Spain

SantryRed

I've been reading through the Semi Final match thread and the final thread and I'm amazed at the amount of people who have a problem with how Spain play football

They keep the ball on the ground and retain possession and probe the defence until they find their opening. What is wrong with that? It's a joy to watch!

ziggy

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LuckyLloyd

The diving about the place isn't a joy to watch. They're a dislikeable bunch. And really, when you get right down to it, people would much prefer a badly played game (from a technical perspective) that yields bucket loads of chances and goalmouth action over your typical Spain game.

prinz

85 minutes of kicking it about the middle third. Time wasting. Diving. Unsporting. Fouling. 1-0 win. Hooray that was superb! Eh, no it was crap.

whatawaster

To be fair to Spain, they've had to cope with pretty much every team putting 11 men behind the ball. It's not easy for any team to create chances in those situations.
But they keep the ball superbly and limit the oppositions chances. Which is lucky for them because there's not one class defender in their team.

Personally i love watching them

gimmick

But it is the fault of the opposition. As I mentioned the in the other thread, its not Spains fault that their opposition just pack their defences and play a defensive counter attack based game.

As for their diving? I find it hilarious that Liverpool and Man Utd fans are taking such outrage to this.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

ziggy

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Ush1

If every team played like Spain you'd have a much better and watchable tournament.

The Recliner

Whatever about when Spain have the ball I thought last night they were excellent when they didn't

They gave the Germans no time and space on the ball and crowded them out of it

It was impressive to watch

parker kent

From a footballing perspective they are magnificent. They have easily been the best team in the world over the past 4 years. They dictate 95% of the games they play and always try to keep their short passing game.

However, they have players that are not easy to like. Their celebrations during Bastian Schweinsteiger's interview after Euro 2008 is a good example of this (You Tube it if you have not seen it)

Whilst most teams dive, they seem to excel in it. That is an even bigger crime for such a talented team. They are good enough to not need to rely on the dark arts. That may seem like a double standard, but Spain could be a team remembered like some of the great teams from the past if they were more like-able. They are poor winners (gloating, showboating) and poor losers (watch them after the Swiss game, Barca after the Inter game or Fabregas whenever anything goes against him at all ).

From a footballing perspective, I cannot fault them. I have the greatest respect for Xavi and Iniesta. But I am not as fond of them as I should be given how good a team they are.

Frisbee

All the naysayers are spot on, Spain are boring to watch, I mean, where are all the hopeless punts into the box and 6 foot plus players? Would they be able to play at Wigan on a wet and windy December night? I think not. The likes of Sam Allardyce and Gary Megson should be at the pinnacle of international management, they know how to get a game going, especially when playing teams that 'don't like it up 'em'

Ush1

The Recliner wrote: »

Whatever about when Spain have the ball I thought last night they were excellent when they didn't

They gave the Germans no time and space on the ball and crowded them out of it

It was impressive to watch

They play exactly like Barca sans Messi.

thorbarry

i love watching Spain play. They're great with and without the ball, some teams are only good with the ball

eZe^

Ush1 wrote: »

They play exactly like Barca sans Messi.

Bang on. Barcelona this year without Messi were the exact same. Messi adds that cutting edge that excites everyone, without him people have also labelled Barca as 'boring' or whatever.

_Bella_

parker kent wrote: »

From a footballing perspective they are magnificent. They have easily been the best team in the world over the past 4 years. They dictate 95% of the games they play and always try to keep their short passing game.

However, they have players that are not easy to like. Their celebrations during Bastian Schweinsteiger's interview after Euro 2008 is a good example of this (You Tube it if you have not seen it)

Whilst most teams dive, they seem to excel in it. That is an even bigger crime for such a talented team. They are good enough to not need to rely on the dark arts. That may seem like a double standard, but Spain could be a team remembered like some of the great teams from the past if they were more like-able. They are poor winners (gloating, showboating) and poor losers (watch them after the Swiss game, Barca after the Inter game or Fabregas whenever anything goes against him at all ).

