Spain

prinz

Ush1 wrote: »

I don't know if it was a masterclass but I think they could have scored a few more last night. ..

This is just it, Switzerland could have scored a few more against Spain earlier on in this competition. I didn't hear any Spanish fans fawning over the Swiss for their superb performance etc. If Spain play brilliantly and win brilliantly great, when they play crap and scrape a win, apparently they are still brilliant.... Tell it like it is. Germany have played some brilliant football in earlier matches but were terrible last night. For some reason some Spanish supporters seem incapable of accepting any sort of fault with the Spanish team..ever...

Boskowski

I grant them that they are a great side and they perfected what they do and it works and they deserve a title. And it takes slick and skillful players to make that system work.
Spain had always played like that, but years ago they weren't good enough at it to smother a game like that. Rather than change their approach they opted to perfect what they've always been doing. And now they are good enough so that's what they do.

But it wouldn't produce a game that I would rank personally as a great game to watch. It's like watching a python suffocating a rabbit over 20 minutes.

Ush1

prinz wrote: »

This is just it, Switzerland could have scored a few more against Spain earlier on in this competition. I didn't hear any Spanish fans fawning over the Swiss for their superb performance etc. If Spain play brilliantly and win brilliantly great, when they play crap and scrape a win, apparently they are still brilliant.... Tell it like it is. Germany have played some brilliant football in earlier matches but were terrible last night. For some reason some Spanish supporters seem incapable of accepting any sort of fault with the Spanish team..ever...

I think that's generalising Spanish fans abit to be fair.

They didn't fawn over the Swiss because it's probably not how they like the game to be played. It was obviously effective, but so are Rory Delaps throw ins.

LuckyLloyd

Ush1 wrote: »

I think that's generalising Spanish fans abit to be fair.

They didn't fawn over the Swiss because it's probably not how they like the game to be played. It was obviously effective, but so are Rory Delaps throw ins.

It's a blinkered view, the inability to accept being beaten by good tactics, defense and determination. Just look at how graceful Barca were when they were devoured by 10 man Inter in the CL. No doubt they'll throw a strop if the Netherlands win on Sunday.

prinz

Ush1 wrote: »

They didn't fawn over the Swiss because it's probably not how they like the game to be played.

I guess they don't 'understand football' then. Like I said earlier Spain were effective last night, but apparently that doesn't go far enough for some. They were effective and got their win, fair dues. Come on here and suddenly they were superb giving the Germans a 'masterclass'. I admit it's not every Spanish fan but it's hilarious at the same time.

20goto10

I was disappointed Germany did not get more physical with them. A few hard tackles would sort Spain out. Watch how Holland do it on Sunday Holland will be world champions imo.

#15

Frisbee wrote: »

All the naysayers are spot on, Spain are boring to watch, I mean, where are all the hopeless punts into the box and 6 foot plus players? Would they be able to play at Wigan on a wet and windy December night? I think not. The likes of Sam Allardyce and Gary Megson should be at the pinnacle of international management, they know how to get a game going, especially when playing teams that 'don't like it up 'em'

I know you are being sarcastic, but this is a common (serious) retort by many Spain fans.

If you don't like their short passing game and favour a quicker style of play, then the automatic assumption is that you favour long ball styles.

There is a happy medium - teams like Real Madrid, Man Utd and Brazil play quicker, more direct games. Their passing is of high quality as well - it's obviously not on the level of Spain or Barca though.

I find Spain to be quite boring - a continuous stream of short slow passes. I can appreciate the wonderful movement and the intelligence of the play - I do not have to like it though. It bores me.

Spain use passing as a tactic to wear down the opposition over the course of the game. Other teams use passing as a means of creating chances. There is a difference between the two styles. Spain will pass up a good chance in order to create a great chance, which may or may not come. It's over-cautious IMO.

Just to add, I love watching Barcelona play, they have a much more dynamic and entertaining style than this Spain team.

This Spain team is a slow, grind-it-out team. Barcelona are nothing of the sort, despite playing a similar style.

The style of play is not the main problem for me, it's the monotonous way they go about implementing it.

