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Clay Shooting Ireland for those outside the ICPSA ***READ MOD WARNING IN POST 30***
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I know what you mean bunny, you just want to shoot classic rifle without all the bull**** of the VCRAIbunny shooter wrote: »Organisations, NGB's etc :rolleyes: maybe these lads just want to have a few shots at a few clays without all the bull****e
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Do tell. What organisations have you been a member of that aren't democratic?bunny shooter wrote: »Exactly The VCRAI is a very democratic organisation where all the participants have an input and feedback is welcomed, unlike some organisations 
I know you are a member of the NTSA and have the right to attend the AGM and vote, all very democratic like :P0 -
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Well for the record your input would be welcomed as is everyones. Attendance at the AGM isn't compulsory but would be appreciated.bunny shooter wrote: »I'm in enough hot water without turning on the tap again
:D
Only a newbie (full individual member) in NTSA
so can't comment yet
TBH from now on I'm staying out of the organisation and politics of all organisations I'm in0 -
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there the cause of the "BULL" bunny
JW I know what your saying and I understand and it pisses me off also but there are always two sides to every story.
Recently in South Tipp there was a similar fiasco within the NARGC which you may have heard of. Most lads in the two game clubs I'm in and that I shoot with, myself included, at this stage just want to do our bit of shooting and leave the politics and ****e out of it
I agree that splits and such are not good for our sport BUT unfortunately it is evident in *some of* the shooting organisations except the VCRAI :P (nudge, nudge RRPC), which hopefully will last.0 -
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Huh? What? I was asleep there for a while until you nudged me awakebunny shooter wrote: »JW I know what your saying and I understand and it pisses me off also.
Recently in South Tipp there was a similar fiasco within the NARGC which you may have heard of. Most lads in the two game clubs I'm in and that I shoot with, myself included, at this stage just want to do our bit of shooting and leave the politics and ****e out of it
I agree that splits and such are not good for our sport BUT unfortunately it is evident in all the shooting organisations except the VCRAI :P (nudge, nudge RRPC), which hopefully will last.
I'll list a few organisations that haven't had any splits that I know of:
NASRPC
NTSA
UCESSA
NITSA
NRAI
Evan this current one that's the topic of this thread is more a case of a few people trying to cause a problem where none exists. The ICPSA is a very well organised and focussed organisation that's held in very high regard both here and internationally. It's record of achievment is excellent.0 -
bunny shooter wrote: »JW I know what your saying and I understand and it pisses me off also but there are always two sides to every story.
Recently in South Tipp there was a similar fiasco within the NARGC which you may have heard of. Most lads in the two game clubs I'm in and that I shoot with, myself included, at this stage just want to do our bit of shooting and leave the politics and ****e out of it
I agree that splits and such are not good for our sport BUT unfortunately it is evident in all the shooting organisations except the VCRAI :P (nudge, nudge RRPC), which hopefully will last.
you have to understand the door was open to these people to come back to the icpsa ,that they did not want that .
they have tried everything and every one to ruin the icpsa and the sport from the sports council to fitasc in europe etc .
there is not to many at this stage that have not got a solicitors letter off them .
there a dead duck ,pun intended ,as they have pissed off the wrong people nationally and internationally .
there is going to be a hefty bill at the end of all this ,it will be interesting to see who they will leave above ground as they scramble under the nearest rock .0 -
Huh? What? I was asleep there for a while until you nudged me awake
I'll list a few organisations that haven't had any splits that I know of:
NASRPC
NTSA
UCESSA
NITSA
NRAI
Evan this current one that's the topic of this thread is more a case of a few people trying to cause a problem where none exists. The ICPSA is a very well organised and focussed organisation that's held in very high regard both here and internationally. It's record of acheivment is excellent.
To reiterate and correct myself certain amounts of dissenssion and/or splits is/are evident in all/some shooting organisations It would be silly to assume that everyone in every organisation agrees all the time ............... 0 -
you have to understand the door was open to these people to come back to the icpsa ,that they did not want that .
they have tried everything and every one to ruin the icpsa and the sport from the sports council to fitasc in europe etc .
there is not to many at this stage that have not got a solicitors letter off them .
there a dead duck ,pun intended ,as they have pissed off the wrong people nationally and internationally .
there is going to be a hefty bill at the end of all this ,it will be interesting to see who they will leave above ground as they scramble under the nearest rock .
JW this is a sad state of affairs tbh.
