Psychology & Medicine (Neurology)

Vivara

Hi guys,

I'm a fifteen year old with a huge interest in both psychology and medicine.

To most people, that would scream "PSYCHIATRY, PSYCHIATRY!" but I do not agree at all with the current industrialised psychiatric sector and believe that genetic factors play little involvement in mental illness. Unlike the views of many leading psychiatrists, I believe that the boundaries between sanity and madness are indistinct.

Here's my dilemma. Psychology is my calling. I want to go into research and want to attempt (like many, many others) to change the way the mental health industry is run. I know I probably won't get near it, but there is certainly a benefit to thinking big.

As well as this, my interest in medicine and how the brain works on a mechanical level is huge too, and I would love to do neurology. I feel this would also give me huge credibility in the event that I do want to put my opinions across — almost like seeing things from both sides of the coin.

(I am also not interested in just doing neuropsychology either, I want to be a Medical Doctor.)

To put it plainly, what are your opinions on the above? Is it silly? Many of the great minds did not limit themselves, and I don't want to either.



Another problem I have is the length of time I have to complete my education. Medicine is five years and you would then have a three year residency in neurology. A BA in psychology is three or four years and then a PhD in Clinical Psychology would be another three. Would it be better to do Psychology or Medicine first? Why?

I would perhaps be 35 by the time I am finished what I want to do. Does anyone know a way around this? Are there special cases where you can do some things at once? I really have no idea.



I know it's a lot to take in, but your opinions are greatly valued and appreciated.

Regards,
Ed.

JuliusCaesar

What I'm gathering from your post is that you want to be BOTH a medical doctor who specialises in neurology/is a neurologist AND a clinical psychologist?

A neuropsychologist is generally a Clin Psych who specialises - the current president of the Psychological Society of Ireland is one.

Quite a few psychiatrists would also agree re the dividing line...

But if you want to mostly do research then you are being called to academia. While a professional doctorate in Clin Psych is good enough for clinical practice, you'd need a research PhD to become an academic.

In any case, by the time you did an undergrad in psych, got some experience, did a Masters, and then got accepted into Clin Psych, you'd be 28-30 by the time you qualified. And that's leaving out medicine - even doing medicine alone, you could well be 30-35 by the time you get your specialist exams.

Dunno if this is any use to you - and I'm open to correction as I'm not an expert in how things are nowadays as I qualified when twas neither popular nor profitable.

Valmont

I think JC is correct. It would take an incredibly long time to become both a psychological academic and a medical doctor. It would be better to do either one and do it properly. Don't ever stop thinking ambitiously or of the bigger picture because if you do you might wake up in 8 years and realise you are doing your Phd on something hopelessly pedantic and superfluous. Good luck anyway.

Vivara

Thanks a million for your quick reply!

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

What I'm gathering from your post is that you want to be BOTH a medical doctor who specialises in neurology/is a neurologist AND a clinical psychologist?

A neuropsychologist is generally a Clin Psych who specialises - the current president of the Psychological Society of Ireland is one.

Yes that's correct. I want to be a neurologist and a clinical psychologist. There are a number of people who have done this, and an even larger number who have become a clinic psychologist AND a psychiatrist, which takes the same amount of time.

Do you think I'm silly? I have no problem if you do — I want to hear all opinions.

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

But if you want to mostly do research then you are being called to academia. While a professional doctorate in Clin Psych is good enough for clinical practice, you'd need a research PhD to become an academic.

You've lost me. I was sure that a PhD in Clinical Pyschology split time between clincal and research settings equally. This is what I'm aiming for. On the other hand, a Psy.D is mainly clinical settings and for those who are not interested in research.

I certainly prefer the PhD as I am interested in both clinical/patient work and research.

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

In any case, by the time you did an undergrad in psych, got some experience, did a Masters, and then got accepted into Clin Psych, you'd be 28-30 by the time you qualified. And that's leaving out medicine - even doing medicine alone, you could well be 30-35 by the time you get your specialist exams.