Ush1

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It's a blinkered view, the inability to accept being beaten by good tactics, defense and determination. Just look at how graceful Barca were when they were devoured by 10 man Inter in the CL. No doubt they'll throw a strop if the Netherlands win on Sunday.

Who are you blaming there? Wasn't Barca players that turned on the sprinklers.

Isn't this a different argument anyway?

As I said, if you like what Spain bring to the party, and alot of people do, you're dead right to applaud them.

Ush1

prinz wrote: »

I guess they don't 'understand football' then. Like I said earlier Spain were effective last night, but apparently that doesn't go far enough for some. They were effective and got their win, fair dues. Come on here and suddenly they were superb giving the Germans a 'masterclass'. I admit it's not every Spanish fan but it's hilarious at the same time.

I wouldn't say someone doesn't understand football, but try to be clear on the aspects of football you like. I mean, the aspects that you truely love about the game above all else.

#15

Ush1 wrote: »

It isn't though. If you watch the competition Spain are playing teams that set out to stop Spains method of playing, rather than playing their own game.

The point is that Spain are trying to do what most people see as the right things DESPITE the other team not wanting to let them. As have been said numerous times, this is not Spains fault.

It is. They continuously recycle possession as a tactical manouevre. They will pass up a good chance in order to to try and create a better one. They over-do things.

Spain's style of play is deliberately designed to force teams back into their own half. It's not a coincidence that every team ends up pinned back in their own half.

A high pressing game and endless recycling of possession is designed to keep teams in their own half. It is Spain;s fault, because it is their gameplan.

Not that they are wrong to do it, it is working. But people don't have to like it.

Barcelona are so much better for the reason that people like Messi and Alves penetrate and create a natural end to all the possession. Spain don't have players that can 'finish' a cycle, and so they recycle possession.

Again and again and again.

Ush1

#15 wrote: »

It is. They continuously recycle possession as a tactical manouevre. They will pass up a good chance in order to to try and create a better one. They over-do things.

Spain's style of play is deliberately designed to force teams back into their own half. It's not a coincidence that every team ends up pinned back in their own half.

A high pressing game and endless recycling of possession is designed to keep teams in their own half. It is Spain;s fault, because it is their gameplan.

Not that they are wrong to do it, it is working. But people don't have to like it.

Barcelona are so much better for the reason that people like Messi and Alves penetrate and create a natural end to all the possession. Spain don't have players that can 'finish' a cycle, and so they recycle possession.

Again and again and again.

Yes, as I said originally, they play exactly like Barca without Messi. I never said you had to like it.

Warper

SantryRed wrote: »

I've been reading through the Semi Final match thread and the final thread and I'm amazed at the amount of people who have a problem with how Spain play football

They keep the ball on the ground and retain possession and probe the defence until they find their opening. What is wrong with that? It's a joy to watch!

Spain play like that because they are technically superior than most teams. Teams just cannot get the ball off them. I think they are a pleasure to watch though they can over-elaborate at times looking for the perfect pass. Barcelona play the same way but Barcelona are better at it and are a better team than Spain. After all Barca have the best in the player in Messi. It is the same people that hate Barcelona that are now getting on Spain's backs. I think they are just jealous because Spain simply out-pass technically inferior teams. You can see why all of Spains best players play in Spain which is a much more technical league compared to the hoof and hope physical Engish league. We all saw how technically retarded the English players are, they couldnt string 4 passes together but if you rather that sort of football well, its your choice. Give me quality every day.

parker kent

Ush1 wrote: »

Yes, as I said originally, they play exactly like Barca without Messi. I never said you had to like it.

Well this post to another poster could have been construed as saying that

Ush1 wrote: »

Oh and if you can't fawn over a team that you believe play the game the right way, who can you fawn over? Or are you just not really that into football?

#15

Ush1 wrote: »

Yes, as I said originally, they play exactly like Barca without Messi. I never said you had to like it.

Honestly, I didn't read through the whole thread.:)

#15

Warper wrote: »

It is the same people that hate Barcelona that are now getting on Spain's backs.

Not true.

I love to watch Barca, hate Spain.

