Spain

Boskowski

You can argue all you like about Torres and midfielders and whatnot but Spain played pretty-pretty short passing stuff through the middle as long as I can remember. And they haven't changed or are going to, they just have gotten better at it.

parker kent

Boskowski wrote: »

As an afterthought I'd like to say that I believe that this Spain team is not going to hold on to a dominant spell as some already suggested with them being favorites for the Euros 2012 and the next WC in 2014.

I believe that Spain is playing a very ineffective and vulnerable style of play and that it took all of the technical ability of that 'golden generation' team to make it work. They pass it around the box for ages, it seems their midfielders have almost forgotten how to shoot, they're almost trying to carry it into the goal. It's the same short-passing style through the middle that they've been playing all through the decades and that never got them anywhere.
But Spain was stubborn it seems. Instead of making their style more effective, they (almost) perfected it. And it took near perfection too to win thew WC with it. To achieve what Spain achieved with that playing style proves the enormous technical quality of that Spanish team.

But IMHO possession for the sake of it is farty, you need to make superiority count quickly and be unpredictable to be effective and deadly. The old Ajax school springs to mind or the Barcelona of the Laudrups, Stoichkovs and Romarios.
Therefore I don't think Spain style is here to last, it's too much hard work, it's very vulnerable to a more 'for-the-throat' style of play, teams will cop on - the Dutch nearly had it. I think you take just one or two names out of that Spanish team and they wouldn't have enough quality in the squad to keep it up.

As much as I do not particularly like this current team, it is foolish to say that their style is "farty" or "vulnerable". They are the World and European Champions for heavens sake! Even if they do not win a tournament in the next 10 years, those 2 trophies show that their style IS effective. Mentioning the old Ajax school brings to mind the Dutch teams of the 70s, they would have given their left legs to win one international trophy, never mind two.

If you add in Barcelona winning 2 Champions Leagues in the recent past, it is clear this team has a system that works. If Torres had been fit, Spain would have played as well as they did at Euro 2008. But that they could win the World Cup with him as either a passenger or sub means that taking one or two players out will not overly influence whether the Spanish win games. It is also foolish to say that if you take out their best players they will not be as good....that is the same for any team with any style of play in any generation. What other team would have Torres, Fabregas, Silva etc on the bench. And Marcos Senna sitting at home?

I have stated before that I do not overly like this bunch of players, but nobody can deny that they are the best in the world. Better that they won through passing the ball than the Dutch winning through brutality. European and World Champions, that single statement negates any criticism of their style of play.

Ush1

The difference I found from the 2008 Spain was Senna and the actual fatigue of the players.

They had more bite and zip in 08 like the Barca of that year and 09. The passing was that bit faster and incisive.

eZe^

Boskowski wrote: »

You can argue all you like about Torres and midfielders and whatnot but Spain played pretty-pretty short passing stuff through the middle as long as I can remember. And they haven't changed or are going to, they just have gotten better at it.

Well, your argument is that the short passing moves don't produce enough goals. That's not correct at all, it's just that Spain were unfortunately quite toothless in this tournament. Over the past 4 years they have played some of the most attractive goal scoring football around imo.

parker kent

eZe^ wrote: »

I actually disagree, I don't think Torres is necessarily the key difference at all (he's one of them). It's still the fact that two sitting midfielders are played. Torres scored maybe 6ish goals since the EC final (and 3 of those were in one game against South Africa). Silva not being played regularly is what has baffled me, he adds something different to the midfield midgets. A front 3 of Silva----Villa----Navas would be deadly imo.

Still though, 16 wins, 1 loss, 36 goals scored and 7 conceded in this WC campaign. And some people have the gall to compare them to Greece in '04. Let's see if this team can push on and really make the history books.

I agree most of what you say, but I would move Villa to the left if they are playing a front 3. Llorente would have improved the system and obviously Torres when fit is the best option. They lacked balance and when Villa is up front on his own, he tends to wander away from the penalty area. Playing him wide does not seem to decrease his goal tally, so there is no issue with that either.

So Villa-Torres-Pedro would get my vote or else move Villa wide right and play Silva on the left.

