Incompetent Teachers

tc2010

gowayuwilya wrote: »

im a teacher myself,three yrs now n i have t agree wit comments about imcompetent teachers,wud agree with the licence format and possibly more inspections if dun correctly.no way shud any teacher ever b made "permanent" its a licence for some tho not all to do f%^k all. however there are a lot like myself mad t teach n delighted t do it but with ould farts taking up posts waiting on pension day what do ya do??didnt join any union n never wil coz they more often dan not they protect those that dont do they're job properly. If any teacher comes in does there best no principal r school wud want t c em go provided they're best is good enuf,if its not good enuf they shud get the road end off...n fyi i have some real world experience before i went teaching so i saw both sides.

Holy good ****e

baronflyguy

Read an interesting article this morning in the Irish Times claiming Primary teachers in Ireland among world's best paid!!!!!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0714/1224274659883.html

32k starting salary is excellent. I think Nurses are on the same.
When i started with my IT degree I was lucky to get 18k starting salary about 10 years ago.

leg

baronflyguy wrote: »

Read an interesting article this morning in the Irish Times claiming Primary teachers in Ireland among world's best paid!!!!!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0714/1224274659883.html

32k starting salary is excellent. I think Nurses are on the same.
When i started with my IT degree I was lucky to get 18k starting salary about 10 years ago.

In fairness its lower than secondary school teachers or gardai. As someone who hopes to a b.ed next year and looking for over 500 points I dont think its an all too ridiculous pay scale considering one can become a gaurd with lca or a secondary school teacher with an arts or basic business degree

deisemum

baronflyguy wrote: »

Read an interesting article this morning in the Irish Times claiming Primary teachers in Ireland among world's best paid!!!!!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0714/1224274659883.html

32k starting salary is excellent. I think Nurses are on the same.
When i started with my IT degree I was lucky to get 18k starting salary about 10 years ago.

Don't forget all the add ons that can bump that up closer to €40k starting off. I wouldn't have known about them only for family members who are teachers.

spurious

Let's deal in facts.

1. Have a look at the salary scale, no PE teacher, unless he/she is also Principal of the school is on 75k.
See: http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html#Common

2. Re incompetent teachers there are procedures AGREED WITH THE UNIONS regarding dismissal of teachers whose performance is unsatisfactory.
See: http://www.cpsma.ie/Circulars/Sept_09/0060_2009_teachers.pdf (.pdf file)

Regarding the other nonsense on this thread. I'm sorry someone didn't give you a gold star when you were ten. Get over it.

dayshah

baronflyguy wrote: »

Read an interesting article this morning in the Irish Times claiming Primary teachers in Ireland among world's best paid!!!!!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0714/1224274659883.html

32k starting salary is excellent. I think Nurses are on the same.
When i started with my IT degree I was lucky to get 18k starting salary about 10 years ago.

Come on now, you can hardly compare a starting salary from 10 years ago with today. What would someone starting out in IT get now?

If you pay peanuts you get monkeys. Some people seem to think we can attract better teachers by paying them less.

That research didn't take account of the pension levy. Also teachers in most countries finish at lunch-time, but here they work in the afternoon. After pension levy it hovers around €30k, which I think is a bit on the low side.

baronflyguy

dayshah wrote: »

Come on now, you can hardly compare a starting salary from 10 years ago with today. What would someone starting out in IT get now?

Sorry yes you are right, my apologies, I was in a rush. I was meant to add, does anyone know current IT graduate salary out of curiosity.

dayshah wrote: »

If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

hmmm, personally that saying doesn't really sit well with me. I know loads who do voluntary/community work in their spare time and in between jobs (after been made redundant) and few people on low scale salaries and they work really hard, long hours and efficiently regardless of profession compared to people doing similar work and getting paid for it.

dayshah wrote: »

Some people seem to think we can attract better teachers by paying them less.

haven't heard that comment myself.

baronflyguy

@Mods - sorry my posting about salaries is a bit of topic and has veered the thread off topic. I suppose the thought that came to my mind was that the incompetent teacher/lecturer that exists out there get well paid for been incompetent. The teacher/lecturer salaries are quite good if not the best in the world in some cases.