I think they are just jealous because Spain simply out-pass technically inferior teams.

Jealous?

Nonsense.

bullpost

I think part of the problem is Torres not being fit/on-form.
If he were Spain would score more goals and he'd give them a cutting edge which is now lacking.

L'prof

Their passing ability and ball retention is second to none, but I'm afraid I do find them a bit boring at this tournament. I guess they're really missing a fully fit Torres and Fabregas getting more game time as I'm pretty sure I enjoyed watching them at the Euros, they just seem to suck the life out of the games with their possession.

LuckyLloyd

#15 wrote: »

I know you are being sarcastic, but this is a common (serious) retort by many Spain fans.

If you don't like their short passing game and favour a quicker style of play, then the automatic assumption is that you favour long ball styles.

There is a happy medium - teams like Real Madrid, Man Utd and Brazil play quicker, more direct games. Their passing is of high quality as well - it's obviously not on the level of Spain or Barca though.

I find Spain to be quite boring - a continuous stream of short slow passes. I can appreciate the wonderful movement and the intelligence of the play - I do not have to like it though. It bores me.

Spain use passing as a tactic to wear down the opposition over the course of the game. Other teams use passing as a means of creating chances. There is a difference between the two styles. Spain will pass up a good chance in order to create a great chance, which may or may not come. It's over-cautious IMO.

Just to add, I love watching Barcelona play, they have a much more dynamic and entertaining style than this Spain team.

This Spain team is a slow, grind-it-out team. Barcelona are nothing of the sort, despite playing a similar style.

The style of play is not the main problem for me, it's the monotonous way they go about implementing it.

Superb post, nail on head.

parker kent

L'prof wrote: »

Their passing ability and ball retention is second to none, but I'm afraid I do find them a bit boring at this tournament. I guess they're really missing a fully fit Torres and Fabregas getting more game time as I'm pretty sure I enjoyed watching them at the Euros, they just seem to suck the life out of the games with their possession.

I think it has been due to the amount of central midfielders in the team. If Pedro and/or Silva had played more games they would have had a slightly different style.

20goto10

I think people are reading too much into Spain. They are masters at keeping the ball. But there is a lot more to football than just keeping the ball. You have to give them credit for using their one talent to take them all the way to the final and if a team was to be only good at one thing I would pick possession over everything else. The opposition cannot hurt you if they don't have the ball.

But Holland have the ability to break up their passing game and to get the ball off them. The dutch tackle hard and the Spanish cannot handle even the slightest of touches without rolling on the floor. Without their passing game they will have nothing.

LuckyLloyd

If Holland do win there will be an apocalyptic reaction in the media and on places like here. Go chaos imo!

The Recliner

Ush1 wrote: »

If you like other things about football such as drama or being fufilled in some other way like counter attacking, that's up to you personally. But for people who like lots of passing and doing what they think are the right things, Spain come the closest of any team. They are perfectly entitled to fawn.

As a great man once said "if you want entertainment, go to the cinema Baby"

I seem to be in the minority though, I found last nights game fascinating, watching Spain trying to find a way past the Germans while at the same time working hard to not let the Germans play it their way

and I wanted Germany to win, not because of some dislike of the Spanish but because I had enjoyed their football more during the tournament but I can appreciate that the Spanish fully deserved their win last night, they were superb though not entertaining in the normal sense

Pro. F

To all the people complaining about the Spanish diving and acting the bollix so much. I agree that it's disgusting. I presume ye were all also disgusted by the other 90% of teams that have been at it in this competition. Germany and Ghana were the only teams in the later stages that I can think of who weren't totally repulsive in that way.

#15 wrote: »

There is a happy medium - teams like Real Madrid, Man Utd and Brazil play quicker, more direct games. Their passing is of high quality as well - it's obviously not on the level of Spain or Barca though.

I find Spain to be quite boring - a continuous stream of short slow passes. I can appreciate the wonderful movement and the intelligence of the play - I do not have to like it though. It bores me.

