Why oh why..the angelus?

Zombrex

lmaopml wrote: »

Wichnight, whether it's on TV or no, believe it or not, people will still stop at those times..We're a guiltless part of this society...

..Does it mean that much that it is broadcast...? No, suprisingly it doesn't..

For the vast majority it doesn't matter that much, whether there are dongs..

Take the 'dongs' for the minute it takes before the news.....feel free...

That is my point. It doesn't mean anything to anyone except a vocal minority.

So why bother with it any more. Scrap it, like TV broadcaster do all the time, bring RTE up to current guidelines (their own guidelines) and don't look back. We live in a modern, secular world where other religions and faiths in Ireland exist along with the Catholics. There is no reason to not move towards this, or at least there is no reason that isn't wrapped in a cloak of anti-multiculturalism.

As it stands the angelus is blocking RTE's moves to produce a more modern less backwards public broadcaster. Catering for all religions and faiths in a secular society does not mean tweaking the current Catholic programming to be slightly more multicultural. RTE has modern religious broadcasting guidelines but the angelus is the elephant in the corner. While RTE is shackled with the angelus and 1950s thinking it is being held in the past.

Of course that is exactly what some people seem to want.

Plowman

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Zombrex

Plowman wrote: »

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You can't seriously think that the culture of the Angelus still exists in modern Ireland?

I think ignoring the reality of modern Ireland, or wishing to, suggests your own motivations here more than mine.

Plowman wrote: »

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I'm not quite sure how you can support that, half the countries Catholics don't go to mass regularly let alone practice the angelus. That is before you get to the issue of how many of them actually think the state broadcaster should be devoting special place to a particular religious practice.

But even if it was it is ignoring RTE's own religious broadcasting guidelines to disperse religious broadcasting among the different religious groups in Ireland. That in itself seems a perfectly good reason to drop it. I would imagine that far more Catholics are interested in that than keeping the Angelus.

Plowman wrote: »

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Because that is just a fudge on the part of RTE. It is still the Angelus, they are just trying to shove the square peg of multiculturalism through the round hole of a Roman Catholic tradition.

By scrapping the Angelus RTE would then be able to focus on actually bringing representative religious broadcasting to the non-Catholic religions in Ireland, which is their current religious broadcasting guideline.

That in itself would seem a pretty good reason to scrap it. And at the moment no one seems to be coming up with any reason not to.

Plowman wrote: »

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I'm not labeling Catholics as a vocal minority. I would imagine that the vast majority of Catholics in Ireland don't give a hoot about RTE broadcasting the Angelus.

I'm labeling a specific sub-set of Catholics who like to make a big fuss about stuff like this as the vocal minority.

Fanny Cradock

Wicknight wrote: »

That is my point. It doesn't mean anything to anyone except a vocal minority.

You have made this assertion multiple times before. Can you give a figure as to what percentage this minority would be?

Turtwig

Turn the Angelus into brief a Songs of Prayer esque show and it's got my vote. Right now I'll just vote with my remote to change the channel. In my view, I'd take the Angelus anyday over Reality TV, or sensational tv reporting.

dvpower

I wonder how RTE feel about it. I can't imagine that too many people switch over to RTE to listen to the Angelus, but I'd imagine that quite a number switch over to Sky News when it comes on (and don't switch back).

I wonder are RTE sacrificing numbers on the Six-One news to hold on to the Angelus.

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You have made this assertion multiple times before. Can you give a figure as to what percentage this minority would be?

Small I would say. The actual angelus is watched by less than 10% of the population (prox 320,000), so even if we figured that every single person who watches the angelus is actually watching it for the religious tradition rather than just waiting for the news, and would be very upset if it was removed, it is still a small figure.

But of course that most likely isn't the case. While it is difficult to tell why a person is watching the angelus the fact that it is stuck on before the main evening news cannot be overlooked when assessing viewing figures.

Also the question is how many care that it is removed? Some people care strongly obviously such as those posting here, but it is hard to see that as the majority of even the 10% figure, let alone the population as a whole.

Lu Tze

Speaking as an athiest, i have no real problem with this, as it is part of RTE's religious programming. If people feel there is need to get rid of it, then all religious programming should be gotten rid of as it is one and the same, RTE either should have a mandate for religious broadcasting or not, this debate shouldn't be about the angelous specifically.

Unlike the catholic upbringing i had, i don't force my belief (or lack there of) on anybody else, which is why i don't have an agenda for forcing religion off the airwaves Its not for me, it is easy to opt out and not watch/listen to it, but for those that it brings solace to etc. i don't see why they should be denied it. If catholicism was a minority religion, would we be so vehement at trying to get rid of the angelus?

