Holland -v- Spain - World Cup Final

irishh_bob

SuperInfinity wrote: »

Pretty rich for him to be saying that when he himself pulled a Saipan in 1978 when his team needed him the most, when they would almost certainly have won otherwise.

he boycotted the tournament in opposition to the then military junta goverment of the host country

a player who,s incredible talent was only matched by his astounding pompousity and self righteousness

Pisco Sour

irishh_bob wrote: »

he boycotted the tournament in opposition to the then military junta goverment of the host country

a player who,s incredible talent was only matched by his astounding pompousity and self righteousness

Actually the reason he didnt play in 1978 was because his family and himself was held hostage in his home in Barcelona a year before the competition started and he couldnt overcome the shock and trauma of what happened.

EDIT: Just found this link which explains it http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/apr/16/newsstory.sport15

Shanotheslayer

irishh_bob wrote: »

he boycotted the tournament in opposition to the then military junta goverment of the host country

a player who,s incredible talent was only matched by his astounding pompousity and self righteousness

And hopefully you learned not to talk about sh!t you don't know about!

04072511 wrote: »

Actually the reason he didnt play in 1978 was because his family and himself was held hostage in his home in Barcelona a year before the competition started and he couldnt overcome the shock and trauma of what happened.

EDIT: Just found this link which explains it http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/apr/16/newsstory.sport15

kinaldo

BBC Analysis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjrV9PX0VbU

Quite amazing how the first half ended with 11 v 11. Well done to Spain for not being bullied out of it.

Wonderful team and true champions.

pickarooney

Cruyff being critical of Holland? Well I never!

prinz

eZe^ wrote: »

Ever entertain the minute possibility that Spain didn't let Germany get going in the match? Stifling them out of the match up completely?

Yes and there was an element of that.

It was also blatantly obvious that when the Germans were in possession they were struggling to find each other with easy passes, off pace, no decent pressure/tackling, seemed like no communication - with players running one way, pass going the other, losing possession while under no pressure at all. It said more about Germany than it did about Spain IMO. From the kick-off they never looked comfortable on the ball, and no that's not because of Spanish pressure and getting tight.

Again 25+ minutes without a foul/free, says a lot about both teams. Spain didn't have to worry about getting tackles in and getting the ball back because they were going to get it back fairly quickly through a hopeless long ball, misplaced pass or whatever. Germany shot themselves in the foot and all Spain had to do was push them over.

prinz

kinaldo wrote: »

Well done to Spain ref for not being bullied out of into it..

FYP. :pac:

censuspro

kinaldo wrote: »

BBC Analysis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjrV9PX0VbU

Quite amazing how the first half ended with 11 v 11. Well done to Spain for not being bullied out of it.

Wonderful team and true champions.

It also shows Spain throwing themselves on ground writhing in pain when little or no contact was made. It's funny how we've come to accept diving and play acting as part of the game when this could also be called cynical.

Vyse

censuspro wrote: »

....when little or no contact was made.......

You're obvioulsy taking the piss. The Dutch tackles have been condemend internationally. If you can't see that then you're obviously blind.

irishh_bob

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

And hopefully you learned not to talk about sh!t you don't know about!

try reading a newspaper article some time or even wikepedia , the kidnapping only surfaced as a reason many years later , was mentioned as recentley as the night before the final on either BBC or itv when discussing past dutch final appearances , that cruyff boycotted the 78 finals for political reasons , this was entirely in keeping with his ultra liberal views

Dolph Starbeam

censuspro wrote: »

It also shows Spain throwing themselves on ground writhing in pain when little or no contact was made. It's funny how we've come to accept diving and play acting as part of the game when this could also be called cynical.

Sorry but it doesn't, every single foul it showed there was bad one, i agree in the 2nd half a couple times Iniesta went down easy, he was fouled, it wasn't diving but he did go down easy, with the Dutch going in so hard i don't blame them, also being the most fouled team in the World Cup i say it gets annoying after a while. The Dutch should have finished that half with 9 men and how Van Bommel did not get sent off in the whole WC is a mystery.