Spain use passing as a tactic to wear down the opposition over the course of the game. Other teams use passing as a means of creating chances. There is a difference between the two styles. Spain will pass up a good chance in order to create a great chance, which may or may not come. It's over-cautious IMO.

#15 wrote: »

They continuously recycle possession as a tactical manouevre. They will pass up a good chance in order to to try and create a better one. They over-do things.

Spain's style of play is deliberately designed to force teams back into their own half. It's not a coincidence that every team ends up pinned back in their own half.

A high pressing game and endless recycling of possession is designed to keep teams in their own half. It is Spain;s fault, because it is their gameplan.

Not that they are wrong to do it, it is working.

These are good points. The key to Spainish/Catalan style is to wear down the opposition. Slowly and surely over 90 minutes or 120 or even over two legs. They tire them out and break their spirit and concede very few scoring opportunities while doing it.

The mention of Real, Man Utd and Brazil is interesting. It seems to me that they are able to draw the opposition out occasionally by having a spell where they play slightly more direct and so give the ball away more. I think it's an important part of these teams' gameplan to still be able to hold onto the ball when they need to, in order to reassert their control of the game if things are going against them (this doesn't quite apply to United in the last few seasons because they turned into a defensive team for a few seasons in Europe and still struggle to keep the ball recently). Two other teams that I've often admired for being able to mix it up like this are Croatia and Turkey. Also Czech Republic and Russia at the last Euros. I think that it is a conscious decision by at least some of the managers to play like this. Ferguson, Hiddink and most Croatian and Turkish managers anyway.

On the point of Barcelona being more entertaining to watch than Spain. It's very marginal imo. You shouldn't forget the the CL semi finals against Chelsea, Inter and United where they had the same problem of trying to break down a defensive team. Personally I have no problem with the Spanish and Catalan patient possession football.

kinaldo

I love watching Spain and am so happy right now.

The amount of moaning here is unbelievable.

¡Viva España!

Ush1

parker kent wrote: »

Well this post to another poster could have been construed as saying that

What I'm on about there is just the act of getting excited about football.

LuckyLloyd

Pro. F wrote: »

To all the people complaining about the Spanish diving and acting the bollix so much. I agree that it's disgusting. I presume ye were all also disgusted by the other 90% of teams that have been at it in this competition. Germany and Ghana were the only teams in the later stages that I can think of who weren't totally repulsive in that way.

Paraguay, Chile and Uruguay played tough but fair I thought. Japan, South Korea and the USA don't really dive at all...

_Bella_

I think there is also a sense of fate that Spains name has been written on this World Cup since 2007, no matter how they perform.

Pro. F

20goto10 wrote: »

The dutch tackle hard and the Spanish cannot handle even the slightest of touches without rolling on the floor.

Neither can the Dutch tbf. They are every bit as guilty of play acting.

I really really hope there is a good ref in the final.

Pro. F

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Paraguay, Chile and Uruguay played tough but fair I thought. Japan, South Korea and the USA don't really dive at all...

Paraguay and Uruguay are bad for diving and rolling around for no reason imo. Although I love their hard work and clean brave tackling.

I watched all Chile's games and I don't remember getting pissed off with them diving so I'll give you that.

Japan, South Korean and USA, definitely agree.

_Bella_

We should count and see which teams does the most dives! With Robben the Dutch might just grab it, but you never know Capdevilla and Ramos.

stovelid

I like their passing game, but its just the devil in me sometimes loves to see teams like them go out by chance when they fall victim to the sucker punch of a deflected hoof from a clogger team.

If only just to quieten the fawning consensus around them.

That said, I do like watching it and it was class when Xavi said they were happy that they could "express their personalities" after the game last night.

It's like a Catalan Borg or something.

Ush1

I can see how people may not like Spain for theatrics or footballing reasons or whatever, although alot may not be justified.

But what I don't get is people who don't like the fact that other people like them. How is that Spains fault? To me it smacks of typical Irish begrudgery.

20goto10

Pro. F wrote: »

Neither can the Dutch tbf. They are every bit as guilty of play acting.

I really really hope there is a good ref in the final.