As ireland becomes multicultural i expect to see a lot more programming/documentaries on other religions which are becoming more prominent. Do i object to this as i don't adhere to any of them? No, as these programs can be informative and interesting.

liamw

Lu Tze wrote: »

Unlike the catholic upbringing i had, i don't force my belief (or lack there of) on anybody else, which is why i don't have an agenda for forcing religion off the airwaves Its not for me, it is easy to opt out and not watch/listen to it, but for those that it brings solace to etc. i don't see why they should be denied it. If catholicism was a minority religion, would we be so vehement at trying to get rid of the angelus?

So you would have no problem then if we had a minute for every single religion (just so we leave nobody out)? Is it also as easy to 'opt-out' of where you can send your non-religious kid to a school when 90% are church owned? Yep you just sit back there while others fight for church-state seperation...

Lu Tze

Is it also as easy to 'opt-out' of where you can send your non-religious kid to a school when 90% are church owned?

I do have a problem with being forced to bring you kids up in an ethos that is not what you want, there should be a neutral option. In many places there are gael scoils and educate together schools, which is a step in the right direction. What that has to do with religious programming on RTE which is what i was addressing?

So you would have no problem then if we had a minute for every single religion (just so we leave nobody out)?

I was mainly speaking about religious programming in general, it should either be allowed or not, the angelus is just one of the programs. I gave my view that i find some of the programming interesting. The angelus has been broadcast since i was a child.

Do you want to get rid of all religious programming? These programs can be informative for those unsure of their faith, and may help them find their own way, do you wish to take that away? Or the older generation who may be unable to attend mass/service, will be denied the broadcast on a sunday morning?

equivariant

As an atheist I am not particularly enamoured of the angelus. However I don't think that we should get rid. Instead, we should follow the lead of religion when it comes to dealing with customs from a different tradition - co-opt them for one's own purpose. e.g. christianity turned pagan winter festivals into Christmas

If it wasn't for the perceived religious association, probably most people would applaud the national broadcaster for having a minute's reflection. So just ignore the religious aspect if it suits you.

Zombrex

Lu Tze wrote: »

Speaking as an athiest, i have no real problem with this, as it is part of RTE's religious programming. If people feel there is need to get rid of it, then all religious programming should be gotten rid of as it is one and the same, RTE either should have a mandate for religious broadcasting or not, this debate shouldn't be about the angelous specifically.

That is not really the case. At the moment the angelus has a privileged place in RTE religious broadcasting, which is actually going against the point of their current guidelines, which are supposed to be more multicultural and less focused on any particular religion.

The angelus should be scrapped and RTE should take a fresh look at religious programming that is more inclusive, rather than trying to massage the angelus into a multicultural event which it really isn't.

Fanny Cradock

Wicknight wrote: »

Small I would say. The actual angelus is watched by less than 10% of the population (prox 320,000), so even if we figured that every single person who watches the angelus is actually watching it for the religious tradition rather than just waiting for the news, and would be very upset if it was removed, it is still a small figure.

Do you have data to support that figure of 320,000? According to the most recent data from RTE, if we are to take your 320,000 viewers as accurate that would account for something like 20% of total viewers (15 years +) across both channels at that time rising to 60% for the news. That 10% you mention appears to be viewers across all channels, not just RTE. Of course, I'm comparing your currently unsupported figure of 320,000 to RTE's official data for viewers.

Wicknight wrote: »

Also the question is how many care that it is removed? Some people care strongly obviously such as those posting here, but it is hard to see that as the majority of even the 10% figure, let alone the population as a whole.

If they don't care that it is removed then presumably they don't care if it stays. Do you have figures for people who are on the opposite end of the scale and passionately oppose RTE showing the Angelus? If the Angelus was modified to be more inclusive experience for other religions - drop the name and include images of minarets and the Star of David etc - would you be happy with it being shown?

Lu Tze

Wicknight wrote: »

That is not really the case. At the moment the angelus has a privileged place in RTE religious broadcasting.

Its not really like it can be moved to a different time slot

Plowman

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Fanny Cradock

In fairness, six-one wouldn't, I imagine, include those watching the Angelus. It is a separate programme - hence the name the name which reflects the fact that it starts one minute after six.

branie

If the Angelus did come on and someone started to pray, would you switch over?

Fanny Cradock

Me? I might switch over. Not because I'm offended but because I can do my own praying. Still, given that the Angelus appears to be going the opposite way, I think it unlikely that they would decided to go back to showing overt religious practice within the minute.

liamw

Originally Posted by Lu Tze View Post
I do have a problem with being forced to bring you kids up in an ethos that is not what you want, there should be a neutral option. In many places there are gael scoils and educate together schools, which is a step in the right direction. What that has to do with religious programming on RTE which is what i was addressing?

When you said: 'i don't force my belief (or lack there of) on anybody else', it appeared that you were saying that the best thing to do is to take no action in these circumstances, which I strongly disagree with. Perhaps I ahve misinterpreted you.

I was mainly speaking about religious programming in general, it should either be allowed or not, the angelus is just one of the programs. I gave my view that i find some of the programming interesting. The angelus has been broadcast since i was a child.