As far as I'm aware, yo do a three/four year B.A. degree and THEN chose between a masters and a PhD. It is not necessary to do both.

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Dunno if this is any use to you - and I'm open to correction as I'm not an expert in how things are nowadays as I qualified when twas neither popular nor profitable.

Your reply is of enormous use to me! I have been craving the opinions of psychologists for a long time. Thanks a million.

Ed.

JuliusCaesar

Vivara wrote: »

Yes that's correct. I want to be a neurologist and a clinical psychologist. There are a number of people who have done this, and an even larger number who have become a clinic psychologist AND a psychiatrist, which takes the same amount of time.

Do you think I'm silly? I have no problem if you do — I want to hear all opinions.

No I don't think you're silly! I think there's a need for polymaths, people who can work across disciplines. There are plenty of doubly-qualified people around eg Medicine + Law, and they are necessary.

Vivara wrote: »

You've lost me. I was sure that a PhD in Clinical Pyschology split time between clincal and research settings equally. This is what I'm aiming for. On the other hand, a Psy.D is mainly clinical settings and for those who are not interested in research.

A PsyD is in Clinical Psychology. A PhD isn't clinical.

Vivara wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, yo do a three/four year B.A. degree and THEN chose between a masters and a PhD. It is not necessary to do both.
Ed.

Alas, the demand for Clin Psych is so high that the entry criteria have been rising steadily over the years. Most entrants to Clin Psych have a Masters, some have a PhD, all have years of clinical experience. None of these qualifications are necessary (ok some experience is good) but demand high, places limited means the bar keeps rising.

What I would say to you is - start off on the path you want to go on. Things may change in the intervening years (who know, psychology may fall in favour to the level of geography or your interests may change). But read up on what interests you - we like telling people what the good books are here in Psych! And tomorrow the others will give their opinions too...

Valmont

Vivara wrote: »

...but I do not agree at all with the current industrialised psychiatric sector and believe that genetic factors play little involvement in mental illness. Unlike the views of many leading psychiatrists, I believe that the boundaries between sanity and madness are indistinct.

Belief has little to do with modern scientific psychology and at the beginning of your career you may find that your ideals and pre-conceptions are not holding up when compared with the research literature. I suppose that I'm saying to try and keep an open mind if you do study psychology and try not to get hung up on the specific issues that brought you to the subject in the first place as it may be the case that you simply might not know the whole story.

Vivara

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

A PsyD is in Clinical Psychology. A PhD isn't clinical.

Whoops. I've been reading too much about the systems in other countries, where there are both PhDs and Psy.Ds in Clinical Psychology. Do the doctorate (presumably Psy.D) programs in Irish universities split the time between clinical and research work? I hope to God they do, as I do not want to be limited to one or the other.

Do you or Valmont know about how the doctorate programs in Ireland are regarded in other countries? How do they compare to the PhD degrees in Clinical Psychology elsewhere? If I did want to 'think big' and go to the U.S. with my doctorate, how would I be received?

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Alas, the demand for Clin Psych is so high that the entry criteria have been rising steadily over the years. Most entrants to Clin Psych have a Masters, some have a PhD, all have years of clinical experience. None of these qualifications are necessary (ok some experience is good) but demand high, places limited means the bar keeps rising.

I'm confused — yet again. What sort of a PhD could an applicant to Clinical Psychology have? One in Applied Psychology? I thought the only PhDs were in Counseling or Clinical (clearly not) and you chose one or the other. I obviously have the Irish system completely confused with the U.S. and British systems. A small outline of the system would be great if you have the time. Thanks again.

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

What I would say to you is - start off on the path you want to go on. Things may change in the intervening years (who know, psychology may fall in favour to the level of geography or your interests may change). But read up on what interests you - we like telling people what the good books are here in Psych! And tomorrow the others will give their opinions too...

If the others' opinions are anything like the two of yours, I'll be doing very well. Thanks a million for the help, it means a lot.

