a WC before this one tbh. So much for the 'bitter German fan' angle.

Shanotheslayer

prinz wrote: »

What does this have to do with anything? Once again I think you missed the part where I said 'Spain deserved their title'..... Let's not kid ourselves that overall this WC was a great exhibition of football, across all teams/groups etc.

Spain did deserve their title, but talking about general football its terrible seeing 11 men defending againts a team then have people slate Spain( No, you didn't slate but other people have done)

patmac

censuspro wrote: »

nothing metioned of Spain's diving throughtout the tournament which could also be caleld cynical.

Them and every other nation on the planet, Spain are no worse than all the other countries taking part, as soon as FIFA start clamping down the better.
The ironic thing is if Robben went down in a heap the same way Iniesta did when through on goal Puyol would have been sent off and the whole game could have changed, mind you it was laughable the way he tried to get the free retrospectively.
The whole gesticulating,exagerrating,acting thing is getting very depressing.

prinz

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Spain did deserve their title, but talking about general football its terrible seeing 11 men defending againts a team then have people slate Spain( No, you didn't slate but other people have done)

Thats true, and that's part of why a lot of the WC matches were so poor. It didn't just happen against Spain, and they did a fair bit of it themselves against their opponents too. I can't think of a single team which gave everything they had/tried everything they could in all their matches with the exception possibly of North Korea.

Just highlighting the insinuation above again that if you dare say a word against Spain you must be bitter or have some vendetta against them. They are not above criticism.

Shanotheslayer

prinz wrote: »

Thats true, and that's part of why a lot of the WC matches were so poor. It didn't just happen against Spain, and they did a fair bit of it themselves against their opponents too. I can't think of a single team which gave everything they had/tried everything they could in all their matches with the exception possibly of North Korea.

They are not above criticism.

Agree completely. I think the only other game without everybody behind the ball was the 3rd match play off, which should be guarenteed tbh.

Spain got men behind the ball when they went 1-0 up with about 10mins to play, which is understandable,but for a neutral crap to see.

I agree Spain arn't above criticism, as I posted before, Puyol and Iniesta deserved to be sent off in that Holland match and they do dive, but then again, people just point out Spain dive when everybody does it and yes, it is crap to see it.

Boskowski

eZe^ wrote: »

Quite amusing that the main hate coming for the Spanish performances in this world cup are from German supporters. Are they getting a little sensitive that their super high scoring team were kept completely quiet against Spain. Belittle Portugal/ Paraguay all you want, they still made Germany, a team that was rampant against Argentina and England, look like clueless sprinters. That is quite the achievement if you ask me. Anyway, doubt they care much, considering they are world champions.

Ok, I'm a Germany supporter and I'm not planning to read the entire thread to find some 'hate' from other Germany supporters, but I admit I'm not a particular friend of the Spanish playing style. At the same time I acknowledge that Spain were very very good and are the team that deserves to win this World Cup.

However, with regards to the German performance against Spain I must say that Jogi Loew seems to have gotten it all wrong. Despite him being hailed the tactical Messiah in the other games.
I'm not advocating a Holland style performance but I was reading that in the Germany-Spain game we went through a spell of 22 minutes without a break by a foul/free. Whether that's true or not I don't know, but I'd believe it. I couldn't believe myself how 'tame' we appeared and how we seemed happy to just snap at their heels all the time and how there was no yellow cards at all.
Like I said I'm not advocating to kick the sh1t out of them, but if you allow the above to happen in a World Cup semi-final you're in the wrong game. If someone was passing and prancing around me for 22 minutes I'd fkn show him you can be sure of that. And I don't mean break their legs but they'd literally feel me breathing down their neck and stand on their toes and of course I'd stick a foot in here and there. It's a contact sport after all. And if that's not good enough and they can still hold me off - fine - but they'd have to do just that. We were timid and apprehensive against Spain and we handed it to them on a plate.

prinz

Boskowski wrote: »

I'm not advocating a Holland style performance but I was reading that in the Germany-Spain game we went through a spell of 22 minutes without a break by a foul/free. Whether that's true or not I don't know, but I'd believe it..

It's true, except it was more like 26 or 27 minutes IIRC :eek:. Shocking stuff. That's why I thought I was watching reformed basketball for a long time. No one was getting remotely physical. They turned it into a non-contact sport. Then came last night... football or MMA :pac:.. One extreme to another.

Boskowski wrote: »

We were timid and apprehensive against Spain and we handed it to them on a plate.

+1. For all the talk of 'Spain were just too good', people need to acknowledge that Germany never got going in that match whatsoever. Spain did enough to win, but only just.

I didn't see any Spain-hating on this thread. Just pointing out that they were guilty themselves of some dodgy tackles/gamesmanship and could have/should have had a few players see red just like the Dutch. Again poor standard of football in the final, Spain did enough to come out on top. They played a lot better last night IMO than they did against the Germans and that was good to see some mixing it up going forward.

Summary: Spain were better in the final then in the semi-final IMO.

eZe^

Ever entertain the minute possibility that Spain didn't let Germany get going in the match? Stifling them out of the match up completely?

Boskowski

No. In 08 yes, but this time no.

Ever heard of the phrase 'We had no chance but at least we ruined their lovely pitch'? It's what we call 'Gras fressen'. There was none of that.

kinaldo

Some great footage of Reina and co. celebrating on the plane home (with Casillas' superhot girlfriend )

http://www.rtve.es/mediateca/videos/20100712/roja-se-desata-avion-vuelta/827424.shtml

SuperInfinity

prinz wrote: »

Thats true, and that's part of why a lot of the WC matches were so poor. It didn't just happen against Spain, and they did a fair bit of it themselves against their opponents too. I can't think of a single team which gave everything they had/tried everything they could in all their matches with the exception possibly of North Korea.

