Incompetent Teachers

rayc

Yes Boss wrote: »

Again, you have come back with the text book response. But the original question related to incompetent teachers and why they are not disciplined and/or fired! I would suggest that this is one of the causes of the animosity on this thread.

Can you answer why incompetent teachers are condoned by their peers?
Maybe then the public will in a position to support the entire profession. As, long as teaches, principles and the unions protect the incompetent, the profession cannot defend its position!

Just started reading this thread today, so I don't have a specific view on this. However as a general response to the last post, surely no matter what the profession, you as a worker encounter incompetent people? Do you run straight to your boss and say 'Hey this guy is thick, sack him will you!'. I'd guess probably not. Most people would probably just let it go and focus on doing their own job. I think this is a wider observation on human nature really, rather than a specific profession.

leg

Nobody is making sweeping generalisations on this thread I think evryone knows that the vast majority of teachers are great at their job and hardworking... but this thread is about incompotent teachers so taking offence to what is said here is pointless because its more than likely not aimed at you.

Yes Boss

rayc wrote: »

Just started reading this thread today, so I don't have a specific view on this. However as a general response to the last post, surely no matter what the profession, you as a worker encounter incompetent people? Do you run straight to your boss and say 'Hey this guy is thick, sack him will you!'. I'd guess probably not. Most people would probably just let it go and focus on doing their own job. I think this is a wider observation on human nature really, rather than a specific profession.

You are correct, but the difficulty is that if someone pointed out incompetent persons in your profession would you jump up and defend them at all costs? Would you expect your union to protect someone whom is incompetent and should not be in the job?

The difficulty is an incompetent teacher can do a lot of damage to the development of children!

lily09

Ok very sorry for my textbook answer.
I think teachers that in anyway bully or belitle students deserve to be fired immediatly.It is an abuse of power, bullying those weaker and younger. That is why I explained about the HSE suspensions. You can do something about it.
On the note of incompetent teachers I have a couple of points to make.
A large problem with teaching is the fact that you are pretty much left to your own devices to get on with things, of course this is one of the best if you work hard as you are your own master. However it leads to many people with low levels of self discipline really swinging the lead. For the record this is so infuriating to other teachers, who are trying to get 2 years in one done the following year.Its where to go is the problem. As a previous poster stated we are still employees under a boss. Yes we can complain to the principal after that it is in their hands and you have to work with people who you have "ratted out"
That being said and I know some will pick me up on the previous point, I think its a disgrace. A system of checks and balances can be put in place so it never gets this far. In the past term there were a number of inspectors paying surprise visits to schools and looking for notes and through copybooks, questioning students etc. This would be a better use of inspectors than the organised Whole School Evaluation where 4(i think) months notice is given.
Also I feel it is unfair to completly blame the INTO and trust me it is very unusual for me to stick up for them. I know of one case in a school (i wont mention any names as any teachers would recognise it) where there was disgraceful management and many incompetent teachers. The Dept came in and did an inspection and said everything was fine. As a teacher it can be very hard to break your back in a system like this.
OK am slightly rambling now but I just have one final point to make and that is the parents and students perception of incompetency. I have had a parent give out to me because I use so little textbooks and last years teacher did loads. That was because the previous year the teacher just spent the time filling in workbooks where I find it more beneficial to the children to source work that is appropriate to their level.
In my opinion no teacher should come into a school permanent , perhaps 3 years temporary and then periodic reviews.There should be a system of checks and proper ongoing inspections and a proper and fair complaints system
Phew, thanks for reading my opinion.

leg

lily09 wrote: »

but I just have one final point to make and that is the parents and students perception of incompetency. I have had a parent give out to me because I use so little textbooks and last years teacher did loads. That was because the previous year the teacher just spent the time filling in workbooks where I find it more beneficial to the children to source work that is appropriate to their level.

Dont mean to pick any one point because you raise alot of valid points but I dont think this is the kinda of incompetency anyone here is talking about. Im probably the only current student posting in this thread but when i speak of incompetence in secondary schools mostly I mean no crown control, no disciplin and no real teaching. In primary school I had no real experience of bad teachers (small country school) and any problems where solved quickly by parents and teachers because eveyone knew everyone.

lily09

leg wrote: »

Dont mean to pick any one point because you raise alot of valid points but I dont think this is the kinda of incompetency anyone here is talking about. Im probably the only current student posting in this thread but when i speak of incompetence in secondary schools mostly I mean no crown control, no disciplin and no real teaching. In primary school I had no real experience of bad teachers (small country school) and any problems where solved quickly by parents and teachers because eveyone knew everyone.

no problem i suppose it does seem a little weak it was just something that happened to me recently and I thought it illustrated some of my point.
I totally get your point as a secondary school student. I went to a large girls secondary school in the city and I really didnt have any problem with the vast majority of the teachers.However I do agree that some cant (dont want to) control pupils. And teachers that I know did not read or correct work. The only advice I can give you is complain or more importantly get your parents to complain.Go to the principal about any teacher you have a major problem with, with documented evidence.Unfortunatly the major problem and with this I agree with other posters that the older teachers are more untouchable. This is the system that needs to change. Its your future, stand up for it. Our class solved a little problem with an Irish teacher this way.

leg

To tell the truth I never bothered complaining for two reasons 1) nothing will happen people say complain but at the end of the day all staff are friends and basically and nothing will happen about it and 2) whats the point in getting stressed over it? I had one bad teacher and instead I just thought myself not really much else that i could do.