Yes Boss

spurious wrote: »

Let's deal in facts.

1. Have a look at the salary scale, no PE teacher, unless he/she is also Principal of the school is on 75k.
See: http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html#Common

2. Re incompetent teachers there are procedures AGREED WITH THE UNIONS regarding dismissal of teachers whose performance is unsatisfactory.
See: http://www.cpsma.ie/Circulars/Sept_09/0060_2009_teachers.pdf (.pdf file)

Regarding the other nonsense on this thread. I'm sorry someone didn't give you a gold star when you were ten. Get over it.

How many incompetent teachers have lost their job in the last 10 years?

deisemum

Yes Boss wrote: »

How many incompetent teachers have lost their job in the last 10 years?

The DES haven't provided this info when the media request it but confirmed it was negligible.

leg

I went to the biggest boys secondary school in Waterford( i wont name) for every 3 or 4 good teachers theres one bad one and i think thats standard practice in pretty much every school in waterford. At the end of the day these teachers cannot be removed its next to impossible no matter how many complaints are made principals and unions will not have a collegaue fired.

Instead these incompotent teachers end up teaching junior cert classes where not so much fuss is made. From my experience the bad teachers end up teaching all j.c with my most of their timetables made up of religion sphe and cspe even though they are not qualified to teach it.

Most of the incompotent teachers i have met either have next to little knowledge of the subject matter but the students love them for the "craic" or the teachers are actually quite talented but have no crowd control and the classroom becomes a riot.

Moral of the story is it is next to impossible to remove incomptoent teachers but the great teachers of which there is many get very little praise which they deserve

deisemum

leg wrote: »

I went to the biggest boys secondary school in Waterford( i wont name) for every 3 or 4 good teachers theres one bad one and i think thats standard practice in pretty much every school in waterford. At the end of the day these teachers cannot be removed its next to impossible no matter how many complaints are made principals and unions will not have a collegaue fired.

Instead these incompotent teachers end up teaching junior cert classes where not so much fuss is made. From my experience the bad teachers end up teaching all j.c with my most of their timetables made up of religion sphe and cspe even though they are not qualified to teach it.

Most of the incompotent teachers i have met either have next to little knowledge of the subject matter but the students love them for the "craic" or the teachers are actually quite talented but have no crowd control and the classroom becomes a riot.

Moral of the story is it is next to impossible to remove incomptoent teachers but the great teachers of which there is many get very little praise which they deserve

I agree with this but some of the incompotent ones aren't even allowed teach up to JC, they're stuck with first years.

Even if a principal had ground to remore a teacher it's extremely difficult to do so because the union will fight tooth and nail for the teacher it represents.

leg

deisemum wrote: »

I agree with this but some of the incompotent ones aren't even allowed teach up to JC, they're stuck with first years

That is true but for most sublects anyway the teacher you get in first year you have for the 3 from my experience obviously

deisemum wrote: »

Even if a principal had ground to remore a teacher it's extremely difficult to do so because the union will fight tooth and nail for the teacher it represents.

Thats exactly the problem you simply cannot remove a teacher for being incompotent unless the abuse/strike a child their job is safe. Its similar to it being next to impossible to expel a pupil

deisemum

leg wrote: »

That is true but for most sublects anyway the teacher you get in first year you have for the 3 from my experience obviously



Thats exactly the problem you simply cannot remove a teacher for being incompotent unless the abuse/strike a child their job is safe. Its similar to it being next to impossible to expel a pupil

Even if they abuse/strike your child as well as other pupils they generally still manage to keep their jobs and it's really sickening to see the union protect them knowing they've broken the law and abused your child.

leg

I dunno about that one teacher called a child fat and was quickly suspended thats the only time i've experienced such a case

dayshah

baronflyguy wrote: »

hmmm, personally that saying doesn't really sit well with me. I know loads who do voluntary/community work in their spare time and in between jobs (after been made redundant) and few people on low scale salaries and they work really hard, long hours and efficiently regardless of profession compared to people doing similar work and getting paid for it.

OK, for example hurlers are paid nothing but still very good.

