Spain

flahavaj

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Why would it mean that.

It has been suggested in this thread and elsewhere that this is the case. (Not by yourself I don't think. my internet connection is too slow to trawl back ten pages to find the quote).

flahavaj

Ush1 wrote: »

How profound.

Anyway, most people enjoy attacking, possession football, so many enjoy watching Spain. It's not to do with right or wrong, it's what you personally enjoy.

I never quite know whether you're being sarcastic or not but you get the benefit of the doubt this time and an aul Thanks.:pac:

Ush1

flahavaj wrote: »

I never quite know whether you're being sarcastic or not but you get the benefit of the doubt this time and an aul Thanks.:pac:

Ah no it is a decent point, some people just like certain styles of play though regardless. Might not work every game and not even be effective alot of the time.

Pro. F

davyjose wrote: »

Fair enough, but to me, it's not great to watch. They are incredibly good at what they do, holding on to the ball, pressing other teams, but lets not pretend they've unlocked the secret to the universe. They are effective, and excellent, but quite boring to watch. Sure, they dominate possession, but last I checked there was only one criterion used to decide the winner of matches, and that's goals. And Spain have hardly blown us away in that regard. They create very little for a team with so much possession, because they play "safe". The first rule is: don't give it away. The second rule is: don't give it away. The third rule ... etc, etc.

They are probably the best team in the world at the moment, but people seem to speak of them in the same hushed reverence as Brazil '70, or Holland '78. That could not be further from the truth, IMO.

I don't really care if you find it boring to watch. I claimed that their strategy, tactics and skill had been good and you argued against that. I can accept that people find it boring to watch - although personally I love watching it - but people who are trying to make out that they put in anything other than a good performance are taking the piss.

And you're still not acknowledging that all the possession does more than just create chances, it also keeps the other team out of the game. Considering how weak Spain's defence is and how strong Germany's attack is Spain's ability to so dramatically limit the German attacks was a huge factor in them winning. Winning is about more than just the ability to score goals.

I have never thought they are as good as Brazil 70 or Holland 78 btw, and I doubt many have, so no need to worry about that.

prinz wrote: »

Credit yes, I don't think anyone would deny them that. Sycophantic praise no, they don't quite deserve that yet IMO.

The people I quoted weren't giving them their fair share of credit.

The sycophantic praise must be in your head because I don't see it around here.

pickarooney

Pro. F wrote: »

I have never thought they are as good as Brazil 70 or Holland 78 btw, and I doubt many have, so no need to worry about that.

I find it rather bizarre that a team that failed in its most important match is regularly held up as something to emulate while the actual World Cup winners are never mentioned.

prinz

Pro. F wrote: »

- but people who are trying to make out that they put in anything other than a good performance are taking the piss.

The sycophantic praise must be in your head because I don't see it around here.

See above you described the Spanish performance as good. Fair enough. It has also been described on this forum as 'superb' and a 'masterclass'.. to me that's going too far.

Pro. F

pickarooney wrote: »

I find it rather bizarre that a team that failed in its most important match is regularly held up as something to emulate while the actual World Cup winners are never mentioned.

One of the best teams ever at doing a certain thing (passing and moving) so they're like an archetype of football strategy or style. If any other, less dutchmental and bitchy, team had had their skill and ability they wouldn't have fallen into chaos and in fighting and probably would have won two world cups.

pickarooney

Pro. F wrote: »

One of the best teams ever at doing a certain thing (passing and moving) so they're like an archetype of football strategy or style. If any other, less dutchmental and bitchy, team had had their skill and ability they wouldn't have fallen into chaos and in fighting and probably would have won two world cups.

Yes but this is, I think what a lot of people are getting at with respect to Spain*. You can play pretty football all day long but as long as you fail at the basic premise - outscoring the opposition - it doesn't amount to a hill of beans.