Valmont wrote: »

Belief has little to do with modern scientific psychology and at the beginning of your career you may find that your ideals and pre-conceptions are not holding up when compared with the research literature. I suppose that I'm saying to try and keep an open mind if you do study psychology and try not to get hung up on the specific issues that brought you to the subject in the first place as it may be the case that you simply might not know the whole story.

I completely understand. Thanks for the reminder. I have a number of psychology textbooks for the Bachelor's program already and have had a read through them. On the other hand, I'm also reading 'Madness Explained' by Richard P. Bentall. Thanks!


Ed.

lonestargirl

Vivara wrote: »

Another problem I have is the length of time I have to complete my education. Medicine is five years and you would then have a three year residency in neurology. A BA in psychology is three or four years and then a PhD in Clinical Psychology would be another three. Would it be better to do Psychology or Medicine first? Why?

Residency is training in the US, there neurology will take 4 years not 3. In Ireland it will be a minimum 8 (intern + 2xSHO + 5xRegistrar) and depending on how compeitive the registrar positions are you may have to do some years of research along the way.

Kooli

Vivara wrote: »

Hi guys,

I'm a fifteen year old with a huge interest in both psychology and medicine.

To most people, that would scream "PSYCHIATRY, PSYCHIATRY!" but I do not agree at all with the current industrialised psychiatric sector and believe that genetic factors play little involvement in mental illness. Unlike the views of many leading psychiatrists, I believe that the boundaries between sanity and madness are indistinct.

Here's my dilemma. Psychology is my calling. I want to go into research and want to attempt (like many, many others) to change the way the mental health industry is run. I know I probably won't get near it, but there is certainly a benefit to thinking big.

As well as this, my interest in medicine and how the brain works on a mechanical level is huge too, and I would love to do neurology. I feel this would also give me huge credibility in the event that I do want to put my opinions across — almost like seeing things from both sides of the coin.

(I am also not interested in just doing neuropsychology either, I want to be a Medical Doctor.)

To put it plainly, what are your opinions on the above? Is it silly? Many of the great minds did not limit themselves, and I don't want to either.



Another problem I have is the length of time I have to complete my education. Medicine is five years and you would then have a three year residency in neurology. A BA in psychology is three or four years and then a PhD in Clinical Psychology would be another three. Would it be better to do Psychology or Medicine first? Why?

I would perhaps be 35 by the time I am finished what I want to do. Does anyone know a way around this? Are there special cases where you can do some things at once? I really have no idea.



I know it's a lot to take in, but your opinions are greatly valued and appreciated.

Regards,
Ed.

I LOVE your enthusiasm!!

I don't have much else to add, but if you are hoping to 'shake things up' in the field of mental health, then it would definitely help to have a 'foot in both camps'. Dr. Terry Lynch is a good example. He was a GP who became a psychotherapist, and his views on the way mental health is handled are given more weight by his experiences on both sides of the fence.

If you're interested, here's a great speech of his:
http://www.critpsynet.freeuk.com/Lynch.htm

Vivara

lonestargirl wrote: »

Residency is training in the US, there neurology will take 4 years not 3. In Ireland it will be a minimum 8 (intern + 2xSHO + 5xRegistrar) and depending on how compeitive the registrar positions are you may have to do some years of research along the way.

Thanks lonestargirl! Would you have any suggestions as to the best way to do both neurology and clinical psychology? While being the quickest way is great, I don't want it to hamper my training. I would like to stay in Ireland for the first few years but have no problem with traveling to the U.S. or U.K. after that. Thanks.

Vivara wrote: »

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

A PsyD is in Clinical Psychology. A PhD isn't clinical.

Whoops. I've been reading too much about the systems in other countries, where there are both PhDs and Psy.Ds in Clinical Psychology. Do the doctorate (presumably Psy.D) programs in Irish universities split the time between clinical and research work? I hope to God they do, as I do not want to be limited to one or the other.