I generally had great teachers and for 7 out of my 8 leaving cert subjects I can safely say I had some of the best teachers in the country( I did change classes without telling anyone to get the best teachers but that besides the point)

rayc

Yes Boss wrote: »

You are correct, but the difficulty is that if someone pointed out incompetent persons in your profession would you jump up and defend them at all costs? Would you expect your union to protect someone whom is incompetent and should not be in the job?

The difficulty is an incompetent teacher can do a lot of damage to the development of children!

No of course not, but I don't think anyone here has really done this here have they? Most people have just defended themselves and their profession from the sweeping generalisations that have been suggested. Really the larger problem here is to do with the unions and accountability in the public sector, not the 'good' individual teachers. I stand to be corrected but I don't think any of the posts here have "jump(ed) up and defend them (incompetent teachers) at all costs", just defended themselves and their profession.

lily09

leg
I totally understand and therein lies the problem. But trust me not all staff are friends, we would love you to complain about other staff members as its easier than us doing it. (I know its such an awful attitude).
Its an awful situation to be in and one that could be much improved, I believe though the onus is on the department of ed as as you say (and im probably contradicting myself here from above) many principals have cosy relationships with certain teachers, they are completly entitled to do so but it doesnt foster a professional environment.

Odats

dayshah wrote: »

I don't think its fair to pick out what teachers start at. An accountant can make over €100k after a few years, but teachers can't. When the economy picks up accountants will get pay rises faster than teachers.

Also, as with other jobs, when starting off teachers don't have much in the way off job security. Very very few start off in permanent job.

Just wondering, would you ever consider teaching accountancy in a secondary school, and how much would they have to offer for you to do it as a career?

€100k after a few years you're having a laugh talking 10+ years PQE for that depending on the role. That's a common misconception that accountants make loads of money they don't. Regarding job security yes for 3.5 years during your training contract yes on cat money but has to be done providing you pass your exams or your out the door so effectively 1 year each time. Then most contracts aren't permanent after you qualify 2 years max if your lucky on relatively low wages 25-35K. The days of coming out qualified expecting to earn 50k are long gone.
I would consider teaching in secondary school.
Just the argument that the other person made about staying back until 4.30pm doing stuff after class has finished and bringing work home to correct yes I appreciate the argument but in the private sector my friend if a job needs to be done it means it needs to be done and would you come in and do a 12 hour shift (no O/T time in lieu if lucky/unpaid that's how we role) on a Saturday & Sunday after working a 40 hr week to meet a client deadline. I think not.
Rant over Back on topic I think incompetent teachers should be assessed each year and have to do so many hours CPD and class assessments. In my line of work we have to do so many hours a year and practice reviews are carried so if we don't meet the requirements we lose our qualification and have to reapply.

deise blue

I worked in the financial sector where all overtime had to be recorded and paid for.

It is ethically wrong that any employer should expect employees to work overtime without pay , it may very well be a fact of life for some , a situation exacerbated by the recessionary times but that does not make it right.

Odats

deise blue wrote: »

I worked in the financial sector where all overtime had to be recorded and paid for.

It is ethically wrong that any employer should expect employees to work overtime without pay , it may very well be a fact of life for some , a situation exacerbated by the recessionary times but that does not make it right.

I agree with you that's just the way it is at the moment. Just reading the comment moaning about bringing home work to correct and staying back until 4.30pm grinds my gears.

lily09

odats
Did you read my posts at all or did you just pick out the one negative thing.
I was saying that I do these things and I actually wasnt moaning. That is my job I accept that and do these things.If you cared to read my whole post I was saying that there is no point in putting up these arguments as there is a comeback to everyone.
I am very sorry I "grind your gears", however the fact is you have to work unpaid overtime which you are moaning about, I do too.
every job has stresses and you are comparing apples and oranges comparing teachers and accountants, the thread was about incompetent teachers, something I feel I addressed.
You may have to come in on a Saturday to finish work for a client, I had to put on a Summer play with 32 Senior Infants.Thats life.

looksee

This thread is very like the many threads talking about public service. And like those threads it is just the same points over and over.

Teachers are lazy, incompetent, over paid, get too much holiday, don't appreciate their permanent, pensionable jobs that they cannot be sacked from and so on and on. That's the mantra that is continually being chanted.

There have been some good points made, the main one being that the above description applies to a minority of teachers. Also that bad teachers should be removed - I have no problem with that, but it is not the responsibility of ordinary teachers to remove a colleague, any more than in any other job.

If there were some proper structure for parents to report serious problems, that would be a help, but it is down to the Department of Education to implement a policy. Instead of making generalised complaints about teachers, why not tackle the people who can actually do something about it.