*Truthfully this only applies to the opening match, but 1-0 wins are never all that comfortable.

eZe^

This Spanish team is enjoyable to watch, they just haven't clicked in the attacking 1/3 of the pitch as well as they have in the past two years. This is down to a number of things, Torres not being close to fit, Iniesta being pushed to LW too often, and playing two deep lying CMFs. They lack width, and their main outlet for goals is Villa, this means that they are regularly stifled in the final third. I think it's a credit to the team, that they can afford to have all these factors play against them but still reach the first final in their countries history.


Just watch them during Euro 08 or Barca in 08/09 and you can see how brilliant possession football can be. Spain have just not been able to hit 5th gear this tournament. The introduction of Silva/ Mata/ Llorente could be just what they need, but trust me, this team will be entertaining the masses again very soon.

Pro. F

prinz wrote: »

See above you described the Spanish performance as good. Fair enough. It has also been described on this forum as 'superb' and a 'masterclass'.. to me that's going too far.

Well I've gone as far as to describe the performance against Germany as excellent and I would agree that it was a master class in possession football. I think this argument could be endless.

Edit: actually, you know what scratch the master class bit. A master class would have been if they got that second goal on the counter but Pedro fùcked up. They are that one player short at the moment. I don't know what goes on with Pedro, one second he's brilliant the next he's shìte.

Leiva

Pro. F wrote: »

Well I've gone as far as to describe the performance against Germany as excellent and I would agree that it was a master class in possession football. I think this argument could be endless.

+1
I agree I will go as far as to say "excellent" against Germany and under rated .

**** game to watch but .

Dublin_Gunner

Pro. F wrote: »

Well I've gone as far as to describe the performance against Germany as excellent and I would agree that it was a master class in possession football. I think this argument could be endless.

Edit: actually, you know what scratch the master class bit. A master class would have been if they got that second goal on the counter but Pedro fùcked up. They are that one player short at the moment. I don't know what goes on with Pedro, one second he's brilliant the next he's shìte.

Pedro = rush of blood to the head. Nothing more. Should have passed it, to give his unfit, out of form, lacking in confidence striker and easy goal. Would have made the world of a difference to Torres IMO. But, he was selfish.

Had a good game besides that though.

I thought Spain were excellent against Germany. They're missing one of their starting strikers and goal scorers (Torres), and still managed to completely outplay one of the most clinical teams in the tournament.

Some people might not like looking at the style of football they play, and while its not the most exciting, I think it incredible how they hold onto the ball so well, and pass and move so quickly.

Pro. F

pickarooney wrote: »

Yes but this is, I think what a lot of people are getting at with respect to Spain*. You can play pretty football all day long but as long as you fail at the basic premise - outscoring the opposition - it doesn't amount to a hill of beans.


*Truthfully this only applies to the opening match, but 1-0 wins are never all that comfortable.

They won the last international tournament and they're in the final of this one. They also had a good qualifying campaign iirc. So I wouldn't get worked up over one loss and a few 1-0 victories. They've played some tough teams in this wc and they've had to accommodate Torres' lack of form. All they have to do now is put in another good performance and they've got a great chance. I'm still not seeing much evidence of any sort of serious deficiency.

pickarooney

Pro. F wrote: »

They won the last international tournament and they're in the final of this one. They also had a good qualifying campaign iirc. So I wouldn't get worked up over one loss and a few 1-0 victories. They've played some tough teams in this wc and they've had to accommodate Torres' lack of form. All they have to do now is put in another good performance and they've got a great chance. I'm still not seeing much evidence of any sort of serious deficiency.

Exactly. Just like Holland (except the bit about winning the last international tournament )

aidan24326

Ush1 wrote: »

They play exactly like Barca sans Messi.

Which isn't at all surprising since Xavi and Iniesta control the tempo of how Barca play, Xavi in particular, and they seem to do the same with Spain.

Spain have now kept 3 clean sheets in a row with a defence that everyone agrees is not the greatest. But they keep possession of the ball so well that it severely limits the opposition in terms of creating chances. You can't score if you haven't got the ball seems to be Spain's basic approach.