Do you or Valmont know about how the doctorate programs in Ireland are regarded in other countries? How do they compare to the PhD degrees in Clinical Psychology elsewhere? If I did want to 'think big' and go to the U.S. with my doctorate, how would I be received?

I'm confused — yet again. What sort of a PhD could an applicant to Clinical Psychology have? One in Applied Psychology? I thought the only PhDs were in Counseling or Clinical (clearly not) and you chose one or the other. I obviously have the Irish system completely confused with the U.S. and British systems. A small outline of the system would be great if you have the time. Thanks again.

Does anyone have any answers to my questions here? Thanks!


Ed.

Kooli

Vivara wrote: »

Thanks lonestargirl! Would you have any suggestions as to the best way to do both neurology and clinical psychology? While being the quickest way is great, I don't want it to hamper my training. I would like to stay in Ireland for the first few years but have no problem with traveling to the U.S. or U.K. after that. Thanks.




Does anyone have any answers to my questions here? Thanks!


Ed.

You could have a research PhD in anything to do with psychology to help with your application to the D.Clin. Psych, but something with a clinical application would of course be more beneficial.

The D.Clin.Psych does have a pretty big piece of research involved, but the emphasis is on clinical training, and the point is to go into a clinical post when you graduate, usually with the HSE.

Vivara

Kooli wrote: »

You could have a research PhD in anything to do with psychology to help with your application to the D.Clin. Psych, but something with a clinical application would of course be more beneficial.

The D.Clin.Psych does have a pretty big piece of research involved, but the emphasis is on clinical training, and the point is to go into a clinical post when you graduate, usually with the HSE.

Thanks Kooli. Reading that, I feel more inclined to do my Bachelor of Arts in Ireland and go elsewhere to do the more common PhD in Clinical Psychology which splits time between research and clinical work. I certainly do not want to be doing a Psy.D/D. Clin. Psych when the PhD seems to be better regarded elsewhere and is exactly what I'm looking for. It seems

Could someone look up about the PhD of Clin. Psych elsewhere and confirm that it is indeed not what I'm looking for? Or is it similar to what the PhD courses entail abroad? I'm a bit confused.

EDIT: Just had a look here, and it seems that the D.Clin.Psych does split time equally between research and clinical practice. Is it indeed what I'm looking for? Anyone know how it is regarded in other countries like the U.S.?


Thanks again.

Ed.

joseywhales

I know nothing about the field of Psychology or Neurology but in general I would say, if your interested do one, then when you're finished decide what interests you most and do that. You do not need to come up with a huge framework of education to plan out your future. Education is based on the premise of interest alone, so thats all that matters really. When you're finished your first course, asess where your interests lie.

I think that these days you can expect, no matter what career you choose, that you will be training for your whole life. You can constantly change to related disciplines with various masters and research and you can specialise more and more in one specific area but you will always be training, so I wouldn't be too worried if you're 35 or 45 before you "qualify", you're never qualified until your dead. As they say, it's the persuit of happiness that you can enjoy.Because contentment, thank god, is an unreachable ideal.

Well others might feel differently but I've accepted this fact and rather than seeing it as a burden or an endless struggle, I see it as something to be excited about, imagine you never have to be bored again and if you fail you can try again or try something different. No longer are people constrained to or expected to, get a job+earn money+start a family.

Enjoy learning for the sake of learning and not for where it gets you, in status or in earning potential.

hotspur

I believe that in America you don't necessarily have to have an undergraduate degree in psychology to get onto a clinical psychology programme, so if you wanted to go both the medicine and clinical psychology route then doing a BA in psychology off the bat might be unnecessary.

And if you particularly wanted the psychology degree then most people who already have a degree and want to study psychology do the 2 year H.Dip in psychology which is the equivalent of the 3/4 year psychology degree. So purely in terms of years spent studying doing medicine first would be quicker.