But for someones main job they need a decent wage. This is one reason why so few men will now do primary teaching. The holidays and hours are particularly suited for a woman with children, because more than likely she is the one who is looking after the children at home. But how many men with over 500 points will work for €30,000 a year when there are other options. If the pay isn't right then people with a good aptitude for dealing with children will do higher paid jobs during the day, and maybe help with a junior GAA team or scouts in their free time. But children are with their teachers for about 30 hours a week.

The idea about paying them less and hiring better teachers is basically what the likes of that ex-president of UL is suggesting (though he doesn't phrase it that way).

leg

dayshah wrote: »

But how many men with over 500 points will work for €30,000 a year when there are other options.

15 in my year applied for primary school teaching and I can safely say over half of them will get over 500 points

dayshah

leg wrote: »

15 in my year applied for primary school teaching and I can safely say over half of them will get over 500 points

I assume you are in a male school. How many in your year? If they reduced it to say €25,000 it would probably be less applying.

Times are bad now, so more people will go for teaching, but I consider it a major problem that there are not more male teachers. About half my primary teachers were men, but they have all retired now.

leg

dayshah wrote: »

I assume you are in a male school. How many in your year? If they reduced it to say €25,000 it would probably be less applying.

Times are bad now, so more people will go for teaching, but I consider it a major problem that there are not more male teachers. About half my primary teachers were men, but they have all retired now.

Im in De La Salle so there would be alot more students then your average school. Male teachers are in high demand and the likely hood of quickly moving up the ranks is alot higher for males to hence the rise. Last year only 2 from the school applied and the year before none so there has been a large increase in male applicants if my school is anything to go by

Odats

Male teachers in primary schools are a rare breed at this stage when I was in DCU only about 4 years ago St Pats down the road the ratio was nearly 1 to 10 ratio male to female. However, if a lad does go for a job as a teacher in an all boys school he's more than likely to get the job over a female ( male role model figure kinda thing).
Regarding teachers pay I just qualified as a chartered accountant last week which for consideration takes 3/4 years undergraduate followed by 3.5 years training and exams with 4 exams each summer going to college part time at weekends at one stage I didn't have a weekend off in 7/8 weeks while doing 40hr working week sometimes OT when in busy season. Out of college was on under 14K and qualified now you'd be lucky to get what the teachers are starting off at and I mean lucky due to the recession. I'm fortunate I'm going abroad to do abit of charity work (young and want to see the world and experience new cultures) after that possibly emigration for the foreseeable future. So they should count themselves lucky jobs for life not in the real world.

sillysocks

deisemum wrote: »

Even if they abuse/strike your child as well as other pupils they generally still manage to keep their jobs and it's really sickening to see the union protect them knowing they've broken the law and abused your child.

Have you got any evidence of this?

I'm not a teacher for starters but If you were thinking of applying to be a teacher and you read this thread, you mightn't bother. The amount of things that are written this thread that are untrue is unreal. The stuff written all through this thread must be so demoralising for teachers who try their best. We've all had good teachers and bad teachers, but the hatred towards all teachers here is unreal. You'd swear people want the teachers paid buttons and still put up with angelic little Johnnies who know they can go home and expect full support from his/her parents no matter what happens in school.

Someone has to teach our kids. I'd like a well paid, well motivated person to do it. A lot of whats written in this thread comes from people who clearly dislike teachers and the teaching profession in general.

Trotter

Tellin ya somethin lads n ladies.. Im a male teacher and this thread has turned my stomach. The generalisations, the dislike of all teachers by many, the assumptions, the mistruths.. Its hard to take. Im just trying to do my best and earn a living, and the teachers I know are doing the same.

ziedth

I can see how you might take it to heart trotter, but I have had a number of teachers who basically had no right to be.

Anyone who knows me will know I'm a placid enough fella I wasn't any different in my teens and one teache I mean HATED me, she took every oppurtunity to make some smartass remark when she could and went out of her way to ask me nightmare questions so I can see why some people have a problem.

Fact is every profession has these kind of people Guards, Managers, Waiters anyone can be crap at their job or be unsuited however the difference is we all deal with teachers for a significant part of our lives.