It mighn't always be great to watch but it's damned effective. England's big problem was they couldn't hold onto the ball for any length of time without someone giving it away, or lumping it up to Heskey so he could shin it back to the opposition. I'd rather watch Spain play than watch that sort of sh1te.

davyjose

Pro. F wrote: »

I don't really care if you find it boring to watch. I claimed that their strategy, tactics and skill had been good and you argued against that. I can accept that people find it boring to watch.

And you're still not acknowledging that all the possession does more than just create chances, it also keeps the other team out of the game.

I don't care if you don't care ... etc etc

Nope. I said that despite their much vaunted, stylish build-up play, they scored from a corner. I'm in no doubt about the ability and talent Spain possess, I just don't find it good to watch, and you're right about the second point. In fact, after 6 matches with 7 goals to their name, I would say stifling the other team has been by far their most effective tactic in reaching the final.

Dublin_Gunner

davyjose wrote: »

I don't care if you don't care ... etc etc

Nope. I said that despite their much vaunted, stylish build-up play, they scored from a corner. I'm in no doubt about the ability and talent Spain possess, I just don't find it good to watch, and you're right about the second point. In fact, after 6 matches with 7 goals to their name, I would say stifling the other team has been by far their most effective tactic in reaching the final.

To be honest, all that shows is that they're also good at more direct tactics. Just because they play possession / pass / move / flair doesn't mean they can't score from set pieces?? If anything, that shows they even more to their game.

And while yes, it was from a set piece, it was a good delivery, and a fantastic header. 'Keeper had no chance.

steelcityblues

Nothing against Spain - I just read a fair few ignorant comments before the semis about how the winner would not come from Holland/Uruguay, even though both of these teams historically have a fine international pedigree. Always liked to see Holland get to the finals, but even if I didn't, these type of comments would make me cheer them on for the laugh.

The same people were convinced that Germany-Spain would be a better match, but don't think it really was any better.

flas

parker kent wrote: »

From a footballing perspective they are magnificent. They have easily been the best team in the world over the past 4 years. They dictate 95% of the games they play and always try to keep their short passing game.

However, they have players that are not easy to like. Their celebrations during Bastian Schweinsteiger's interview after Euro 2008 is a good example of this (You Tube it if you have not seen it)

Whilst most teams dive, they seem to excel in it. That is an even bigger crime for such a talented team. They are good enough to not need to rely on the dark arts. That may seem like a double standard, but Spain could be a team remembered like some of the great teams from the past if they were more like-able. They are poor winners (gloating, showboating) and poor losers (watch them after the Swiss game, Barca after the Inter game or Fabregas whenever anything goes against him at all ).

From a footballing perspective, I cannot fault them. I have the greatest respect for Xavi and Iniesta. But I am not as fond of them as I should be given how good a team they are.

just seen this there,what a complete and utter shower of pricks! hopefully robben teaches capedevilla a leason sunday after his diving and acting like a bitch in the earlier rounds! cant remember who it was he dived and got sent off but that really annoyed me, i know robben doesnt exactly always stay on his feet but hope he skins him sunday!which i think he will easily!

steelcityblues

flas wrote: »

just seen this there,what a complete and utter shower of pricks! hopefully robben teaches capedevilla a leason sunday after his diving and acting like a bitch in the earlier rounds! cant remember who it was he dived and got sent off but that really annoyed me, i know robben doesnt exactly always stay on his feet but hope he skins him sunday!which i think he will easily!

It was Bruno Alves of Portugal who got sent off, after Capedevilla's blatant over-reaction!

parker kent

flas wrote: »

just seen this there,what a complete and utter shower of pricks! hopefully robben teaches capedevilla a leason sunday after his diving and acting like a bitch in the earlier rounds! cant remember who it was he dived and got sent off but that really annoyed me, i know robben doesnt exactly always stay on his feet but hope he skins him sunday!which i think he will easily!