I suggest applying for whatever you think you would be most happy studying. You are inevitably going to change, both between now and college, and certainly during the years of your first college course. If you could only do one or the other, which would you choose? You have a couple of years to decide before you fill in your CAO.

joseywhales

hotspur wrote: »

I suggest applying for whatever you think you would be most happy studying. You are inevitably going to change, both between now and college, and certainly during the years of your first college course. If you could only do one or the other, which would you choose? You have a couple of years to decide before you fill in your CAO.

This guy said it in a clearer and more pragmatic way.
Do whatever you want and be patient, get an itch for something and follow it. Curiosity led education is the way to go. Just pick one thing that you want to go and learn about tomorrow.

Molecule

I may be a little bit of use to you as I qualified in psychology and also neuroscience, and work in a medical setting. I was initially very torn between psychology and medicine but opted for psychology in the end as I knew my interest was in mental health and I thought that studying the brain right from the start would be of more interest to me than spending years learning about the digestive system etc before being able to specialise. I can safely say that I regret that decision now but that's just me.

Be aware if you decide to go for clinical psychology that there is HUGE competition to get onto the DClinPsy (or DPsychSci or whatever abbreviation the particular college chooses). I know quite a few people who've been accepted and all had at least one masters, if not a second masters or research PhD (all PhDs are research based btw. The doctorate in Clinical Psychology is a professional doctorate in that it entitles you to registration with clinical division of the psychological society of whatever country you live in. It includes a taught component, as well as clinical placements and a research project. Once you are qualified you can submit your qualifications and registration details to the psychological society of whichever country you wish to work in and they will tell you if you meet their criteria for registration in that country or if you need to do anything in addition e.g. more clinical hours. The registration body for the USA is the American Psychological Association. You should have a look at their website and also the PSI (Ireland) and the BPS (UK).) From what my medical colleagues tell me there is less competition between doctors to get on a psychiatric scheme, in Ireland anyway. Neurology is very, very competitive and it's very difficult to get a place as a registrar in neurology in Ireland. A friend of mine is doing a PhD abroad in order to try to get a position as a neurology registrar. I'm not saying this to put you off - a challenge is a good thing - but it's good to know what the story is before you start.

It's also worth noting that if you are working as a neurologist you won't be much involved in mental health (as in, psychiatric illness). You would instead be working with people who've had cerebrovascular incidents (e.g. strokes, haemorrhages), traumatic brain injuries, dementias etc. You would however do a psych rotation during med school.

Finally, as a previous poster mentioned, although you might be convinced of your opinions towards psychiatry and the mental disorder - sanity spectrum if you are going to be a psychologist or doctor it is important that you understand the necessity of evidence-based practice. This means that the way we treat patients and their signs and symptoms is informed by the existing research body and not by anecdotal evidence or opinion. I say this as having studied and worked in the area for a few years you may find yourself somewhat disabused of some of the opinions you hold when actually faced with the reality of the crippling disabilities that many people face due to severe mental illness. Also, the evidence for the heritability of psychiatric disorders is enormous and not easily discredited. The association of specific genes with particular symptoms or syndromes is however still a long way from being confirmed. It's a fascinating area and there are huge amounts of research being done in the area in many countries including Ireland. For example, check out Prof. Michael Gill's (TCD/St. James' Hospital) research on the genetics of schizophrenia. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong but you will have to be prepared to view all the available evidence in an unbiased way and to develop good critical thinking skills in order to evaulate what you read. You might also be surprised to find out how working psychiatrists think - not necessarily in the way that they're portrayed at all. Some are strong advocates of psychological therapies and practice psychotherapy themselves.

I realise I'm rambling on but I hope this is of some help to you. There are loads of sites I'd advise you google. As well as the psychological societies I would recommend checking out the doctorate in clinical psychology sites in TCD, UCD, UL and UCG, and also the British clearing house for clinical psychology. It's also worth looking at some of the research that's being done e.g. in the Trinity College Institute of Neuroscience. Speaking of - would you be interested in being a neuroscientist? Might be worth checking out what that entails too. The health sciences board here on boards.ie is also very interesting and might give you a better idea of how it would be to train as a medical doctor.

Good luck with whatever you decide!