BUT it is human nature and especially Irish human nature unfortunately :rolleyes:
Well at least a few solicitors are being kept in the lifestyle they are accustomed to as the conveyancing work has dried up 0 -
Dissention is normal and healthy in an organisation. If there wasn't differences of opinion it wouldn't be a very vibrant organisation.bunny shooter wrote: »To reiterate and correct myself certain amounts of dissenssion and/or splits is/are evident in all shooting organisations It would be silly to assume that everyone in every organisation agrees all the time ...............
It's how you deal with these that's the challenge and if they're dealt with properly, the organisation is strengthened.
This outfit we're talking about in the original topic appears purely destructive. It should get no support whatsoever.0 -
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........If somebody set up an alternative Vintage and Classic shoot to the VCRAI, everyone who attended would be taking much needed funds from the VCRAI and putting it in somebody elses pockets.
In the long run, effort is diluted and the sport suffers.
LRRAI recently ran a Classic rifle shoot in addition to their F-Class shoot. Unfortunately, I couldn't attend but I would have if I could. VCRAI actively promoted this event to it's members which is the way it should be.
At the latest VCRAI shoot there were members of numerous clubs & ranges participating. I and many of the VCRAI members are members of other shooting associations, ranges & clubs too. So where is the dilution? As an example, I am hopefully moving into ISSF style pistol and rifle shooting soon and as you know RRPC a few years ago I would have laughed at the prospect :P I will still shoot VCRAI events and all the other things I do including occasionally clays although not as a registered ICPSA shooter 0 -
There's a difference between a club running an event under the auspices of its governing body and one being run in opposition to it. That's the dilution. Having clubs running events like that is a good thing because it widens the base for the sport and brings in new members.bunny shooter wrote: »LRRAI recently ran a Classic rifle shoot in addition to their F-Class shoot. Unfortunately, I couldn't attend but I would have if I could. VCRAI actively promoted this event to it's members which is the way it should be.
At the latest VCRAI shoot there were members of numerous clubs & ranges participating. I and many of the VCRAI members are members of other shooting associations, ranges & clubs too. So where is the dilution? As an example, I am hopefully moving into ISSF style pistol and rifle shooting soon and as you know RRPC a few years ago I would have laughed at the prospect :P I will still shoot VCRAI events and all the other things I do including occasionally clays although not as a registered ICPSA shooter
And that's also why I'm happy that you're taking an interest in ISSF rifle/pistol. The more the merrier
AFAIK, you don't have to be a registered ICPSA member to take part in ICPSA events, the same as you don't have to be an NTSA member to take part in an ISSF competition in Rathdrum or Wilkinstown or Midlands etc.0 -
There's a difference between a club running an event under the auspices of its governing body and one being run in opposition to it. That's the dilution. Having clubs running events like that is a good thing because it widens the base for the sport and brings in new members.
The LRRAI event could be seen to be in oppsoition in the same way this new clay organisation are running shoots?And that's also why I'm happy that you're taking an interest in ISSF rifle/pistol. The more the merrier
Sure as my dad says "We're all the same band of tinkers"AFAIK, you don't have to be a registered ICPSA member to take part in ICPSA events, the same as you don't have to be an NTSA member to take part in an ISSF competition in Rathdrum or Wilkinstown or Midlands etc.
Having been a member previously of the ICPSA I think I have to join or I can't shoot in their comps unless I rejoin. I think there is a rule that you can only shoot 3 x times without being a paid up member also?
Would I have to be an NTSA member to shoot in an NTSA comp?0 -
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Red herring or not, the sports you mention have an early retirement age from participation which creates a vacuum which is filled by organisational work. Shooting does not have that.
And when someone mentions fees, everyone runs. On this thread alone we have a complaint about a measly €130 when any of your sailing/golf etc. clubs would be expecting that per month!
Read back what I've said about funding being chicken and egg. The sports that get the funding have already proven they don't need it, much like the bank will lend you money when you don't need it either. It doesn't matter what the structures are, the willingness to spend money on it is non-existent.
Read a few threads here, do a search, you'll see what I mean :rolleyes:
You actually don't know what you're talking about here and you certainly don't seem to understand the roles of either organisation.
Have a guess who RISEs biggest contributors were? Michael O'Leary was one of them. No problem with a budget when you've that kind of clout behind you.
You really don't have a clue.