That dancing celebration was a disgrace. They had zero respect for their opponents. I hope the Dutch do a conga line through their changing room

eagle eye

All these nitpickers really annoy me.

You could go through both sides and give out yards about any number of players for things they have done in the past.

I personally hope the best team wins, I think Spain are the best but I am not going to underestimate Holland who still have a 100% record in this World Cup all through qualifying and the World Cup finals.

davyjose

eagle eye wrote: »

Holland who still have a 100% record in this World Cup all through qualifying and the World Cup finals.

I forgot about that. It would be an incredible achievement if they win this with a 100% win record.

C'mon Holland!!!

L'prof

parker kent wrote: »

Their celebrations during Bastian Schweinsteiger's interview after Euro 2008 is a good example of this (You Tube it if you have not seen it)

flas wrote: »

just seen this there,what a complete and utter shower of pricks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBfaxp0q1T8

:eek: I'm surprised by that, very poor form indeed! Can't believe I didn't hear about it at the time! I'm not too bothered who wins the final really as long as it's an enjoyable game to watch, but if Spain aren't a bit more incisive this time out I'll be rooting for Holland!

pickarooney

L'prof wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBfaxp0q1T8

:eek: I'm surprised by that, very poor form indeed! Can't believe I didn't hear about it at the time! I'm not too bothered who wins the final really as long as it's an enjoyable game to watch, but if Spain aren't a bit more incisive this time out I'll be rooting for Holland!

FYYT

L'prof

pickarooney wrote: »

FYYT

Yeah, not sure what happened there...should have worked!

FUNKY LOVER

UGHHH,im amazed how many people still think spain are such a team to be admired.

FUNKY LOVER

do they ever stfu.sick to death of their BS at this stage.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/worldcup2010/3048467/Xavi-Cesc-Fabregas-heart-is-already-at-Barcelona.html

Shanotheslayer

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

do they ever stfu.sick to death of their BS at this stage.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/worldcup2010/3048467/Xavi-Cesc-Fabregas-heart-is-already-at-Barcelona.html

Seems spot on to me on what Xavi said.

#15

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Seems spot on to me on what Xavi said.

It's actually bang out of order.

FUNKY LOVER

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Seems spot on to me on what Xavi said.

BLA BLA.respect is something obviously lacking.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

#15

Obaraten wrote: »

Come on Spain!!!!!!!!!!!

Boooooooo!!!!!!!;)

Bodhisopha

I doubt Fabregas minds Xavi saying those things, infact i'd say he welcomes it.

#15

Bodhisopha wrote: »

I doubt Fabregas minds Xavi saying those things, infact i'd say he welcomes it.

I wonder if Arsenal welcome it?

Bodhisopha

#15 wrote: »

I wonder if Arsenal welcome it?

Probably not. The truth is often a bitter pill to swallow. That said, i don't see why Xavi should care about Arsenals feelings.

#15

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Probably not. The truth is often a bitter pill to swallow. That said, i don't see why Xavi should care about Arsenals feelings.

Who said he should?

It's still out of order, whether he cares about Arsenal's feelings or not.

L'prof

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Probably not. The truth is often a bitter pill to swallow. That said, i don't see why Xavi should care about Arsenals feelings.

The truth is they need to put up or shut up. I don't mind the fact that he's linked, he'll eventually go there...not for a paltry £30m though!

Bodhisopha

L'prof wrote: »

The truth is they need to put up or shut up. I don't mind the fact that he's linked, he'll eventually go there...not for a paltry £30m though!

Well i'm sure it's the reporters putting the question to Xavi, he's simply giving his honest opinions. Honest to a fault is our Xavi.

L'prof

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Well i'm sure it's the reporters putting the question to Xavi, he's simply giving his honest opinions. Honest to a fault is our Xavi.

Right...and he was only too happy to happy to regurgitate what he's been saying for the last month, regardless of whether the question was put to him or not, he knows Fabregas is under contact and should have a bit of respect. They'll get their man sooner or later, their constant harping isn't going to help the situation though!