Just highlighting the insinuation above again that if you dare say a word against Spain you must be bitter or have some vendetta against them. They are not above criticism.

Yes, I remember when they went 7-0 against Portugal they kept fighting till the very end for their pride, giving it everything.

redout

World Cup final: Johan Cruyff hits out at 'anti-football' Holland

Johan Cruyff has launched a scathing attack on Holland's performance in their 1-0 defeat to Spain in the World Cup final last night, slamming their "dirty" tactics and their style of "anti-football".

Cruyff was at the heart of the Holland team that earned a reputation of playing Total Football in the 1970s, and the pioneer of the style that earned the Dutch the reputation of being a joy to watch. The current Holland team played in a style that was the antithesis of that last night and a disappointed Cruyff admits it saddened him to witness their thuggery.

"On Thursday they asked me from Holland 'Can we play like Inter? Can we stop Spain in the same way Mourinho eliminated Barça?'" Cruyff told El Periódico, in reference to the way Internazionale defended their way to a Champions League semi-final victory over Barcelona.

"I said no, no way at all. I said no, not because I hate this style – I said no because I thought that my country wouldn't dare to and would never renounce their style. I said no because, without having great players like those of the past, the team has its own style.

"I was wrong. Of course I'm not hanging all 11 of them by the same rope, but almost. They didn't want the ball.

"And regrettably, sadly, they played very dirty. So much so that they should have been down to nine immediately, then they made two [such] ugly and hard tackles that even I felt the damage.

"It hurts me that I was wrong in my disagreement that instead Holland chose an ugly path to aim for the title.

"This ugly, vulgar, hard, hermetic, hardly eye-catching, hardly football style, yes it served the Dutch to unsettle Spain. If with this they got satisfaction, fine, but they ended up losing. They were playing anti-football."

Cruyff has also joined in with the criticism of the referee, Howard Webb, who has been heavily attacked for the way he managed last night's stormy game.

Webb dished out 14 yellow cards – including two to send off the Holland defender John Heitinga – but Cruyff believes he could have been even firmer, and should have dished out a red card for Nigel de Jong's karate kick to the chest of Xabi Alonso as well as handing a second booking to Arjen Robben for kicking the ball away.

Cruyff added: "When we say, often, that we do not like talking about referees, it is true and, above all, because only refereeing like that last night by the Englishman Howard Webb can create in us a state of such indignation that then, yes, it is necessary to comment.

"Because you can referee wrongly, make a mistake, but what you cannot do is create your own sense of justice and, even worse, invent a very personal application of the rules.

"Not only did he not send off two Dutchmen but he also looked the other way at times when he should have involved himself.

"A World Cup final deserves great refereeing and, above all, deserves a referee who dares to do everything it means to be a judge."

Guardian

Leiva

redout wrote: »

World Cup final: Johan Cruyff hits out at 'anti-football' Holland



Guardian

Johan has gone up a notch in my book . Fair play to him calling it like it is/was

SuperInfinity

mixednuts wrote: »

Johan has gone up a notch in my book . Fair play to him calling it like it is/was

Pretty rich for him to be saying that when he himself pulled a Saipan in 1978 when his team needed him the most, when they would almost certainly have won otherwise.

Leiva

SuperInfinity wrote: »

Pretty rich for him to be saying that when he himself pulled a Saipan in 1978 when his team needed him the most, when they would almost certainly have won otherwise.

Now did he leave or was he sent home .. Be careful Roy is known to be watching

Turtyturd

mixednuts wrote: »

Johan has gone up a notch in my book . Fair play to him calling it like it is/was

Doesn't he have some ties to Barcelona though? I think calling it like it was might have involved criticising some of the Spainish antics.

Good to see the player celebrating most is one who contributed nothing too.:D

JPA

Turtyturd wrote: »

Doesn't he have some ties to Barcelona though? I think calling it like it was might have involved criticising some of the Spainish antics.

Good to see the player celebrating most is one who contributed nothing too.:D

Understatement of the year!

redout

Turtyturd wrote: »

Doesn't he have some ties to Barcelona though? I think calling it like it was might have involved criticising some of the Spainish antics.

Good to see the player celebrating most is one who contributed nothing too.:D

JPA wrote: »

Understatement of the year!

and Barca are the Spanish national team ?

Isnt Cruyff not the manager of Catalunya who despise Spain and petition UEFA and FIFA to be recognised as a seperate state ?

CR 7

redout wrote: »

and Barca are the Spanish national team ?

redout wrote: »

I have to investigate this but surely Barca are in with a shout for laying claim to the most representatives of a team to win a World cup final with seven of the starting eleven.

The hate must be reaching boiling point on here :pac:

Only when it suits.

redout

Park Ji Sung wrote: »

Only when it suits.

care to elaborate ?

gimmick

Park Ji Sung wrote: »

Only when it suits.

You've lost me.

JPA

redout wrote: »

and Barca are the Spanish national team ?

Isnt Cruyff not the manager of Catalunya who despise Spain and petition UEFA and FIFA to be recognised as a seperate state ?

I was referring to

Doesn't he have some ties to Barcelona though?

Warper

mixednuts wrote: »

Johan has gone up a notch in my book . Fair play to him calling it like it is/was

This is much the same as comments re the Inter v Barcelona game. Did you not acknowledge his comments then.

Turtyturd

JPA wrote: »

I was referring to

It was a question...not a statement.