Do you want to get rid of all religious programming? These programs can be informative for those unsure of their faith, and may help them find their own way, do you wish to take that away? Or the older generation who may be unable to attend mass/service, will be denied the broadcast on a sunday morning?

I don't want to get rid of all religious programming. If there is a mass on Sunday morning on RTE then I can skip over it. However, if I wish to watch the national state news, then I don't see why catholicism has to be pushed in there. The news is not a religious programme, and thus should have no religious context.

branie

I mean non-religious people

myhead

Its not really an erosion of values just a bloody minded tradition. The catholic church is just another branch of the invention of religion. The angelus is like a control mechanism thats used to subjecate the masses. But hey, the god squad will try to explain that away. Im not trying to be offensive to those with "Faith" they can keep their "Faith" just dont shove it down my throat.

Fanny Cradock

liamw wrote: »

However, if I wish to watch the national state news, then I don't see why catholicism has to be pushed in there. The news is not a religious programme, and thus should have no religious context.

But the Angelus and the six one news are tow separate programmes.

Fanny Cradock

myhead wrote: »

Its not really an erosion of values just a bloody minded tradition. The catholic church is just another branch of the invention of religion. The angelus is like a control mechanism thats used to subjecate the masses. But hey, the god squad will try to explain that away. Im not trying to be offensive to those with "Faith" they can keep their "Faith" just dont shove it down my throat.

Read the charter before you next decide to post.

liamw

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

But the Angelus and the six one news are tow separate programmes.

Perhaps you are technically correct, but a programme 60 seconds long that's just a series of bongs? I can't help but feel it is pushing an agenda towards catholicism in a country where TV license fees are compulsary (we could have advertisements there), and which is now very multidenominational. I guess this argument does come back to church-state seperation for me; it's also making me reconsider my position on catholic mass airing on sunday morning.

uvox

Don't knock it. It's RTE's best programme. Naturally, it's a repeat.

Angelus iPhone app anyone?

lmaopml

I just think it's really stupid and very obvious for anybody to argue over the minute it takes to broadcast the Angelus, and it's really very telling for those who believe it has no place, when there is obviously an audience... I know the angelus doesn't cross over as far as religious diversity is concerned, but really it seems it's worse critics are non religious people..

To be honest, I don't really mind whether someone decides to be non religious so long as they are given a choice and they really know the choice...and aren't driven by some kinda brainiacs who stroke their ego..

..the Angelus is just 'bongs' to some. I'm not too worried about it being broadcast, although I would defo admit I would be sad to see it driven off the air...Whatever! People choose freely, and I think that's important, I have no fear of people choosing freely to be what they want to be...each one is given their measure....

I really like freedom and human rights..love free choice and all that goes along with choosing wisely.. etc. so cool!

Zombrex

lmaopml wrote: »

I just think it's really stupid and very obvious for anybody to argue over the minute it takes to broadcast the Angelus

Would you include in that anyone who gets worked up about the idea of it being removed?

I was actually chatting to a guy who works in RTE about the Angelus yesterday. It seems from its inception the angelus was more political than religion. I didn't know this but when it was introduced back in the 1950 for some religious festival it was only supposed to stay on the air for a week or a month or something during that festival.

But being religious crazy 1950s Ireland it ended staying. And RTE have basically been trying to get rid of it since then. Not even churches do the angelus any more, but every time RTE try and do this the political hassle is too great. The angelus has (and apparently still is) a political pawn for religious conservatives who believe that technology such as TV erode.

It is a bizarre little hang over to a bye-gone time, there seems to be very little reason to keep it other than to keep certain quarters happy.

lmaopml

Wicknight wrote: »

It is a bizarre little hang over to a bye-gone time, there seems to be very little reason to keep it other than to keep certain quarters happy.

You see Wicknight, and with respect, I know you're atheist and don't particularly care for religious programs etc. but it's not really very nice to assign everybody to a 'bygone time', when we're right here posting on the internet..and we're not 'bygone'...! We're right here talking to you... Ta daaa...!:)

Your right, YES, it is to keep certain people, ( those quarters lol ) who are part of the same society as you, that want to watch reality tv or Eastenders, or Star Trek ( yeah, Star Trek!!) et al happy....We're emerging from a largely Catholic Island, but we will do it in our own time..don't be so hasty...Ireland is getting more diverse, and there is something lovely about that too....Believe it or not, I don't think most Catholics are opposed to this or to facing a future that is fairly inclusive, but it will find it's natural shape.....we're not all 'choir' members...

No big deal...

There doesn't seem to be the same deep feelings to take more of the mindless crap off the air waves? I think it's rather begrudging that the Angelus gets this kind of lashback from critics...

There are so many things to criticise out there..

Manach

lmaopml wrote: »

There are so many things to criticise out there..

The Cosmetic Surgery Show on TV3 for a start.

Whynop

There's plenty of secularist propaganda on the telly as it is. Is it too much for the Catholic taxpayers to get their 2 minutes of peace each day?