K-9

irishh_bob wrote: »

try reading a newspaper article some time or even wikepedia , the kidnapping only surfaced as a reason many years later , was mentioned as recentley as the night before the final on either BBC or itv when discussing past dutch final appearances , that cruyff boycotted the 78 finals for political reasons , this was entirely in keeping with his ultra liberal views

Dem damn do gooder, ultra liberals making a stand against the Argentinian Junta.

censuspro

MOG7 wrote: »

Sorry but it doesn't, every single foul it showed there was bad one, i agree in the 2nd half a couple times Iniesta went down easy, he was fouled, it wasn't diving but he did go down easy, with the Dutch going in so hard i don't blame them, also being the most fouled team in the World Cup i say it gets annoying after a while. The Dutch should have finished that half with 9 men and how Van Bommel did not get sent off in the whole WC is a mystery.

We'll just have to agree to disagree because I think that the Spanish players went down very easy in some of those challenges. Just look at 0:29 in the above video. V Bommel was late but somehow Puyol managed to throw his whole body into the air. Iniesta rolling around in pain after he was fouled. Torres went down very easy against Chile when his ankles were clipped and succeeded in having a man sent off, not to mention his rolling around on the ground in agony after the fact. Villa went down to win a penalty against Paraguay when the two players were jostling for the ball. Not a dicky bird is mentoned about any of this throughout the whole tournament and eveyone lays into Holland. The play acting and diving IMO is just as cynical as Hollands hatchet men.

censuspro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCGc_ngufDM

Dolph Starbeam

censuspro wrote: »

We'll just have to agree to disagree because I think that the Spanish players went down very easy in some of those challenges. Just look at 0:29 in the above video. V Bommel was late but somehow Puyol managed to throw his whole body into the air. Iniesta rolling around in pain after he was fouled. Torres went down very easy against Chile when his ankles were clipped and succeeded in having a man sent off, not to mention his rolling around on the ground in agony after the fact. Villa went down to win a penalty against Paraguay when the two players were jostling for the ball. Not a dicky bird is mentoned about any of this throughout the whole tournament and eveyone lays into Holland. The play acting and diving IMO is just as cynical as Hollands hatchet men.

censuspro wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCGc_ngufDM

Good video and i do agree with you about some of Spains diving and play acting, some of it, what i was saying was thast in the other clip i don't believe the Spain players were that bad, i think they were all bad tackles by the Dutch and that they were lucky to finish the 1st half with 11 men is what i was saying, other than that i do agree with you about some of there play acting.

pickarooney

Red faces for those of us praising the USA for their honesty after that Altidore clip!

kinaldo

pickarooney wrote: »

Red faces for those of us praising the USA for their honesty after that Altidore clip!

So disappointing, after Luckyloyd assured us that this doesn't happen in US sport!

kinaldo

censuspro wrote: »

It also shows Spain throwing themselves on ground writhing in pain when little or no contact was made. It's funny how we've come to accept diving and play acting as part of the game when this could also be called cynical.

Get real. If any of the Spanish players were exaggerating there (imo they certainly weren't) it was probably because it seemed like Howard Webb was giving license for the Dutch players to get away with such dangerous play.

pickarooney

kinaldo wrote: »

So disappointing, after Luckyloyd assured us that this doesn't happen in US sport!

He must have picked it up in Kingston-Upon-Hull.

#15

kinaldo wrote: »

So disappointing, after Luckyloyd assured us that this doesn't happen in US sport!

There is no comparison between soccer and US sports. Playacting is practically non-existent, and on the rare occasions that it happens, there is uproar.

No comparison whatsoever, cheating is epidemic in soccer, it happens in every single top-level game in one form or another.

I truly believe we are blind to it - if we were to objectively watch a game and count the number of times a player attempted to cheat, we'd be shocked.

Spain and Holland were disgraceful throughout the tournament, but they're not the only ones, every team does it now.