Warper

The major difference is teams know what to expect from Spain now. They always play the same way so opposing teams set out their team to stop Spain playing rather than actually going for it themselves. They cant really attack them as they would be killed so they go out to stifle Spain. It is to Spain's credit that they can overcome this. Maybe it ruins the spectacle a bit as their matches are all pretty familiar but that is down to the opposition refusing to play.

Dublin_Gunner

eZe^ wrote: »

Well, your argument is that the short passing moves don't produce enough goals. That's not correct at all, it's just that Spain were unfortunately quite toothless in this tournament. Over the past 4 years they have played some of the most attractive goal scoring football around imo.

Exactly. Just check my post above.

Qualifying: Played 10, won 10.
Scored 28, conceded 5.

That says quite a lot IMO and that was without Torres for a bit of it too.

Even when Torres doesn't score, the effect he has on opposition defenders can not be underestimated. Knowing you have to try and contain him has a lot of defences sh1tt1ng bricks, and invariably leaves more room for other players to get in around the box.

I would have liked to see Silva/Mata/Fabregas get more game time. They would have given a fair bit more bite to the Spanish attack.

Saying that, they still managed to win the tournament without scoring too many, shows the quality they have in midfield and defence IMO.

Puyol was a rock for Spain throughout the tournament, and I personally had him earmarked as a liability....

eZe^

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Exactly. Just check my post above.

Qualifying: Played 10, won 10.
Scored 28, conceded 5.

That says quite a lot IMO and that was without Torres for a bit of it too.

Even when Torres doesn't score, the effect he has on opposition defenders can not be underestimated. Knowing you have to try and contain him has a lot of defences sh1tt1ng bricks, and invariably leaves more room for other players to get in around the box.

I would have liked to see Silva/Mata/Fabregas get more game time. They would have given a fair bit more bite to the Spanish attack.

Saying that, they still managed to win the tournament without scoring too many, shows the quality they have in midfield and defence IMO.

Puyol was a rock for Spain throughout the tournament, and I personally had him earmarked as a liability....

All fair points. I'm glad Ramos is proving his doubters wrong too, he's always a beast when he plays for Spain.

pickarooney

Does anyone have the lineup from the friendly against Poland just before the WC where they scored almost as many as in the tournament itself?

I presume Poland didn't give a toss about the game but that was a recent example of pretty and effective football.

Dublin_Gunner

eZe^ wrote: »

All fair points. I'm glad Ramos is proving his doubters wrong too, he's always a beast when he plays for Spain.

Had a cracking tournament as well in fairness, maybe not so much in the final and semi (only because he didn't seem to get forward as much), but all in all he can be very proud of the way he played.

Dublin_Gunner

pickarooney wrote: »

Does anyone have the lineup from the friendly against Poland just before the WC where they scored almost as many as in the tournament itself?

I presume Poland didn't give a toss about the game but that was a recent example of pretty and effective football.

1 Iker Casillas
5 Carles Puyol
3 Gerard Piqué
11 Joan Capdevila
17 Álvaro Arbeloa
16 Sergio Busquets
14 Xabi Alonso
8 Xavi
6 Andrés Iniesta
7 David Villa
21 David Silva

Subs:
Pedro for Andrés Iniesta (39)

Sergio Ramos for Álvaro Arbeloa (55)

Jesús Navas for David Silva (55)

Cesc Fábregas for Xavi (56)

Fernando Torres for David Villa (66)

Carlos Marchena for Carles Puyol (72)

eZe^

pickarooney wrote: »

Does anyone have the lineup from the friendly against Poland just before the WC where they scored almost as many as in the tournament itself?

I presume Poland didn't give a toss about the game but that was a recent example of pretty and effective football.

---

San Iker

---

-Arbeloa---Pique----Puyol----Capdevila

---

Busquets

---

Alonso

---

---

Xavi

---

---Silva

---

Villa

---

Iniesta--



Pedro came on for Iniesta, Ramos for Arbeloa, Navas for Silva, Cesc for Xavi, Torres for Villa, and Marchena for Puyol. 6-0 final score.


Edit : Damn you Dublin Gunner.