Quite right, I've no clue, in my last post above I said << No disrespect intended to you rrpc, but I’m not going to get involved in a fight about the merits/demerits of what appears to be a faction fight the background to which I have neither interest in nor notion of. Usually this type of row is between a few poxy egos that drive others (i.e. sane mortals) away.>>
No doubt you know it all and have successfully obtained grant allocations for your business. As for my comment on driving others away, half of the last dozen or so posts were yours.......
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Yet you seem to be able to pass judgment nontheless :rolleyes:pedroeibar1 wrote: »Quite right, I've no clue, in my last post above I said << No disrespect intended to you rrpc, but I’m not going to get involved in a fight about the merits/demerits of what appears to be a faction fight the background to which I have neither interest in nor notion of. Usually this type of row is between a few poxy egos that drive others (i.e. sane mortals) away.>>
And just for the record, I'm not a member of the ICPSA and never have been.
Replace business with club and you'd be rightNo doubt you know it all and have successfully obtained grant allocations for your business.
Perhaps you need to be reminded that we're talking about sport here, not business. PR for business is a straightforward transaction involving cash to get the message to the potential customer. PR for sport does not have that direct relationship with a consumer and has no end product to sell that's either quantifiable or measurable.
You set great store by RISEs campaign, yet shortly after the bills were passed, Fintan O'Toole wrote an article that was lauded to the heights by his media colleagues in which he put the whole movement down to the actions of a few rural TD's who cynically manufactured the situation to try and distance themselves from Government decisions and increase their popularity. :rolleyes:0 -
Yet you seem to be able to pass judgment nontheless :rolleyes:
And just for the record, I'm not a member of the ICPSA and never have been.
Replace business with club and you'd be right
Perhaps you need to be reminded that we're talking about sport here, not business. PR for business is a straightforward transaction involving cash to get the message to the potential customer. PR for sport does not have that direct relationship with a consumer and has no end product to sell that's either quantifiable or measurable.
You set great store by RISEs campaign, yet shortly after the bills were passed, Fintan O'Toole wrote an article that was lauded to the heights by his media colleagues in which he put the whole movement down to the actions of a few rural TD's who cynically manufactured the situation to try and distance themselves from Government decisions and increase their popularity. :rolleyes:
You are up early this morning RRPC, A club has an end product.
Money in the Kitty!
Without a Club taking in money bills are not paid and in a short time club falls into disarray.....
The success of a club is generally measured by how solvent it is.
Not by how much medals they have
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I think you've missed my point entirely Tack. We're talking about sport, not individual clubs. And PR has very little to do with a club's income which is derived from membership subs and competition entry fees. Both of which are taken care of without recourse to mass media.Tackleberrywho wrote: »You are up early this morning RRPC, A club has an end product.
Money in the Kitty!
Without a Club taking in money bills are not paid and in a short time club falls into disarray.....
The success of a club is generally measured by how solvent it is.
Not by how much medals they have
That's not to say that general PR for the sport won't help clubs, but it's a very difficult and non-linear relationship unlike advertising a product or service.
In fact I would suggest that the success of a sport in media terms comes after success in the field and with the general public rather than the other way around. The media are not interested until there's a story and there are many cases that illustrate this: Kenny Egan was largely unknown outside his own sport (even though he had won four EU amateur medals and a European Championships Bronze) until he won his silver medal in Beijing after which followed an absolute media frenzy. Provincial rugby (and in particular the Celtic League) was ignored by mainstream television until its popularity as evidenced by large attendances generated interest from the bigger players in the market. Only for the fact that Gerald Siggins was a cricketer himself there would have been absolutely zero coverage of Irish cricket in the national newspapers, the list is endless and depressing.0 -
I think you've missed my point entirely Tack. We're talking about sport, not individual clubs. And PR has very little to do with a club's income which is derived from membership subs and competition entry fees. Both of which are taken care of without recourse to mass media.
That's not to say that general PR for the sport won't help clubs, but it's a very difficult and non-linear relationship unlike advertising a product or service.
In fact I would suggest that the success of a sport in media terms comes after success in the field and with the general public rather than the other way around. The media are not interested until there's a story and there are many cases that illustrate this: Kenny Egan was largely unknown outside his own sport (even though he had won four EU amateur medals and a European Championships Bronze) until he won his silver medal in Beijing after which followed an absolute media frenzy. Provincial rugby (and in particular the Celtic League) was ignored by mainstream television until its popularity as evidenced by large attendances generated interest from the bigger players in the market. Only for the fact that Gerald Siggins was a cricketer himself there would have been absolutely zero coverage of Irish cricket in the national newspapers, the list is endless and depressing.