It's a stain on the sport.

tolosenc

#15 wrote: »

Spain and Holland were disgraceful throughout the tournament, but they're not the only ones, every team does it now.

It's a stain on the sport.

Here, here.

Torres and Capdevila both got players sent off by ludicrous diving. Comparing Heintinga vs Iniesta to Puyol vs Robben, you'd have to say that Iniesta, a man who was incredibly lucky to still be on the pitch, "went down softly" to get a 3rd team down to 10-men, when Robben played on honestly(imo, he's have gone down if it were in the box) and got booked for moaning to the ref about missing it.

Going back to Iniesta vs Heitinga, regardless of whether it was a dive or not, Iniesta should have been booked for gesturing to the referee for a card (9secs into video).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1aT97dbikk

ultain

Holland really should have won the cup...bad decision by web when robben was in on goal and was fouled by puyol, robben is a very honest player...if he had chosen to drop, puyol was off.

tolosenc

tolosenc wrote: »

Iniesta should have been booked for gesturing to the referee for a card (9secs into video).

Actually, that would have been mad. Presuming he still would have scored the winner, and done the same celebration, he would have been sent off without the game having restarted after his goal. Don't recall that ever happening.

Shirt taking off is where FIFA focus their attention :rolleyes:...

Warper

ultain wrote: »

Holland really should have won the cup...bad decision by web when robben was in on goal and was fouled by puyol, robben is a very honest player...if he had chosen to drop, puyol was off.

This is the thing. You are saying that if Robben went down Holland would have won the World Cup. Such massive decisions are why players go down. The only way to stamp it out is by TV evidence on the big stage and coaching at underage etc.. Diving is practically encouraged in soccer and if what you are saying is right then a lot of people would think Robben is an idiot for not going down. Im sure they would rather win the WC than not. Players that dive need to be booked/sent off. TV evidence is the only way you can see clearly if a player has dived or not. Until TV evidence comes in everyone will just hit the deck.

SuperInfinity

ultain wrote: »

Holland really should have won the cup...bad decision by web when robben was in on goal and was fouled by puyol, robben is a very honest player...if he had chosen to drop, puyol was off.

The hilarious thing is that the referee played "advantage" for that, that's part of what made the Dutch so frustrated. If he played advantage then Puyol should have been straight off the moment it went out of play.

ultain

Warper wrote: »

This is the thing. You are saying that if Robben went down Holland would have won the World Cup. Such massive decisions are why players go down. The only way to stamp it out is by TV evidence on the big stage and coaching at underage etc.. Diving is practically encouraged in soccer and if what you are saying is right then a lot of people would think Robben is an idiot for not going down. Im sure they would rather win the WC than not. Players that dive need to be booked/sent off. TV evidence is the only way you can see clearly if a player has dived or not. Until TV evidence comes in everyone will just hit the deck.

No doubt..TV evidence should be brought in for any incident around or in the box..regards robben, puyol clearly had his paws all over him.

ultain

Shirt taking off is where FIFA focus their attention :rolleyes:...[/QUOTE] In case the player is endorsing some company probably:rolleyes:

Dolph Starbeam

ultain wrote: »

Holland really should have won the cup...bad decision by web when robben was in on goal and was fouled by puyol, robben is a very honest player...if he had chosen to drop, puyol was off.

In fairness again there are 2 sides to this, as already said Holland were lucky to finish the 1st half with 11 men themselves.

redout

ultain wrote: »

Holland really should have won the cup...bad decision by web when robben was in on goal and was fouled by puyol, robben is a very honest player...if he had chosen to drop, puyol was off.

rofl - seriously get a grip man.

L'prof

The right team won at the end of the day, but after watching Robben staying on his feet only for a good chance to be wasted, you begin to see exactly why players dive so much...he should have went down...did I just say that?

Vyse

ultain wrote: »

Holland really should have won the cup...bad decision by web when robben was in on goal and was fouled by puyol, robben is a very honest player...if he had chosen to drop, puyol was off.