I don't envy teachers, as a matter of fact I respect them because I see the kids are getting more cheeky and you can't just clip them around the ear anymore (both a good and a bad thing). I think everyone should try not to paint them all with the same brush I have had some very good caring teachers, some **** and some dumbasses. But all in all I got a decent enough education because. Worked at it!

deisemum

sillysocks wrote: »

Have you got any evidence of this?

I'm not a teacher for starters but If you were thinking of applying to be a teacher and you read this thread, you mightn't bother. The amount of things that are written this thread that are untrue is unreal. The stuff written all through this thread must be so demoralising for teachers who try their best. We've all had good teachers and bad teachers, but the hatred towards all teachers here is unreal. You'd swear people want the teachers paid buttons and still put up with angelic little Johnnies who know they can go home and expect full support from his/her parents no matter what happens in school.

Someone has to teach our kids. I'd like a well paid, well motivated person to do it. A lot of whats written in this thread comes from people who clearly dislike teachers and the teaching profession in general.

Yes I have evidence of this as my child was abused by a teacher. This can be confirmed by the Gardai in Ballybricken as well as the DPP. I've posted about this in the past and other regular posters on here pm'd me who also had the same teacher and witnessed him physically abusing pupils when they were at school.

I've got family on both sides who are teachers so I've also been told things about what's happened in their schools and how they are "strongly advised" to put it extremely mildly by their union and principals to keep quiet about what they witness or hear. I also know of teachers who are absolutely sickened and disgusted by the actions or inactions of some of their colleagues and how they hate being tarred with the same brush. There is very much a culture of close ranks.

I don't hate teachers, I respect most of them and most of the teachers my children have had have been great and a few I couldn't praise enough for their dedication and going the extra mile so to speak but just because I respect most of them doesn't mean I dislike all of them. Pick any profession and you'll find good and bad.

This thread is about incompetent teachers not all teachers and any parent that I personally know respect most teachers. No doubt there are some that dislike most or all teachers but I haven't come across them yet.

Yes Boss

Trotter wrote: »

Tellin ya somethin lads n ladies.. Im a male teacher and this thread has turned my stomach. The generalisations, the dislike of all teachers by many, the assumptions, the mistruths.. Its hard to take. Im just trying to do my best and earn a living, and the teachers I know are doing the same.

Trotter, the thing is, if incompetent teachers were exposed for what they are by their own profession, you would not see a thread like this. In fact, it must be demoralising for hard working teachers to look across the staff room at John or Mary whom everyone knows should not be teaching children and have nothing done about it. However, it is quite peculiar that the teaching profession seems to protect these people and use the same defense - your putting all teachers down! Sometimes it sounds like the Bishop who suggests that he could not do anything about the dysfunctional priest, like the TD that won't criticize his party etc. Maybe it is a cultural thing in Ireland (secrecy)!

If the teaching profession regulated itself adequately, it would not require regulating from outside the profession. I believe they are not capable of this. Therefore, how incompetent teachers are disciplined/fired requires closer inspection!

deise blue

deisemum wrote: »

Yes I have evidence of this as my child was abused by a teacher. This can be confirmed by the Gardai in Ballybricken as well as the DPP. I've posted about this in the past and other regular posters on here pm'd me who also had the same teacher and witnessed him physically abusing pupils when they were at school.

I've got family on both sides who are teachers so I've also been told things about what's happened in their schools and how they are "strongly advised" to put it extremely mildly by their union and principals to keep quiet about what they witness or hear. I also know of teachers who are absolutely sickened and disgusted by the actions or inactions of some of their colleagues and how they hate being tarred with the same brush. There is very much a culture of close ranks.

I don't hate teachers, I respect most of them and most of the teachers my children have had have been great and a few I couldn't praise enough for their dedication and going the extra mile so to speak but just because I respect most of them doesn't mean I dislike all of them. Pick any profession and you'll find good and bad.

This thread is about incompetent teachers not all teachers and any parent that I personally know respect most teachers. No doubt there are some that dislike most or all teachers but I haven't come across them yet.

What you have'nt made clear is whether or not the DPP concluded that the teacher you refer to had a case to answer .