We have Some of the best F-Class in the world, with the Medals to prove it.
yet No RTE sport Weekly coverage, not even T ná Gee Coverage;)
Boxing has got a lot of air time on RTE recently.
From th eClones Cyclone, to Curruth & Collins; long before Kenny Egan or any of the Joyces
You can turn on the box and watch tubernabudgee play ballyhupahaun in U12 Hurling on T ná Gee any time you want!0 -
That's hardly recently and it's still success first and coverage later. To be fair to RTE, their commentators were completely bemused by the hoopla over Kenny Egan and commented that he was hardly an overnight sensation having proved himself many times over the previous three years.Tackleberrywho wrote: »We have Some of the best F-Class in the world, with the Medals to prove it.
yet No RTE sport Weekly coverage, not even T ná Gee Coverage;)
Boxing has got a lot of air time on RTE recently.
From th eClones Cyclone, to Curruth & Collins; long before Kenny Egan or any of the Joyces
As for the F-Class success, there's a story and yet no coverage proving that even when you do have a story, the media don't believe there's an audience for it.
And you're just proving my point. Gaelic games already has a huge following in this country, so it's a no-brainer that you'll get viewers if you broadcast matches.You can turn on the box and watch tubernabudgee play ballyhupahaun in U12 Hurling on T ná Gee any time you want!0 -
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Yet you seem to be able to pass judgment nontheless :rolleyes:
And just for the record, I'm not a member of the ICPSA and never have been.
Replace business with club and you'd be right
Perhaps you need to be reminded that we're talking about sport here, not business. PR for business is a straightforward transaction involving cash to get the message to the potential customer. PR for sport does not have that direct relationship with a consumer and has no end product to sell that's either quantifiable or measurable.
You set great store by RISEs campaign, yet shortly after the bills were passed, Fintan O'Toole wrote an article that was lauded to the heights by his media colleagues in which he put the whole movement down to the actions of a few rural TD's who cynically manufactured the situation to try and distance themselves from Government decisions and increase their popularity. :rolleyes:
Fintan O’Toole is an opinionated lefty twit who often is wrong and is not near as important as he thinks he is. If, as you say, other media twats toady up to him, let them. The shooting population should be concentrating on contacts with journalists that meet the criteria of their profession and are not self-opinionated social commentators with personal agendas.
Sport IS a business, which is why the more popular sports are successful – they are run as businesses. I know this has gone slightly off topic, but the thrust of my argument is that shooting does not have a fraternity; it has a cluster of self-serving entities that for their own ends (egos?) continue to fragment the various sports and not only do they do their task poorly, they also do a disservice to the hobby(ies) as a whole.
A club has to be viewed as a business – it will not survive as a club unless it retains existing and continuously attracts new members. It must have an excess of income over outgoings(i.e.profit) to build a fund to re-invest in its depreciating assets. PR is a significant means of helping to achieve those ends. PR should be internal – to update members on what has / is /will happen in club circles (to reinforce ties within the club’s membership) and external, to inform potential members or influencers of what the club is doing and stands for. The PR that exists for Shooting is rubbish at club level and often not much better at representative body level.
Google rrpc and up comes Rathdrum Rifle & Pistol Club, yet www.rrpc.ie does not exist. Simple marketing/PR tool would be to register rrpc.ie and have it linked to your own club site to divert enquiry traffic. George Digweed was mentioned above – in the last two months he has put eight updates on his website. Under “Latest News” on the Rathdrum club site, the most recent item is almost a year old - 7 September 2009.
Now, for more examples of great PR, just look at the NARGC website “News” tab under which it has a notice “No content submitted.” Furthermore, the main page it shows logo of a woodcock, a photo of a stalker with rifle and intro of “On behalf of the NARGC, I welcome you to our Website. The site contains topics of interest to shooting sportsmen and sportswomen everywhere and I hope you find it informative and helpful.” It then goes on for paragraphs to talk about conservation and its importance under the banner of PROMOTING AND CONSERVING IRELAND'S WILDLIFE. Now if that is not a mixed, confused message what is?
In past praise for RISE, I am pointing out the amount of positive coverage and media exposure they got in the recent campaign. Yes, they did not win a particular battle, but they put up a very good show and got a clear message across in a very professional way to a new audience. Something the combined clubs/associations have not managed to do for all their yapping.
See what I mean ??
P.
PS In case you think otherwise, my only shooting membership is CAI.0
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