You just keep living in loo-laa land while the rest of the world shows a bit of common sense.

JohnnyRyan99

Shocking Tackles out of Holland
Shocking Playacting out of Spain
Thats football, fair result!

SuperInfinity

redout wrote: »

rofl - seriously get a grip man.

He is an honest player though, he only goes down when tackled roughly and is not a dirty player. I think his facial expression after getting hit is just his natural expression after getting a hit... he's not trying act like he's in extreme pain when he's like that.

ultain

redout wrote: »

rofl - seriously get a grip man.

What's the problem? robben is an honest player, not perfect..but honest when compared to some of the golden boys of soccer, who have faining injury down to a art form...

ultain

SuperInfinity wrote: »

He is an honest player though, he only goes down when tackled roughly and is not a dirty player. I think his facial expression after getting hit is just his natural expression after getting a hit... he's not trying act like he's in extreme pain when he's like that.

True..some of the fouls might not be as bad as they appear, but at least they are fouls.

ultain

Vyse wrote: »

You just keep living in loo-laa land while the rest of the world shows a bit of common sense.

Don't really know what your trying to say...Holland should have won the game, end of. I've heard such crap the last few days about how if Holland had won what a travesty it would have been..how it would be a red letter day for football!...such bollock!. So you'll be up for Spain in the euros then?..oh no wait... Ireland will play like Brazil of course.

L'prof

ultain wrote: »

Don't really know what your trying to say...Holland should have won the game, end of. I've heard such crap the last few days about how if Holland had won what a travesty it would have been..how it would be a red letter day for football!...such bollock!. So you'll be up for Spain in the euros then?..oh no wait... Ireland will play like Brazil of course.

Spain were better, de Jong should have been sent off early on and that would have been game over!

ultain

L'prof wrote: »

Spain were better, de Jong should have been sent off early on and that would have been game over!

Have to disagree Holland had the clearest chance to win the game..Spain made plenty of heavy tackles.. few of which got yellow, not to mention puyol should have eaten a red card.

L'prof

ultain wrote: »

Have to disagree Holland had the clearest chance to win the game..Spain made plenty of heavy tackles.. few of which got yellow, not to mention puyol should have eaten a red card.

Clearest chance yes, but Robben fúckéd it up! Hardly Spain's fault!

SuperInfinity

He didn't **** it up, it was a hard chance. Casillas did brilliantly, 90% of keepers would have let that in. Spain won the world cup based on Casillas, immense technical ability, a lot of luck, and spurious refereeing decisions in their favour, as well as literally boring their opponents until they made a mistake (I don't care if it's the world cup finals, seeing a few players pass it to each other over and over and over with no change and no gameplan and no direction is going to make anyone a bit dizzy and fall asleep a bit).

I think both sides deserved a draw. Holland had more clear-cut chances, Spain had more of the possession and had a lot of half chances like in their other games. A draw was the fairest result. Of course it would go to penalties and anything could happen there, maybe a world cup should be shared if that's the case.

Spain played the most boring football you could ever imagine. Holland were trying to play sharp, attacking football as much as you could imagine against a sterilizing team like Spain. Never once did they go into a hole ala Ireland at Italia 90. Never once did they try to run down the clock. Despite Spain's best efforts, it was end-to-end stuff there at times in extra time.

de Jung's late challenge might have been a sending off offence for high leg or dangerous play, just because of a freak accident doesn't always mean someone should get sent off. But the vast majority of decisions went against the Dutch, particularly Puyol not being sent off.... the clear corner not being given, and a couple of other things that went against the Dutch.

L'prof

SuperInfinity wrote: »

He didn't **** it up, it was a hard chance. Casillas did brilliantly, 90% of keepers would have let that in.

No doubt that Casillas did very well, but with Robben waiting so long before he shot he should have tried to lift it over him.