From a footballing perspective, I cannot fault them. I have the greatest respect for Xavi and Iniesta. But I am not as fond of them as I should be given how good a team they are.

Spot on, I know I should like them because they can play some great football but sometimes I find their lack of ambition frustrating. When they go 1 goal up they don't even try to get a second they just switch off and pass the ball around for the sake of it. They can kill the game at 20 minutes and after that there is no point in watching. When Germany went ahead they had desire and the rest of the game was watchable to see what they would create.

flahavaj

There's a lot to admire about Spain and the way they play. Their possession football is unbelieveable at times and its a very effective way of not only attacking constantly but also defending. While they're back four is a little slack (and I don't care what anyone says it is) they concede very few because its very difficult for opposition teasms to build up as head of steam when they don't have the ball.

With regards their "likability" as a team, I can't say i love them or anything like that. They're a good team to watch, but thats about it. Personally i prefer teams that play on the swift counter attack, the likes of United of a sfew season ago, or the way Germany played in earlier rounds. Its exhilarating to watch when done properly. As others have said its not Barca's fault teams team to defend in numbers against them. but by the same tioken, I understand why teams do so as its pretty much the only way to play against them. Taking them on man for man in a pasing game is only going to get you murdered.

I do think there's a certain amount of bitterness towards them bacuase they're basically an extension of Barca who have superceded the top English clubs in as one of the better teams in Europe as well as the fact that they seem to be buying all round them these days. Basically being successful is one way to ensure people fall out of love with you pretty fast.

I do dislike the diving and deliberately getting players sent off. The likes of Busquets' carry on in the CL final and Capdevilla's carry on against Paraguay makes me sick to be honest. And yes I know United players do it as well but I quite happily condemn the likes of Rooney or Ronaldo when they do/did the same. Just because its an endemic problem in the game doesn't make it OK for Spain to do it as badly or worse than everyone else.

pickarooney

Simple enough - the majority of people who watch football want to see a competitive encounter with brave, creative play on both sides and and no bollocks-acting. It's rare enough to see this (maybe three matches in total in this competition) and rarer still when a strong tem like Spain is involved.

ziggy

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Chardee MacDennis

spain have been a joy to watch - if you think otherwise you're just uneducated

whatawaster

pickarooney wrote: »

Simple enough - the majority of people who watch football want to see a competitive encounter with brave, creative play on both sides and and no bollocks-acting. It's rare enough to see this (maybe three matches in total in this competition) and rarer still when a strong tem like Spain is involved.

Here's the problem. No team has the guts or the ability to go out and play Spain like that. They'd be torn apart. Even Germany, who i expected it from, were very tentative last night.

flahavaj

ziggy wrote: »

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Its not a factor in whether I like/dislike Spain either. I've already said I quite like them.

Its something that players in every team do far too much and its a cancer on the game. If I used whether players dive or not as a reason for not "liking" a team I'd have to stop watching the game altogether tbh as there'd be no one to support.

Fizman

_Bella_ wrote: »

When Germany went ahead they had desire and the rest of the game was watchable to see what they would create.

See, this is where I think people are not being fair on Spain.

Germany had desire and ambition against England and Argentina even when a goal up. However, they changed their mentality completely against the Spanish. This is not Spains fault by the way, it's just that the Spanish are very bloody talented and I don't think Lowe had enough faith in his team to send them out to give it a proper go.

Pre-tournament I wanted Spain to win it out, but having been so impressed with Germanys approach to the group games and Eng and Arg matches, I was pining for Germany. They let me down bigtime however and Spain thoroughly deserve to progress as the better team.

Baffles me how many people are upset with Spain!

Eirebear

Its not so much the way Spain play football that annoys me its the way that everyone fawns over them that annoys me.

Theyre very similar to Barcelona in they way that, yes they play some absolutely beautiful football, but they are not the last bastions of pure football that people make them out to be.