True but the difference is that Spain rely on the short, fluid passing game. It's about all they have imo (and thats a good thing to have as I've said). Holland are going to get at them and tackle and if Spain do what they always do, that is hit the floor then they're going to sacrifice their fluid passing game as a result. Maybe they'll stay on their feet and take advantage of passing by tackles. Germany weren't prepared to get in and tackle from what I saw so they were obviously worried about Spain skipping past their tackles. It will be interesting game I think but its bound to be very cagey as always.

Vyse

Ush1 wrote: »

But what I don't get is people who don't like the fact that other people like them. How is that Spains fault? To me it smacks of typical Irish begrudgery.

100% agree. Spot on.

prinz

Ush1 wrote: »

But what I don't get is people who don't like the fact that other people like them. How is that Spains fault? To me it smacks of typical Irish begrudgery.

Any examples of this?

Pro. F

20goto10 wrote: »

True but the difference is that Spain rely on the short, fluid passing game. It's about all they have imo (and thats a good thing to have as I've said). Holland are going to get at them and tackle and if Spain do what they always do, that is hit the floor then they're going to sacrifice their fluid passing game as a result. Maybe they'll stay on their feet and take advantage of passing by tackles. Germany weren't prepared to get in and tackle from what I saw so they were obviously worried about Spain skipping past their tackles. It will be interesting game I think but its bound to be very cagey as always.

I completely agree that the Spanish will really struggle if they can't handle being tackled and kicked. And it would probably be the best plan for them to try and stay upright as much as possible. Both to get their passing going, as you point out, and also to actually get on the refs good side and therefore to actually get the cards that the Dutch will deserve.

To be fair to Spain, they also have a good pressing front six defence to go with their passing. But that might not worry the Dutch since they can score a goal out of no possession with either Sneijder or Robben.

I agree, it will be interesting but cagey.

Ush1

prinz wrote: »

Any examples of this?

Any post complaining of people fawning over them. I'm not gonna bother quoting anyone.

paddyismaddy

spain didnt play well in some games and still picked up wins no matter what they are now in a world cup final

prinz

Ush1 wrote: »

Any post complaining of people fawning over them. I'm not gonna bother quoting anyone.

That has nothing to do with not liking other people liking them nor begrudgery.

Pro. F

prinz wrote: »

That has nothing to do with not liking other people liking them nor begrudgery.

The people complaining about the fawning over Spain clearly have a problem with the people who like them so much - hence the derogatory word 'fawning'.

Ush1

prinz wrote: »

That has nothing to do with not liking other people liking them nor begrudgery.

How so? If you're not liking them for the sake that other people liking them annoys you?

prinz

Pro. F wrote: »

The people complaining about the fawning over Spain clearly have a problem with the people who like them so much - hence the derogatory word 'fawning'.

There's liking a team, then there's fawning. Descriptions of last night's match as a superb performance and master class falls into the latter category.

I have no issue with people liking Spain. No business of mine, but it gets irritating when people like a team so much their response is automatically OTT positive however they play in any given match, be it good, bad, or indifferent. It's not begrudgery to call that. Especially when trying to point that out today has gotten responses such as 'you don't understand football', 'were you watching the match?' etc etc.

It's irrelevant whether the team concerned is Spain, or Bohs, or Aberdeen.

_Bella_

I think the point is some people find Spains way of playing boring but then their fans go on about how theres something wrong with you not liking Spain and how they are clearly are of superior intellect which just ends up with you turned off Spain even more.

Dublin_Gunner

In my opinion, the nay-sayers are severely lacking in technical football knowledge, or have never played the game to a decent standard, or both.

To see what Spain do, and to understand the technical ability of the players to play how they play would not have anyone thinking they are 'boring' to watch.

The quick 1 and 2 touch passing, the sudden switch of pace, switching play to the other side of the field with precision and speed, awareness of where the other players are is almost telepathic looking at them.

And then when they don't have the ball, they track back so quickly, and try to retrieve the situation. Everyone sticks to their task and doesn't hope 'someone else will do it'.

They are a fantastic team. All they are missing is the cutting edge up front, due to their other main striker Torres, being unfit.