SuperInfinity wrote: »

de Jung's late challenge might have been a sending off offence for high leg or dangerous play, just because of a freak accident doesn't always mean someone should get sent off. But the vast majority of decisions went against the Dutch, particularly Puyol not being sent off.... the clear corner not being given, and a couple of other things that went against the Dutch.

Right, so you dismiss de Jong not being sent off, but chalk Puyol not getting sent off as a big mistake??? Come off it, no de Jong and it's a completely different game, one which Spain would have won quite comfortably.

I like Holland and Spain did bore the títs off me at times, but Spain deserved to win the match.

unkel

It was a horrible final. The de Jong karate kick should have been a straight red, surely we all agree. I doubt de Jong meant to commit an offence like that. Anyone trying that on, on purpose, in a football match is a traitor to his team and to his country. But anyways, he should have been sent off regardless of intention.

That out of the way, dutch tackling was hard (and punished where it should be, mostly). The spanish diving was one thing (we've seen before from certain countries and players :rolleyes:), but what was particularly bad was the constant calling for cards. And even worse the feigning of horrible pains as if their bones were broken after going down at most soft / medium and hard confrontations. Disgusting tbh and more than a few players were guilty

And I won't even go into the events in the last few minutes of extra time. Nearly 2 hours of play and the best two remaining teams in the world have failed to score. Pretty pathetic. Neither deserved to win the world cup...

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

ultain

Ireland

dfx-

I this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tpCL0cshFw

tolosenc

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Germany. Best team by a mile. The only major call that went in their favour was te Lampard goal, but most people feel they would have trounced England, regardless. They had Klose's ridiculous red card aswell. Tough enough group, then outclassed a poor England side, and walked all over an Argentina side which showed a lot of promise.

Played amazing football throughout. Muller was a big loss for the semi, and to a soft yellow at that.

Spain lost to Switzerland, beat Honduras (one of the weakest teams at the finals), and fluked(Torres dive for a red-card in the 1st half, Villa gifted a goal) a win against Chile, where a draw would have had them playing Brazil in the last-16. An average Portugal side in the last 16, and Paraguay in the 1/4(remember how Paraguay's missed peno should have been re taken? Could have been very different).

No team wins the WC on luck alone, but Spain had a lot go in their favour.

SuperInfinity

tolosenc wrote: »

Germany. Best team by a mile. The only major call that went in their favour was te Lampard goal, but most people feel they would have trounced England, regardless. They had Klose's ridiculous red card aswell. Tough enough group, then outclassed a poor England side, and walked all over an Argentina side which showed a lot of promise.

Played amazing football throughout. Muller was a big loss for the semi, and to a soft yellow at that.

Spain lost to Switzerland, beat Honduras (one of the weakest teams at the finals), and fluked(Torres dive for a red-card in the 1st half, Villa gifted a goal) a win against Chile, where a draw would have had them playing Brazil in the last-16. An average Portugal side in the last 16, and Paraguay in the 1/4(remember how Paraguay's missed peno should have been re taken? Could have been very different).

No team wins the WC on luck alone, but Spain had a lot go in their favour.

Holland were better than Germany. They had more chances against Spain than Germany and Germany lost to Serbia.

Shanotheslayer

tolosenc wrote: »

Germany. Best team by a mile.

Apparently not if they didn't win it. Imho.

Turtwig

SuperInfinity wrote: »

Holland were trying to play sharp, attacking football as much as you could imagine against a sterilizing team like Spain. Never once did they go into a hole ala Ireland at Italia 90. Never once did they try to run down the clock.

I don't know about this tbh, the dutch to me seemed like they were hitting lots of aimless long balls that just kept going out of play for the greater proportion of the game. They set out to defend and hit Spain on the break and to be honest it almost worked for them. However it lead to one gruesome match.

As for running down the clock, in both the first and second half there were occasions where the dutch goalkeeper would leave the ball at his feet and wait for a Spanish player to run up to him before he'd pick it up. An obvious attempt to help stifle the game from building any momentum or tempo.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.