CorkMan

L'prof wrote: »

Right...and he was only too happy to happy to regurgitate what he's been saying for the last month, regardless of whether the question was put to him or not, he knows Fabregas is under contact and should have a bit of respect. They'll get their man sooner or later, their constant harping isn't going to help the situation though!

It'll make Arsene Wenger pick up the phone and leave 500k in the airport.

Boskowski

As an afterthought I'd like to say that I believe that this Spain team is not going to hold on to a dominant spell as some already suggested with them being favorites for the Euros 2012 and the next WC in 2014.

I believe that Spain is playing a very ineffective and vulnerable style of play and that it took all of the technical ability of that 'golden generation' team to make it work. They pass it around the box for ages, it seems their midfielders have almost forgotten how to shoot, they're almost trying to carry it into the goal. It's the same short-passing style through the middle that they've been playing all through the decades and that never got them anywhere.
But Spain was stubborn it seems. Instead of making their style more effective, they (almost) perfected it. And it took near perfection too to win thew WC with it. To achieve what Spain achieved with that playing style proves the enormous technical quality of that Spanish team.

But IMHO possession for the sake of it is farty, you need to make superiority count quickly and be unpredictable to be effective and deadly. The old Ajax school springs to mind or the Barcelona of the Laudrups, Stoichkovs and Romarios.
Therefore I don't think Spain style is here to last, it's too much hard work, it's very vulnerable to a more 'for-the-throat' style of play, teams will cop on - the Dutch nearly had it. I think you take just one or two names out of that Spanish team and they wouldn't have enough quality in the squad to keep it up.

L'prof

Boskowski wrote: »

As an afterthought I'd like to say that I believe that this Spain team is not going to hold on to a dominant spell as some already suggested with them being favorites for the Euros 2012 and the next WC in 2014.

I believe that Spain is playing a very ineffective and vulnerable style of play and that it took all of the technical ability of that 'golden generation' team to make it work. They pass it around the box for ages, it seems their midfielders have almost forgotten how to shoot, they're almost trying to carry it into the goal. It's the same short-passing style through the middle that they've been playing all through the decades and that never got them anywhere.
But Spain was stubborn it seems. Instead of making their style more effective, they (almost) perfected it. And it took near perfection too to win thew WC with it. To achieve what Spain achieved with that playing style proves the enormous technical quality of that Spanish team.

But IMHO possession for the sake of it is farty, you need to make superiority count quickly and be unpredictable to be effective and deadly. The old Ajax school springs to mind or the Barcelona of the Laudrups, Stoichkovs and Romarios.
Therefore I don't think Spain style is here to last, it's too much hard work, it's very vulnerable to a more 'for-the-throat' style of play, teams will cop on - the Dutch nearly had it. I think you take just one or two names out of that Spanish team and they wouldn't have enough quality in the squad to keep it up.

Spain with a fully fit Torres and giving Fabregas more gametime (even starting him every game) would have made a world of difference.

patmac

L'prof wrote: »

Spain with a fully fit Torres and giving Fabregas more gametime (even starting him every game) would have made a world of difference.

and the fact that if Webb had the bottle to show a red card to Van Bommell earlier, might have opened things up.
Anyway I think this Spanish team is up there with the all time greats having won back to back major championships and the fact that i backed them in both. Superb team. As for the histrionics they are no worse than any other team in this WC, it is just depressingly becoming part and parcel of the game now.

eZe^

Disagree with you, Spain were particularly toothless in this tournament, but they were fantastic at the euros. They slayed Russia and Villa scored a hat-trick in a group stage game. The difference is that Del Bosque is too conservative in his midfield choice, despite having the best midfielders in the world, he insists that two deep lying DMF is key. He just needs to have faith in the fact that Iniesta/ Xavi/ Fabregas will hold onto the ball effortlessly regardless. Play with Silva/ Navas/ Mata/ Pedro on the wings, and move Iniesta back into midfield (at the expense of Sergi or Xabi) and you'll see a different Spain.