Watching them against Paraguay, constantly on at the referee, always looking for opposition players to be carded, falling over at the slightest hint of a tackle.
Yet its all excused because they are Spain, and they play nice passing football.

I'm also sick of people complaining about the way teams play against them. I dont know about you guys, but last time i checked tactics were a huge part of the beautiful game, and if you know a team can obliterate you with passing flowing football....whats the obvious tactic for dealing with that?

Up until last night, which i never watched, Germany had been the best team in the tournament by a country mile, they were awesome to watch in the games against England and Argentina, yet for some reason everyone wanted Spain to win because "they play the better football".

I simply dont get it.

ziggy

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Royale with Cheese

I don't care how technically brilliant they are or how good they are at retaining possession etc. They've bored the utter shít out of me in this tournament. I hate watching them. Coming from an Arsenal fan, that's some achievement.

parker kent

Fizman wrote: »

See, this is where I think people are not being fair on Spain.

Germany had desire and ambition against England and Argentina even when a goal up. However, they changed their mentality completely against the Spanish. This is not Spains fault by the way, it's just that the Spanish are very bloody talented and I don't think Lowe had enough faith in his team to send them out to give it a proper go.

Pre-tournament I wanted Spain to win it out, but having been so impressed with Germanys approach to the group games and Eng and Arg matches, I was pining for Germany. They let me down bigtime however and Spain thoroughly deserve to progress as the better team.

Baffles me how many people are upset with Spain!

I am not sure they did change their mentality. I just think they could not get possession in Spain's half for long enough to make an impact. Spain were excellent at closing the German's down last night.

That being said, I have great respect for Spain but no love. It is not even that I think they are boring, I just have no affinity with them. Much like Flah said above, I too find swift counter attacking football the most attractive to watch when it is done well. I guess it is like how one guy likes a blonde girl and another likes a brunette.

ziggy

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LuckyLloyd

Yeah, I have to agree that the fawning over them is extremely tiresome.

LuckyLloyd

ziggy wrote: »

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Yeah but, so long as teams are forced into doing this against them the games involving them will be distinctly unenjoyable. The point is that people dislike Spanish matches. Ultimately it doesn't matter whether Spain are to blame for that or not.

Ush1

Eirebear wrote: »

Its not so much the way Spain play football that annoys me its the way that everyone fawns over them that annoys me.

Theyre very similar to Barcelona in they way that, yes they play some absolutely beautiful football, but they are not the last bastions of pure football that people make them out to be.

Watching them against Paraguay, constantly on at the referee, always looking for opposition players to be carded, falling over at the slightest hint of a tackle.
Yet its all excused because they are Spain, and they play nice passing football.

I'm also sick of people complaining about the way teams play against them. I dont know about you guys, but last time i checked tactics were a huge part of the beautiful game, and if you know a team can obliterate you with passing flowing football....whats the obvious tactic for dealing with that?

Up until last night, which i never watched, Germany had been the best team in the tournament by a country mile, they were awesome to watch in the games against England and Argentina, yet for some reason everyone wanted Spain to win because "they play the better football".

I simply dont get it.

What teams don't chastise refs?

Oh and if you can't fawn over a team that you believe play the game the right way, who can you fawn over? Or are you just not really that into football?

Paul Tergat

Eirebear wrote: »

yet for some reason everyone wanted Spain to win because "they play the better football".

This aint true at all. Just check the start of the Spain-Germany match thread for proof

LuckyLloyd

Ush1 wrote: »

What teams don't chastise refs?

Oh and if you can't fawn over a team that you believe play the game the right way, who can you fawn over? Or are you just not really that into football?

Sigh. The "right way" is whatever way maximises the talents at the disposal of a specific team at a given time. The idea of a single best method irks me greatly.

ziggy

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prinz

Ush1 wrote: »

Or are you just not really that into football?