Dr Galen

The comparisions with this Spanish team and Barca are pretty apt tbh. Barca do play a very similar style, and with Messi, they have that cutting edge. The issue with Spain right now is that Torres just isn't firing on all cylinders. Without him as a spearhead up front, functioning properly, they lose their cutting edge and so we get moments like last night were they are arsing about passing it sideways back and forth the 18 yard box. While I'm a fan of the Spanish I would be the first to admit that by times even I've gotten bored watching them this WC. You have to admit though the passing and moving, finding a yard of space here and there is pretty awesome.

On the playacting thing, well its pretty sickening to watch. Its not an excuse that everyone does it. LL mentioned the Americans. They didn't do it, they just get up and keep on going. Diving around the place like a pansy is one of the biggest blights on the modern game. The really sad thing is that its catching on at all levels. Was down watching a schoolboy game the other day, and the i saw the kids at it, then running and shouting at the ref

tdv123

Germany now they were an over-hyped boring team.

Sat back for most of there games against Argentina, England & Spain & then just tried to hit them on the counter attack. The old Italian way of doing things which from what I can remember everybody called boring back then.

Shanotheslayer

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

In my opinion, the nay-sayers are severely lacking in technical football knowledge, or have never played the game to a decent standard, or both.

To see what Spain do, and to understand the technical ability of the players to play how they play would not have anyone thinking they are 'boring' to watch.

The quick 1 and 2 touch passing, the sudden switch of pace, switching play to the other side of the field with precision and speed, awareness of where the other players are is almost telepathic looking at them.

And then when they don't have the ball, they track back so quickly, and try to retrieve the situation. Everyone sticks to their task and doesn't hope 'someone else will do it'.

They are a fantastic team. All they are missing is the cutting edge up front, due to their other main striker Torres, being unfit.

Post of the thread tbh. To do what Spain do when playing football is incredible. One touch passing and moving into clear space is extremely difficult when playing football. Players like Xavi make it look like a piece of pish

pickarooney

Ush1 wrote: »

Yes, as I said originally, they play exactly like Barca without Messi. I never said you had to like it.

They play a bit like the England rugby team of '93 actually.

Ush1

Dr Galen wrote: »

The comparisions with this Spanish team and Barca are pretty apt tbh. Barca do play a very similar style, and with Messi, they have that cutting edge. The issue with Spain right now is that Torres just isn't firing on all cylinders. Without him as a spearhead up front, functioning properly, they lose their cutting edge and so we get moments like last night were they are arsing about passing it sideways back and forth the 18 yard box. While I'm a fan of the Spanish I would be the first to admit that by times even I've gotten bored watching them this WC. You have to admit though the passing and moving, finding a yard of space here and there is pretty awesome.

On the playacting thing, well its pretty sickening to watch. Its not an excuse that everyone does it. LL mentioned the Americans. They didn't do it, they just get up and keep on going. Diving around the place like a pansy is one of the biggest blights on the modern game. The really sad thing is that its catching on at all levels. Was down watching a schoolboy game the other day, and the i saw the kids at it, then running and shouting at the ref

I agree on the diving thing. But what is more prevalent in Ireland and the UK is the acceptance to kick lumps out of one another and of coaches to discourage any form of expression or "fannying about" on the ball.

Dr Galen

Ush1 wrote: »

I agree on the diving thing. But what is more prevalent in Ireland and the UK is the acceptance to kick lumps out of one another and of coaches to discourage any form of expression or "fannying about" on the ball.

Would agree on that for sure. While its important to teach young ones how to take a kick and get on with it, and that like it or not, football is a physical game, it shouldn't override everything we do.

The fannying about is a more complex issue. More often than not, people do fanny about with the ball. Thats because the basics of passing, looking for pass and awareness of the players around you isn't fully hammered home. You thus get a player stuck with the ball caught in two minds, hoof it or fanny about. Its cart before horse situation really. teach the kids how to use the ball properly and they will. Its been said before, by many with a better grasp of it than me, but sticking 11 year olds on a huge pitch is not the greatest idea, small pitches, small goals, impress on them the need for good control and vision and things will improve.