Boskowski

patmac wrote: »

As for the histrionics they are no worse than any other team in this WC, it is just depressingly becoming part and parcel of the game now.

Actually the USA didn't engage at all in that sort of stuff and also Germany behaved pretty well towards the ref. Spain weren't the worst at it - that trophy undoubtedly goes to Argentina - but they were up there with the worst.

pickarooney

Chile, Portugal and the Ivory Coast were also pathetic. The four Asian sides were pretty honest, all things considered.

L'prof

eZe^ wrote: »

Disagree with you, Spain were particularly toothless in this tournament, but they were fantastic at the euros. They slayed Russia and Villa scored a hat-trick in a group stage game. The difference is that Del Bosque is too conservative in his midfield choice, despite having the best midfielders in the world, he insists that two deep lying DMF is key. He just needs to have faith in the fact that Iniesta/ Xavi/ Fabregas will hold onto the ball effortlessly regardless. Play with Silva/ Navas/ Mata/ Pedro on the wings, and move Iniesta back into midfield (at the expense of Sergi or Xabi) and you'll see a different Spain.

I'd agree with that. 8 goals in 7 games is very poor compared to 12 from 6 at the Euros! Apparently Spain needed 4 last night not to be remembered as the least prolific world cup winners! I think Busquets should have been dropped for Fabregas.

Dublin_Gunner

eZe^ wrote: »

Disagree with you, Spain were particularly toothless in this tournament, but they were fantastic at the euros. They slayed Russia and Villa scored a hat-trick in a group stage game. The difference is that Del Bosque is too conservative in his midfield choice, despite having the best midfielders in the world, he insists that two deep lying DMF is key. He just needs to have faith in the fact that Iniesta/ Xavi/ Fabregas will hold onto the ball effortlessly regardless. Play with Silva/ Navas/ Mata/ Pedro on the wings, and move Iniesta back into midfield (at the expense of Sergi or Xabi) and you'll see a different Spain.

Well you have to remember the major difference is not having Torres up front with Villa.

He obviously doesn't trust Llorente or Mata to play up alongside Villa, hence his complete change of system.

They were not toothless in qualifying, played 10, won 10, scored 28, conceded 5.

Thats a different Spain to this tournament, and the 1 major difference is Torres.

This Spanish side WILL be still very strong in 2012, and will enter the tournament as favourites, withotu a shadow of a doubt.

The next WC is a different story, unless they bring more players through. (though the team isn't that old)

Although thinking about you, you could argue Cazorla, Silva, Fabregas & Mata got more game time in the qualifiers as well, even Riera played a few games. All these players would add to a more attacking style.

eZe^

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Well you have to remember the major difference is not having Torres up front with Villa.

He obviously doesn't trust Llorente or Mata to play up alongside Villa, hence his complete change of system.

They were not toothless in qualifying, played 10, won 10, scored 28, conceded 5.

Thats a different Spain to this tournament, and the 1 major difference is Torres.

This Spanish side WILL be still very strong in 2012, and will enter the tournament as favourites, withotu a shadow of a doubt.

The next WC is a different story, unless they bring more players through. (though the team isn't that old)

Although thinking about you, you could argue Cazorla, Silva, Fabregas & Mata got more game time in the qualifiers as well, even Riera played a fair few games.

I actually disagree, I don't think Torres is necessarily the key difference at all (he's one of them). It's still the fact that two sitting midfielders are played. Torres scored maybe 6ish goals since the EC final (and 3 of those were in one game against South Africa). Silva not being played regularly is what has baffled me, he adds something different to the midfield midgets. A front 3 of Silva----Villa----Navas would be deadly imo.

Still though, 16 wins, 1 loss, 36 goals scored and 7 conceded in this WC campaign. And some people have the gall to compare them to Greece in '04. Let's see if this team can push on and really make the history books.