This is about the fifth time this morning alone that I have seen this trotted out against someone who dislikes Spain. Can people not accept that other people don't like some players and teams for good reason? For some reason is it accepted now that to 'understand' or 'be into football' you now have to love Spain?

ziggy

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Zebra3

I think for Spain to become a really good side they need to get rid of that little fella up front and replace him with someone like Crouch or Heskey. He's far too small to be hoofing the ball upto.

Turtwig

Eirebear wrote: »

Up until last night, which i never watched, Germany had been the best team in the tournament by a country mile, they were awesome to watch in the games against England and Argentina, yet for some reason everyone wanted Spain to win because "they play the better football".

Germany's ball retention in the games against Argentina and England was very poor. When Germany broke on the counter against the disorganised Argies and England, neither team actually bothered to track back or close down the space. Spain hunted the ball down again and pressurised the Germans like they hadn't experienced before (Maybe against Ghana?). Had Germany played against organised teams they wouldn't have been near as brilliant to watch.

gimmick

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Yeah, I have to agree that the fawning over them is extremely tiresome.

Similarly I find the OTT hate tiresome.

I wonder would the hate be there as much if Torres was playing well, and Alonso was still at Liverpool, and Pique was still a Man U player?

Ush1

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Sigh. The "right way" is whatever way maximises the talents at the disposal of a specific team at a given time. The idea of a single best method irks me greatly.

A single best method is what you personally find the most aesthetic and beautiful form of the sport.

I'm sure the right way for Glen Whealan is different than the right way for Messi, but I know who I fawn over.

flanzer

Yes Spain are a joy to watch in the middle third of the pitch.

The problem I have with them is Xavi, Iniesta, Pedro, Alonso, Busquetts zag-zig pass the ball beautifully over and back as they attack, but when they get to the box, they're still trying to find each other.

Last night was there was a couple of example where Alonso has a few long rangers. Insieta had 1 or 2 opportunities in the box but declined in favour of a pass. Xavi had one chance to score but declined also

It's just a bit frustrating at times

Ush1

prinz wrote: »

This is about the fifth time this morning alone that I have seen this trotted out against someone who dislikes Spain. Can people not accept that other people don't like some players and teams for good reason? For some reason is it accepted now that to 'understand' or 'be into football' you now have to love Spain?

No, people said that the fawning over them is tiresome. If you see in the way Spain play, personally, how you love the game to be played, why wouldn't you fawn over them?

Why should you be ashamed of saying you think they are brilliant?

_Bella_

I think the superiority of Spains fans is also a factor. People can enjoy who they want, everyone has different taste. But Spanish fans seem to think they are the only ones who can play football and if you don't enjoy it, it's clearly because you are of a lower intellect.

And they always go on about how they won Euro '08, they were the best team but not by the margin their fans go on about. They were lucky to beat Italy on penos.

LuckyLloyd

gimmick wrote: »

Similarly I find the OTT hate tiresome.

I wonder would the hate be there as much if Torres was playing well, and Alonso was still at Liverpool, and Pique was still a Man U player?

Look, there are a lot of people who didn't like England on this board irrespective of the amount of EPL players on their squad. And as you well know, there are a ton of posters around here who strongly dislike Real Madrid and Barcelona and - last time I checked - those two clubs make up a greater portion of the Spanish squad than EPL clubs.

You'll just have to accept that one or two players from a club that one supports doesn't lock them into auto approving of a particular national team.

Ush1 wrote: »

A single best method is what you personally find the most aesthetic and beautiful form of the sport.

I'm sure the right way for Glen Whealan is different than the right way for Messi, but I know who I fawn over.

This is the point though!! For all Spain's technical competence, the games they are involved in are far from satisfying. You like seeing lots of pass and move and retention of possession. Other people find shots on goal and drama at either end to be beautiful.

I just want to be entertained given that my country is not in the tournament. Spain aren't really sorting me out to that end. The rest is irrelevant.

Zebra3

_Bella_ wrote: »

if you don't enjoy it, it's clearly because you are of a lower intellect.