Was the teacher taken to court ?

dayshah

Odats wrote: »

Regarding teachers pay I just qualified as a chartered accountant last week which for consideration takes 3/4 years undergraduate followed by 3.5 years training and exams with 4 exams each summer going to college part time at weekends at one stage I didn't have a weekend off in 7/8 weeks while doing 40hr working week sometimes OT when in busy season. Out of college was on under 14K and qualified now you'd be lucky to get what the teachers are starting off at and I mean lucky due to the recession. I'm fortunate I'm going abroad to do abit of charity work (young and want to see the world and experience new cultures) after that possibly emigration for the foreseeable future. So they should count themselves lucky jobs for life not in the real world.

I don't think its fair to pick out what teachers start at. An accountant can make over €100k after a few years, but teachers can't. When the economy picks up accountants will get pay rises faster than teachers.

Also, as with other jobs, when starting off teachers don't have much in the way off job security. Very very few start off in permanent job.

Just wondering, would you ever consider teaching accountancy in a secondary school, and how much would they have to offer for you to do it as a career?

lily09

Ok i had a whole reply wrote here and the whole thing just dissappeared.:mad:
Anyway Im a primary school teacher and have found it very hard reading over the past few pages. I actually wont try and justify my job and salary.
If I tell you that I spent the first week of my holidays in my classroom tidying for next year, you will say arent you lucky to have the summer off (which I am). If i explain that I never leave school till after half four because I am working for the following day, or i bring home copies that i spend the evening in front of you will say that isnt it great we finish so early.
I could say that I bring home 610 euro per week after 10 years teaching and a masters and you will say that its more than those on the dole and yes that does include my pension.
I could say I have been verbally abused by parents this year who think that their child would never do whatever I have the audacity to accuse them of now.
Basically teachers can do nothing right on these threads.
I adore my job and wont say Im not lucky to have it.Yes its a very good salary and conditions, but the bitterness I have read is unbelievable.Yes everyone has had a negative experience with a teacher, so is the nature of having a position of authority over a child growing up and testing the water. Believe me I had my fair share of run ins.

ps by the way if you complain a teacher they are suspended pending a HSE investigation(and we know how long that will take)The union fully support this. Grounds for complaint include sarcasm and belittling. So if you feel there is a genuine complaint do this.

Yes Boss

lily09 wrote: »

Ok i had a whole reply wrote here and the whole thing just dissappeared.:mad:
Anyway Im a primary school teacher and have found it very hard reading over the past few pages. I actually wont try and justify my job and salary.
If I tell you that I spent the first week of my holidays in my classroom tidying for next year, you will say arent you lucky to have the summer off (which I am). If i explain that I never leave school till after half four because I am working for the following day, or i bring home copies that i spend the evening in front of you will say that isnt it great we finish so early.
I could say that I bring home 610 euro per week after 10 years teaching and a masters and you will say that its more than those on the dole and yes that does include my pension.
I could say I have been verbally abused by parents this year who think that their child would never do whatever I have the audacity to accuse them of now.
Basically teachers can do nothing right on these threads.
I adore my job and wont say Im not lucky to have it.Yes its a very good salary and conditions, but the bitterness I have read is unbelievable.Yes everyone has had a negative experience with a teacher, so is the nature of having a position of authority over a child growing up and testing the water. Believe me I had my fair share of run ins.

ps by the way if you complain a teacher they are suspended pending a HSE investigation(and we know how long that will take)The union fully support this. Grounds for complaint include sarcasm and belittling. So if you feel there is a genuine complaint do this.

Again, you have come back with the text book response. But the original question related to incompetent teachers and why they are not disciplined and/or fired! I would suggest that this is one of the causes of the animosity on this thread.

Can you answer why incompetent teachers are condoned by their peers?
Maybe then the public will in a position to support the entire profession. As, long as teaches, principles and the unions protect the incompetent, the profession cannot defend its position!

deise blue

May I say lily09 that I think the vast majority of teachers do a great job , I have two friends in the City who teach and I am constantly impressed by their dedication and attention to detail.

They also do a huge amount of fundraising and extra curricular activities for the school.

Sure terms and conditions are good but really that's a reasonable expectation for any demanding job that requires qualifications.

Unfortunately the question of incompetency is a factor in all occupations and is difficult if not impossible to resolve , perhaps re-training is the way to go ?