Well, that's true.

prinz

Ush1 wrote: »

No, people said that the fawning over them is tiresome.

I can go link the other examples from this morning too, because I dared suggest Spain weren't superb last night, automatically I don't understand football.... it's BS. As if this Spanish side have become the embodiment of the game.

Ush1 wrote: »

If you see in the way Spain play, personally, how you love the game to be played, why wouldn't you fawn over them?Why should you be ashamed of saying you think they are brilliant?

No one suggested you should, but it gets comical when you start overlooking obvious weaknesses and describing their exploits in hyperbole.

Last night's match was a dull affair for the most part which the better team won in the end. Come on here this morning and suddenly it was a 'masterclass' 'superb' etc.

_Bella_

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This is the point though!! For all Spain's technical competence, the games they are involved in are far from satisfying. You like seeing lots of pass and move and retention of possession. Other people find shots on goal and drama at either end to be beautiful.

I just want to be entertained given that my country is not in the tournament. Spain aren't really sorting me out to that end. The rest is irrelevant.

I agree completely. For instance in Euro '08 Turkey versus Germany was by far the best game, even though Spain dominated. Why because it was exciting!

Ush1

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This is the point though!! For all Spain's technical competence, the games they are involved in are far from satisfying. You like seeing lots of pass and move and retention of possession. Other people find shots on goal and drama at either end to be beautiful.

I just want to be entertained given that my country is not in the tournament. Spain aren't really sorting me out to that end. The rest is irrelevant.

It isn't though. If you watch the competition Spain are playing teams that set out to stop Spains method of playing, rather than playing their own game.

The point is that Spain are trying to do what most people see as the right things DESPITE the other team not wanting to let them. As have been said numerous times, this is not Spains fault. They are not obligated to score 5 goals a game, especially when teams just really aren't interested in getting into a passing game with them.

If you like other things about football such as drama or being fufilled in some other way like counter attacking, that's up to you personally. But for people who like lots of passing and doing what they think are the right things, Spain come the closest of any team. They are perfectly entitled to fawn.

Zebra3

prinz wrote: »

Last night's match was a dull affair for the most part which the better team won in the end.

:D:D

davyjose

Frisbee wrote: »

All the naysayers are spot on, Spain are boring to watch, I mean, where are all the hopeless punts into the box and 6 foot plus players? Would they be able to play at Wigan on a wet and windy December night? I think not. The likes of Sam Allardyce and Gary Megson should be at the pinnacle of international management, they know how to get a game going, especially when playing teams that 'don't like it up 'em'

One nil to the Arsenal Espana

Boring, boring spain

Ush1

prinz wrote: »

I can go link the other examples from this morning too, because I dared suggest Spain weren't superb last night, automatically I don't understand football.... it's BS. As if this Spanish side have become the embodiment of the game.



No one suggested you should, but it gets comical when you start overlooking obvious weaknesses and describing their exploits in hyperbole.

Last night's match was a dull affair for the most part which the better team won in the end. Come on here this morning and suddenly it was a 'masterclass' 'superb' etc.

I have no problem with people who like other aspects of the game, but just come out and say it then. Don't come up with workarounds for not liking Spain. If you like fast rush football or other aspects, cool. If you like lots of passing, Spain does what it says on the tin.

I don't know if it was a masterclass but I think they could have scored a few more last night. International football has become very cagey, especially in this WC, and withs Spains rep teams don't want to go at them so you end up with low scoring games.

In saying all this, I don't think Spain have been as good as in 2008 either.

SantryRed

I was just thinking.

Everyone of Spain's games this World Cup has been like the 2009 CL Semi Final between Barcelona and Chelsea. In that game, Chelsea did the exact same as every other team has done against Spain in this World Cup. Yet, strangely, in that instance everyone wanted Barcelona to win as Chelsea were seen as killing the game, but now it's the complete opposite.

I don't get that